Flash is right? He committed a slippery slope fallacy... If you won't let people have nuclear bombs you're going to end up killing people who don't recycle aren't you?!
That's part of the reason that Clark went astray, the flash died too. Funnily this was also the plot of the justice league episode for the cartoon series where they went to a universe where they all went evil. Who was the one that triggered it? The flash dying. Lois was still even alive in that world's timeline. They all went tyrant after the flash died.
@@chaosdirge4906Not just died but he was murdered by lex Luthor. The president of the United States in this universe it showed that no matter how much lives they save a corrupt system could betray anyone of them for doing a civil duty.
The thing about the flash is that he is NOT stupid, at all, he just likes to be silly rather than uber serious (like batman or wonder woman) or simply smiling and waving like superman, he engages and interacts with people, random people.
The Flash could easily become the smartest man alive by reading every encyclopedia in just 1 minute or less. Sure, he would retain the info for one hour, but he would be the smartest man alive for one hour.
Flash just committed the ol slippery slope fallacy, not very genius. If you won't let people have nuclear bombs you're going to end up killing people who don't recycle aren't you?!
Flash has the best injustice arc imo, He sides with Superman because he understands why he kills joker and he’s his friend, but once he sees what Superman is becoming, he switches sides.
@@suicide1015 wasn't that in the game(s)? I watched the movie (which seems to be the closest to the comics afaik) and I don't even remember Shazam being present in the whole thing
It's a shame that Flash's full potential is never really used. I can understand why the writers don't make him omnipotent as he could be for the sake of having an interesting story, but there's no reason he should be losing to anyone. Sometimes he can run so fast he can time travel. Sometimes he's so durable he can withstand nigh infinite g's. Sometimes he can run at like 40 mph and get knocked out by something that couldn't kill even a regular human.
@@giovanisatiro30 I suppose there's always the faint possibility that they were being super predictable (even something moving at light speed can be intercepted if you know where it's going and can move into position ahead of time), although considering it's catwoman of all things, that's quite the absurd logic stretch the author made.
@@norrecvizharan1177 That's how Polnareff beat the Hanged Man in JoJo but somehow a sizeable group of reading impaired "fans" have decided that means Silver Chariot can move at light speed. I'm like "HE LITERALLY SAYS HE JUST PUT HIS SWORD IN THE VERY PREDITABLE STRAIGHT LINE HANGED MAN WOULD BE FORCED TO TRAVEL!"
Same problem with Superman. Its very hard to write a story revolving around an omnipotent main character. You would have to go to other avenues of intrigue, like emotional and humor like One Punch Man, or the moral and philosophical aspect like good Superman stories. Otherwise you just get powercreep like Dragon Ball Z and Goku
One thing very few people seem to realize is that really, the Flash *could* have stopped Superman at any time. He just never really wanted to hurt his friend. DC confirmed a long time ago the Flash's infinite mass punch is capable of outright killing anything short of celestials, and even a lot of them wouldn't exactly be in great shape after eating it.
Batman confirmed ... if Barry Allen dies then all things would cease to exist including Clark. He outran death physically and traveled through multiple universes and dimensions long before he was a justice league member ... then man basically created himself during Flashpoint on the series... and the movie (animated). He's the one person vandal savage was scared of. And he happens to be the only person who keeps his humanity in check at all times ... he's never disassociated from the people he cares for.
@@legoman81020 After which he proceeded to die (again) anyway. They really need some guidelines to keep the dumb from escalating because of each new writer being so determined to undermine their immediate predecessor.
Even superman agreed. The reason the League called him out was because they felt betrayed. Rightfully so, as they were used against them, but that isn't the point. Batman prepares for all outcomes, including one for himself. He leaves the League, not out of betrayle or anger, but out of them not willing to see the danger they can be if they so choose. Superman agreeing with Batman, and giving him a weapon to put him down shows his agreement that Batman was reight to have a plan just in case.
I was wondering why his plan against Flash was so much more extreme - but if he possesses capability to learn this *fast*, that was not only reasonable, but even mild.
The flash is such a strange character. He is one of the most known heroes and has one of the most common powers (Super Speed), but the way DC uses it to reveal that just being incomprehensibly fast is enough to make you almost a god is both very interesting and terrifying.
Super speed is just busted all around. It’s simple, which makes it so op. When you can make actions when the enemy cannot, it is pretty simple to just triumph. Someone with super speed can finish the fight before the enemy even realises they are in one.
