If the ancient Romans didn't use their dodecahedrons for ciphering codes, then they certainly should've! Your excellent detective work has utterly convinced me. Well done, and thanks for posting the video.
Not a single one found in Rome or current day Italy, they were unlikely to be Roman. If coding was a big thing then most should have emanated from the source of military power, Rome.
@@RU-vidr-k2p It is unlikely a military messenger travelling in Rome or other friendly territory would be intercepted by barbarians, hence no need for ciphers. If you watch the video this was explained.
@@bobcousins4810 Possibly true, but the Romans were famous plotters. More than one Legion commander in the back of nowhere became Emperor! Keeping political shenanigans and business secrets private would be huge business. Remember that the German Enigma machine was originally marketted as a business tool.
It is convincing but not conclusive. Certainly plausible but not certainly proven. I am not saying Mr. Geevan is wrong, just that there may be other theories equally plausible and we don't have a smoking gun.
I've heard many theories about these dodecahedrons and this is by far the most compelling. You seemed to tie up all the possible loose ends and it all makes sense in context of the Roman world of the time. I really appreciate all the hard work you've done to both investigate and present your ideas!
many thanks for your feedback Matthew, your comments are much appreciated. I have just tried to follow the evidence of what we know, and this is what I've concluded. Cheers Matt
Could be that, it does work, but does not explain why you need a dodecahedron ? Two disks doing the same things could be used for the same purpose. The romans had need for secure communications all over the empire not just in the north. I like the glove making device theory too, because it explains the localisation up north . You wear whool gloves where it is cold.
Just like with the knitting theory, the biggest issue is overengineering of the device. A set of pentagon plates is orders of magnitude easier to manufacture and would achieve the same goal without limiting the users to a set of 12 encoding discs. Hexagonal plates are even more straightforward to manufacture and would only make the cipher stronger in case of longer messages.
@@philippe94416 The dodecahedron gives a compact but non obvious way to encode which wheel was to be used based on the choice of which hole pair is up/down.
Kudos! excellent problem solving approach and delightfully clear explanation which gracefully covered so many details of the object and how it would work so well in your hypothesis - so many of the practical matters of its use for cryptography (resistance to compromise, need for rapid destruction in extremis, simplicity and robustness) fell into place as you proceeded, I found myself gleefully following your explanation by the end. Hope you get credit for “breaking the code” on this (publish a paper if you can, or do the equivalent with your video - and copyright it). Best.
thanks for your reply - I don't think that they were mass produced, but in batches to serve the requirements. We don't know how many have been made, we only know how many have been found. The idea is that they are not all the same - only the ones within a communication group are the same.
They did find quite a few of em and all over the place, but it would make sense if only certain people had them and different shape and size different codes?
The explanation was interesting and the intuition that led you to develop this theory was brilliant and ingenious. In Italy they tell us that engineers have little imagination but you are proof that we are not all like that. I have a little difficulty imagining the lost wax pattern used to create the dodecahedron but I know that European craftsmen of the 1st century BC were capable of reproducing wonders in copper alloy
Great video, and by far the most convincing explanation out there. However, I would be interested to hear what was the process that led you to your conclusions. What made you think of wheels, and what led you to decide that there were two null fields ? Particularly, why did you start considered it a coding mechanism at all ?
Hi Barry, I'm thinking of doing producing another video covering my theory concept, so I'll keep you posted on that ! My thinking about the two null fields is that I concluded that the Classical Latin Alphabet was used during this period in time , which has only 23 letters (no J,U or W) and the stepping of the code wheel or rotor, has 5 steps (Modulo 5) 23 divided by 23 is not clean, so I simply added two nulls to make 25 coded characters which is divisible by 5 so the system can work. Cheers Matt
Whether it's these things, or the Great Pyramid, no matter what mystery it is; there's always going to be some tradie or engineer nobody ever heard of who figured it out.
This is an intriguing theory that shouldn't be dismissed right away. There are still quite a few open questions though and not anywhere near enough evidence to draw a firm conclusion. --- Why do we believe they are Roman? The distribution suggests they are Celtic and Germanic artifacts. This could explain why they aren't mentioned in Roman texts and why they come in different sizes. The Romans were sticklers for standardisation and and a code engine is something they definitely would want to standardise (they could always change the code by replacing the wheels). Not so with the Celtic and Germanic people, each tribe would have its own unique system. --- There is also the mystery of the ones found in East Asia long the Maritime Silk Road. The fact that they are found along a trade route makes sense. Merchants would often want to send secret messages too. The fact that there are two separate sets of finds so far apart geographically is harder to explain but that is regardless of what their use was. The big issue here is that the East Asian dodecahedrons are made of gold. That's not a good material for a utilitarian object like a code engine. Not only is gold expensive, it's also very soft and easily bent out of shape.
A very interesting idea - but I think the encryption system could work well enough without the dodecahedron - which is just a very elaborate and expensive way to tell the recipient which decoding wheel to use. The wheels could simply be given numbers (I think the Enigma wheels were identified by Roman numerals!) and the required wheel number could be be stamped on the wax seal. Someone in possession of a set of wheels but without the dodecahedron could easily decode the message by trying each wheel in turn.
Good argument. But in a military context, time is essential and a device to speed up the decoding process could be useful. Also it is easier to break the code if the number of the code wheel was known to the enemy. But measuring the size of the wheel by looking at the seal is much more difficult.
@@ratatoskr1069 Yes - but you only need to decode a few characters to know if you have the right wheel or not - it would not take long to find the correct wheel.
I do not think the dodecahedrons were for coding even though they work in the video. It would be awesome to find a description of their use in an ancient text somewhere, which I think is the only way to settle this mystery.
From my military time , this makes more sense.with all the facts of location found ,size,shape and other factors makes the most sense of all the other theories. Very logical
My daughter and I were watching another video on ancient curiosities and this object came up. We came up with a few of our own hypothesis about it and then were curious what other people had come up with and stumbled across your video and were absolutely tickled with it- thank you so much for sharing this! You're a very clever gentleman! A question my daughter had about your theory is that we saw a few that were much larger in size- going along with your theory- I suggested that perhaps the larger ones were for the most important people whom had the misfortune of poor eyesight. There were no eyeglasses in those times- a larger one would allow for larger print.
It could be that the dodecahedrons were made in batches. The XII Legion might commission a batch with certain dimensions strictly for internal official use. The IV Legion would do the same. The Governor of a province might have a batch for contacting the legion commanders, contractors supplying the legions, spies, etc. This would explain variations in the devices quite easily. An analysis of the various sizes of units found and their locations could give a hint as to the extent of each of these ancient communications networks. If a unit in Rome is found to be absolutely identical to one in Vindolanda, then we might surmise that a Roman official was in personal contact with someone in the fort. I wonder if these devices show any sign of being mass produced in identical batches?
I think you are right. Bureaucrats, merchants, military, nobility and who knows how many more.. If the were all made the same size a merchant could read a military message and so on.
This is my favorite theory. I especially like the wax seal box. That said, some of these objects are said to be as big as a baseball. That seems a bit big for something made of bronze to take to far off battle and then to use as a wax seal? Theyd need to have an equally large cypher wheel to protect. And Rome would need a dodecahedron identical in construction to theirs.
