The Execution Rant 

This makes me appreciate the design of UMVC3 and the HUGE execution gap between characters. Magneto uses instant triangle air dashes to open opponents up and can extend his combos almost ad nauseam as long as you can keep up God like execution Meanwhile, Hulk and Haggar can kill almost any character in the game with a baby simple Gatling combo into super. Taking away those options from Magneto doesn't make Hulk and Haggar better to play

We went from "SF4 good, execution good" from people who never played SF4 to "SF4 bad, execution bad" from the same group of people. It's always the brothers who know the least who have the most to say.

somebody recognized me by the combo i did to them the other day, that is one hell of a feeling. sad to see that be so rare in newer games

One thing I feel does a disservice to SF4 and gets people to hate on 1f links is how they *look*. To the untrained eye, there's little to no difference between a 1f link and above, you have to know it's the hard option prior to witnessing it to see the nuance and be impressed whenever it happens. In that aspect I feel like SF6's system definitely makes it more obvious when an extension is harder than the other.

I think this is what helped me get into Tekken as my first fighting game. The variety of options with the hundreds of moves with the existence of the ridiculous range of execution really helps me track my progress as a player after finally being able to recognize niche situations and land harder execution combos or maneuvers. That and it makes watching people with the execution to pull of fat combos is far more satisfying and more interesting to watch.

Nice video Brian. I enjoyed it. (I watched it on 2x speed)

I love this take so much! Having a large selection of options and a gradual skill climb allows every level to have fun and constantly grow. Players like Sako and MarlinePie get a ton of expression and notoriety because of their extreme level of execution. I think my favorite thing you mentioned though was having multiple combo routes for different results. Having a high stun combo, a high damage combo, an awkward hit confirm, or a crazy counter hit are all things that can help make you stand out as a player and optimize your play.

Thank you so much for saying this, Brian. I'm so sick of people complaining about difficult execution that isn't mandatory. The argument I usually hear is it's much more fun to choose combo routes based on screen positioning, metre usage, etc than doing tough links, as if the two are mutually exclusive. Metre management and screen positioning didn't suddenly become a thing in 5; it's been in 4 (to a larger degree) for years. There's just an extra level for those who want to optimise their play. If you can't do it, either go practise, or make do with lower damage. But no one should be taking options away from other people who've spent hours learning execution just because you're salty. I agree tough execution becomes a problem when it's the only option. Characters like Vega, Rufus, and Abel who require them to complete their BnBs are poorly designed in my opinion. But that's not a problem with 1F links; that's a problem with Street Fighter 4.

I agree with you, but I think most people who argue against execution, just see fighting games, as well games, and want to be able to do what the pros do without having to put in the work. There's also always those video essay guys, who can spend hours on a script, but for some reason spending 5 minutes to learn how to roll your thumb on a d-pad is too hard for whatever reason.

I think a lot of this boils down to people wanting to feel like they have a chance to be really good. They aren't, they know they aren't, but if you remove things like 1f links, it creates this sense of attainability. It lets people think "Sure, I might not be as good as Punk or Daigo, but I *could* be if I really wanted to," and there's very little direct, indisputable hard evidence to the contrary without hard execution walls. I can theory craft myself all the way to Theoretical Ultra Grand Master on the basis of "well, I've done footsies and anti-airs and combos before, I just have to make the right decision every time and then of course I'd win all my matches." But I can't theory craft my way to being able to do 1f links. I either have the execution, or I don't.

The midnight training mode after work or study just to do the same few things is super relatable. It’s the time you spend on the little things that set people apart. Really the whole thing of execution not allowing for player expression is kinda funky because you can very clearly tell the difference between people who play a lot of 1 character and people who play only 1 character.

I think there’s been a trend recently on social media and whatnot where people act like having anything difficult at all in fighting games is bad and/or killing the scene. Sometimes I agree but honestly most of the time it just feels like people not understanding that making everything simple won’t solve every single problem with fighting games. Not to mention, Smash Bros Melee is overly complicated, stupidly hard to master, is incredibly unfriendly to beginners in a whole host of ways, and has also been massive for decades now I think a lot of people are under the assumption that fighting games have a smaller audience compared to something like the fps genre because they’re too hard. What I think is that, in a fighting game, you will lose if the other guy is better than you 9 times out of 10 and casual players aren’t looking for something like that. I can pick up CoD or even Smash Ultimate with items on and I could end up scoring a kill on a better player through sheer luck. Even in something as relatively simple as SFV, you could grind your absolute heart out for months and still not stand a chance against some players. Even worse, you have to play against them for at least 2 whole rounds that might stretch on for over 2 minutes altogether. That’s 2 minutes of being trapped in a room, getting your ass handed to you on a silver platter, and knowing that it’s all on you. No amount of help you can offer a player will ever stop moments like that. Not to imply that we should just be leaving newbies in the dark with constant knowledge checks. I’m saying that even with the best single player content and/or training mode ever with extremely generous buffer systems and dead simple combos and amazing rollback net code you’ll still go online and just get screwed occasionally. Let’s be honest and just admit that, that’s not for everyone and that’s fine. It’s okay to not be for everyone. I love fighting games but not everyone else has to

marlinpie's doom combos are another one that comes to mind. Actually mvc in general is a great example of execution greatly contributing to player expression.