To be fair, he doesnt ONLY have superspeed. He is virtually invincible physically until the author dont want him to be. You cant tell me a punch only half the speed of light doesnt evaporize the Flash's entire arm the moment he makes contact with anything. The speed force is what makes him super duper busted, and that thing is basically just plot armour like how Superman is so invincible. But even the Speed force doesnt follow its own rules to make him this busted. In reality, if he tried to touch Superman, whatever touched will break. Superman stands still in the face of steel bullets. You cant tell me a human arm is tougher than steel and metal and metal bullets CRUMBLE in front of Superman. The Flash could go as fast as he wants with the speedforce protecting him from physics repercussions and his superspeed healing his injuries, but every time he punches Superman at super speed, he gets a shattered and MESSED UP arm while Superman didnt even notice a thing. The Flash would do nothing to Superman but hurt himself. Best shot he has is run around, find kryptonite, THEN fight Superman. Without kryptonite aka plot device Flash wouldnt be able to even tickle Superman.
@@Ardeleus Uh, yeah no. I don't think you understand what the Speed Force does. Force in mass times acceleration. So, although Barry doesn't have a lot of mass, his mind blowing speed makes it so he can put out tremendous amounts of force. In the real world, thanks to Newton's third law of motion, Flash would also feel that tremendous force and it would obliterate him. However, the Speed Force makes it so he doesn't feel his own speed. So to him, he'd only feel the same amount of force as if he punched Superman at regular speed. Which wouldn't hurt very much. This is also why he can use superspeed in the rain but bullets still hurt him.
As any tabletop player will easily tell you, having better action economy than your enemy is almost always broken. It doesn't matter if an enemy can kill you in two hits and tank fifteen hits from you if you can hit him sixteen times before he can hit you twice.
My best guess would be that it basically skips like half the pixels or something to let him fill the rest in himself to make it less inefficient by taking advantage of all his extra processing speed.
People like to forget that flash is or rather can be faster than time itself Same as superman likes to forget this. Flash is playing at half speed. The other half is used to think
Not only that but, Flash is a character who's dealt with time travel on various occasions. He knows firsthand how critical one decision effects entire outcomes. In a game like chess, where every move counts, this perfectly represents Flash's psyche.
This scene makes me want to read the comics. At first, I was turned off by evil Superman. But the idea that the Fastest Man Alive understands the consequences of rulership (same as the consequences of abject criminality) because he can simultaneously simulate multiple outcomes is simply incredible. And it's rare to have such insight in a work of fiction. Usually, the writers are pushing for more Communism, not less.
Has all the time in the world to look up what a slippery slope fallacy is but committed it nevertheless, the ridiculousness of what he said can be shown in opposite terms: "If you won't let people have nuclear bombs you're going to kill people who don't recycle too aren't you?!"
@@V01DIORE He saw that Superman was going down a dark path. Superman wanted to keep humanity safe to an extreme degree. The issue was that Superman only mentioned what directly kills people by violence but that doesnt keep people safe because people can still use other weapons or even drugs. Superman only used the extreme example of getting rid of all guns because it was the best example he could use to convince someone. Violence against innocent people. No one wants that. But there is far more nuance to it and that is what Flash brought to the table. The aspect of Freedom. The Freedom to choose to live the way you wish to live while still being a decent human being. Superman getting rid of all guns even all nuclear armaments wouldnt have done any good. It would have made people resent him as a dictator. Also: Talking about Fallacies is cringe when you dont understand a single thing about the topic thats being talked about. Stop trying to sound smart and start using your brain.
@@Icemario87 Its 100% worth a read, you are gonna enjoy it. Superman is as you can probably see here, turning towards a dark path. I dont wanna spoil too much but lets just say that this is the Batman V Superman we always wanted just not neccesarily as perfect as it could have been on normal terms.
It's too bad that when writers come up with superheroes, they don't put an initial limiter in their superpower, (I know Flash has a high calorie maintenance, but that is rarely talked about, and in the TV show they just gave him a big appetite) and in the latest movie he ate a burrito and was full. They gotta give them more limits so that they don't need to dumb them down in order to nerf them. Like in the latest animated movie where he got gassed. Like, cmon, he can think at super speed! (if not light speed as mentioned in the comics)
A small detail you didn't point out. At first, Superman is saying checkmate, as he is winning the game, but also- at least for now- winning the argument. But once Flash starts saying checkmate, it's because he's debunking Superman's points and winning the game, and with increasing speed. It's a smart way to show how smoothly the dialogue flows as until you read the whole conversation and see where it's leading, you just assume that every "checkmate" is the end of a game. But as you point out, checkmate isn't for the game. It's for the argument.