Thanks Christopher for considering my theory - yes all the Dodecahedrons in a communication network would have to be identical. It is possible that a Legate, or Commander of a Legion may have had an additional, separate Dodecahedron with which to communicate with Rome. Cheers Matt
I'm thinking these would Not be used during a battle but during a campaign ....knowing the Romans there would be an officer in charge of this equipment and well practiced in its use
@@Matt.Geevan Yeah, the size could be an indicator off its importance, for instance communications between legion commanders and the emperor could be baseball size, while centurions could use smaller ones in the field to communicate with their leaders, that where easier to carry & conceal & destroy on capture. Legion to legion communication could be middle size etc. A bit like international dialling codes (largest) vs city dialling codes (mediums) vs local (smallest). They could also be a hint as to the origin of the message, for instance if I am the leader of four legions, I would give every legion commander a different size.
Brilliant! Thank you for producing this. I used to use codes in combat during the 1960s but had never heard of this until yesterday, and now of course your very good explanation.
@@frontenac5083 Actually it makes perfect sense. Not real sure where you think he went off the tracks. You are also rather insulting and condescending. Also love the counter argument of "Nuhhh uuuhh".
@@associatedblacksheepandmisfits thanks for your reply. I am not sure whether or not it would apply to the icosahedron, but a small number of my commentators believe that it would.
Your thesis makes sense to me. Im impressed at your out of the box thinking that put the dodecahedra in context and provide the other, missing parts of the puzzle. It would be possible to double or triple encode messages, or indeed, to advance the wheel after every letter. For this hypothesis to work, each person in a code network would require identical copies of a dodecahedron. As far as I understand matters, no two that have been found are the same.
thanks for your reply - yes you could advance the wheel after every letter to make it more complex. People would need identical dodecahedrons on the same code network. It would be great to find two identical dodecahedrons !
@@Matt.Geevan Which is unlikely due to the practice being secret by design. It would also be advisable by the user of the system to make as few identical dodecahedrons as possible. Note that identical pieces of equipment come from industrial mass production, even then it is rare to find two identical ancient objects. But this item is the antithesis of industrial mass production, hence the chance of finding two identical ones are minimal.
Would the decoder ring really need to be the same size? Without going into the dreaded realm of math to figure it out for myself.... As long as the disk ratios are the same, shouldn't it still work? Also... what about tolerance? Imagine one disk having larger segments to account for the fact it is smaller.... or bigger, again, not doing the math here!
I don't think it is necessary for them to be of the same size. Probably older commanders, having presbyopia, wanted larger letter discs, and hence larger dodecahedra. What needs to be the same is relative position of corresponding openings on the device, and their number of outer rings, which supposedly uniquely enumerates/identifies the side on dodecahedron which left the imprint on wax seal. Each communicating station (commander) needs to have coding/decoding wheels with same sequences of signs and pegs matching corresponding openings on their own dodecahedron.
Explain the logic of something supposedly Roman but never found in Rome or Italy. 130 in northern France area and 3 from Britain. One on the Silk Road with no holes on the road to China, it was gold. A 20 sided one without holes. Not necessarily found with military camps, this was overstated in the video, some in graves, many with hoards of coins.
By far the most interesting theory about these objects. You certainly addressed all the observations surrounding these objects. It would be great if wooden cipher wheels or tablets would be found to give further credence to the theory.
Here is some of the evidence you are looking for :- ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-w87I-sRGtDY.html and here is the the evidence that supports that :- ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-U1amilJffaU.html
I think you have an amazing imagination and are intelligent. But I believe your unfortunately wrong. Because there have been other designed where this theory wouldn't work. And I believe there would be easier ways to do something similar.
No flaws? He didn't explain why they bothered to make it a dodecahedron. He said why instead of other shapes but why make it a polygon at all, there's no need with this explanation. To much complexity for no gain is a pretty big red flag.
There is a flaw: the wax seal it’s too much sensibile to heat or random bumps so if the message would have been delivered with a damaged wax seal, there would have no way to decypher the text. Anyway, very interesting.
This is the only theory I have ever seen elaborated on and it's very convincing. Well done. It could be regarded as an early fore-runner of an Enigma machine. The only complication I can think of (although I don't think it invalidates your theory), is that there are also examples of similarly constructed icosahedrons, which have triangular sides each of which has a hole in the middle surrounded by a triangular arrangement of three holes. Some of these central holes are very small indeed and don't seem to have any variation in size. Maybe these icosahedrons had a completely different use from the dodecahedrons, but do you think there is any way they could be incorporated into your cryptography theory, or can you think of any other explanation?
thanks @random_person347 your question which is really interesting ! I don't think that the icosahedrons have anything to do with my coding system theory, because of their difficulty in manufacture, they would only offer a 'modulo 3' shift instead of the 'modulo 5' shift that the Dodecahedron offers, and I agree with you that the icosahedrons had a totally different use. Cheers Matt
The main objection to your theory I can think of, as far as I know, is that there might be no uniformity between the examples that have been found in terms of the sizes of holes. Is it possible to check this from information that is publicly available?
Unfortunately, this is information that I've not been able to obtain as the sources of detailed measurements are probably not available to the general public for some reason.
This was a fantastic video. I have waited for years to find out what the dodecahedron was used for and this to me completely explains the reason there’s no text on it. There’s no references to it and why it is such a clean object found. Thank you for this information. It has been the last piece of puzzle in the picture.
Congratulations! After a few hundred years, you are the first to figure out the actual use. Your demonstration and answers to the common questions were totally convincing.
It is a theory. One full of holes. None have been found in Rome or even Italy! They are not Roman. Most coding would have been emanating from Rome I would have thought. Lots have been found with coin hoards and nothing to do with military outposts.
@Pax.Alotin Actually it seems pretty darn compelling to me. I believe he has solved it. EVERYTHING does seem to line up very nicely with every question answered and accounted for.
It is a logical idea 💡 with materials explanation, but they have been found in multiple sizes so far. This means not one size fits all. Either it means specialisation if the holes are not universal or they were not consistent, which would be counter productive for general use. It was speculated they were not Roman in origin so may be locally made with Celtic metal working heritage. The Romans either used an existing technology or commissioned it, or they were there before. Expensive, so a game, a reward, a religious item, a design piece, or as suggested logically here, a cypher system? I would be more interested in the manufacture process? Mass cast produced or parts piece by piece braised together. Might help understand the frequency of use or origin, including of the metal which might also reveal the smelting location.
This is one of the more substantiated theories I've seen in regards to the Roman dodecahedrons. However, I'm far from convinced. As some have pointed out, the found dodecahedrons aren't uniform in shape, size and size of the holes, I wonder do they have to be? They aren't used like the enigma cipher kogs, it only needs to fit the disks it was made to fit when it was made. Instead of having entire sets of wheels to be made and sent out for all parties like Germany did for the enigma. Instead it might be a much more exclusive cipher where discs weren't made obsolete. Then as long as the letters on the discs match positions on both ends of communication it will work no matter the size difference of dodecahedrons and discs. Please correct me if I'm wrong
Very clever... very clever... My biggest gripe here is that if this was a military secret, why have we found so many and in such diverse contexts? We've found these things carelessly thrown away with broken pottery. Nor would a military secret be a burial good. You'd give it to the new decoder, or melt it down so that spies couldn't recover it. I think we'd also expect to see it more evenly distributed across the Roman Empire. Surely a encryption system like this would have been very useful on the eastern border with Persia! The fact that we don't have any surviving records of them is not really a mystery that warrants an explanation, imo. Also, this answer seems to lack a explanation for the icosahedron with its many tiny holes. Anyhow, I enjoyed this video. This explanation was wickedly clever, so big props for that. Cheers from the other side of the pond!
