Fighting Game Strategy & Difficult Execution Are Intertwined (But Not Required) 

That's been happening forever unfortunately

Pre-order scrubquotes NOW, before the game is released!!! 😎 👉👉

People have thrown a fit over every aspect of this game so far tbh. Simple inputs, costumes, perfect timing.

@@TheNobleFive and the graphics. People want that golden standard to be met you know 🙂 And that golden standard would be DNF Duel, GG Strive, anything from recent ArcSys games.

​@Lucas Wibisono unfortunately SF hasn't looked good since SF3 because of the change to full 3D, and they can't really go back to 2D at this point anymore. I know ArcSys does 3D as well but you can't tell unless camera changes to some certain angles like on counter hits.

None of em play fighting games

And SF6 has both lol

Haha accurate. At this rate I don’t know what the FGC wants. They asked no more comeback mechanics like V-trigger. But when Capcom added Just Frame move that requires more skill, the FGC also got angry. So what actually the FGC wants??? 🤦‍♂️

imo there's different people complaining about different things at different times or at least thats how i view such contradictions

@@spidericktehdarkandstuff7417 100% it's almost like large groups of people consist of individuals that can have different opinions and desires from one another.

Opposite for me here as example, I like heavy execution combos but I'm way better at them as a P2 than P1.

So what do you do if you feel like you suck at everything and cannot improve at all?

You take breaks and try not to beat yourself up. I used to have a terrible mentality but I was able to work on it after years. For example I thought 623 moves were 9731 inputs when I first played SF4, I also thought you had to jump and then do a motion to do tk moves until I learned Baiken in Xrd and learned 2369. Focus on the little things and try not to look at your day-to-day, "if you take a step a day eventually you'll have walked miles" and all that

Dunking is an execution barrier made to gatekeep people who are short and unathletic smh

@@tingispingis How the hell am I supposed to get a layup when there's, like, 3 people blocking the goal? Execution barrier! Judge!

basketball is sucha shitty game, why do i have to dribble the ball? its a completely meaningless and artificial execution requirement

jwong doesnt kara throw on chun li which is one of the core parts of her offense, but hes one of the greatest ever

I'm pretty sure those people that complain know they are bad and believe that saying what they think elite would say makes them somehow better.

Turns out perfect parry is damn easy and people were getting it by accident half the time.

Nice, rank gating opinions! Bro, grow up and get off the playground

​@@charliericker274perfect parry is not easy, as far as I know it's a 2 frame window. Which is a 5th of what 3rd strike's is. It's just not super risky to go for since if you mistime it you get regular parry which is essentially blocking without taking chip.

And you have to have the presence of mind under pressure to not just mess up the easy one too because you overthought it. You have that split second to decide what combo to do, and just having to make the snap decision in the pressure can throw you off. The decision-making AND execution are both clutch as a result.

THIS. I hear this so often from people who don't play FGs on why they dont want to touch them. They think it's this hyper-precise game of doing frame-perfect link into frame-perfect link.

I'm learning Milia in GGST and struggling to realize what to do when I get hits, because she's so incredibly fast-paced. Blockstring or conversion? Just enough distance to hit with j.HS and then what? ((microdash) 2K 2D 236HS but I just learnt that) on and on, real fast gameplay, having to abuse the air, realizing my spacing in practice... I don't know if this is something that must be muscle memoried to lower thought economy or if I'm supposed to actually increase my execution to play Milia at a default level.

@@angelsoflolz when you are first starting out, you should simply learn what your buttons do and what they can go into. A few basic conversions are fine but dont get obsessed with having an answer for every situation. From there just play, and get a feel for the game. What you want not occupying to much of your mental economy is yourself in a neutral state. You should be able to move and position at your ranges without to much thought because your focus should be on your opponent and what they are doing. Once you get in the habit of this, understanding the entire situation becomes easier and you'll be more prepared for when combo opportunities arise. Theres no point in knowing a big optimal combo off of uncommon situations before you understand when and why they would come up. As an example, when I learned G in SF, I started by learning his very common very accessible conversion of dash straight dash low wheel kick at pres level 2. Mostly because like I said, the opportunities come up very often. From there I learned mostly used it off his st lk. Its a great whiff punish button, it combos out of his st lp and st mp and level 1 wheel kick, so I've covered two very common buttons for punishes. Even better, pre pres level 2, he can still light dash straight or low for a knockdown. By sticking to this simple plan, I can get used to these situations as they come up, and over time they become natural, so I can start adding on more or trying new things. Over time I learned that CH st mp combos into cr HP which combos into lvl 1 wheel kick, which leads to a situation I'm completely used too, st lk confirm. Basically, start with a small reliable plan and as it becomes overly familiar along with the gameplay itself, you'll have the available focus to branch out and experiment. However if you go in with a big plan before you know anything consistently, you'll find yourself hesitating looking for several answers to several variable situations and finding little success converting those situations. Be patient, take it slow, and try to remember that growth takes time.