People focus a lot on 1 frame links but that's not the only kind of hard execution, and even 1 frame links are not all equal. I'm not much into 1 frame links but it's very satisfying to do other stuff like microdashes, tight juggles and inputs like TKs and kara cancels. It's a physical challenge that I enjoy doing and it's cool to me even if no one else in the world was watching or cared.

i don't really mind 1f links i just think plinking is kind of lame especially when people started to rewire the select button to plink lights it's annoying learning how to plink to go beyond the surface level of sf4's combo system and i personally feel it's not even satisfying to execute compared to gatlings or normal links on a game-feel sense yeah i understand that you don't HAVE to learn it but you're putting yourself at a disadvantage by not doing them kind of like how your movement is gimped if you don't know how to KBD in Tekken

I greatly prefer 2-3 frame links over 1f simply because of the meta aspect of plinking and adding extra buttons to sticks, which effectively is bypassing the whole point. Without plinking 1f links might be too unreliable, so 2-3f seems like a solution.

I think it's a couple of things that lead people to say that. I'm not gonna say these below are right, but I think at least that's the correct form for these arguments I've seen. No matter how hard something is, people will grind for it. In this person's head, it's no longer a choice. If something's viable & better, it's no longer a choice. You have to learn it. I think Lordknight's phrased a few things this way when talking about games with high conversion potential on combos. Meaning that somewhere within that system, there's something you'll want to do ergo the choice is removed. It becomes more of a contest than a strategic thought. Me, I think it's a choice. I've played some of those games and the optimal really hard stuff is almost never worth it 100% or out of reach compared to the almost optimal stuff. But I do get the argument though, when I play blazblue and I don't squeeze the minimum damage out of any hit, it feels like I made the subpar choice. Not because the full conversion is necessarily harder and i'm consciously steering away from it. That combo system is deep enough that it's sometimes just awareness. I don't mind this and I can at least understand how someone can say these are not 100% conscious choices (even if they are choices regardless) I think the 2nd more interesting part is that there's a group of people that REALLY seems to struggle with the idea of playing with an incomplete gameplan. Like, if the game makes them aware that a better option exists and they're unable to use it (for whatever reason), that's like a problem with the game somehow ??? Or the way they complain about it makes it seem like that's an issue with the game. And I can see how their understanding or expectations of video games can lead them to make those style of arguments. "You have to learn to KBD before you start playing Tekken", "You can't play the strategy in Starcraft without learning Micro/Macro 1st", etc etc

Even think about how a LACK of execution is also apart of expression. Justin Wong doesn't do any flashy shit at all, he never works out his fingers in the slightest, the fact he doesn't need big huge combos to completely beat your ass is absolutely some awesome player expression. It wouldn't be as cool to see Wong play if there was no execution in the game because he wouldn't be sacrificing anything.

Tbh rather have 2-3f links because seeing as some NEVER play locals/offline, consistency is a dice roll depending on connection. We got better netcode but still…I disagree on links explicitly for that purpose. I get the argument & mostly agree but I get so tired of this same argument for the fact no one EVER appreciates the fact some can only play online in a practical sense. That’s more frustrating than anything & is a slap in the face for someone like me who can’t even get to a local because of severe health issues & can only stay home. If netcode is GODLIKE then sure 2-3f imo. 1f if netcode is the next coming of our Lord & saviour. I seriously doubt it’s because people are only salty at execution

People have this idea that if you lab the timing you can get 1f links 100% of the time and that renders all other combos obsolete. Watch high level SF4 and you will see pro's dropping 1f links, it really is too hard to perform perfectly every single time, and that's why the execution gods like Sako are so respected

This is actually why I miss watching all the urien players. The headbutt loops can sometimes do less dmg than a generic combo, but they just wnna show you that they got that.

It's very interesting that in SF6, you can argue that not only are combos becoming choice/player expression, but now it's very obvious for even casuals that drive gauge usage is choice/player expression. Basically if players are given choice either from character kit (all fighting games) or system itself (in the case of SF6), you'll start seeing the patterns of player expression as they make their choices from either execution or neutral/approach/reversal. And I think most people agree that initial seasons of SF5 drastically reduce the choices players can do.

"HEY! FUCK YOU, I'M NICE!" - that's the type of energy I enjoy most about the execution in combos. that feeling right there.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't some characters in SF4 have unviable damage if you didn't do 1-frame links?

every rant about fighting games can be solved just by getting good

I love this video and how it answers the main question of what execution means as player expression. For example, MK's execution and damage (Let's limit it to 9, X, and 11) is there, you can make a pretty damaging combo no bar or bar to do 30%, that is what I did with Kung Lao when I started getting really into the game (X) and then in 11, where my execution was better I did simple ones that cost me 4 or so percent damage, and I came back to train them all the time, and when I choose to do them on a match, because either I think they are the ones that can kill or I just want to make a sick brutality combo that mentally puts me ahead in the next match is amazing. Had that experience at a local when I won the set I kept a brutality combo on a 3v3 and the crowd just celebrated the brutal with me. High Execution is valuable, and there is a difference between making it valuable, and expressive and making it a requirement.