Thanks very much for your detailed reply, @Imperiused ! I wasn't offering an explanation for the icosahedron, but I will consider your comments. Cheers Matt
What happens to the thing if its owner dies and he was the only one around who knows what its for? I would think it either gets confiscated by his replacement or else..
The obvious problem with your hypothesis is that there is no standard set of hole sizes in known Roman dodecahedrons (or for that matter in the size of the dodecahedrons). Standard sizes would be needed for the cryptographic scheme you describe to work.
I was looking for a comment that would mention this, and here it is... You are absolutely correct and that's why I don't believe that the hypothesis presented in this video is correct. Saying "all we need to find are two Dodecahedrons that are alike" is all but admitting that this video is nothing more than wishful thinking, albeit quite clever wishful thinking. There are also several other problems with this hypothesis, but others in this comment section have addressed most of them.
@@Matt.Geevan I disagree. I would argue that very varied dodecahedrons are features of the system, not bugs. You would want as few identical ones as possible. Ideally you would want just one pair to be completely sure only your peer can decipher the message. One network should have as few participants as possible. A General would want to use one design of dodecahedron for communication with Rome, and anpother one for communication with other commanders. If the item is too standardized, the system looses reliability. The fact that all found dodecahedrons are completely different in shape supports the proposed theorey of encryption device very well. Even that 20-sided item that was found, with the tiny holes, could just be an even more complex iteration of the theory you put forward. Imagin the other way around: If it was the case, that dodecahedrons were commonly found to be of identical shape, like types of pottery vessels, we might look simply at a decorative object of originally polished bronze. We would be more likely in candle holder land. That the opposite is the case, supports your theory.
No, I don't think that is necessarily true at all. For instance, if you double the size of the dodecahedron, then no, the code wheels from the original won't fit on the larger one... But if you have double size code wheels for the larger "decoder", then all you need to do is apply a ratio on the impression of the hole in the wax seal. It would be no problem to put a caliber/slide rule on that, and then multiply it by two(or suitable ratio) - viola, you have the correct "sized" wheel. It is the sequence of the letters on the wheel which is the secret - not the size of the wheel axil that is used. Or even more simply... have wheels numbered 1-9, and have some way of encoding which sized wheel you used. The code on the wheels is the critical thing - and could even be effectively used as "one-time-cyphers". Many possibilities to making it work.
Different sizes dodecahedrons doesn't really undermine the theory at all. It just means the corresponding wheels were also different sizes. More than likely just different code networks, probably at much different times. Miniaturizing technology is nothing new.
Dear Matt. I am very happy that the RU-vid algorithm suggested this video to me. I knew about the dodecahedron, but never thought about it very much. Your approach explains everything I had on mind. I must say that your hypothesis is very intriguing and I highly support it. I am aware that I might experience a bookcase example of confirmation bias, but the way you explained and showed your hypothesis was really convincing and simply makes sense however I look at it. I hope your findings will be analyzed by experts in various fields and your work will be scrutinized and confirmed as the most plausible explanation we have as of 2024. I have deep respect for you, as you managed not only to figure it out, but also create a video of this quality and make it publicly available. Hats off to you! You have my deepest respect. As said previously, I must also acknowledge the mysterious ways of the RU-vid algorithm, that suggested this video to me. I am very grateful that I had a chance to see it. When it comes to likes, I am very hesitant to like a video. This one is only the 2nd or 3rd video this year to receive a like from me. And it is a very well deserved one. I treat my thumbs up as a very valuable resource, that only really great videos get. Dear Mr. Matt Geevan, I am pleased to give a like to this video you made. Best wishes, Erik. It was a pleasure to watch this video and a privilege to leave this comment.
interesting notion and it would work but not convinced. to use them you would need a complete set of all of the dowels plus both disks for each face plus the dodecahedron on both ends, sender and receiver. the dodecahedrons that have been found come in various sizes and not too many have been recovered. you'd need a decent sized box to contain all of these items which if captured spoils everything. What military commander is going to drag that around with them? Seems that there would also be some historical documentation of them plus the fact that most people of this time period couldn't read at all let alone foreigners reading latin so not much need for codes although not completely unnecessary. If they used coded messages at all they more than likely would have just used scytales.Perhaps, though, they are part of this system.
Thanks for your reply jayka. To be a minimum user, you would only need the Dodecahedron, the Plaintext wheel and one code wheel. Other code wheels would be issued to users as the need dictated. Even if the box was the size of say a small microwave, there would be no problem transporting this along with the tents, carpets, furniture, beds and chairs used by the officer classes. Someone intent on accessing the code and trying to break it, would obviously have access to someone adept in reading Latin, I think. I understand that a scytale is a transposition cipher, where all the actual letters of the message are present on the belt and are limited to small messages, these were okay for the ancient Greek era. Cheers
@@Matt.Geevan The scytale rquired the same diameter stick to wrap the message around. I thought that's where you were going, that the holes would be the measure of the stick, but how would they tell which hole. I think maybe they only had a certain number of sticks, and just tried each one till a coherent message came up.
@@lubumbashi6666 You do need the object to determine the size of the hole opposite to the size of the seal. This might be where the video is wrong: The disc cylinder size intended to match is not the one that matches the seal, but the one directly opposite to it on top. That way, if all you you have is the letter, its seal and the discs, you still don't know which set of discs to use. The messages might even be short and simple enough to have several false decoy messages decipherable when randomly matching several discs to the letter, even if the decoder knows they should not match the seal.
Absolutely brilliant work! Well done 👏🏻 I was just watching another video on the dodecahedron last night. This is by far the best theory I have heard so far. Good luck with testing it out on the field👍🏻
Interesting theory with at least one drawback. For your theory to work all recipients of coded messages would have to have identical sized dodecahedrons. From what I have read, no two of the found dodecahedrons are even closely matched in size or hole sizes. Have any metal casters tried to cast a dodecahedron? I have done a few small pieces of lost wax casting and would balk at trying to cast something so intricate.
Thanks for your comment, Alan ! Yes - you are correct, the Dodecahedrons have been found in different sizes because, for example, one has been found from 159 AD and another on has been found from say, 259 AD. That is, the two have been found from different series that were made 100 years apart from each other, so we are getting two different 'snapshots' in the historical timeline Yes - metal casters have made dodecahedrons - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-KpTDHYRxklA.html
A very ingenious and cohesive explanation, and hits all the points that need explaining. It stands out as a serious theory, as all others I have seen are seriously weak. Eg. if it was a gambling die, then why not found everywhere. One issue I note with other explanation is that bronze was relatively expensive in Roman times, so items made for mundane uses are not likely to be metal. e.g. candle holders could be made out of clay. If the clay breaks just make a new one. Where there was a need for precision and durability, the military could command such an expense. Also appreciate the references to Enigma and Gladiator :)
Well, first of all, recent research has shown that we now, very seriously, doubt that this is even a Roman device, as we’ve speculated for the last 100 years. It is believed to be a bit older than Roman. Few are still clinging to the old, “it’s Roman” theory.
