I was fencing at college when saber was still non-electric. Oh how the sport has evolved. The privilege of watching the Koreans rise to the pinnacle with their unique and athletic style of fencing is remarkable.
Being an epee fencer I still remember that at the beginning of electric sabre fencing a sensor mounted inside the guard measured the impact of a touch. So you had to hit your opponent with a certain minimum strength to make the light go on.
It's called a Captor, and it was a spring loaded accelerometer that would not let current pass unless a little weight inside the captor got flung to the other side by a cutting motion. I never had the pleasure, as I was not fencing electric sabre at the time (late 90s). But I do remember all the complaining about them getting jammed. And if you hit with the point, you could count on not bringing up a light at all.
Same here. They where prone to failure. I went from epee on international level and a little bit sabre on state level (just for fun) to Kendo. There I'm since over 20 years now. I really like the stoic behavior there, regardless if you receive or set a point. And there never are discussions with the referees. However I still miss fencing.
Korea is mentioned a lot when it comes to the history of saber, especially for changing the mechanics of the sport, but not many Koreans know about saber:(
I've just resumed fencing after leaving the sport when I graduated from college in 1976. A large part of my present training is unlearning the habits of half a century ago. The two critical changes were electric scoring in 1988, and the banning of forward crossing in 1992. I'm not sure if all of those were changes for the better. There is a lot less emphasis on form at the highest level, reducing the sport to a simple matter of speed and aggression.
Hi I also fenced in college 1979 to 1986 then left it and started again in 2017 with all elect. saber .. I still do not like elcet. saber... The use of the sides and the back of the blades to make points now gives you 3 more parts of the blades to make points and with this fencing is almost all speed now... In 1988 when saber went elect. the technology to stop the use of the sides of the blades was not there and every thing they tried did not work... So the evolution of elect. saber started there and with no way to fix the side slaps the people in charge just let the fencers go with what they had "incomplete weapons"... But now technology has got up to speed and the side and back of the blades can be insulated to stop this . I have insulated 7 of my sabers and they all work great and give us back the form and skill we had in dry sabers with all the full parry .. If you would like to try this new insulation on your sabers all you need to do is go to any store that sales permanent tape.. The two kind I used are GORILLA tape and T-REX tape .. I know this dose not sound like it will work but it dose.. The club I fenced at used them and we all liked the change it made in how the saber worked and were used " only the cutting edge and tip will make a point.. This will be a new evolution in elect, saber with insulated blades.. This change can bring elect. saber and dey saber together with all the good parts of both elect. and dry.. All I ask is that you and the people at your club gave this a try and let me know how you like it.. Thanks Marvin
@@marvindixon-vc7qf That is a very interesting solution to what more and more people are starting to see as a problem. I suspect as sabre become increasingly unbalanced in favor of speed over form, FIE will be forced to implement some counterbalance, as they did when the banned forward crossover. I suspect that, limited to the point and the edge, it will be easier for judges to determine what is and is not a good touch.
Its so ridiculous that they took running out of Sabre. It's one of the most important ways that made it the most exciting weapon to watch and participate in. Just watch the action in the older clips. MUCH more exciting!
Slicer, very good. It brings up a lot of memories, including ones I never had myself. So why didn't you put in the 2000 blade change? That plus the timing changes a few years later did change the game in that refs could be more sure it was an attack rather than a remise that landed. Also at 12:15 you make a note about "attaque non-correcte". I'm supposing you mean fencers getting caught in preparation, but please clarify.
To be honest I missed out a ton of stuff. If I had the time/effort I probably should have done a series on this. It's also hard finding older (and even newer!) footage. 12:44 is an example of attaque non-correcte. These days Keita would get the point as he had priority with the feet, but since he made such a big mistake with the hand the point goes to Ogawa. Decisions like this meant that fencers could not get so close on the long attack so fell short more often.
@@PoorMansHEMA , prior to 2000 sabre blades where a lot thinner and flexible than they are now. Look at your sabre blade near the hilt and you will see "2000" stamped on it. That is proof by the manufacturer that the blade passes the 2000 stiffness test. Why it matters is that the blades were so flexible you could parry one and the tip of the blade would whip around your guard and land, bringing up a light. In fact there were fencers who would purposely attack with the flat of the blade to take advantage of that. It was left to the ref to decide if it was the attack that landed or "whip-over". In 1998 the FIE sent a directive to all its referees. "If there is an attack and a parry riposte, and you cannot tell if it was the attack that landed or the whip-over, you are to call it for the parry riposte, and call the other guys' light on the box as a remise."
