Being largely unaware of TF2’s balance history, I do love your little misdirections. “This new weapon was balanced immaculately. …Oh, except for the fact that it could hit people through walls and get random crits at triple the normal rate.”
It is funny that the Sandman is the Scout's balance equivalent of Spy's Dead Ringer. Since it was added to the very end, every update was spent in some capacity trying to make it balanced to mostly lack of effect. Like father like son I guess.
@@Skullhawk13Honestly, after 8 years in the game, they really should’ve just kept it. Maybe get rid of the health penalty or give it the old cleaver combo, and it’d be iconic again.
@@Brother_Pinerthe combo could've been kept, but stunning in FPS games, like Lister Said, Just doesnt work. Being prevented from firing your gun in a fast paced shooter with the press of a single Button is too frustrating for a game like TF2. It turns 1v1s into an instant Win for scouts
@@Skullhawk13 Yeah, my only real ideas of fixing it pre-Jungle Inferno would be: + 15% *more* health + stunned players cannot move - -95% damage penalty for stunned players - -20% speed penalty - The ball can be caught. If it is, *run.* EDIT: For those wondering about my reasoning, I believe stuns can be a good addition to an FPS, but only in an at least partially casual setting. It obviously has no place in any competitive mode. There just buffing the damage of the Sandman and the Cleaver would've been good enough.
@@naoaquieopatrickpatrick8565 you'd think so but pulling those stuns off was hard at long range (best way to use it) and was only good for environmental kills or very situational in use beyond that. The only people annoyed by it were people who were stunned & cleaned up by the rest of the team - which was exactly how it was supposed to be used! You picked medics off this way without getting mowed by heavies. When they nefed it they made that a very difficult option to choose.
The amount of scout weapons valve nerfed into the dirt from being too strong is a true testament to how much of a Force a nature Scout is. BFB, Sandman + Flying Guillotine by association, crit a cola. So many sections I was looking forward to. Lister never misses.
Everything here except the CoC didn't deserve their nerfs. The sandman on release was bad, but AFTER that nerf it was no more than a fun goofy weapon that fit TF2's artstyle and gameplay direction. The sandman used to be my all-time favourite melee. Even if it wasn't the most-viable, it was always the most fun and nostalgic weapon to use (reminds me of the good old days where I'd try hitting INSANE moonshots on mario_kart or just messing around with it on other old maps in 2010 - 2014). And DON'T get me started on the bonk nerf of Jungle Inferno. It slows you down at maximum to the speed of a Heavy (which is a slowness achievable by running past your average sentry nest), not only allowing the enemies you just ran past to catch up with you and completely defeating the purpose of the weapon, but leaving you a MAJOR sitting duck. I am of the firm belief the bonk didn't need a nerf WHATSOEVER, but if they did nerf it they could've at-least made it more true to the weapon's purpose; like make you take mini crits for 5 seconds after it wears off, so you're incentivised to hide or stay out of combat momentarily once it wears off, not be slowed down to the speed of a slug so the enemy can catch up to you and destroy you. Essentially, Valve removes the slow effect because they see it as counter-intuitive to the whole design of the weapon. It's left like that for YEARS. Then some new devs come along "huh yeah this bonk weapon is totally busted the comp community says, let's add a slowdown effect to it!"
@n1ghtshad390 Says who? What golden rulebook dictates what does and doesn't belong in TF2? Last I checked, invulnerability soda cans, projectile reflecting-weaponry, teleportation, flying men with shields/ swords, random crits, and weapons that propel you at high speeds through the air via self-damage didn't exist in most traditional FPS games.
Not even 30 seconds into the video and I can already appreciate the attention to detail with the fact the Soldier in the beginning was using the Direct Hit for the one tap gag since Scout was at full health.
To be honest, the amount of broken combos and overpowered items throughout the life of TF2 is insane. I started playing in 2014 and so never experienced the orignal sandman or tommy gruvich, but it really shows how much the games design has changed over time. Its very telling that some of the most powerful items in the game where added early on and never changed (or at least never lost their overpowered abilities) over the years.
Yeah, tf2 wasn’t always balanced well and even today, there’s a good many weapons that could definitely be buffed, nerfed, or full out modified. I’m happy it isn’t perfect though. Imperfection is its own perfection.