In my mind, you have solved the mystery. Too many of your points are spot on. This isn’t a tiny coincidence, It’s proof. You have my sincere congratulations 🍾. 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Anyone that disputes your discovery is a prat ….. (Yes, I’m outspoken and get straight to the point.)
Thanks for your reply, Jamie ! I hope you will enjoy my next video that goes live at 13:00hrs UK time today where I will show you the evidence. Cheers Matt
This is an amazingly compelling theory, love it. Although from a security standpoint, wouldn't it make more sense to rotate after every letter instead of word to obscure the spaces between words which could leave context clues in the message. Alternatively rotate after every word and encode the space after the word with it as one of the null characters. In the decoding step you know when to turn when a null/space shows up. Encrypted message would either be one continuous string with two extra characters or have spaces in random intervals that would throw off codebreakers expecting regular rotation cyphers. I also really like the proposed sealing process, this ensures that the message can be easily decrypted only one time during the seal breaking and even if the message gets discovered or captured afterwards with the disk and wheels, its contents are relatively safe. Also the flexibility in establishing private but overlapping communication channels with basically standardized parts is fantastic. A few other commenters mention that the hole distribution is not uniform between finds, but this is more a feature. Identical dodecahedrons will allow full channel communication between these two, but slight variations of the hole orientations allows channel splitting as long as the affected codewheels/diameters are sorted out for communication between the original two.
enjoyed your comments @realMohock, you really grasped what I was trying to convey ! You are of course correct in suggesting that it would be better to rotate after every letter, which would certainly improve the security of the system. I was just trying to keep the process simple, to facilitate 'back-checking' each word after encription and decryption. Really good idea of yours to include the spaces as part of the code also. Thanks Matt
It should be noted that Romans for the most part used SCRIPTIO CONTINUA, so there were no spaces nor interpuncts. Also even modern wheel systems (Enigma, Hagelin, Fialka) don't use spaces as that could affect frequency analysis.
@@TheAlchaemist Yes, that was one of the issues occurring to me. But I think it is a minor detail, especially if the disc is rotated after every letter as suggested above. Both encoding and decoding give continuous text with no spaces, but the Romans were accustomed to reading that.
Congratulations! Great job! ❤ One of dodecahedrons is found in Serbia in 2006. If dating of these instruments are between 2. and 4. century it make sense that there was no need for them in central and eastern parts of empire, because these regions were extra safe. It was period of Illyrian emperors, military emperors and 18 of them were from now days Serbia territory, something like Prussia was for Germany much later, and for example, most of legions in empire were stationed in Balkans, 10 of them, mostly I think because it's central position. There is only one question, why Romans stopped using dodecahedrons, and what replaced it as decipher tool? Cuz soon after the end 4th and begining of 5th century western Roman Empire starts its declining and final fall.
Brilliant. But, may I make a suggested modification: 1. the inserted wheel (the rotor) is shrunk to a pentagon the size of each side, perhaps 5 letters per side. 2. rotors are placed simultaneously on each side. This allows reading across the edge from one wheel to another. One may take a letter on the inner wheel, find the same letter on the outer wheel, then cross to a new face and continue the process several times, perhaps rotating wheels as one goes. This becomes a sort of ancient enigma machine with a very strong encryption (5^12 combos!). Even if the rotors are captured and the techniques are well known the rotors initial settings are still needed. If one held the rotor by its knob while shifting from one edge to the other, thus rotating the rotor, the device is absolutely uncrackable without modern computers. I _think_ if you always go until you are back on the original side, you just need to rotate backwards (or switch hands) to get back the original message, but that would require some experimentation. Wax in the center of the dodecahedreon would perhaps be good to keep the rotors from falling out, especially if a lathed notch was cut out in the rotor knob part that sticks into the center. I have to say, in my mind you have absolutely solved the purpose of these devices. There should be the sound of thousands of historians slapping their heads in "why didn't I think of that?" amazement. Congratulations are certainly in order.
@@Matt.Geevan By the way, I see a number of comments about the icosohedron with people wondering how it fits with your theory. The icosohedron can also be use for encryption in exactly the same way. In the this method outlined above, the encryption is also just as strong or a little stronger (3^20 combos instead of 5^12). I will also note the icosohedron is a dual of the dodecahedron. This means that the points of one correspond to the faces of the other. 12 points on an icosohedron, 20 on a dodecahedron.... In fact, if you take 20 appropriately sized equilateral triangles with punctures in their centers and fit them on the knobs of your device it will become an icosoheron. Also 12 pentagons with holes in the middle would fit on the icosohedron to build a dodecahedron. so with just a few small cut pieces of thin wood or card stock they are equivalent.
Really interesting Michael ! I wondered how the two solids could be related ! any chance you could send me a picture or simple sketch of what you are thinking ? my email address is matt.gevan@aol.com Cheers Matt
Great hypothesis! I had wondered if they might have been used as a communication device but such a use would require both the sender and receiver to have identical dodecahedra - and identical sets of discs. As these objects are being found in different sizes though, I have my doubts as to their use as an encryption device. Unless identical pairs are found then I'm afraid we need to keep thinking... One initial thought I had was to do with numbers. Calculation of base 12 maths for bean-counters perhaps. I kind of ancient calculator. Or even some kind of calendar device for accurately calculating certain religious events. I would also add that messages in Latin would have had very few double letters to worry about, if any, as certainly abbreviated Latin would have been used there. I do love this singular work you have put into decoding this mystery though! If these dodecahedra weren't used to encrypt messages, then you have definitely discovered such a potential use for them.
A very convincing theory. It sneaks ahead of the knitting/rope/ intricate jewelry theory. Maybe it was a type of early multi-tool? Who knows? But you go to the top of the list with your theory for sure. Glad that there are some clever people out there giving things like this some serious thought. My theory was that it is the ideal object to throw at somebody's head if they are annoying you, lol! Hopefully archaeological evidence will one day prove you right.
I would guess A Roman general would have contracted for many identical dodecahedrons to be made for use by all his outposts. Otherwise complications arise. Are any dodecahedrons found in different outposts identical? (If so,this is another piece of evidence confirming your theory).
That's great Doug - you've really grasped the concept. I'm afraid that we don't know for sure about the detail of the finds as no one has assembled all the data to conclude this.
I like your analysis and find it compelling. The military usage makes a lot of sense. If the Roman church had used these I would expect some to turn up in Vatican or cathedral archives.
