The Fires of Heaven Review (WOT 5) 

Moiraine: *dies* Merphy: Well that escalated quickly

I thought that Merphy was trying to pronounce ta'veren.

@@bluerectangle5794 She most definitely was

I see your point but I think that might be a bit of an insult towards Mat.

im not a fan of him at all. I just dont like how horrible of a friend he is for the first 5 or 6 books. How he just abandons Rand right away when he finds out he can channel even though Rand had just put up with him going crazy for the whole first book and really saved his life. He comes out of that experience and is like well my best friend just saved my life and put up with so much crap but now that he needs up im outta here. Plus Han decides to do whats righ in the moment, Mat accidentally does whats right usually trying to do the opposite.

@@mike-mz6yz I mean, the whole group was just getting pulled around by Moiraine, Rand did not 'put up' with/help Mat massively, they were stuck with each other and of course youw ould care if your friend was dieing. Wanting your friend to recover is one thing, being forced into the frontliens of a battle where you are certain to die (if you were not some destined chosen one) is quite another. Rand wants to play king/peacekeeper of the world, Mat is not obligated to die for him so Rand can do as he pleases. Bear in mind, Rand does everything in his power to ignore Mat and push him to the side, and OPENLY admits he now mainly sees Mat as a pawn in his game of Kingmaker and fight against the dark one. Like, I will give a friend food and painkiller if they have flu, I wont go join the army and commit suicide. Same equivalency.

@@IncubiAkster im thinking more about the 2nd and 3rd books this is before Rand totally accepts he is the dragon and before he realizes he needs to do whatever it takes. Mat immediately starts thinking Rand is going to go crazy at some point and I dont want to be near him. I get not wanting to fight a war, but he distances himself from rand before rand even thinks about fighting anyone. Really as soon as Mat is cured and thinking clearly he is like "I never want to be in the same room as rand"

@@mike-mz6yz but surely you’ve gotta remember the sheer magnitude of stigma against male channellers; they are hated and feared by all. If anything I feel it’s a testament to mat that he doesn’t completely abandon him, of course perrin is even better

Yes!!

Yeah there are a lot of people around who can see ta'veren, if Siuan knew Nynaeve was ta'veren she'd be exploiting the hell out of it

@@nickywal Not just Siuan, but there's three people who can see ta'veren in Salidar at one point. Pretty much puts an end to any argument that any of the girls were ta'veren.

Yeah but Siuan would be the one who would have seriously taken advantage of it if she could.

also Jordan explicitly said they weren't in interviews and that only the 3 guys were.

Yes but bc of their close proximity to the t'avreen they arr considered to be the next closest to the center of the weave of ages and thus next in importance in the weave of ages.

She's really getting into the characters mind.

@@fasdaVT Right. She is becoming Aes-sedai in her heart.

It did :(

i was reading for the first time and thats what i thought ,it was pretty obvious

@Northern Sticks She was the original Tsundere

Don’t think anyone with half a brain needs a reread to have understood that. :p

@@macksonedinis3670 same. First read, and it was pretty clear

I think it’s because it burn and was destroyed by the fire . But I strongly think it’s a fake out

But Matt would have been dead if Rand hadn’t cut him down

Oh yeah, you should not be on the Internet now until you're done. Don't google anything, don't even look up fanart.

@@fredsmith2067 yeah, I did that and got spoiled big time

imo i think the bratty stuff all stems from how the world is built. men are seen as trouble and women generally do most of the leading. so when these girls who are strong in their own right are forced to be lead by a man its hard for them to come to accept their roles as support and not leading.

Yeah, her and Moiraine were the best female characters by far

I actually had a shit ton of hopes for alivia, the seanchan channeler which jordan introduced and was a pretty major player. But as soon as sanderson took the reins, he totally ignored her until like one line at the very end which kinda annoyed me

Because bratty females just don't exist anywhere in the real world lol. We all have flaws and EVERYONE acts bratty on occasion, female or male. The important thing is they feel like real people, not character specific stereotypes. They make stupid out of character choices sometimes and even choices they know are bad but their pride won't let make the right one. They feel like real people. Sometimes they're kind and generous and other times they can be rude and selfish.