Gamerbee's Adon is what inspired me to really master tight links in SF4. It was tough as hell, but the damage potential was just too much to ignore.

I am with you, 1 frame links are fine for the most part but not when needed for basic BnB combos like Guy or Vega who HAD to use them to be remotely viable (Guy cr.lk --> St.mp or Vegas everything). And to be fair no one really did 1 frame links they did 2 frame links with Plinking (I recall people praising ChrisG for being one of the few NOT Plinking). Edit: Really love that SF4 is suddenly the epitome of execution when that game made fully invincible uppercuts not only mashable but also SAFE at the cost of 2 bars lol

My honest opinion is that high execution ceilings are good, and so are games without as much of an execution ceiling. Of course, I know execution stimulates decision making, but at the same time, execution is an area where some players don't really care for improving, and want to enjoy a game where it won't feel like that aspect will limit them at higher levels. I love GG Xrd, favorite fighting game ever, the skill ceiling in execution is insanely high, and the floor is fairly low, it's cool, but I also see value on games like Fantasy Strike or SamSho where execution is clearly not the focus. That's why I am glad that in the current era there exists a wide variety of games you can play, a lot of them getting good rollback now, so people have access to the games they *want* to play.

Personally, there's some attitudes around execution that come up often and feel problematic: To some people, it's an affront if an easier option is just as good - not the same, mind you, but as good. Where that logic often ends up at is "if it's difficult, it's ok if it's dumb and busted and makes the game stupid". See eg. snipers in FPSes. They're just the ability to input execution into the game and become God. On the other end some people just want everything to be easy. I think this is equally boneheaded (as Brian said, in SFV people feel like players are the same more than they do in many other games), but stems from real frustration at not being able to play character-as-designed with reasonable effort. But the desire to have that often gets twisted into a more extreme one, as it does with the mechanics fetishists who want little else to be good. Some theses I'd propose: - Having execution-based expression is Good. Labwork can be a lot of fun once you find the stuff that excites you. - Especially within a character, having higher execution yield higher reward or open up options is Good. The degree of this effect need not be the same for all characters. - It is Good for the game to have both mechanically easy and mechanically difficult characters that are equally good. - It is a larger tragedy if a hard character isn't good than if a simple character isn't good. Spending hours grinding a difficult character should leave you with a viable game piece. If the character's Rev2 Zato, that's just a bad, bad look. - Within most characters (except those designed for people who like execution for its own sake), the "playground" options should hurt substantively enough so that the game can be played for real. - Within a character, having a wide variety of small, but not strictly necessary optimizations adds tons of nice flavour and rewards and motivates labwork, especially if the flavour options look really swag. - Having a thing that's easy in a way that feels dumb is bad, and having dumb stuff is not ok just because the idiocy is difficult. In other words, Xrd Sol. Near infinite optimization potential, yet the basic BnB is easy enough to learn and the options even before it aren't dummy "I got a jab, 'yay' " type tragedies. Faust (Xrd) is another good example: Much of the character is really easy, he has like one difficult thing for the most part, and is easily top tier and able to hang with monsters like Johnny. Yet the character feels expressive and not dumb. Downside: It feels like a lot of his "normal" combo game peaks out very soon, which can be demotivating for labwork. Overall, I feel like characters are the best way to adjust the difficulty of the game since you can still have the execution gets you better stuff thing going within an easy character where it's some extra spice, while simultaneously giving the execution fiends something to really sink their teeth in and do swaggy things with, without running into the issue of causing others to feel like they're not playing the real game. As long as the execution fiend characters don't end up like Zato. But masochists exist...

Totally agree, I just feel that high execution shouldn't equal pressing a bunch of buttons quickly. Happy Chaos in Strive is one of the more aggregious examples of this. His reload cancels and steady aim stuff is just 'press the buttons faster 4head'. It's not timing, and there's no other real choice to play the character well. Which is why I'm loving the sf6 execution stuff

Sako Ibuki comes to mind, sweet jeeez he went for the highest execution combos with ibuki like they were 4f links. 1f links for days

You can just feel Brian's passion!

There's a strange rhyme in the history of fighting games regarding execution. The developers of 3rd Strike and Super Smash Bros Melee encountered an interesting dilemma about execution and their own game systems where they intended easy, medium and hard options to give players choices, but found that the skill floor was still exclusionary after a few years. The developers of 3rd Strike loved the parry system but lamented that beginners had to learn parries to stand a chance. Sakurai loved melee's complex movement systems (Wavedashing was an intentional inclusion) but dislikes how it forced players at really low levels to learn how to do it. Both Street Fighter 4 and Super Smash Bros Brawl made efforts to move away from those execution heavy systems (though SFIV replaced parries with other difficult execution like 1 Frame Links, Brawl just tied to kill competitive play completely). The real kicker to me is that I still think you're right. The developers might not have liked how high the skill floor for 3rd Strike and Melee were, but those games not only garnered incredibly loyal playerbases but still stand tall as some of the best fighting games ever made. It's possible for two complete beginners to have a great game of 3S and Melee without these advanced techniques and still enjoy themselves while top players get that juicy complexity, execution be damned.