I posted this on Paul Whitewick's channel before seeing yours. I agreee with you. For the interested. I gave ChatGPT a description without context. I told it the object was being introduced in a novel i was writing and to guess its use. Based off this and watching your video, my guess would be military use. Possibly ancient encryption and decryption device. This use would explain why there is few of them and no mentions of them in contemporary writing. This would be the case for items used for secret military use in modern times. Below is the top 3 guesses by the GPT. "1. Ancient or Alien Communication Device Reasoning: Bronze is a durable metal often used in historical artifacts. The holes and knobs suggest it could be used to transmit or amplify sound or light. As a communication device, it could have been designed to last and withstand various conditions. 2. Scientific Instrument or Measuring Device Reasoning: Bronze is resistant to corrosion, making it ideal for precision instruments that need to endure environmental factors. The holes of varying sizes could be part of a system for measuring sound frequencies, fluid flow, or light refraction. 3. Puzzle or Locking Mechanism Reasoning: The solid construction of bronze adds to the durability and complexity of a puzzle or locking mechanism. The knobs might need to be turned or pressed in a specific sequence to align the holes correctly, functioning as a key to a larger, more intricate lock or device."
@@frontenac5083 I did not say it reasons, but i do agree with you being flawed. Fortunately, I can reason but also my conclusions are always bound to be flawed. So is yours. The nice thing though, AI is really good and recognizing pattern in our language. So utilizing its very expansive neural network and its ability to more reasonably guess which words most likely come next after the detailed description, me as the reasoning body have a stronger starting position in my logic than without. You should bever let your biases limit you, its ok to explore things that you may think are flawed, as long as you bring your power of reasoning with you. Have a nice day. PS: the vast majority of people reasoned its for knitting.....The number one guess by AI is a communication device. Matt Geevans guess is a form of communication. I also agree its most likely designed for use in communications. So, where does that leave the vast majority of people who were allowed context into their reasoning? What i took from AI, was that the knobs, and holes are intentional and necessary. The choice of material is a huge take away. The complexity and skill required in design. From contextual facts of locations and no mention in writings means it was limited to its users and most likely expensive to make. From here we can begin to reason its use.
With a small change it can be a lot more secure: using the dot inside the rhombus as space in the clear text so the encoded characters are written one after the other. That requires to also shuffle the rhombus with a dot. When decoding and finding a space the rotation is done for the next word. Repeated characters can be encoded using the encoding for the asterisk.
So you took 2 circles and rotated them 72 degress...Seems like you don't actually need the Dodecahedron . Where is the use of the device? The sealing part is just useles and the right wheel choice is weird too , much easier to pass a word password and rotate the word to agreed formula only you two know . So I do not see how this is beneficial.
Good points. Also these dodecahedrons haven't been found throughout the Roman empire. Most notably they have never been found in Rome, which would be expected if they were used as hypothesised in this video.
@@humfreee There is also nice theory about it being like a "money counter seal," you would tie string around one side to count the decimal point acooring to number of loops and then put a seal on it, so you would have the exact amout of coins in the chest. But that seems to suffer of same falacy , no need for Dodecahedron with holes to achieve this. Same falcacy as in "finger ring measuring" device.
to be made with the 'lost wax' process a mold would be needed which splits in half to incorporate the clay internal structure (otherwise you would have a solid dodecahedron) This would leave a fine line around it. The clay internal structure could be chiseled out, today we would use special 'green sand'. The holes could be accurately cast from the internal clay dodecahedron by means of cylinders sticking out through to what would be the outside surface, these cylinders would also position the internal clay structure accurately to the outside form. To be accurate the internal structure would need a steel mold to form it. The outside form would be made of a steel mold. This would require very skilled tool makers, probably not beyond the Romans capabilities. Although the mold for the clay internal dodecahedron could be used thousands of times it would be very expensive to make, as would the outside form. Has a contact line of the mold halves been found? A very interesting post of yours which deserves the deliberation of experts.
I'd like to add some further details confirming the technical sophistication of this item's manufacture . Lost Wax casting or investment casting enables a 3D form to be produced in one pour as the copy wax is melted out of the moulded plaster , or similar material into which the wax was immersed leaving the accurate void to be filled . This filling has to be done quickly into a hot mould to prevent 'freezing' of the molten metal . It must flow into every void and expel all the air so sprues and runners and risers and pouring cups are added, in wax, prior to investing . It is a hugely skilled technique to guarantee a complete fill every cast, made more difficult as this thing is relatively thin skeletal monocoque . For this reason alone and anyone who is experienced in investment casting will agree, without modern centrifuges and propane gas torches to keep everything up to temperature , these Roman jobbies are of the very highest standard skill wise and would have been manically expensive to make . This confirms that they are not a casual toy or random art object-- that they had a hugely important function- and without doubt the only organisation with the cash to get these made ,in numbers , was the State . AS a cipher tool with code wheels now lost, its function is so obvious . Why did it take so long to find out ? Are the Geevan's unique ??
@jonviol - I've been really impressed by your extensive research in the subject of the Dodecahedron's manufacturing process ! I totally agree with your conclusion that they could have only been manufactured in quantities by the State. This is a great piece of work - Well Done !
@@Matt.Geevan Yes , not really extensive just recalling 7 years working in the Jewellery Quarter Birmingham mass producing gold and silver objects using investment casting techniques exactly the same as the technique which this almost 2000 y o dodecahedron demonstrates . Every aspect requires a full control of materials and understanding of how heat alters behaviour in manufacturing a final solid object and minimising failed pours- a total waste of all the effort . Making the waxes is so so difficult and historians never seem to grasp its preliminary expenditure of time and think only about the final cast cold finished result. If hundreds of these were produced, most likely as 130 have so far been found so far , we have proof of a large organised system working harmoniously in an intelligent practical environment . Sourcing clean copper, tin , zinc, fluxes, powdered calcium, charcoal and air pumps , waxes and thickeners , hand tools ,saws files etc ,is no different then than today . Scores of people, no phones, delivery vans, electric lights and so on . But we have electricity , silicon rubbers for mould making and high carbon steel for tool making . The deeper I examine this matter the greater is the conviction that we have here an example of State led mass production predating the industrial revolution by at least 1000 years and the how many different trades required to work together for a successful solution to a dedicated need . No art object this, no toy or coin sampler- hugely sophisticated in every possible way . .Jonathan
Why this is an interesting idea and a very clever one as well, i doubt the conclusion very much. Mostly, because if this item would have been a decoder, it would have been found along all the border, not only in the north. Also, why throw it away in a waste dump?
NOT SO FAST! There is at least one glaring flaw with this explanation. No two dodecahedrons were alike. If they had all been produced alike, or even in pairs, I could almost buy into this. But there was no standardization with them. That standardization would have been necessary for this theory to work in the manner described. I suppose a standard numbering system for the holes could have been employed and a means of communicating that key could have allowed an operator with a similar device to effectively decode the message. No wax seal would have been involved, however. But the other flaw with this theory is the wheels. These would have been made out of brass or bronze for the same reason the dodecahedron was metal. The wheels would have been stored with the dodecahedron as a necessary part of the device. You even showed this at the beginning of your demonstration. None have been found. With so many dodecahedrons recovered, surly a decoding wheel should have been recovered by now. I will chalk this one up as an interesting though not very likely theory. Do make more content. You made me think.