I mean it is for the game that they're actually saying it, but it has the second deeper meaning of the conversation. The checkmate is the end of the game, but you also know the whole time that they also mean the argument, and flash keeps winning more and more as superman gets more and more off his game
@@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868You're exactly right! He eventually starts winning the games AND the conversation. And each game humbles Superman ever further because it goes to show him that even though he's confident about a certain situation (he asks Flash if he knows how to play chess, indicating he had some level of skill himself) he's eventually shown that he may still lack the foresight needed to win both the games and the reasoning behind borderline dictatorship.
@@lesterivan282862 I see what you’re saying, but I’m also assuming that they’re playing so fast that, everytime one of them is in check, the next move gets predicted and checkmates the king. Essentially, they’re playing so fast that check is just an irrelevant part of the game at that point bc you’re GONNA get checkmated playing at their level.
This movie felt more like half justice lord and half injustice with neither side being good. Mostly because Flash dying is terrible for Injustices story. His whole thing was he was the skeptical one.
One of my favorite Flash scenes is in _Kingdom Come._ He's in super speed all the time, invisible, everywhere, fixing every wrong in the city before it can even happen. Not even a scene as much as just a couple panels, but think of the implications. On the one hand, there can be no crime, no traffic accidents, you fumble a sack of groceries and he catches it for you, literally nothing can go wrong. There will never be a school shooting, never a single baggie of crack in your community. He can probably even make the trains run on time every time, stop dangerous weather, and restore power in a millisecond if there's an outage. Sounds like paradise. On the other hand, Flash is watching you pee. No matter where you are or what you're doing, Flash is there. Flash knows what brand of laundry detergent you buy. He knows your browser history, because gotta make sure there's nothing illicit. He knows every off-color joke you ever told at the water cooler, whether it was reported to HR, and whether they issued a warning. He knows the last time you had sex, with whom, for how long, AND, no matter how enthusiastic your partner might have seemed, Flash knows what they said to their friends about it later and if it's negative enough he just might decide you're guilty of something and then there's nowhere you can hide because he's literally everywhere at every moment........it's a perfect nightmare if you think about it. Even seemingly harmless stuff like catching every stumbling toddler is worrisome. Toddlers need to fall, it's how they learn. And you're relying on Flash to stay good, to mostly leave people alone. What if he decides alcohol causes too much trouble? Well, there just won't be any anymore. Gun ownership? Yeah, that's gone. What if he decides that microexpression on your face means you're going to commit a crime, and he simply takes you to prison before you have an opportunity? What if he decides mean words are no longer allowed, and you have six hundred layers of duct tape over your mouth midsentence? And that's without getting nasty. There's nothing he can't do to you. No lightspeed punch required. He already has all the time in the world and there is literally no way to ever hold him accountable.
Yeah that's worse than Injustice superman by a huge margin. It's basically doing what supes does but perfectly. Keeping everyone safe but at the cost of everyone's privacy and freedom and it's all decided by one man who's essentially a godlike dictator. But this one you can't even see and as soon as you express any hope of resistance he immediately catches you. Nightmare Scenario.
Flash is probably one of the smartest people alive. Or at least he should be. He has something that no one else has. Time. Time to think. Time to read. Time to internalize and turn learning into patterns and conceptualize. It just doesn’t seem like it to us because he does it so fast.
@@Jagar_Tharn same logic: You want to ban murder? What’s next ban guns? Then what kill all people who don’t recycle? Boom Air right argument to make murder legal. Or a slippery slope fallacy
@@chaosjoey123 Then again, if you could _personally_ interdict _any_ human action on Earth because you move at the speed of light, it might be a reasonable position to take. The Flash sees human government as being pointlessly slow and irrelevant. He _is_ the de facto government.
I love how cocky Barry is around evil Clark. I mean what’s Clark really gonna do, touch him? Sure. Clark could kill Barry with a punch, if he can land one.
Personally, I think I like the film's way of portraying this scene a lot. It was with Mr. Terrific instead of the flash, and instead of several games it was only one, with the points of the topic of conversation being analogous with checks rather than mates. I like the change to checks, because it implies that the argument isn't settled just because you made a point that seems reasonable, just like how you don't win at chess just because you made a check. Only when Superman fails to make a reasonable argument back does Mr. Terrific declare mate. Regardless, this is amazing writing on either part. Hats off to the Injustice crew.
