Strange how the gods seem to be part of a giant body, the 2 fingers and 3 fingers obviously make a hand, the giants god is the face with the eye, mohgs God is an egg inside a giant pelvis, its like one great grand god that has been torn apart and turned into different religions. Edit: TY for all the insight and viewpoints also TY for the likes. Probably my most liked comment ever lol.
Yeah, the splitting of one god into a plethora of deities - and not just two - is likely, imo. What I find equally fascinating and annoying is that these "real" and outer gods are intangible (wild, I know. So unusual). They are sitting in another layer of reality - maybe each in their own domain - while interacting with the physical realm. In DS it's all quite different, and so is BB in that regard. And then there is IRL religion... lol. I enjoy that aspect, but I still soooo want to know more about them. Yet they are essentially unfathomable to the denizens of the ER universe and also us. The Elden Ring is described as a concept, I believe, yet it is visible and parts can be claimed and possessed, despite being the template for reality. So it is somewhat like the Outer Gods.
The egg is just miquella, not the formless mother, who is ya know, formless. The egg was already present from elphael as you can see other cocoons in rooms before you get to malenia so it's not related to the formless mother.
In my view, originally there was one god, the One Great, who then split into many outer gods. Each of the new gods represents body parts and concepts, such as: the Formless Mother (Blood), the 3 Moons (Eyes), the Fell God (another eye), the God of Death (Death), The God of Rot (Rot&Rebirth), The Great Star Cluster (left Hand, the "Manus Celes"), ... And, lastly, the Dragon God (right Hand), who then split into the Greater Will (2 fingers, Order) and into the Frenzied Flame (3 fingers, Chaos)
Maybe morgott also encountered the formless mother but unlike his brother who embraced it he rejected her power and tried to suppress it deep within him so that he may never defy the golden order which is he's so angry in his boss fight because you pushed him into using the thing he despise the most Happy birthday pal
My theory is that, since Morgott and Mogh are twins, that when Mogh gained the blessing of the Formless Mother, Morgott's blood simultaneously erupted as well just due to their close familial connection.
@@MiroredImage I'd even go one step further and suggest the possibility that Mohg and Morgott are similar to characters like the two Ds and Radagon & Marika. D's armour overtly states that there are two men known as "D", both of whom possess two bodies, but share a single soul. They are the same person in spirit and when one D dies, the other simply continues on in his stead, as though nothing had changed. The (spoiler) reveal that Marika and Radagon are literally the same person shares this theme as well, in that they are two separate beings, but share a soul. Perhaps Mohg and Morgott are much the same, in that they, as twins, share a soul much like D and when one of them encountered the Formless Mother, both of them experienced a burning of their blood; blood Morgott overtly refers to as "accursed". There's theories that the Omen are, collectively, cursed by the Formless Mother and that they all share this blood, but it could also be that Mohg and Morgott's affliction as Omen might be a bit of a misdirection and that their Omen status is inconsequential to the truth of their accursed blood: the Formless Mother and their shared lineage.
They're polar opposites. One leaned into being an Omen and the other Detested. Morgott gets so angry when you spill his blood near the erdtree too. He sees it as a defilement.
@@Armameteus i dont think they're like D in that sense. They were active at the same time and were two entirely different personalities with different goals. D and D share a single soul. This theme of duality is reccuring throughout the game in different forms. Just like Miquella and Malenia being distorted mirror images of Radagon and Marika. The rest of your theory sounds very plausible
Ghostflame enjoyer here. I think the point of the different flames are different concepts. Trinas is Dreams and Sleep, Ghostflame is of true death, The Princes Flame is of Life in Undeath, Frenzy is Madness and Entropy (or the inverse), The flame of Gelmir is Avarice, The Golden flame is Order and Faith, The Fell gods flame is just destruction, Godslayers flame is murder. The reason why the Moon doesn’t have flame is because it is in the Unbelief. I suppose each flame of a god could be concepts made by man to describe things. Think back to Berserk, the God Hand and the Idea of Evil were born of a desire to justify why things were awful and so it became god to them, born of a feeling stronger and more widely felt by all. Suffering. I guess you could say each facilitate a purpose in the hearts of man, and to those who follow these virtues. In that sense, all of these flames are a sort of Faith. But the moon represents Unbelief, or is a god of unbelief. In rationality and explanation through reason and not faith in a god that doesn’t have your best interest at heart.