OBJECTION OVERRULED, FOR TWO REASONS: (1) You cannot state with certainty that there was no standardisation and thus that "no two dodecahedrons were alike". According to the relevant Wikipedia article, in total, only about 130 Roman bronze dodecahedrons have been found -- in Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Hungary, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Switzerland and the United Kingdom, 33 of them in Roman-occupied parts of Britain. They could easily have been cast in identical pairs, or larger identical sets, using the lost-wax (French: cire perdue) technique, which is very accurate and was widely used in the Mediterranean and Northern Europe since the Bronze Age. As, according to Matt's theory, identical dodecahedrons would be kept in separate locations, this would explain why identical pairs have not yet been found. It's hard to imagine what technique other than lost-wax casting of bronze could have been used. (2) There is no logical reason why the code wheels would have to be made of metal. They could easily have been crafted from flat thin wood, papyrus or parchment (dried animal skin). Such materials would rapidly decompose in damp climates. Finally, your assertion that "a standard numbering system for the holes could have been employed" is illogical, as the use of a wax seal carrying the unique imprint of one face of the dodecahedron, as demonstrated by Matt, makes such a system redundant. The obvious advantage of the wax seal is that the recipient can immediately see that the cassette containing the encoded message that has just been handed to him by a military messenger has not been opened in transit.
@@robst247NOT SO FAST! 1a. Roman dodecahedrons range in size from 4 CM to 11 CM., information from the same Wikipedia article you quoted.There is no standardization of size. There is no standardization of the knob spacing or of the holes. There are comparison photographs and I can say with a degree of certainty from what I can see and from what I've read, that no two have been found to be exactly enough alike for the purpose of locks and keys in wax seals. 1b. Knowing who had which proposed identical unit from some garrison to a recipient out in the field or visa-versa would have been difficult, especially if there are hundreds or thousands of them. I work in logistics. I think the maintenance of this system would have been daunting. Lost and broken parts alone would have been a nightmare. 2. There is no logical reason the dodecahedrons should be made of metal. Matt's argument is for durability. Okay. That stands to reason for the code wheels as well, then. If it was quicker and easier to fabricate the wheels out of wood or ceramic then the same could be said of the dodecahedron itself. Wood is durable enough for this use. Nobody questions wood's durability for axe handles and bows. In fact, it makes more sense to me to make the big parts out of wood and the small parts out of metal or maybe ceramic especially for a military device. The military wants things as cheap as effectively possible. 3. I'm trying to help this theory here. The wax was found inside the dodecahedron, not on the knobs, and is either remnants of the casting process or perhaps from its use as a candle holder. Since the sizes are non-standard, which prohibits their use as a key for an identical lock, these dodecahedrons could still have functioned as decoder rings. The operator would have to know which corresponding face or hole size to use to know which set of code wheels to use. The wax seal is a really thoughtful idea, but not practical in the face of non-standard sizing. 4. And finally, no code wheels have ever been found. People have been buried with these things without the code wheels. I think that's like burying someone in a suit minus the pants and tie. I'm no peer, and this theory should be peer reviewed. As impressive as I think this theory is, I can punch holes in it. I don't think it would stand up to a peer review. Cheers!
@@JamesStripling 1a. There's no need for standardisation. The only requirement is for two camps that communicate with each other clandestinely to have dodecahedrons and code wheels of the same size. As identical dodecahedrons would be kept at different camps (many) miles apart, it makes perfect sense that no identical pairs have (yet) been found. 1b. There's no logistical problem. Two (or a few) communicating camps having identically sized dodecahedrons and identical code wheels presents no challenge at all. All you need per chain or subnetwork in the larger communication network is a single trustworthy craftsman, skilled in carving and casting, in one camp and a trusted officer to take one or a few dodecahedrons and one or a few sets of code wheels to another camp or a few other camps! It's easy and ingenious -- typical of Roman technology. 2. Bronze is the obvious choice for making pairs (or small sets) of identical dodecahedrons. Bronze can be cast using the lost-wax process, which is highly accurate. The wax models would be made in two halves, by pouring wax into master moulds made of soapstone or pumice, which are easy to carve with knife and/or chisel. The two wax halves of the model would then be welded together, sprues and gates would be added, then the whole assembly would be coated in several layers of silica slurry, which would dry hard. Once the final layer of silica slurry had hardened, the wax would be melted out in a kiln and molten bronze would be poured in. After the bronze had cooled and solidified, it would be hacked out of the silica, then cleaned and filed. We know that the Romans used silica slurry, as they also used silica-rich concrete for building construction. The Pantheon and the Colosseum in Rome are the most iconic examples of Roman concrete construction. 3. The wax found in dodecahedrons might indeed be left over from the lost-wax casting process. The notion that the dodecahedrons were candle-holders is silly and illogical. There are many far simpler ways of making functional or decorative candle-holders. Why would anyone go to the considerable trouble of making high-precision, geometrically near-perfect, lost-wax cast bronze dodecahedrons for such a mundane purpose? And why have most of the 133 dodecahedrons thus far unearthed (not thousands or hundreds of thousands, as you suggested) been found in or near military camps in outlying regions of the Roman empire where raids by rebels and brigands were most common? 4. There's no need to make the code wheels of metal, so why do it? The code wheels are temporary, disposable commodities -- indeed, they MUST be. Thin wooden sheets, papyrus or parchment (stretched and dried animal hide) would suffice. After code wheels had been used for a short period of time, they would be burned so that they could not fall into enemy hands and be deciphered. New code wheels using different Caesar letter substitutions would be issued fairly regularly. Because code wheels were burned, none have been found. Think of the Enigma code machines in WWII. The machines needed to be high-precision, durable, metal constructions. The master code (key) was regularly changed to reduce the risk of code-breaking by the enemy. The more you think about Matt's theory, the more it makes sense. All the other theories that you can find online are silly, fantastical and/or illogical.
@@robst247 I think Matt's theory makes sense. The artifacts found don't support it, though. Where are the code wheels? There are 12 code wheels for each dodecahedron. Lots more if whatever sufficed as military supply periodically sent out new wheel sets due to damage, loss, or security updates. Surely one would have been found. From what I recall from reading about the dodecahedrons, none exhibited any unusual wear, like dials turning on their faces or shafts rotating in the holes. As far as using the dodecahedron as a candle holder, what else would you do with it while not breaking codes, knit gloves? I just don't think this theory is a slam-dunk solution to the mystery. What foundry created these dodecahedrons? What facility created the wheels, kept up on the updates for the wheel sets and kept records of who got them and where they were? There is a library alone for that information. What facility created the message card with the correct key size for the dodecahedron in question, and kept those in stock when a message needed to be sent? And you don't think that's a logistics problem? This video demo looks great. Make that a viable military communication system with all the procurement and supply and record keeping that goes along with it. All of that information is missing. So, no, I'm not convinced.
Really compelling and quite convincing. I think you do bring up room for a proof, though. There must be encoded messages found somewhere? Or messages with null characters? That would definitely prove your theory. I suppose it is logical to assume that all messages are to be destroyed after reading, of course. But somewhere, one time, some messenger must have been robbed/killed and there would be evidence of undelivered messages still in their envelopes? Perhaps messages were designed to quickly degrade and decoding wheels were destroyed in regular cycles... Explains why we never find any of these other bits of the kit. Any user would be educated to remove all proof of function of the decoder. To find a preserved wax imprint would really be exciting. Great work!