My question is, and I genuinely am asking this am unfamiliar with sf4 and sf in general, why would someone ever, at their peak condition (no cold hands, feeling themselves) ever do a baby combo compared to a harder combo? If you can pull off a hard combo 100% of the time then why would you do a weaker combo? And if its because you cant execute 100% of the time, isn't that just a limitation and not expressiveness? As in, wouldn't someone who has the same level of neutral skill and other factors as another player but cant execute the same combos, aren't they just a weaker player, and not expressing differently? Not trying to be stupid just genuinely wondering, also big fan brian ty for awesome vids

at the same time that i see that brian express my feelings,and i started to being happy with this video,at the same time , i get sad,cause Fighting games are going to the opposite direction. thanks for being too good with words brian

The only thing I dislike about 1-frame links is that controller and monitor latency can make them somewhat setup-dependent. Apart from that, I completely agree with you: tight links and a high execution ceiling allows for more player expression and more diverse top-level play. When is that ever a bad thing?

Part of this discussion reminds me of finding when I played GG Xrd properly during the rollback beta after playing Strive and finding that the more limited Gatling system in the newer game actually makes it harder to just do some random ghetto combo :-/

As someone who was introduced to fighting games in SF4 my read was less so that the execution issue is what made SF4 so difficult, and more so that finding information about the game was like delving for arcane secrets in an abandoned ruin. Finding access to bnb combo lists, or any info that didn't require you to sit down and math out all the frame data for yourself was like pulling teeth, and for someone brand new to the concept it was overwhelming to say the least. Couple that with the challenge mode combos having little if any actual value in matches, the game never really set you up for success as a player and just expected you to sit in training mode and lab until your fingers fell off just to get a basic feel for the combo system. Execution IS player expression, but it's only one type of player expression. Lowering the amount of execution required for most basic combos wouldn't be an issue if other systems are added to the game to expand player expression in other areas, like adding more interesting neutral/footies mechanics, improving mix-up potential or like in the case of SF6 creating more importance on pressure and tempo. That's not to say you can't have both, I think Tekken 7 has done a great job of offering an array of high execution combos players can go for to squeeze out a bit more damage while maintaining relatively easy to perform bread and butter for almost all characters as well. My experience playing Tekken 7 after playing SF4 exclusively for years was that I had to spend less time grinding in training mode and way more time learning interesting matchups, drilling frame data and actually just enjoying the fighting part of the game. At the end of the day, if every character has some risk vs reward options to extend their damage that's the ideal scenario, it adds longevity by giving everyone goals to work towards in improving their performance. On the same token most, if not all, characters should have accessible combos that give players a jumping off point. The idea that it's a good thing people should have to play "Easy" characters to start with, instead of ones that have some affinity for or they vibe with just because said character lacks entry level combos is a fast way to whittle your player base.

Honestly Brian is spot on here. The only counterpoint I have is this. The thing about SF4 that made the execution feel extra frustrating is that due to the reversal system and invincible dps…players would mash dp on block and on hit, and frequently get rewarded for doing do so. You could get dp fadc ultra punished for half life for missing a link whilst the opposition would get rewarded for mashing, as a beginner /intermediate sf4 player often times you felt SCARED to punish moves to even half optimal levels because you could get mashed out of it, which for the average player felt like robbery. No other SF game incentivised mashing and punished attempting execution (at mid level) like SF4 did. Probably a lot of most lower level intermediate / entry level players biggest gripe with the game!

This is so true. Having certain execution routes adds variety to the character and the players expression of that character. As an NRS player, going from mkx (one of the most combo heavy mk games imo) to mk11 (to one of the least combo heavy mk games) really sucked for me. I played Kitana in mkx and she was one of THE combo characters in that game. You could do the most the most execution heavy crackhead combos just for 2% more damage and psychological warfare. In mk11 you can barely do that. The combo routes are so limited and it makes the game more dry. Not many people can identify with a character in that game and every character and player using said characters looks and feels the same. Now this is a little different cuz I’m NRS games the combos are already braindead easy but the ones that juice out extra damage are usually really swagged out and shi. However, this is just my opinion on it. (Nice vid btw)

"Hey fuck you, I'm nice." - Brian_F.

It feels like there is a large % of gamers these days who _want_ to participate in more difficult, investment-heavy games these days, but want to get there through removing depth/difficulty/nuance from the game instead of putting in the work. Then they'll use "le bad game design" or "player expression" as a weird surrogate for this argument. Fighting games are suffering from it, and PoE is currently too. One of the most baffling aspects of it is, we already have loads of overly simplified, overly "designed" games that get boring quickly, plenty of examples of why removing depth often makes a game boring quicker (not in every case ofc). And yet the requests still come. It's probably just older gamers becoming video game karens/boomers.

One frame links are great, even if I never use them, but what I want from fighting games is to let everyone watching know when an advanced combo was done ... maybe with an audible cue?

For me playing strive, a game with pretty watered down combos (not saying that's bad- moving on), playing Sol has been so much more fun than the other characters because playing him at high level requires you to be able to do kara cancels constantly. At first, i found the challenge to be frustrating, but now i struggle to play anyone else in the game because combo routing and execution just isn't there. Kara cancels have become one of my favorite things to do, and i hope sf6 has some use for it.