Agreed. I only saw the clip like 2 months ago of the chess match, but i liked it better. I always saw chess matches between two people, as if they were debates. And as they take piece after piece putting each other into check, slowly holes are being poked into their logic, as well as points being made when putting someone into check, as the king is being protected or retreating. Superman finding that his idea is fallible and only thinking short-term, with his king being pushed further into a corner and safe, from something that's opposing what he wants to work towards. everything can be said with just one game.
I think it just works better since Mr T is basically a super genius. The Flash might be able to think faster technically, but that wouldn't imply a greater reasoning skill. Thinking fast doesn't necessarily mean thinking right, you csn have systematic flaws in your reasoning that are minor enough at any given time so as to never be fixed unless you explicitly introspect to fix them. Mr T had a reserved, educated, almost dissociated personality that fits these sorts of conceptual arguments a lot better than "I think real fast like". He knew supes wasn't going to take no for an answer, and he knew he couldn't stop him, so it was almost a soft self sacrifice for him, whereas supes really has no way to deal with flash. Plus, its not really skillfull if you win at a gane of chess because you have 5 days to plan a move and your opponent has a minute.
@@felixjohnson3874 read this 3 times over, and yeah you're right! what's even more interesting is that if you think about it, Mr. T is, kind of veteran hero/genius, or at least that's how he's come across to me. this movie was my introduction to him. the way he talks about it all and describes every problem with Superman's logic, says that he asked himself that question a long time ago. or at least came to that conclusion really quickly. superman is such an innocent character at times, it's easy to forget, come to think of it.
There's something lost by having it be a single game though. The way the comic does it adds two things. 1. Having Superman win the first game shows Flash's rapid progress in being able to overcome Superman at a game Superman initially had an advantage in. 2. Multiple games means Superman gets to start over from the beginning and try different approaches, so having Flash continue to beat him implies that no matter which alternative approach Superman takes, Flash will still win.
It's more so Flash is the most like Superman as both are the most "regular joe" people when not superheroes. Barry is urban middle class while Clark rural middle class and a big thing about that is how both cultures solve problems. Rural farmboys like Clark are taught to treat problems as "no one else is gonna fix it/can fix it. So I need to do it myself" City Boy Barry is taught that the community work to solve the problem as its naturally bound to affect more people. Both have their issues when put on a larger scale. Clark doesn't take the communitys emotions into enough consideration while Barry can ironically take too long to solve a complicated problem. Doesn't help the speed force allows users to think at super speed too so Barry cam quite literally outthink superman
"wise" using a slippery slope fallacy... the ridiculousness of what he said can be shown in opposite terms: "If you won't let people have nuclear bombs you're going to kill people who don't recycle too aren't you?!"
I'm convinced within seconds of the Flash receiving his power, he became so insane from the slowness of everything that he becomes this incorruptible person we see in the comics. Aint no way he hasnt had superspeed mental breakdowns before from how immensely fast and slow everything is to him.
It’s actually shown in the DCAU (albeit, with Wally instead of Barry) that his greatest fear, his greatest nightmare, and a fate that he almost suffered at one point in the series, is going so fast that time is at a standstill for him. Everyone else frozen in time from his perspective while he is invisible to them, a dead world where time does not move for the rest of his life.
It was established in the earliest Flash comics that Barry was perpetually, chronically, pathologically tardy. He gained superspeed and Barry is still late to everything. When he works he gets so caught up in what he is doing that he loses all track of time. Sure he can run around the world in under a second, that doesn't help when he was meant to meet Iris for dinner 20 minutes ago three blocks away. It is also often the case that his mind is only as fast as his body. Operating at normal speeds he has no better reaction times than the rest of us.
As someone who did LD for a couple years I love the structure of flash’s argument. Like if you look at the begging to the end it’s a slippery slope (the fallacy) and an obvious one at that. By building in decreasing severity from point a to b it is still a slippery slope, but not one that devalues his argument. It strengthens it by pointing out how fast Superman’s idea could turn into something far more general in scope without making a huge leap. I love it.