Thanks very much for your comments ! I believe that we have found bits of the kit ! You can see my evidence for the code wheel manufacture at:- ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-w87I-sRGtDY.html you can also see my evidence to support this at:- ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-U1amilJffaU.html What's more is that I have more fascinating evidence that I have discovered to follow in my next video premiering in about 2 weeks time. Cheers Matt
I can only find pictures of one without holes. Judging by the picture I'd say all the knobs were different sizes, so you could still use a dodecahedron in the way described in the video, but picking the right decoding wheels would be done by the size and location of the knobs not the central hole.
Very plausible, and kudos for the explanation - interestingly, modern war codes (including Enigma) were split into 5-letter groups for ease of dissemination. Now one must find out why this mechanism was not universally used throughout the Roman empire - including Italy too. By geographic location of their findings, perhaps it was a device used against the Romans, not by them...
It would appear to be an early version of the Vigenère cipher, which "rotates" the cipher every character, instead of every word. I encourage you to look up the Vigenère cipher, as it is very interesting reading.
The hallmark of a good scientific theory is that is allows us to make predictions. Assuming your theory is true, it is obvious that for each dodecahedron there must have existed at least two code wheels at any one time. It should also be obvious where I'm going with this - since your theory necessarily predicts the existence of code wheels in order for the device to have the function you ascribe to it - we'd expect to find at least one code wheel _somewhere_ in the Roman empire where these objects have been found. And that is unfortunately where your theory falls flat - we have not found anything like the code wheels, neither remnants thereof, nor remnants of the elaborate sealing envelope you postulate. Where the envelope is concerned, I will be honest and say that embellishing the theory with what amounts to a plot device makes it seem _less_ compelling - not more compelling in the way that you appear to hope. Of course, this lack of evidence does not imply a lack of proof - all that is needed is for someone to discover a code wheel and your theory is proven. But the dearth of any such archeological proof makes your theory less than compelling, as interesting as it is. The simplicity of the required proof and the low bar for what would constitute watertight evidence paradoxically creates a problem for your theory in spite thereof (as opposed to _despite_ thereof). And if you will argue that, for instance, the code wheels were necessarily made of perishable materials for security &c, I will accuse you of special pleading and positing a wholly circular argument that does not fit the observed pattern for other perishable artifacts of the era, of which there are countless extant examples.
Enjoyed the detailed explanation. One of the better ones. There are also cubes that exist with more sides. Different sizes. And also equal size holes. Having all the same size holes would change the theory. All we need now is to find a coded message of instructions.
If someone knew that it was an object owned by a military officer but did not know its purpose, they might replicate it with identical holes. Either out of a sense of symmetry or just because it would be easier to drill all the holes the same.
You do realize that for this to actually work, both sender and receiver must be in possession of the exact same dodecahedron. Plus as yet, no coding wheels have been found. Nice theory though.
The coding wheels would have been made out of light material which is easily and quickly disposable if necessary, good opsec would be to destroy those things regularly as to not leave dangerous loose ends.
Thanks for your reply Gary, - yes, you are correct - sender and receiver both need same dodecahedrons. No coding wheels have been found yet. Cheers Matt
I think the only possible counter to this theory, is whether the dodecahedrons actually had matching sizes of holes that were decorated similarly. While not necessarily an impediment to your theory, the fact that there are dodecahedrons of differing sizes known to exist would seem to indicate an imcompatibility. To my knowledge, they havent been studied to that sort of exactness. It would require checking to make sure that at least two opposite sides, had an exact match with another dodecahedron in sizes of holes, number and size of rings around those holes, if not relations to the other ten holes. This is definitely an ingenuous and workable theory, but I'm still skeptical.
That could just mean that different code networks at different times used different sizes of wheels and dodecahedrons. You are the second person to state this and I cant see any reason why the variety of sizes would matter one bit. They would obviously be incompatible if those code networks were unrelated and operated generations apart.
@@silvercloud-u5g Thanks very much for your reply - I am interested in your idea as to 'can't see any reason why the variety of sizes would matter one bit' . Please could you assist me by elaborating a little. Thanks Matt
37:33 - A very interesting analysis. I'd say the missing element is that the dodecahedrons found were of various sizes and not really standardized - if it is found that dodecahedrons are of specific sizes, and that locations they are found correspond to command and deployment, that might close this hole.
The various sizes would have been issued with appropriate wheel sizes, and perhaps it's more about the circles around the hole on the side that indicates the origin. We could get even more complex with a multi wheel use per message. By far this is the most plausible explanation I have seen. I agree that perhaps different crafters of this device may have intended it for use at specific locations, and because of secrecy there was no " standard size" only a standard code wheel which could be replaced.
@@Dagroovi I disagree, no two match which means that this hypothesis is incorrect unless there are several matching pairs or sets discovered, which seems unlikely.
That's a really good explanation of what these objects were made for (allegedly). It does all seem to fit the scant evidence we have about them. I think I'm convinced. However, in addition to these 'dodecahedrons' there have also been 'icosahedrons' found. Which are very similar, but have 20 sides, and don't appear to have different sized holes in the faces. They only seem to have a set of 4 .5mm-ish holes, with circles around them, arranged in a triangular fashion, with a hole in the centre, place on each of the 20 sides. The sides all seem to be slightly dished inwards as well. All the hole arrangements on all the faces, and all the holes themselves seem to be identical on all the faces (I believe???). If used in the manner you describe for the dodecahedrons, these Icosahedrons would not work as a) there are no through holes and b) all of the holes (blind) are identical in diameter (I believe????). What would your explanation for these be?
Thanks Louis ! please see this video that explains my code wheel evidence that I have found :- ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-w87I-sRGtDY.html and this video that helps to support the evidence:- ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-U1amilJffaU.html Cheers Matt
Well, this would certainly explain why the device was never cited in written sources nor depicted in art... Fact remain that the dodecahedrons found are different in size...
Thanks for your reply, Martin ! Yes - your are correct, the Dodecahedrons have been found in different sizes because, for example, one has been found from 159 AD and another on has been found from say, 259 AD. That is, both have been found from different series that were made 100 years apart from one another, so we are getting two different 'snapshots' in the historical timeline
Saying Paulo (with a vowel u, not a consonant v) would have been correct for classical times, and is still correct in most modern romance languages such as Spanish and Italian. In classical times the "v" sound (voiced labiodental fricative) hadn't been developed yet. So the pronunciation here was grating unrealistic. PaVlo sounds extremely Slavic and not Latin at all. Straight V was the default shape for the Roman U (close back rounded vowel), being easier to carve. Round U is a modernism. Pronouncing a VLF for the letter v is used most liberally in French, and it feels equally common between Portuguese, Italian, and Romanian. Spain is the region with the most variety, having all three pronunciations of the letter "v". 1) Most Iberian languages betacize the "v" into a "b" (voiced bilabial plosive) sound. 2) As mentioned earlier Portuguese has the VLF "modern v" pronunciation. 3) Some rare regional dialects in the remote regions of Spain still retain the vocalic "u" pronunciation, which is quite pleasant and surprising, but it's not common at all.