48:39 The Short Stop actually gets its name from a baseball placement, which acts as a supportive role in the baseball team, which works with its idea of being a support based scattergun
yea, i meant the slowing down thing was why they called it the "shortstop" alongside the baseball reference, i kinda forgot that baseball is an american thing and not everyone would find that obvious lol
@@listertf2 i mean given all of the baseball references plastered all over the rest of his loadout i'm pretty sure that if you want to learn about scout but don't know enough about baseball to know about the shortstop position, i don't know what to tell ya
@@listertf2to be fair like 95% of Americans also know squat about baseball because it's a really boring sport. I went to one baseball game as a field trip in fifth grade and the only thing I remember is the game taking so long that we had to go back early because children were passing out from the heat
my favorite part about these videos is how they all start out reasonable enough and make me wish i could have been there for tf2's golden age, just to for that to be shutdown as i listen to the worlds most absurd series of buffs/nerfs ever conceived lol. makes me almost grateful to have gotten into the game post jungle inferno
I am just wanting for the video that combines all the classes videos and gives context to how all of the nerfs and buffs interacted with each other I love your videos
Getting into tf2 and deciding on being a scout main, seeing the history of his playstyle changing with different nerfs and buffs is very interesting. A very informative video that was well put together.
Scout really hasn't changed much since 2007 fundamentally. His weapons were the things that changed throughout the years. And those weapons really changed how Scout can be utilized, making him even more powerful than he already is. This was a really great video of such a varied history of weapons for one class.
right off the bat (scout joke intended); massive respect for using vandoorea's Faster Than a Speeding Bullet remix. that guy is super underrated imo, and i've been listening to that track while playing scout lately. it's cool seeing it here! post-watch edit: man... it's really cool seeing what was of scout, and his massive fall from grace that was honestly kinda deserved. he used to be the most OP class in the game, and honestly his personality fit that. he was insanely good and he knew it, and was completely cocky about it xP ...still think BFB should be a bit more forgiving on the whole taking damage thing. sandman should also have the health penalty removed, i'd swap it for a swing speed penalty
Lister you genuinely make my day better when you post these videos. On days when I don’t know what to watch or I just chill, I rewatch your “Evolution of” videos. Scout was definitely the class I was most interested in seeing a video on, and I’m happy to be here to watch it!
@@Skullhawk13 Sure, but I still think saying that is the hardest counter is a stretch. I main pyro, and i feel like scouts have more options against a sentry than pyro has. I would even call the pyro and heavy match up a stronger counter, since pyros cant even output enough damage at close range. Even the heavy-sniper and heavy-spy counters are much harsher. Also, you don't need to be good at pyro to completly stop any spy: just get used to flame around, and keep mid-short range when finding one. I can't even remember the last time I've gotten trickstabbed as pyro.
Silly little fact that probably everyone has noticed so far but i wanna point it out The "Special Delivery" set, more specially the hat plus the "Mad Milk" is a possible reference to The MilkMan from Psychonauts. It's the same hat and, well, milk, mad milk. "I am the Milkman, my milk is delicious" -Scout TF2
The intro gives me serious deja vu to Tracer at the start of OW1. Everyone thought the character was terrible until one insane player proved that mobility is king. Gamers never seem to factor "learning curve" into "viability". Everyone is so quick to call something useless until they get proven wrong or the devs buff it into a monster.
Hey, thank you for this thorough opinion piece and recording of history! I can only imagine the hours put into just collecting all those clips, let alone writing and editing the final video. For the end result to actually feel like a worthwhile watch instead of a mere reading of old patch notes is an accomplishment in its own right. And for it to have felt engaging, well, you have fully deserved your Blockbuster achievement! Oh, except that it was nerfed. I've been playing TF2 since 2011, having first resisted because as a Quake: Team Fortress veteran I knew I would immediately get hooked, with a small gap that I ended three years ago. Of the approximately 8400 hours I've played, the vast majority I've been double jumping and meatshooting around as the bostonian menace. And I had still forgotten or not even heard of many of these twists and turns the scout has had throughout the history of the game. Also, not having seen it myself, I did not even know The Sandman used to be /that/ overpowered at its release state. I might have lamented its downfall even more than I eventually did. While it is regrettable that the developement of the game has slowed down to the occasional bug fixes, I am glad that overall, the game has been left in a state that feels relatively balanced. Sure, from a scout main's perspective, maybe The Sandman could have some use, maybe the mini-sentry's hull should have a *#¤*!ng magnet for pistol bullets, and maybe the BFB should require 30 to 40 points of damage to completely lose its speed buff, but these are ultimately minor aspects to a class that has plenty of viable, and more importantly, fun playstyles available to anyone willing to try them out. Anyway, thank you again! This was a fun, relaxing way to start my day off. And inspired by your video, I might just continue it by popping onto a server for some brief crazy legging.
holy shit this is mindblowing but at 1:10:41 in the video one of the players hovered over is called MLC St3alth, who is a legendary SMITE pro player from way back in the day. it could be an impostor but i might be the only person who spotted that name and understood who it was. look his name up he was a beast!