Hard agree. Think the core issue is people conflate skill floor with skill ceiling and go down the route of “this is is hard for beginners”. Having started my FGC journey with SFV, to hear people talk about IV, you’d think the combos were impossible and you had to have such a high level of execution to get even the basics but what Brian says is true, yes there are 1f links, but also easier combos. People talk about 5 like it’s super easy and sure, I get where they’re coming from, there are no super hard links but there’s a range of difficulty just like 4, combos with say Karin or Menat are just inherently more difficult than say Ryu or Luke.

Beyond with it. Yeeeesh, I could never describe this feeling, and you did it in 15min. Thank you so-much for keeping it 100%.

Luke reminds me of the sf4 combo system a bit he has really easy combos and then like 1-2 frame links with his charge moves, It really adds to making him fun to watch in my opinion as Even the best luke players drop his charge combos

Completely agree with you on the many options! Very good points for this argument!

No way, wouldn't it be fun if zangief's super were qcf plus jab? And raging demon was strong plus short? In fact, removing execution from combos would be awesome. Then it would be all about yomi. Like if guile reads your fireball we can skip the tedious difficult loops and just have his jump fierce knock down and do 48% damage. Fighting game perfection.

It is a balancing scale though. Too much execution and I dont even feel like I am playing against the person rather playing against the game to see if I can pull of my combos consistently. Turns into QWOP

To the people who don't like the one-frame links in SFIV: Do you really wanna live in a world without sick Sako combos? That's what I thought

I just love the tactile feeling of execution. The joy of landing something hard in a real match. I'm not hyper-competitive. I play with friends and ladder occasionally. I think the day when execution disappears from the genre is the day I just stop playing.

Honestly I think people just don't want to lab or don't actually play FGs and think that the games are a lot harder than what they actually are, at least execution wise The thing about 1f links is that they have to be very well implemented, SFV had the prime opportunity to develop the system further, but they went with the buffer instead IMO having buffers for punishes (after block stun) and no buffers on offense could be pretty sick, To this day I still lab some Oni combos just for fun, I would love if Kolin had specific combos to lab in SFV but she just does anything into EX Parabellum and it's optimal lol, Practicing links would be another reason for me to log into the game, you know? What's crazy to me is how people talk shit on execution but still lick the boots of Third Strike, if you play anything besides Chun in that game, your character usually requires good execution to use their really powerful tools, stuff like punishing moves with Shippu Jinrai when playing Ken, super fast Kara-Demons with Akuma, crazy charge partitioning stuff with Urien and Remy, unblockable setups, the list goes on.

I think this counts as player expression: I can’t do the optimal Guile boom loops at all (cr lp boom cr lp boom cr mp boom) so I labbed how to do the loops while taking out the first boom (cr lp x2 boom cr mp boom). I lose like 17 damage over the optimal route, but at least I can actually do the loops

its really fun to watch people do different combos from eachother in tournament, but as a player i like not leaving execution up to chance and just being able to do optimal combos

Man, I feel like I can sit on both sides of the fence on this one. I've been playing a lot of melty blood lately, and I initially really liked it due to its simplicity. I was able to focus more on spacing and movement and what options to do during Oki. You could run a few moves into an autocombo for 2.3k damage , maybe throw a special at the end and get 2.6k and the game generally was a 4.5-5 touch game (~10k health.) Eventually I got to a point where on top of players being harder to get in on and open up, they now know combos that are doing 3900-4300 damage. You're essentially playing a 5 touch game vs someone whose playing a 3 touch game. Now I have to sit in training and work my ass off to learn something that does more damage. I'm focusing more on the combos than gameplay fundamentals, and I'm doing just as poorly, but in different ways. At this point, the game is not nearly as fun as it used to be. It feels like a chore. Yes higher execution combos are sick to watch, and they can be fun to do, but they often become mandatory because the tradeoff is too good.

When I had first looked into SF4 I had the preconception that I would need to learn hard links if I wanted to be functional with whatever character I picked up. That plus consistent FADC execution evading my grasp (to this very day even) made me eventually drop the game. My execution improved overall as I've experienced more games but I guess that's where a lot of the 'high-execution ceiling = bad' arguments stem from. A casual/viewer will see a Sako combo and think that because they aren't at that level they would rather wait for games to nerf the level cap in a sense. Many games, not just fighters, have been catering to this demand though I think SFV and 6 are doing a good job re-contextualizing high execution. Glad you got this one up for youtube because there's a lot of good argument to be had here. P.S. Can the coffee debate get on the clips channel? P.P.S. Will the Sekiro play-through be on the clips channel??