And Sanderson made a botch of the perrin storyline in what could have been a much better ending for his antagonist.

Perrin has some good moments too. I tear up a little every time I read that scene where he expresses confusion at the two rivers refugees showing up with bows, and Tam says the refugees said you took them in and gave them homes where no one else would, so they're Two Rivers men now too.

Avienda 😍

@@jackinthebox1993 Best girl in the series

this fascinates me. the fact that a writer can say "stood in one smooth motion" and people understand it? well, that's encouraging, anyway.

@@billyalarie929 Audiobooks do so much justice to Robert Jordan if you have read the series I would highly recommend to pick up audiobooks it will change so much for you especially if you are not a native Eng speaker like me.Plus the second go at the books is just much more satisfying and you will see how much forshadowing RJ did and you will appreciate the series much more as a whole.Even the "slog" is not that bad(even tho slog for me does not exists...well book 10 is just meh but that's another topic).

Couladin yeah. Couladin was a real prick for a big part of it all

Nynaeve is my queen and rolemodel for life.

@@jessi4894 Kick her? Elayne really was becoming violent, spending so much time with Aviendha. Someone ought to slap some sense into that pair. -Nynaeve

@Greg Hearn That comment cracked me up four months after you made it. I think Nynaeve’s hypocrisy is what made her so amusing in the beginning, and makes her overall arc so powerful.

I just finished book 5, and Nynaeve was definitely at her most irritating, bratty, and hypocritical here. But i see it as part of her overall character development - because honestly, had she not been humiliated through the book, no way would she have grovelled before Moghedien in the end, thus gaining an upper hand.

I feel almost no fantasy authors are good at that. Jordan wrote many of his younger women to be annoying first and foremost and some were written more realistically later on.

Jordan gets mad props from me for being the only author I've ever heard of with the balls to try and get a harem published. When you have fantasy protagonists that are good looking, powerful, charismatic, selfless, good, etc, multiple women wanting them makes a lot more sense than monogomy does.

THIS

@@praetorxyn the problem I have with his relationships is that most of them go this way. Oh hey that person kinda cute I love them. "Oh hey btw I love you." Intrest: "I love you too we are in love and married now"......

Adevnture co You read way different books than I did if that's your takeaway. The women basically had to browbeat him into accepting them because he was so pessimistic about himself, and it took like 10 books.

It was actually Avienda who kept saying that he hated Rand. All the tension came from her end because she felt guilty because of Elayne.

^^^. I hate the Egwene/Nynaeve scene in book 6.

This. I absolutely loved Egwene in the White Tower, I can't tell you how many times I've re-read those scenes, but I really disliked her from the moment Rand came to the white tower.

I *hated* Nynaeve at the start, and my only mate who had completed the series loved her. Now in my re reads I can't see why I ever hated her. 10/10, 100/100 Best girl.

Loomx5 I'm sort of this. I never hated her, if anything I found her "mother hen" routine amusing because she always thought she was right even when she was obviously wrong. That applies to the women in general. Some people think WoT is feminist propaganda and that the women are always right, etc. But I've read it as the women always think they're right and the men are often bailing them out without getting any gratitude for it. By the end, I'd agree best Aes Sedai for sure. I adored Birgitte and Avienda though so I'd have a tough time choosing there.

I seem to remember an amulet he wore made him immune to direct channelling. Aes Sedai travelling with him bothered him until he let one study it.

It's implied in this book, so the details of his deal aren't really that spoilerish. Mat goes in thinking he will get answers when actually he gets three requests fulfilled. 1. To have his memories filled. 2. To be free of the One Power and Aes Sedai. 3. To be away from the Eelfinn if they won't answer his questions. Unbeknownst to him, there's also a price to be paid. In his case, he gets hung by them for payment. The details on how is immune to channeling however are only examined in later books, so I'd mark that as a spoiler. Oh and his luck is twisted probability, but it pretty much always goes in his favor. The only time it doesn't is when he's directly trying to run from his destiny. It's OP as all get out.

I loved Egwene because she developed as a character so much. Before this book she essentially bowed down to Nynaeve, this book painted them more as equals which led to them seeing each other more as equals. I haven't read passed this book yet, but it made me excited to see there new relationship dynamic play out.