"The baby face's blaster is still good in the right hands" BASED AND TRUE. If you're clever with your movement, you can literally avoid the movement speed downside
It's still a bad weapon it may be fun but there are better options. You really need to rely on the wrap and cleaver. You might as well use the shortstop at that point. The thing holding the weapon back are chokes, Pyro, chip damage, and sentries. On some maps this isn't an issue like king of the hill you could argue that it's actually a pretty good weapon in that scenario.
Yeah it's not that the weapon is bad, but I prefer the less volatile original gimmick version that dealt no damage to the massive highs/lows of the new one. Being ultra fast is still as good as ever
@@corbinallen4562 Everything that you listed are thing that good scouts should be avoiding anyways, and the pyro Vs. scout match-up ins't something the pyro really wants to take. A scout loses 10% movement speed with the bfb, which is only significant on larger roll-outs. Keeping *basically* the same movement speed as scout and having a MUCH faster, much jumpier, much more agile scout to go up against in DM is a NIGHTMARE. The increased speed is good for literally everything, and a scout only has to deal a measly 25 damage to get back to regular 400HU/S, a good scout can earn the speed boost just as fast as they *could* lose it, which comes back to how source handles the movement vector, as the speed for the scout wont *actually* decrease while he's in the air. This includes both regular and double jumping! A single meatshot in DM will bring you right back to that sweet sweet full meter. Hell, I even know some 6s flank scouts who run it; there's so much potential hidden within the gun. I highly recommend to just experiment with it, but if you understand source's movement, you'll have a lot easier time to use the BFB to its fullest potential, trust me.
Wow, I listened to your heavy and spy video today while working. I Was just wondering which class you'd cover next. As someone who started playing tf2 after jungle inferno, these documentaries are incredibly interesting. Keep up the great work man!
Jungle Inferno gave the Wrap Assassin a buff you seemed to not mention. You mentioned that the Sandman's baseball had its cooldown reduced from 15 seconds to 10 seconds. But since the Wrap Assassin has a stat tied to this (25% faster recharge time), the Wrap Assassin's bauble cooldown was also reduced from 11.75 seconds to 7.5 seconds as a result.
Fascinating to see the heights scout reached in his heyday. It's funny to think that right now is probably the most balanced his unlocks have been considering how powerful many still are.
I'll admit I'll miss the old 10 health atomizer. Being able to just spam jump while catching up to your medic had a lot of value in HL. Sure you didn't have the build of the basher but you had the DM of the atomizer and a bit of extra damage to build uber. C'est la vie. At least I can hit myself with the wrap assassin for that sick 1% extra uber advantage (lol.) and get that annoying bleed scout pick.
i used to play scout with the guillotine and sandman and got way to good with it that my friends came up with the name the stunning cleave driveby (or something like that as it has been a few years), man we used to joke so much about it cuz how OP it was. if only the cleave could atleast do mini crits against slowed enemies sandman might still have been used a bit.
An idea just popped in my head for a few scout weapons. Sandman: the damage and stun should scale depending on the balls range, meaning that if you're in a closer range, it's damage would be minimal but in a longer range it will insta kill if you get a head shot. The downside would be that it can't recharge, forcing you to literally walk your way back to the ball...and another scout player can hit your ball back towards you like it's tenis or something. Shortstop: The weapon would be a high caliber pistol that allows the scout to fight in longer ranges. Buffing the shove does have potential for melee combos or even using it with the flying guillotine but I would prefer it being more like a mid-long range weapon in order to keep the tf2 sandbox unique. There's a few more (bad) ideas I do have for scout but I'm like.....dying now
Your production improved a lot since your last Evolution video. Keep up the grind! Hope one day i get to see you do an evolution on MvM, how it got teased before the update even dropped, how dumb refunds were at the time, and how Jungle Inferno broke the game mode for a featured class.
That's pretty much the infinite refund video, and everything before it is just going to be about the problems MVM had enough to warrant those adjustments. People knew it was systematically rough if you weren't doing things the, "right," way, or you'd be stuck on a rudder-less ship. But the video kinda fails to account that simply having someone new was a effective refund, and the game cannot just force you to be someone's role out of their control. The video already goes over all of that, so a new video is only going to be what goes on with MVM today. Updates are only going to be for mitigating the abuses griefers done. I don't think further giving recognition to the losers who still feels strongly about MVM after all these years is going to do much good either.