I actually quit fighting games partly because of Street Fighter 4. My execution stinks, which is fine, but I feel like in older games I at least was invited to the game, even in games where I couldn't do certain things. I still can't do a custom combo to save my life for example. But I never felt like the game was telling me I wasn't allowed to play. In SF4, I couldn't do FADCs which are a very core element of the game. Forget about 1-frame links, which I also can't do, I can't even engage with the most basic part of the game. The barrier to entry was just too high for me. Could I have grinded it out for months in training mode to overcome this? Sure, probably. But I also wasn't having a good time any more so it was time to move on. Sorry, this ended up being more negative than I intended. Great video Brian, always enjoy your rants :)

Do most of the people complaining about execution even have solid gameplay in the first place? Like, before they worry about not being able to squeeze 50 extra damage out of their bnb or busting out the swag corner loops do they have solid matchup knowledge for their skill level? Can they control space, use the bulk of the system mechanics effectively and have answers for situations players can commonly find themselves in? If not, optimal damage doesn't even matter yet

I feel like this goes hand in hand with game perception too. BlazBlue has this perception where I've seen people see Carl Clover and Izanami at the top of the tier list and are like "This game is too hard then, I dont want to touch it" when they're only two high skill floor characters in a game that has a ton of super sick characters with a far more lenient skill curve like Ragna or Jin or Makoto. It doesnt mean the game is actually super easy or is still unfathomably hard, it just means it takes a little while to learn how things work and what works best for you.

The balrog example is exactly what I missed about sfiv. 1 framers are what separated casual ol Me from a dedicated player. It gave me something to strive for.

I largely agree that adding harder options that give a bit of an extra reward is a good thing, I just think 1f links are pushing it a bit too far; 3f links seem much more reasonable to me. A pro can still mess up a 3 frame link in a tournament setting, but a crap-ton more people will be able to do them at least semi-reliably without needing to put an ungodly amount of time into practicing. On another note, I would trade any sort of hard execution for straight-up new options for characters that add choices between damage, oki, corner carry, screen control, resource gain, or other relevant factors, any day of the week. I find those sort of choices to be far more compelling, and of course, accessible.

Common Brian W. I’m generally an anti execution guy because of what Beian said: it sucks when there’s a character you want to play but unless you can do XYZ hard thing consistently, you’re not really playing the “real” version of the character. Having a wide range of options that introduce risk/reward is good for all players at all levels. Low skill floor/high skill ceiling is the way to go

Doesn't V have microwalk combos that are much harder to pull off and more rewarding than the usual links? I think an issue is most people ain't aware of them and so barely use them I feel

This video convinced me to boot up Tekken 7 and learn how to do Kazuya electrics for real - not only did I learn a shortcut to doing it but I found it super fun along the way so thank you for making this video

Idk if youve ever heard of ninakilla212, but his execution is phenomenal. People recognize his mkx liu kang for its consistency with insanely hard combos. Dude pulls triple instant air fireballs out of his pocket like theyre candy

I think sometimes when folks talk about execution and such, they have this idea of top-level players which kind of overestimates their execution level. I see people claiming all the time that pro players ALWAYS do the hard combo, and do it perfectly, and that therefore the depth you're talking about with risk/reward is meaningless because they're just SO good that the risk aspect is flattened completely. Those people are wrong - because pros do drop combos at even the highest level. But they're also fucking idiots because they don't think about the fact that their own gameplay isn't at that level, and therefore the risk/reward aspect is definitely still in play when they're playing the game. Good rant Brian fanks.

Love this man's passion for the game. Mad respect.

Marlin Pie definitely has shown a lot of unique personality when he does his crazy TAC Doom loops. Especially when he looks at you with the crazy happy anime stare while letting Muscle Memory rock.

I remember how good it felt to finally be able to perform the Russian Mafia combo in Brawlhalla back in the day or learning the setup where I punch someone into my weapon before I kill them

i don't see any mention of it yet, but this rant reminds me of Vonnegut's short story "Harrison Bergeron" set in the near future where some amendments to the Constitution made every American equal in every which way. Those with average intelligence are unable to think for extended stretches of time, and those with above average intelligence had to wear this in-ear radio that played loud random sounds at random intervals to keep them in check.

Good luck playing Abel in sf4 without being able to link cl Hp after the step kick. Also about 1 frame links, when people talk about it, they only focus on combos. Combos are the smallest problem when we talk about 1f links. You need to do 1 frame links the entire game to play it properly, on punishes, on frame traps, when you need to check your opponent's pressure, for exemple, pressing jab on wake up or during a blockstring. I know its my opinion and many, if not most of you disagree, but when i go back to sf4, its really annoying when i try to time a blockstring, or punish something, or anything else and the move just don't come. The case of self expression applies only for combos, not to all the other problems, and because of that i have to deal with it because i didn't spend hundreds of hours practicing a technique that helps with 1f links that is actually just an exploit of a mechanic that was invented not to help with links, but just to help people not miss the grab or focus input (talking about p-links btw).

Seeing that Sako tweet about how much he trains just baffled me. I knew pros trained a lot seeing old videos like Fatal1ty, but damn, 8 hours. I need to step my game up.

Hell yea this is some good shit. Love this discussion! Keep keeping on Brian!

O shit. O shit o SHIT👁👁. Man and just now I was picking on up SF4 almost playing better SFV afterwards. I saw evil ryu in the thumbnail,something I tried like last month related to em got me hooked on the game aswell👀. Okay okay here go.

People who do optimal clean hit dp combos with Strive Sol Badguy are balling and the people who never go for them are chilling.