So what you're trying to say is that the reason the Moon doesn't have a flame is because the Moon represents the lack of a flame. Another thing is that the Moon is most of the time associated with water and guess what extinguishes fire..... Water. What I'm saying is if the Moon would have a flame, it would be water, because water symbolizes stillness and purity or in other words void or lack there-of, or as you put it, Unbelief
@@lucaluca3107 Thats basically what Im saying, The Moon isnt an outer god like the others. It doesnt ask to be worshipped or even be recognized as a thing of worship. All that I have seen in my readings of items is that The Moon doesnt have a worship. The Age of Stars does, but its more or less reverence towards a prophecy. The moon doesnt seem to even derive power from anything like belief or sacrifices or runes/souls. It simply is, like all things in the world. An unbiased watcher and a guide in the night, which is why I say Reason and Unbelief
I believe that the Prince of Death's Flame is "Primordial Flame" rather than tainted flame. It's hinted that the Erdtree is grafted atop the original Great Tree that wrapped it's roots around the Primordial Crucible. The Omens are blessed by the Crucible, such that they grow horns and often other animalistic features. Only under the Golden Order are the Omens considered cursed; in a previous civilization, they would've been considered blessed. Godwyn is, presently, wrapped up and corrupting the roots of the original Great Tree that predates the Erdtree and is presumably also connected to the Primordial Crucible through those roots. It stands to reason then, that the Primordial Flames of the Omens (as seen with the Omen Bairn and Morgott's Phase 2 sword) is the same or similar flame to the Flames of Death that Godwyn grants. I feel like the golden flames of the Golden Order/Placidusax are stripped down versions of the Primordial Flame, as they're both golden bu the G/P flames are missing the "death" part that the other flames seem to contain.
While its possible that in a previous era they might be considered blessed, and maybe when they first appeared they weren't cursed, thry are most definitely cursed now as a result of their terrible treatment. They're constantly haunted by nihhtmares of horned beings (even ones who have never meant omen hunters), the ones with horns can channel cursed spirits, and morgots one item is an omen item that summons cursed spirits. They are most definitely cursed or tainted now, possibly by the dead spirits of their fellow omen.
Very interesting theory! I've got a partially theory of my own and I wonder if the ideas can be combined. Of particular interest to me is how the rune of death interacts with forms of flame. Each death-associated flame has a black current through it, and I posit that each of these arose from a different relationship of the rune of death with the world. Let's start with malikeths black flame. A black and red flame that was likely created when the rune of death was sealed in maliketh's black blade. I would guess that this is red because Maliketh is a beastman and thus associated with the red power of farum azula we see from dragons. Before this point we know that the Gloam Eyed Queen had the rune of death, and this was taken from her. This Queen was chosen as an Empyrean by "the fingers".... but extremely notably the text does NOT say the two fingers. My personal theory here is that she was chosen by the five fingers before the split of the two and three. When that occurred long ago it triggered a war akin to the shattering. The Gloam Eyed Queen took the rune of death and attempted to wield it against interlopers, but was ultimately unsuccessful. That leaves two remaining eras corresponding to ghostflame and the "cursed" primordial flame of omens and the prince of death. If we look at ghost flame it associated not only with cold, but also potentially with the night--the eternal cities also feature blue flame. I would guess this was the "original" flame of the death rune during an original "age of stars." A time when there was only death and cold. At some point the One Great came to the world and brought life with it, binding the rune of death within the primordial elden ring of the crucible.