@@donaldbadowski290 I still have some vintage '89 Prieur/France-Lame blades and they are plenty stiff. The Italian blades were less stiff but whip overs wouldn't do you much good because of the impact sensor. That is assuming your guard was insulated properly.
@@uuthird , I might suggest you try them out and make an attack with them just like I said, with the flat of the blade, and see if you can't bring up a light when parried. However, the FIE did these tests 20 years ago. So no matter what you find, I think the FIE is going to keep us on the 2000 blades. Let me know how it goes please.
What was it about fencing in the 80s/early 90s that made them outlaw cross-stepping? I rather enjoyed the '92 clips, thought it's a small sample size. Like, what specifically was it about the fencing that made them change that rule? Also, I'm glad they did away with the automatic halt upon crossing the warning line. Way too many pauses in the action
I've heard (?) sabre was becoming the old mans' and fat mans' weapon, so when you couldn't do footwork anymore, you could still crossover your way down the strip. Another was that sabre footwork overall was getting terrible, with no one bothering to advance or lunge anymore. On the bright side, there is no doubt that sabre footwork now is the best it's ever been, and leaves the non-athlete behind, or the old coach in my case.
You had a lot of bouts where guys would just blast off from the on guard line leading to a never ender series of simultaneous attacks. It looked like two rams butting heads. Also, top athletes had gotten so quick that with cross overs and fleches allowed the action was becoming too fast for directors to follow.
My first coach, a woman, told me at the time that the Europeans, especially the French and Italians, were way behind in training women sabre fencers, and so held it back from being introduced, until they were ready of course.
@@NDOhioan , it was ego, no doubt about it. As for sexism? I don't think so. France and Italy would be more than happy to bring home medals in women's epee and sabre. What they couldn't stand was the idea of their women losing to American woman. Therefore, put the breaks on the process by telling the FIE that those two evens (4 if including team) are just not ready. We're talking the mid-90s here. Who had more pull with the FIE? Italy and France, or the United States? I don't know how old you are of course, or how long you have been fencing. But believe me when I tell you the 90s were a dark time for American fencing on the international stage.
@@donaldbadowski290 I see. I guess I jumped to conclusions when I should've looked deeper. My apologies on that front. I do see your point, and I appreciate the information!
I don't know about other countries but the only pros are coaches and instructors. They tried to have tournaments that paid but it never really took off. Fencing in the Olympics is one of the sports that has remained amateur. Fencers competed for National pride and love of the sport. I believe you are saying your mom was really good. In the 90's there were a lot of good sabreueses, they had to be tough and in some cases more skilled than the guys. We had to go to each of the men and ask permission to compete. After a few years that changed and we were allowed to compete in men's until we had enough numbers to have women's events.
@Mihail Etropolski Sorry for the wait, here's what I have found so far: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-iU1ii5kKP2M.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-4DzLu7hNxw8.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-rR_8krq8RPg.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-esn2--Tl2os.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-6Iu1sHYA22o.html I'm sure there's more on RU-vid but it can be a pain having to search in many different languages and often the titles of videos are vague
You should also mention the strange crappy invention of the capturer where you need to make a proper "cut" to make the light to go off.... I am glad that didn't last very long.
Before electric scoring, we were taught that grazing and slapping were bad form, and since the judges had to actually discern the touch, we focused a lot on form. When in doubt, the judges would give the touch to the fencer with better form.
The blade of a weapon should be colored(green/red), to make points and movements more visiable and enjoyable for fans. Fencing is such a beautiful sport. Elegant, dignified, knightly, honorable, noble. Takes me away to the ancient times, when a man was a man.
@@sharpzonand they're goddammn good at it. Personally, I think enjoy women's sabre more than men's, as it is often more technical and interesting than with men, where physical strength is more important
I wanna try fencing eventually in my life if given the chance the one i wish to learn is the old ways the one used in actual combat not sport any idea of where to go?
You could have talked about sensors in early electric saber, the elimination of the hand as target area in and stiffer blades in 2000, never ending compound attacks from early 2000's that led to the very strict footfall stuff from 2008, the appearance of the Korean hop, and the latest fad of calling reprise in the middle, to name a few. Not bad video but a bit bland.
@@samsignorelli hello Sam ! I'm a student in industrial design and I'm working on innovating the fencing mask. I'm doing a lot of research on Lexan. Could you give me an insight on how Lexan is bad for fencing (security, weight , etc). thank you !