The problem with having more options for those execution monsters is more with how casual players view the genre. They mistakenly believe that you NEED these combos in order to play the game at ALL, so game companies remove these options to make the game look less intimidating. If you want to keep your options as a high level player, you need to shut down the gatekeepers who don't even play the genre. BrolyLegs is a great example of not needing to execute crazy combos and he's one of the best Chun Li players of all time. I'm all for more options, but I feel like the more people complain about high execution, the more game companies are gonna take from the game. And guess what? The game is easier to play and these complainers are STILL struggling! It's almost as if there is more to these games than JUST execution. Try to explain that, though, and somehow YOU'RE the stupid one because it's STILL an execution issue. You know, because it's a fighting game. "All you need to be good at it is a good combo." I'm not a very high level player, but I would LOVE to have more game to explore should I choose to do so. If anyone has some good ways to shut down these gatekeepers, I'm all ears.

This video gets me so hype when he talks abt the Daigo combo and says “remember that”, Brine was spitting so hard. This is why I love combos

Thank you for putting this out there so clearly.

1 frame stuff seems very iffy from a design standpoint. Generally requiring that from the player, game, and especially online with any consistency is not good design. I think execution requirements are good though, but 1 frame links runs a very real risk that it will not be consistently viable and dependent on the link it could interrupt combos on a "fluke" level.

As a sf4 rog main this video speaks to me. I remember putting so much time into cr lp cr mp links in upper loops, then added hp strait fadc cr lp, St hk, cr mp xx.... so rewarding compared to jab only combos.

People sitting there that criticise SFIV's combo system because it's got 1 frame links act as if the game was rife with only 1 frame links, and his point on Balrog is what I've been telling folks for years. Yeah, doing something like cr.lp to cr.mp is more difficult than cr.lp cr.lk before your headbutt or ex upper loop, but if it's that difficult for you to do, then you can still fall back on your light kick variant. The vast majority of characters had options that were NOT 1 frame links, and you could very easily play without relying on them. I was a Rose main on SFIV since half way through Vanilla all the way until now, and even in delay based netcode, hitting her BnB cr.lk to cr.mp link [1 frame] I could and can do consistently on delay based netcode, but if it was that bad I could always fall back to the cr.lk cr.lp variant if close enough, and this was a character that had notably less options than others. Over half the cast were filled with options that were never 1 frame links, so all these equivalent bronze players that cry about 1 frame links and say that execution shouldn't be difficult because they're not good enough to do them... I happily quote what Brian says. "Fuck you". Use alternatives and practice what you can't do. Fighting games [and competitive games in general] are all about that personal progression and elevating your understanding of your character, your options and the philosophy and psychology behind the games you play. If you're not willing to put that effort in and instead want the games to have even more removed from them so you can feel better at being inadequate, then yeah, fuck you. Go play a game that IS NOT competitive by design. Don't need to complain about 1 frame links or any remotely difficult forms of execution when you play The Sims. One of the biggest criticisms at the beginning of SFV's season 1 was that every character basically had very little variety in terms of combo routes and playstyle variations due to how restrictive the game was at the time, which was a very large difference to SFIV, where most trained eyes could VERY easily tell the difference between things like Justin Wong and Ricky Ortiz's Rufus, OR the difference Dieminion and KnuckleDu's Guile. People would know when it was Latif playing C.Viper. YHC Mochi and Sabin's Dhalsims were rather different. Very little could be said about Season 1 characters. This is what happens when you sit there stripping away at a game's skill ceiling.

im not a huge execution guy, just kinda lack the patience most of the time, but i get it. I cant describe how good it felt to learn how to do KBD and electrics/JFSR in tekken.

The only way I can understand this mentality is that many fighters at the moment don't really seem hard at high level. Like optimal is not difficult. So it's not execution that is the players expression but instead the neutral is where the player can express themselves. Like Sako picking Menat. It's Menat because she has that room. Sako likely not gonna pick Ryu in SFV. Maybe that is the angle? I myself I just say i do or dont feel the game. Thought id like Melty Blood, played it and just couldn't get the feel for it. Play Tekken, I am climbing. I am a Vindicator atm. Still training, getting knowledge and still climbing. I am not gonna hate on Melty because "I" wasn't working with it.

Not big on 1f links but I don't mind them so long as there's still simpler stuff to do or that you can still be good without needing complicated stuff in general (which seems like the case for SF4 or SF in general) Also I dunno if it's related but after playing USF4 again, at least just goofing off with it, not big on Focus Attacks (esp after Drive System) but otherwise the game feels so much better than SFV. Idk if it's just me but SFV just feels weird. Input feels weird there, some character kits have weird changes (Akuma), and idk it also feels sluggish

Even Guilty Gear Strive - a game people were calling a baby execution game since before launch - has player expression made obvious through execution. Snake Eyez and FAB have WILDLY different Potemkin play styles, with Snake being a Kara-cancel monster who vortexes you and Fab being able to just whittle your life down and delete your health bar given one chance. Raw kara-cancels can't be buffered, have a 2-frame window to execute, and some combos only work when the Kara-cancel was specifically a frame 1 or frame 2 cancel, so seeing Snake Eyez go for it and pull it off every time makes it obvious it's him.

I tried subscribing because I thought the way you approached this topic deserved it. I was already a sub...