I think Morgott is using blood flame in desperation and knows it because of his brother. In my mind, he was likely deeply aware of Mohgs dealings who may have taught him a trick or two just to entice him into joining the side of the Formless Mother
The element fire in hermeticism - aka western magick - represents the will of being, of both the birthless beings (gods, angels, daemons, etc...) and the birthed beings (human beings). It is distinguished from spirit/ether for being an element of eagerness, power and imposition of the spirit, but it is not the spirit itself for the spirit pervades all elements and stands above them all. Based on this I believe Miyazaki chose fire to represent the manifestation of all outer gods' wills, since those outer gods themselves do not have a material form (for they are pure spirit/ether) and must find ways to interact phisically with the world. Most of those gods have prophets - like Shabriri and Mogh - or followers which whom they can connect and exert influence, but they must also literally empower their chosen ones with something, and that empowerment is fire: Fire is literal power that equals the methaphorical will of an outer god. If you find this explanation too complex, just think of the imagery of the Holy Ghost in Christianity - which has fire as it's symbol - and the gifts it gives according to pentecostal theology. It is like that, but in a videogame. Also, Marika would be like an avatar or incarnation of the Greater Will since her powers explicitly exceed those of all other outergods' messangers. That explains the choice of Jesus-like iconography for her.
@@svolozhanin7627 Well said. In hermeticism lightning is perceived as a kind of fire or as a mix between fire (will) and air (thought), thought I think this might not imply much for this analogy of fire and divine will
Real good video. *One flame missed tho (tho I think every flame video has and I literally only just realized they are thing) is - the liquid light blue flame of the Regal Deer gods that spills out of the baby deer head. ***Edit, originally I thought guy also missed the Glintstone dragon fire but as pointed out below, it is covered about 9 min in***
I grouped the glintstone fire with the dragon fire mentioned at 9:34, but the spiritflame is definitely one that I missed entirely. What's weird is that the "spiritflame arrow" item descriptions talks about ghostflame, but it looks like spiritflame is something else entirely. Great catch!
@@VLimit11 oh shoot, so you did. Sorry, I like to write down comments as I am listening and frequently I assume something is missed when really it just hasn't come up in the video yet. The Regal Deer Gods are the most confusing imo, I think they are one of the last pieces that requires decoding everything else in order to understand.
@@VLimit11 I don't think spirit flame is a thing, the ancestral infant's head calls the blue stuff "spirit vapor" and says that it creates a geyser, so it's not really a flame at all. Spiritflame arrows are most likely just a translation error or a synonym for ghostflame.
The Blasphemous Flame/Taker's Flame is my favorite. Both mechanically, because it's so useful, but also because I love Rennala's children, and it's unique to Rykard. In particular, I like how before going off the deep end, Rykard was in it with Ranni, so it felt satisfying using his sword to help bring about his sister's vision.
i love your videos because you're not just another pale imitation of Vaati, as so many lore videos/creators are now. You have you're own style and you're able to articulate your knowledge beautifully and efficiently.
I always liked the little chunk of max hp lost on true Destined Death damage as a representation of the Rune "severing" immortality from it's target. so when it hits a god, that 'chunk' of hp is the part of them that cannot usually be killed
I believe morgott’s flame is misunderstood, mogh was not granted blood flame by the formless mother, she erupted his accursed blood in flame according to his bloodboon, and what you see with morgott is his blood literally erupting, as he can longer contain it’s curse, which is apparently somehow tied to omenhood, the blade that morgott wields suggests his blood is actually what is inside of and empowering his sword, so it seems to me that the holy Bairn attack, is a result of omens with horns, and blood flame is actually the curse of royal omen blood, the power i suggest is given by the formless mother, is the Nihil and growing the wings, aka, she grants him the power to groom him into a vassal perhaps, but she didn’t give him blood flame
@@mesotheeliomait's a RU-vid comment section bro a lot of people type on their phone and type in a texting format people complain about it but if it bothers someone so bad to the point they can't comprehend it then the person complaining needs more English classes than the one typing. It's a very ironic mentality.