You let another woman touch you!! *throws man's skin like a balloon*

The best part of the audiobooks is when you realize that Kate and Michael pronounce something differently. :) Really though the two of them are absolutely great. I just finished the entirety of the series on Kindle/Audible and I have to say that Whispersync is a godsend!

@@RichFreeman I'm bouncing between Libby and Audible. My job makes it really easy to read pdf on the job as well. So where my first read through took 9 months, I'm on book 8 at about 2 months. Its nuts.

@@RichFreeman I know what you mean, really threw me at first. When I first heard it I thought, "It's cool, they've probably have never met." Nope, they're married.

Easily worst of the first six. Amazing ending, but an utter snoozefest throughout.

Probably meant at the time of writing this book

I'm only on book six, but I completely agree. Fully expecting to see her back within a book or two. The dead giveaway is that we don't get her POV when she "dies".

"this series never failed to surprise me with the directions it took" yes and no, with a second read one sees the foreshadowing For example: Mat pull´s a "Blood and Ice Cream trilogy" move in Book 1

@@EnigmaG1 yea on a second read its all there for sure, but i doubt many see it first time through if they haven't been spoiled

The women's attitudes towards men is probably my least favorite thing in these books. If it were good-natured ribbing that would be one thing but it goes way beyond that!

Their attitudes are a result of the world Jordan built and the position they expect to hold in that world. Wisdom is essentially a female mayor and healer rolled into one. Aes Sedai are perceived as the shadow rulers of the world. Elayne is supposed to become the Queen of one of the mightiest nations in the world. However, women of lower relative stature or from other nations do not view men the same way. Min doesn't, which is why Rand finds her uncomplicated. The Aiel have their own male/female dynamics but they subtly differ from those of the Wetlands. The Atha'an miere are very different, something which we're first shown when the women speak with so much more fondness of men during the voyage to Tanchico in book 4, and then later when we get more of them from book 7 onward. Seanchan are basically a fully egalitarian society and are never shown to speak down to men, because their society treated all channelers as equally responsible for the Breaking. More to the point, when Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve look down their noses at men Jordan's writing undermines their beliefs. He's telling us constantly that they are wrong in their views. He gives them opportunities to see the error in their ways and to grow, and whether they take those opportunities is up to them as characters.

@@johanjarvinen Bingo! And it's heavily implied (maybe explicitly stated even) that there was a time where it was the opposite essentially where male channelers were clean and females went crazy and men held power etc.

@@ryanpatrick1875 Not so sure about that... If you mean the Age of Legends, that was Jordan's "ideal" government where both genders worked together in harmony. It's a common theme of the books, that the greatest feats of the Age of Legends were achieved by men and women working together. And of course that when the male and female Aes Sedai were unable to find a way to work together at the end of the War of Power this lead to Lews Therin having to lead a contingent of only men to try and re-seal the bore, which allowed for the Dark One's counterstroke, the taint on Saidin and the breaking of the World. Whether in some other turning of the Wheel the female half of the source has also been tainted is pure speculation as far as I know.

That's kind of the point. I always enjoyed the irony of the women thinking themselves superior and being wrong.

SPOILERS!! Seriously, is it so hard to remember someone is a first-time reader?

tye burnham c’mon man, its worth it to finish the series I promise

I am the same. I have read books 1- 6 three times but can't seem to continue!

It's extremely worth it. I can't reconcile your feelings without spoilers, but IMO the last three books are the best ones.

I just finished this book, and your comment got me excited to read the next one.

And I also think it will give Lan the ability to bond to Nyneave and Moiraine will come back. I do not believe her or Lanfear are dead.

Also Book 4 was the highlight of the series for me as well. Unfortunately, I was disappointed with how Jordan handled Perrin through most of the middle of this series.

Rands' happy harem made me take a break after book 11... I still haven't gotten back to it, and am currently re-listening to First Law.

@@Mhidraum Book 10 really broke me. I hope to get back into it because I hear the last few books are really good though!

yes Avi and Min didn't cross paths in the book

Most people recommend it between Books 10 and 11, which is the publication order. Methinks Jordan intentionally released the book at that time because ....reasons.