thought economy is a really good term for it. I got pretty far for a beginner (floor 7 ish) as potemkin in strive without ever doing a command grab because I had some decent damaging confirms, pokes, and anti-airs. now that I can execute pot buster and kara's easier, I still feel like I'm growing as a player at floor 8/9

Your right. I play gg strive and i main ky but I been wanting to switch and try out other characters like testament or zato but I always look at their entire kit and feel like I NEED to master everything to be effective and I get overwhelmed by all the combos too but i just need to make it simple and take it step by step

yooooooo, love this mindset 👍

Merit? Pfft, this is USSA bay-BEE!

Pot as a character has a really strong "simple" game. KBMF loops are *good* , they do good damage, and KBMF is scary, but a Pot that just walks you down, does slidehead reading your attack consistently, hammerfall breaks in after, and knows how to do both Garuda pressure and get c.S/Pot buster 50/50s is scary *and* effective. Really strong character for keeping it simple and relying on reads and good pressure.

I'm a grappler player and I'm bad at 720 so I did the same thing and focused on knockdowns and fear mongering before 720s and I'm still bad at them but I can do it sometimes lol

@@deBILLitation Fear mongering is the funniest accurate description of the grappler blender I've ever seen

@@deBILLitation honestly if you can do a move once and land it you dont even have to use it again because the fear will be in your opponents head that you might use it

Yeah, it’s kind of like a Gears of War perfect reload.

Fr like the perfect reload in gears of war. Yes you can do the regular reload, but you can also do a slightly harder reload to reload faster and do more damage? It's been a while since I played so all I remember is you just reload faster

There's a timing based attachment in apex legends lmao

@@IfWhatYes really? What attachment is it?

@@lucaswibisono1316 for the longbow I think. Never use it but I remember seeing it

I ain't gonna lie, the third YGO quote/point you brought up is something I still embarrassingly hold to be true to myself very ignorantly to this day. But it's very stupid of me to do so cause I don't bother to genuinely engage with good counter arguments to my complaint. I think, if I had to guess why I do that, hearing all the counter explanations that disprove my complaint just "feels" overwhelming to hear. Like, I come off "feeling"(key word) assuming I have to front load myself with encyclopedia levels understandings of YGO to "play properly" if Im looking to even want to start at all. Thus making me think "man, I just wanna play this card game so I can do cool shit myself too with these badass looking monsters. Not feel like I have to learn a Master's level college course before I can feel ready to play at any capacity" Its even more ridiculous for me to have this thought because I'm the one over here trying to dispell any similar sounding discouragements/negative stigmas new people have trouble with when first approaching the fighting game genre lol But like Sajam has said before, you don't need to learn everything at the start. Just pick up the basics and focus on a couple of basic strats that works for you and go from there. Then just keep striving to improve and pick up on the other stuff you were too unconfident to engage with previously. Maybe it'll finally make sense, maybe it won't, but you don't have to HAVE to learn everything to be a real good player. Someday I'll finally hunker down and give a good swing at YGO...Someday...lol

@@shman5000o Very few decks ACTUALLY have combos that long, thoigh it can feel like it as a new player. Seeing your opponent use over 20 cards you've never read can be overwhelming, and especially demoralizing when you realize you went into the game unprepared and your deck has no way to win in the first place. It's definitely the argument with the most validity, but most of the time it's a bit exaggerated.

Those statements are just exaggerated problems of card games in general but I think yugioh easily has it the worst which is why it gets the most shit from the community

To be fair, I definitely ran into 10 minute turns when I played Master Duel. As someone who was new to the game, it was not fun and definitely unbeatable for me.

@@Boyzby Yeah, I won't say it can't happen, it definitely does. Especially in Master Duel since things run a bit slower than in IRL play. It's mostly just a part of the game you have to learn to deal with. It's like playing 3rd Strike and complaining about Urien doing unnlockable, it's just a part of the game.