Happy birthday man. I was wondering about something. If the frenzied flame wants the world to be one again would that make it less chaotic and more ordered because there won't be change only statis, and when hyetta says that the greater will brought flaws into the world wouldn't that count as chaos, maybe the gods had an ideological switch.
I think the point of view to adopt to understand the flamme of frenzy is that the very existance of separate and fixed thing and being is a form of order and that the flamme of frenzy don't want chaos in the sense of maximum unpredictability it want chaos in the sense of the less ordered state of existance (so chaos in the entropic sense)
@@gouell2290 interesting point, but the life is somewhat chaotic and the frenzied flame wants to go back to single state of being which is the one. I'd argue that the one is the ultimate form of order where you don't have change
Actually People used to think in ancient times that fire are way for humans to communicate with Gods So in elden ring every different flames is a way to communicate with a different God For example in the hellenistic Greek gods people used to burn the animals they sacrifice so it can reach the gods Even in the abrahamic religions there is a story of moses speaking to God with a burning buch
All these flame types and the detail put in got me missing Hitman Reborn series again. Seriously, the devs musta been hardcore fans to do all this 11:57 That or......these flame types are part of a crazy “flame only” element system/unused left over assets they never fleshed out completely in time for the release of dark soul 3 or somethin Also happy birthday 🎊🎉🎂
Imagine Three Fingers and Lord of Chaos enjoing the unified world, devoid of everything, turned to ash... ... then suddenly they hear: "In the Age of Ancients..." xDD
I like to think the Ghost Flame was the original form of the Black Flame and thus the Rune of Death, with the Death Birds acting as sort of grim reapers before the Erdtree’s soul-siphoning. Interesting how Destined Death went from magic damage, to fire damage, and then to holy damage
I think that the flame of ambition is the flame inside a player. The player is striving like a flame burning bright and most will encounter Margit and have their asses beaten. Many will surpass but a few will quit never to play again. And that is what I think that is what Morgott means when he is extinguishing thy flame.
Personally my favorite are the Black Flames tied to Death. I'm bigger fan of death than chaos, blood and ruin. There is also the fact that the narrative significance of the black flames to the story of the game and lore adds to their allure.
i built a character that is supposed to be the last direct descendant of the fire giant. his goal is to inherit (or otherwise take by force) all the flames present in the world, such as the ghostfalme, black flame, blood flame, giants flame/flame of ruin and finally the Flame of Frenzy. he was hoping that collecting the previously mentioned flames would prepare him for the intensity of the frenzied flame, but that was not the case. he goes insane like it does with all, and he literally watches the world burn as this was his purpose.
There's also the flame attack from the putrid tree spirit (the scarlet rot one) that inflicts scarlet rot (it could be impure like the glintstone dragon fire tho). And if you want to reach and include all flames, theirs the beast torch, sentry torch, etc. It's also debated if normal fire is linked to ruinous fire.
A small detail about fire helping contain the rot. The weapons that Iji forges are said to be resistant to the rot by the witchhunter Jerren. Iji used a troll hammer to smith and keeps up traditions of trolls/giants. The link of smithing and the Fell flame god is also stated. Fire has a bit of an adverse effect to rot, like the Siofra river, and the water god/fairy of the blind swordsman. Could this imply something about the flux of moving water and flame disrupts the enigmatic rot god? Is the rot not a grounded, natural, or based form of flux that the prior two may be implied to be?
Cursefire is used by Revenants, Wraithcallers, Omen, and in the Shriek of Milos, a unique skill of Dung Eater's sword, which was once the spine of a small Troll.
Flame of the Redmanes has that severe poise damage because Radahn's soldiers would have learned to imbue a bit of that Gravity oomph into their spells.