That's quite an interesting theory, sounds plausible.. although, it would require all of the dodecahedrons were identical, which they weren't. Admittedly, they might be area specific ciphers, not universal to the entire army, I'd like to see some measurements of ones found near each other.
thanks for your reply - yes I would like see some detailed measurements for comparison purposes , and I think you are correct with the idea that the Dodecahedrons were area specific. Cheers
I appreciate your theory. It's exciting. I have one also, that I can't disprove. Here are some questions for your theory: 1. All current dod finds have differing opening radiuses when compared to each other. A secret communication pathway would need either all or many dods/cipher wheels to be duplicates between communicators or at least have pairs with who you’re communicating with (according to your theory-let me know if I'm wrong). Statistically, duplicate dods would have been found, already. No two duplicate dods have been found to my knowledge (let me know if you know otherwise). 2. Your explanation as to why they are only found in the N/NW/Britain - The high degree of ambush probability in the find areas vs the South and Eastern areas around the Mediterranean, not needing a code machine because of using a ship for message transfer. How do you defend this more thoroughly? 3. Contrary to published work/articles, many (MANY) dods DO show signs of wear around the holes (see the Corbridge, Tongeren, Jublains, xxx, etc. dods……). My theory is based on wood polearm weapon shaft procurement by wealthy Gallic merchants with Auxiliary troop arms officers, but also includes weapon head removal/tapering. Why do you say there are no signs of wear? It's obvious on the larger hole sizes and largest opposing holes of multiple dods. 4. You said, there are 12 different sized holes in the dods. In reality, some dods have some holes that are identically sized (IOWs more than 2 holes that are exactly the same size). Why would the code designer limit the 12 code wheel combos?
thanks for your reply Richard - About 130 dodecahedrons have been found during the last 285 years, maybe another 130 dodecahedrons may be found during the next 285 years. I don't understand 'how statistically duplicate dodecahedrons would have been found' ? As a simple analogy experiment, if you took 130 pairs of socks and buried one of each pair somewhere in the Roman empire, then buried the other socks somewhere else - exactly how long would it take to find a pair? Travel across land was slow and dangerous for a variety of reasons. Boats or ships were the most secure means of transporting both goods and messages around the South and Eastern parts of the empire. Areas close to Italy were perhaps more friendly territories. I'm afraid that here is not a great deal of information that we can trust given about the Dodecahedron. The code wheels could have been double-sided, giving 24 combinations for each dodecahedron. I just showed a simple, basic arrangement. Cheers Matt
The Enigma cypher machine was originally marketed in the early 1920s as a means for encrypting commercial messages - the German military didn't take it up till later. Ì'd never heard about this before, so thanks Matt. Cheers 🍻!
many thanks @timeandnourishment1961 ! I did think of using this fact in my video, but I thought it would make my first video even longer ! I may use it in a follow up video along with a picture I took at Bletchley Park of one of the Enigma machines a couple of years back, to reply to some of the comments I have received.
Which is why the Enigma machines, and presumably the dodecahedron, are not particularly rare. The machine is a generic tool, the power of the encryption comes from an ever changing set of code wheels, dictated by a secret code book.
Interesting, compelling theory! However, how do you acount for variables in the the sizes of dodecahedrons found? For instance the dodecahedrons at the Gallo-Roman Museum in Lyon, France are different sizes with different size spherical knobs on them than the example you have. This system would not work with so many different iterations being produced. Your indexing function (brilliant btw!) requires perfect alignment and would mean very little deviation in manufacturing/crafting tolerances of the dodecahedrons.
Thanks very much for your reply - hopefully you will see in my next video a possible solution to the variability in sizes of dodecahehedrons that have been found. But you need to remember that not all dodecahedrons are the same. Just the ones within a communication group need to be the same. So 2, 12 or 22 identical dodecahedrons exist in one communications group for example. Imagine a communications channel operating on a single frequency. Not every group is on the same frequency.
I agree with kevinurben6005 that as the theory stands it doesn't necessarily need the dodecahedron hole variety. But, I'm imagining each dodecahedron having a full set of wheels. One for each hole. These wheel sets would obviously match across all users of the system. You would then spread portions of a single message over any amount, and any variety, of wheels in a predesignated format very similar to your rotation per word protocol. Which particular wheel subset to be used at which time would be predetermined by the network and would change on a schedule. Even the wheel turn protocol could be dynamic. The layer of evolving wheel changes added to the layer of dynamic wheel turns would add enormous complexity to the system. Even if you managed to get an entire set of system wheels, without the most current predetermined wheel sequence, a trial and error hack would take forever. I don't think romans did anything half-ass. If they made an encryption system then it probably went far beyond single layer of encoding.
Thanks Kevin ! your ideas sound really interesting. As you can see from my video, I just tried to keep the coding system very simple to try and show that the theory could be possible. It could have been more complex as you suggest. Cheers Matt
Remarkable! My congratulations on figuring out this mystery and, more to the point, admiration for the amount of time and effort it must have taken you. Your explanation appears to settle all the questions.
Excellent explanation. Most compelling of any I have heard. I would add though that they would probably use the coding of the "*" symbol to indicate end of word, to further hide the length of words in the message, just as you suggest they used the diamond with dot to hide double letters.
Thank you very much for your reply, Tomasz - yes, I think you are correct with this idea, as it would make the coding much more secure ! I will cover some of these ideas that commentators have suggested to improve the coding in my next video that I will be releasing in the coming weeks. I just tried to show a simple coding and de-coding system, so that people could easily understand my theory, and see how the system could work. Best Regards Matt
Super interesting hypothesis. However it has its problems: - manufacturing would have implied critical dimensions - from the specimens found there is huge variability in hole and knob dimensions - overall sizes themselves vary a lot, recently a huge one was found which totally defeats the purported purpose. - not sure how the icosahedron specimen from Germany could fit - such an excellent and advanced encryption system would have hardly been lost, remember there is continuity of the state up until the XV century... or even up to today if you count the church. - too advanced for the era, military technologies tend to advance together with their counter technology, be it armour vs antiarmour , aircraft vs antiarcraft, comms vs comint, encryption vs cryptanalisis... and such a device would be secure well into WWI. - SUPER important, the dodecahedron (the only physical evidence) would be almost superfluous, just to represent the key, yet the bulkier and most size critical part. That implies too much speculation for too little evidence with a rather capricious connection between the two - no known wooden tablet with such characteristics exists despite thousands being found (admittedly not resistant to time and easily destructible) - two additional characters forced there when the Romans did not use space when writing nor even had a symbol for zero/nulla, it is really an extraneous concept. So, I really don't think it is plausible. Although it is a great attempt that I applaud. And it definitely could work in historical fiction, I wouldn't be surprised if your idea ends up embedded in a book or a movie some day!
Very interesting points, particularly about a huge one being found. I had to look up how huge is huge - it's too huge to use as a wax seal for sure but not too huge to use as a cipher device. I can totally imagine a presbyopic person needing one in that size just to use it.
@@Matt.Geevan In the Portable Antiquities Scheme db item 1144151 is the one found last year. 8.6cm 254g, I cannot paste the link in YT but you can search it. I understand that one it the biggest in the UK but might not be in Europe. The problem is finding authoritative data. I think I heard of one over 10cm but I cannot find where, at least without investing a ton of time digging...
Thanks very much - you can see my evidence at :- ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-w87I-sRGtDY.html also there is a brand new video being premiered tonight at 20:00 hrs UK time which supports the evidence ! Cheers Matt