@@joepotato2862 Several issues. 1) It was not specified what grade of lexan...it SHOULD'VE been graded for aircraft canopies, but that probably would've made them even MORE expensive. 2) There were zero specs on how many screws to hold the frame closed to hold the plate...nor any torque specs on those screws. 3) The manufacturing standards specified the lexan was to be formed by draping over a mold, not by injection molding. The Uhlmann foil mask that failed (picture at facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10221587844864347&set=a.1442555422774&type=3&theater) that killed those masks for foil and epee HAD been injection molded...and the injection ports were the failure point. It was also the most recent brand approved. 4) As an armorer, I could not put the mask punch on the lexan in front of the eyes....where Smirnov got hit. I could not test the most important area. 5) The idea that fencers will maintain the mask in a manner that keeps the plate in place is just awful...most fencers need an armorer at the Dan DeChaine level just to retape a foil blade. I would ALWAYS check EVERY screw on the faceplate of EVERY lexan mask that I checked during control, and the number of masks I checked that had every screw tight is in the very low SINGLE digits...people just didn't think they could work loose. 6) The plates had a 2 year lifespan. The idea of something that has that short of a useful life in front of the face is horrifying 7) The rationale for them in the first place was crap. TV wanted to see the faces....the problem was if the camera was on the face you could not see the action, and if it was pulled back enough to see the action, you could not see the face. Plus competitors at the level TV showed tended to scream and whip the mask off anyway, so what was the point? 8) For sabre, you lose a large amount of target area. At the Beijing Olympics, there was one incident where it clearly cost a touch. France vs Egypt in men's team. France attacks, Egypt with a nice parry/riposte to the face, which landed audibly, but no light because it was on the lexan. France counters and gets a one-light hit. It didn't matter in that match because Egypt was getting hammered, but the US matches against Hungary and Russia were both 45-44. Had the Egypt incident happened to the US, it is very possible that we would not have made the gold medal bout against France....therefore, no medal. Steel is far superior for the usage.
@@samsignorelli Wow thank you for the informative response ! Yes the Smirnov incident is very sad indeed and should've never happened. Also, I didn't know armorers couldn't test Lexan visors. And thank you for your video on how to check masks and gloves ! Well, thank you for confirming some doubts I had about Lexan, mainly about the safety and the non-conductive aspect of Lexan. Do you mind if we keep contact ? I might have other questions about mask materials and fencing in general. I would be honored to have the opinion of an armorer that has been in the business since 1996 ! Thank you Émile
Yes, you heard correct - that was the Olympics in Moscow, Italy vs Russia (USSR) and Mario Aldo Montano, the father of Aldo Montano - the today's fencer, was on the Italian team. At that time there was one more Montano (Mario Tulio), cusin of Mario Aldo ....
My recommendations: 1. reintroduce the impact sensors they had in the 90s - maybe this time they would "just work". It shouldn't be a "touch", it should be a "hit" 2. introduce doubles, like in epee. Strategy would totally change and you wouldn't have so many discussions with the referees. 3. make the blades slightly stiffer - especially at the first 3rd. They shouldn't be able to bend like that.
if doubles were to be introduced, it would be a totally different sport, also, if the blades were stiffer it might lead to more accidents with things like point in lines or attacks on preparation in the abdomen. i know eppes are stiffer but sabres have a smaller surface on the tip. FIE litteraly made maranging blades mandatory because they bend more and are safer. i kinda like the idea of the impact sensors
@@gasso1312 to your point of maranging blades: the idea is that they break "flat" without forming dangerous peaks. Making the blade stiffer - especially in the first quarter from the tip - would bring immense benefits. There es no reason to believe that a epee-like sabre blade would do any harm.
I hear changes made this sport shit. The only true test of a warrior is with blood! Sharp blade tips and go to town. First to score two slices on the opponents face wins!
The changes made it a real sport of athleticism. HEMA exists for those more into reenactment. You will find less athletes on the HEMA side in general though. Options to think on.
@@jarrarwinks8470 You don't know me and my family son. We celebrate our injuries and carry them with a badge of honor. Grab your sword and I'll grab mine and we will see who regrets what. I'll run you through fucker.
@@jarrarwinks8470 I did go to a HEMA fighting group once but they were just too dorky for me. Hahahaha. Why do so many theater and sword fighting people have to be such giant dorks. :p