I just discovered your channel and although I was going to subscribe, your birthday callout and since it was my bday a few days ago made it definite :)
I... just... no idea... all the flame... Happy Birthday Belated! Frkn awesome vid! I think this subject can be prolonged. Long form presentation on everything we know of each flame omg... I'm so impressed with From rn. Bottom line fire = mobility/life/energy and then its opposite, space/nothing/moon = immobility/death/heretical ice magics... snow crone dlc pleeeease! This supports my personal head-canon that e.r. is the prequel to ds. Gwyn... ya bastard... I firmly believe the One Great is not where all life came from. This is where religion, or human interpretation, come into play. Hyetta and co. can believe what they want. Their manipulated psycho-desire is to go back into the womb. Which is to say return to a time before they were alive. That is to say die. The crucible absorbed all life and calculated the best way to manipulate this land. The power to do so is tremendous and is likely the power of the 3 fingers hidden away. As it has absorbed all types of material before, it can certainly make everything "One again". It's ability to do this is exploited/appropriated by humanity, albeit under its influence, but given its own meaning. An "out" if you will, from the order. However, being that they are under direct influence, and yet the Greater Will has already abandoned its project, i am pretty damn confident that the 3-fingers is the Greater Will's self destruct mechanism. There will be no Oneness. Just a ruined planet, meaning nothing more than a burnt af casserole. Fools. (Also it is a hilarious, imo, expression of hegelian historical optimism. ex. Capitalism is but another progressive step toward all of us becoming one with god. Mind you, "civilizing" or enslaving tribal peoples was part of this godly process... or even more to the point, the justification in every American schoolbook that Hiroshima/Nagasaki saved lives...) Gotta work but I'm already fiending for the next vid! 👍🔥
Not sure if you covered this but I didn't see it mentioned. St Trina's flame is also connected to a god. St Trina's is apperently miquella, who seems to also have been a chosen empyrean who rejected his destiny, like his sister. Although that's speculated from cut content as far as I'm aware.
V-Limit, I'm subscribed, love all your videos and the way you tell / explain the lore of elden ring your way. Happy birthday and thanks for the great content you provide!
A story of multiple lovecraftian Prometheus on the lands between Like to think that just like how Griffith in his torture got visited by the god hand envoys but by the formless mother..
The formless mother may be the god of the crucible. Considering that Morgott shouldn't really have any relation to the FM otherwise, but is still able to use bloodflame. Blood is also symbolic of familial ties and closeness. Formless also means a liquid/gaseous form, such as metal in a crucible.
Hmm, I would be happy if there was a glintstone space flame, but ghostflame seems cool and the sleep flame. Maybe there will be a sorcerous blue flame in the dlc lol
See, I always thought what spills out of Morgott as he moves to second phase was -water.- Especially considering that it begins to rain and his arena is covered in water in phase two. Similar to how Malenia, Rennala, Caria Loretta and the Elden Beast fights also feature water as a contrasting point.
the flame of death the black knife assasins use is much more light in color then malikeths which can help proof that the godslayer flames are related to the rune of death directly
there's also the black flame of the gloam eye'd queen. flame burns trees, most likely the flame symbolizes their opposition to the erd tree. or maybe the flame represents a godly source of power
Hello, i think the theme of Fingers(hands) fire and eyes can be related to human evolution and with a mythological angel.at first the beastmen used the power of gods of their age lightning that's why their tech in their weapons are different from current culture . having been granted hands and fingers a tool to being able to control fire(as you can see how seals able you to use fire incantations)through fate everyone discovered a sources of flame. and being able to see flame resulted in influence of the eyes and mind. the analogy of how our fate was first dependent on our physicals body as flame is distractive power of the nature .
ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-n8a1iRt3er4.html as you can see this video eyes are a window to the soul and in the fate of vyke he had to burn his eye balls burn his soul and become a vassal for the flame of friendzy a vassal of chaos as marika is a vassal of elden ring(order) so soul relating to eyes(a metaphysical part of our evolution) and fingers relate to a physical part of our evolution and the role of the flame in being an opposition to this metaphysical state of being as a destructive source
Currently looking into it, though I have a lot of stuff lined up for now. SmoughTown has a really good video about Miquella/St. Trina if you're a fan of his longer video lengths