@@risa1467 You're right i suppose. I guess in that sense we don't need pyro and demo evolutions, just go watch demoknight and combo pyro, that should be good enough to tell their history :^)
@@krimson8089 One of these things is not like the other, and that was not my point. Both Demoknight & Combo Pyro have useful insight to how both classes were warped for the longest time, and what Valve wanted to do with them. That was the longest period of time for me playing TF2 pre-uber update. MVM's history is just the ARG/TF2 Lore, repo files of what MVM could have been, and what it led to for Valve to do absolutely nothing with. Which it is all already covered in the refund video, because that's the mechanic that was tuned to prevent game abandonment because of over-centralized gamemode balancing. The losers complaining about anything else just wants to strong-arm the gamemode into what they wanted it to be.
it's probably my least favorite weapon to use in the game i get that it's balanced or whatever, but losing your boost feels awful i'd much prefer if it was reverted to some iteration of it's no-jump version
@@fortnitesexman I disagree with lister's view that the current BFB is necessary. At-LEAST make it take 100 damage to lose your boost or something similar. 25 is way too punishing. Even as a Scout player who played this game for many, many years, the sudden jolt from going really high speed to moving like a slug from a few stray bullets is not only incredibly unsatisfying, but it takes your brain a good second or two to acclimate to that sudden change, which can mess up your aim and your movement and get you killed very often. PS I'm still salty at Valve to this day for Jungle Inferno/ BFB nerfs so maybe I'm biased.
i dont know what it is about these videos but theyre so rewatchable. the editing style and commentary are superb!! always interesting to rewatch, coming from someone who rewatches each one every few weeks or so lol very excited for the continuation of this series, as a pyro main im interested to see how different classic pyro was as opposed to now (yes i already know of the combo pyro video, but still)
Scout's balancing history is interesting to look at; he's a class so perfectly balanced that Valve really had to come up with some bizarre ideas to give him variety.
Crit-a-cola was perfectly fine before 2017. It only got nerfed cuz god forbid anything besides stock scout being usable, Comp players ruined everything...
That's a common theme. Sandman was fine. Guillotine was fine. Bonk was underpowered if not fine. Atomizer was fine. Etc. They all got nerfed because they "weren't fine" in competitive which should have zero bearing on Casual. But of-course the comp players had to whine to Valve to change the entire balance of the game.
On the bright side for the Fan O' War, it's one of Scout's more powerful unlocks for MvM. Marking high HP bots for death is an invaluable tool for killing them fast, especially if you milked them (not sorry) as well for heals. Love how that mode can breathe new life into some weapons.
It was fun going down memory lane in this video. The launch version of Baby Face Blaster was insanely broken, but it was so much fun. Scout was always my 2nd most used class so I was always happy when Valve gave him new items
The statement "Stuns don't belong to movement shooters like TF2" is just an instilled though that quickly spread over the playerbase, thanks to Uncle Dane and competitive community. Having a possibility that your movement can be taken away by a skilled shot even more amplifies the importance of movement and motivates you to improve it. Moreover Scout had only one shot in store that could be easily dodged and made Scout's movement more predictable since he would most likely attempt to pick it after failed attempt. Stuns are what made TF2 unique and fun, they were a part of TF2's old spirit and had been here since the game release: Soldier stuns, Demo stuns, Sentry stuns and bullets push you back. Without them you would get another CS. And I would argue that Sniper has become a major problem only because everything that could counter him got nerfed: I remember how Sandman Scouts were giving them hell. It's funny how this weapon got killed only because some TF2-youtuber-engi-main got his nose inside Valve HQ and was teaching developers how to develop *their* game. He was lucky Robin Walker wasn't around back then, otherwise he would be kicked out of the building. I would be mad too if some guy taught me how develop *my* game. And what's even funnier, after all these changes fostered by Uncle Dane half of playerbase left the game in disappointment. His statement "After 5 years players will say that the comp is the reason I started my career in TF2" seems to be aged poorly at very least. Valve shouldn't have even attempted to please the minority that wanted to forge TF2 into something it wasn't. They got two big comp updates that almost killed TF2 only for them to crawl under their rocks which their private servers are. Truly the smallest but the loudest part of community, like a toddler. Sorry but no one wants the game to become so predictable and repetitive thanks to unchanging meta, like CS or Overwatch. I want my items and options to have fun back.
your vídeos have helped me sleep better for what feels like months now, not to say they are bad or uninteresting, but your voice has a somewhat soothing tone that my mind finds calming I still do actually watch and listen to the videos btw
Two things I've realized while watching: 1) I was truly playing in the glory days of Scout and to now find that I am much less effective with the class is probably a skill issue... Though I didn't use much outside of the BFB in terms of broken unlocks 2) I'm so sad I missed the bird scout migration. I don't think I've laughed this maniacally in years. Your editing was immaculate
![The Evolution of Scout [TF2]](/img/logo.svg){kind=logo}