I feel like one of the big things that contributes to this mentality is this idea people have that a good player has to be good at every aspect of the game. While on some level, you do need to have every part operating at a competent level, you have room to compensate as well. You don't need to be an S-rank in every stat. Maybe if you wanna be the very best, but if you're going that far, you probably have the patience to sit through that grind. My combo-game for example is absolute trash. I can't even finish combo challenges for my main-picks in most games. However, while I try to keep that at the back of my mind and practice when I can, I'm also acknowladging that I can hold my own against people by focusing on the easy combos, while focusing on other aspects I'm better at. There are both characters and games that gear more towards a certain style of play. In Guilty Gear Xrd, I don't need to be a combo-master to whack people with Sin, because his damage is so front-loaded to those landing hits like Beak Driver and Bull Bash. Then on the other side, in a game like Samurai Shodown, I barely have to even worry about demanding combo-strings, because the game is pretty fundamental and favors chunky punishes more. Meanwhile, in Street Fighter 3rd Strike, getting good with parries is actually the kind of execution I can get down with, because it's not a long string you memorise with unreliable variables, it's just about timing and reads.

Loved the vid man keep it up :)

I think execution should be used as a skill ceiling and not a skill floor. L-cancelling is a good example of this - you press a button within 7 frames of landing and half your landing lag. This isn't necessarily a barrier to entry, but it can become annoying for new players who don't find it intuitive But execution as a skill ceiling? bro landing the j.Hk > cl.Hp > m.Axe, cr.Mp > h.Fireball > FADC fwd, cr.Mp, cl.Hp > m.Axe, cr.Lp, st.Mp > l.Axe > FADC fwd, cr.Lp, cl.Hp > m.Axe, cr.Mp > l.Tatsu, l.Shoryu, h.Shoryu is SO SICK

1:44 Pretty much sums up the division of the entire playerbase in gaming right now I'm with Brian on this

That's actually one thing I'm excited for in SF6. *Everyone* has parries now, so we'll be seeing more of them than when it was just Ryu/Alex/etc. But this is also where Brian's execution tier discussion enters. Most people are just going to parry. The top-8s are going to be filled with *perfect* parries. Both players have the same options but we'll see the difference between the experts and scrubs, just the way he's underscoring here.

I'm 100% with you, I'm someone that hates heavy execution characters and will just....avoid playing those characters. I like playing simple characters and have no problem owning up to that, not everything is for everyone nor should they be.

As a new player to fighting games, it feels very bad to me to play a game with insane combos, it feels like I'm in a disadvantage by not learning the intermediate/advanced combos, doesn't feel like player expression to me, cause the end goal of most players is to play on the highest level and being consistent with combos. The beauty of a fg (for me) comes with the mind games and neutral, if I don't play with the optimal combos, I'll have to outplay my opponent way more times than they need. I get the player expression in combo routes, but for me it's not fair if the optimal combos are just wayyyyy too much rewarding.

i have a lot of problems with high skill floors which is why i like brian's point here: have a low skill floor but a high skill ceiling to give high level players choices. i really do believe it's that simple, and i actually believe that basically everying FG has this capacity built in what i dont believe, though, is that FGs themselves do a good job of teaching the player that they dont need 1 frame links to have a good time or even win a local if they really wanted to try i do take issue with one thing brian says, though. I think where we consistently get lost in the weeds is what constitutes a low skill floor. for people whove played a lot of FGs like brian a 4 frame link is "baby easy" but to many that's absurdly difficult. how many frames is easy for whom? when is a link "too easy" as to become a big problem for every skill level? i think it's way more useful to find the floor for everyone. but once again i think this comes down to the game not being a good teacher. people can happily pull of the alistair headbutt+knock-up combo in league, two moves that have to be linked in less than a second. maybe it's the fact that it's only two buttons, maybe it's that MOBAs feel more approachable despite being just as complex as FGs at lease, but for some reason many people feel very comfortable with learning the alistair combo. but linking a crouching light kick into a light tatsu on sakura in sf4? it feels impossible for many to their credit, devs seem more aware of this than ever. we may be in the final years of FGs being perceived as impossible to approach with things like SF5 and Project L on the way. who knows

I think execution is a form of expression but things like the walk into ex do from EndingWalker in grand finals of the French tournament that just happened is also a form of expression. Not saying you said it wasn’t, just that maybe people think there can only be one way, or that one can only express it’s play through high execution combos

I'll give my boomer finger perspective: I just can't do links, man. Whether it's 1f or 5f, I just can't do that shit consistently. I don't just play fighting games, so I can't devote all of my time drilling the timing into my brain to be able to do it every time. That being said, my solution is to just not play Street Fighter. I absolutely love watching the game and I love the fact that the execution is so difficult, it makes watching way more hype, but when it comes to playing a fighting game myself, I just need cancelable normals to be able to play at a level I enjoy. I don't think there's any shame in that. For actual Street Fighter players, I think being dismissive of 1f links is really strange. Wasn't SFV the only entry without them? This is what Street Fighter has mostly been about for most of its lifespan. I think that being against them really goes against the spirit of the franchise.

I only get bothered by execution barriers if a character I want to play has really difficult BNBs but then I just pick another character. Can't get behind people who want execution ceilings lowered just to cater to them

0:40 oh boy