This is one thing I didn't like about alot of modern fgs like type lumina. An ideal fg is one where you have approachable systems like a good tutorial, good training mode, good offline content like what blazblue had. Taking away depth from an fg doesn't make it more approachable in a meaningful way, it hurts the people that care for that depth for the benefit of someone that wouldn't give the game the time of day anyway, while simultaneously not launching with things that would interest a non fg player

And from what we saw, in some situations the "not perfect" boom might be more interesting if it's slower.

"Our" voices needs to be heard you know?

spicy 😝

True, might be hard to find their actual rank tho

Diaphone already started doing that show lol check it out some time

Why not though? Every character having a natural progression into more demanding execution is part of what makes delving into characters interesting. It's fine to have characters that are less demanding, obviously, but every character should have more complex goals at some point imo. It's what lets you show that you've mastered your character.

@@felixc.4294 You CAN have a game with universal mechanics that require god execution. Like let's say every character has stance cancels, run cancels, instant air fireball/dive kicks, 1 frame links and just frame Electrics that do 200% more juggle damage. That game could exist but it would be pretty niche. Something that a few korean and pakistani nerds dominate while everyone else sucks at it. :)

@@felixc.4294 The thing is we are not talking about characters that just get access to more stuff with higher execution that adds to their base gameplan and overall fun factor. El Fuerte, C.Viper and some other characters like Ibuki are characters that if you can't do their more execution heavy stuff you really can't play them at a base level and are half way wasting your time. Ibuki needs to land her links so she can get the proper knock down off every hit because outside set play she is kind of bad. What you are talking about is a character like Xrd Sol where you can run his base gameplan with relatively low execution and that higher just adds on additional options and rewards. Even then he has a lot of alternate routing. Like yeah you could do dust loops but if you can't or do want to risk dropping the combo and losing out on that sweet oki he has a lot of less damaging but still rewarding corner routes that allows him to take advantage of his corner game.

Ok it sounded like I was talking shit about Tekken but I'm not really. The only universal mechanic that requires good execution is korean backdash. But even Tekken has good execution variety: Mishimas and stance characters are the most difficult to play. Law and Jack are pretty easy by comparison. They even have Katarina for beginners since she can just spam kicks over and over. Would Tekken be better without korean backdash? My opinion is yes because it would be 100x more accessible and fun. But I'm sure Tekken pros want it to stay because they mastered it.

@@vulcanh254 but that's what makes the movement of tekken fun and unique

Yes and no. If they get a character that's still balanced the same way as they were in comparison to the rest of the cast, and add a new tool that is very good, even if hard, it *could* be too strong, so they might just have made the rest of the kit's worse without the boom (relative to the cast). This may or may not be a big deal for his playstyle, we will not know until the game actually comes out, if the perfect boom is gonna be core to his new SF6 self, or if it kinda won't matter. Despite this though, even if it *is* core to his new gameplan, it's not like having some characters demand less or more execution is *bad* , if someone really wants to play Guile, I doubt it'll take them that long to learn this extra technique, and if they don't want to learn it, there's still the rest of the cast. It might be a big deal or it might not be to playing Guile, but I don't see it as a *bad* thing either ways.

It's not the same because every time you use a imperfect Sonic Boom is a reminder that your execution is not good enough for SF6 Guile. It would be easy to ignore if it was only used as part of a hard combo that doesn't happen often but Guile players need to throw a hundred Sonic Booms a round.

@@kevl0rneswath Except the game hasn't come out and no one really knows if throwing a regular boom instead of a perfect boom in neutral is gonna be a big deal or not, isn't it? And besides, even if it is a key aspect to Guile's toolset, which it might be, it may not really be that hard at all it's likely that this is going to be at *most* as hard as doing idk, TK note with I-No in Strive, which takes 15 mins of practice, and even if it is, Guile is in fact, not the only character in SF6 and not the easiest one either most likely, if you don't enjoy part of a character's core gameplay or execution in a game then well... Pick someone you do. I feel like a lot of people tend to either deify or condemn execution requirements in fighting games when in reality it isn't a big deal, and it's certainly not a *bigger* deal than spray patterns and quick one tap mechanical aim in games like Valorant or CS:GO.

@@AgentBacalhau If you have to tell people to pick another character because of execution, then the execution is gatekeeping, isn't it? If would actually be a lot less of a difference if it was Flash Kick that had a perfect version cause then it's a lot less necessary to learn but Sonic Boom is way too core to Guile's gameplay.

@@kevl0rneswath No, it's not gatekeeping, it's just saying "if you don't *want* to learn this skill, go do something you *want* to do, whatever that might be, in the game". By that argument telling someone to use the Phantom if they don't enjoy/wanna learn to control the Vandal's recoil, since it's basically just as good, but different, in Valorant would be gatekeeping. Telling someone they could pick Jett if they don't want to learn Raze movement in Valorant would be gatekeeping. Telling someone to pick Demoman if they don't want to learn Soldier movement in TF2 would be too. I'm not saying you're not *allowed* to play Guile, just that if you don't enjoy one of the skills he is going to require you're better off playing someone that doesn't require that skill. Everyone is allowed to play him just the same. It's just that some people will enjoy the skill requirement and some won't, and that's fine, there's a whole cast of characters cause you can't make every character meant for everyone. If you make everyone require little execution you'll alienate technical players, and if you make everyone require loads of it, you'll alienate people who don't enjoy execution requirements, as such, you make a varied cast.

Day 9 is a treasure. I also used to make that point a lot to my buddy who plays tons of RTS when he decided to try Skullgirls.

no its looking like its just pressing forward + punch on the same frame like Dan's VT2 in SFV

@@MokonaModokiES Then it's even more just requires a bit of practice-er

The secret here is: the game needs to teach this to players that want to get better and do cool stuff, something that GGST do well with Mission and Combo Maker modes.

They do teach you how to do Kara buster though.

On the other end, I can't do kbmf without getting pot buster 90% of the time, but that hasn't really impacted me at all in my Potemkin play

Man I play Ash and I don't even can do the whole install combo, I simply enjoy what I can from the character and do the combos I can perform for sure, cheers

Idk about bbcf but with +R one really frustrating thing is that, despite the quick match system being godlike, most people who use it are pretty good at the game and it's hard to find someone your skill level I suggest joining the +R discord server for that if you feel like it, makes it easier to match with new players

There's also different speeds with the different strengths if it's anything like any other sf game. So even if the perfect one is the fastest it might not be that big of a deal

facts. 👏

The only reason I still have Skullgirls installed is because I want to figure out if Big Band can play the Final Fantasy victory fanfare.

🤣 oof, "full-size job" always kills me

It does suck if youre only interested in one character though. Thankfully sf6 has normal booms and sweaty booms so you can still play guile

Play Zato anyways. He's fun as hell.

@@Lilybun yeah but trying other characters doesn’t hurt anyway! might fall in love with another character along the way

@@efronlicht1043 i’m celestial so i feel like a fake Zato wouldn’t get me far 😪 i enjoy toying around with him in training mode though maybe i’ll be more confident and try him online

@@icwatch That's definitely a good attitude to have, I think I'm just unreasonably picky when it comes to character visual design lol

ALSO let's be real. Everyone's raising a stink about Guile's perfect Booms but nobody's batting an eye at what perfect Luke combos are going to look like. They're gonna be tough with those small frame-windows to hold his punch specials for.

@@Kenzamaka Well the difference is no one likes Luke

@@Kenzamaka that is probably gonna be harder tbh

@@gwen4557 and gets angry when Luke players doing it.

I assumed that was the reference. If not what IS he referencing 🤔

Yea man I can't imagine it being anything else.

nah, its cuz their character is low tier

you might be onto something. 🤔 'dunno if it's ego or misunderstanding or something but many people do seem to share this struggle.

Wait, you struggled with Seth, one of the easiest and most free flowing characters in sfv?

But Millia is a pretty easy character to play? The only things that are particularly difficult to do is mirazh cancel septem and now the kapel air to ground combos. And even that isn't that hard.

@@blyat8832 cant say i found seth all that "easy" if you want to imply im some kind of idiot then sure we can go with that pointlessly cruel assessment why not

@@gatocochino5594 well i guess im a huge idiot then arent i thanks gato

@@KTSamurai1 I never said you were an idiot lmao. I was actually asking what you were struggling with so I could give advice since I also main the character but you know, fragile egos will always assume shit so nevermind, keep struggling

Weird, I don't remember writing this comment.

No move is more core to Guile than Sonic Boom.

oh i HELLA second this 😆

good rant! :D

some people struggle to learn more than others, so solutions for this 𝘥𝘰 exist! 👍 do you feel your struggle to execute is too much to _ever_ play❓ if not, you can *emphasize* whatever parts of your character you find most ~convenient~, or even try other characters for a temporary boost 🚀

@@yourbellboy i still play a lot of fighting games. The last one i enjoyed was GG Strive. I think my biggest issue with combos and string execution is timing and rhythm as i no sense for either xD