So here's the thing most people don't understand about the slippery slope fallacy it is only a fallacy when it can be assumed people will stop it at a reasonable point before it gets out of hand what Clark is purposing has no reasonable end point therefore to claim a slippery slope is not a fallacy
It is not a slippery slope. If your reason for getting rid of guns is it will save lives then it logically follows that you should be in favor of getting rid of things that cost lives. Slippery slope is for when the next step in the argument doesn’t logically follow, that’s why it is a logical fallacy. If you wanted to get rid of guns let’s say because people shouldnt be allowed to kill other from across a room(it’s a bad argument but let’s say that was the argument) then it would be a slippery slope to say you also wanted to get rid of car. It might not be a slippery slope to say you wanted to get rid of cigarettes though because of second hand smoke, unless your argument is it’s only bad when it’s instant or quick death.
Something that nobody every really tries to touch on is that people who move/think at these absolute insane speeds have (to them) a lot of time to think as the world around them slowly catches up to what they're doing. I like this interpretation of the two of them playing chess at high speeds, and having a conversation at the same speed, spending more time thinking in between each statement than what we can perceive because there's nothing else to do while they wait for the words to be said, not spoken.
I think the increasing frequency of the checkmates actually represents the Flash getting into Superman’s head, causing him to think less about chess and more about what Flash is saying
There's a few things to note here: 1. It isn't only that Barry can think (and move) faster than Kal-El, but he's also smarter. Clark is a farmboy where Allan is a distinguished scientist. Putting that into simpler terms for the game, Clark might think 100 moves ahead to keep up with his super speed, but Barry is playing all those 100 games simultaneously while thinking 100 moves ahead each. 2. Another interpretation of the checkmates would be to consider that Barry could have always won and never had to get better. Rather, if you comsider who wins and how fast it happens, you can see that Clark starts in control, but the crazier Barry's suggestions for future tasks, the quicker he wins... Almost as if Barry's words are there to convey how crazy their antics will become while hos wons are there to convey how they will lose focus and control of the situation faster and faster with every new ambition.
Clark is not a farmboy. He's an accomplished journalist who grew up in a farm and at the same time cultivated the extraterrestrial heritage left to him by one of the greatest scientists of his home planet.
@@suleymanbabak1973 I was talking about mindset. Even Loise Lane calls him "Smallville" because he has a simplistic view on the world (which is what makes him a great paragon) leading him to believe that if we take the complications out of the world, then people can live in peace. You see it here and in the Justice Lords. You can also see this in how he treats Darkseid, as so often this becomes the flaw to Superman's undoing. Meanwhile Barry is a scientist focused on quantum equations. Meaning he is predisposed to thinking about the complexity of what-ifs and alternate situations. Adding super speed thinking, he can do this rather quickly, but the edge in this battle of whits is how the mindset blinds Clark to how far he'll have to go where Barry realizes right out the gate that people are far more complex than a problem one man can solve.
@@Maninawig Well, Superman enslaves the world in Injustice with his thinking, reigning in criminality despite it being a dictatorship with a total surveillance and police state. It's probably not all bad for your average person as it seems like there isn't really any purpose other than to just exist since the JL controls everything and are effectively gods. Meanwhile, the Flash, while being this guy who's capable of seeing all of these outcomes, fucks up the entire universe by doing the one thing he shouldn't out of an entirely selfish desire despite warnings and knowing better. Clark isn't stupid. Lois calling him "Smallville" is based on his persona early on that she grew accustomed to and is nickname at first, then a reminder later on of his roots. Having high processing speed =/= intelligence. Flash has high intelligence and the fact that he can think fast just makes it easier for him to perform complex calculations quicker but it doesn't actually make him smarter. In terms of intellect, it goes Lex Luthor/Brianiac, Batman, Superman, Mr. Terrific, Barry Allen,
I believe that Flash's logic is flawed too, you can think of a lot of possibilities, but not ALL of them. People tend to be surprisingly predictable, but also unpredictable, you'll never know in theory what something will do to someone, unless you actually do it.
That's only half true. If you tell someone, "don't think of a pink elephant," You can accurately predict that either A. They will think of a pink elephant, B. They will resist thinking of a pink elephant, or C. They are incapable of thinking of a pink elephant. In case A, you affected their thoughts. In case B, you affected their thoughts. In case C, they have no thoughts. Combine this with repetition and now you understand Bernaysian Propaganda.
The point Flash is trying to make is that trying to be the benevolent "solution" to all of society's problems is a fool's errand. There is always another problem. Always another crisis. Always another issue. Meanwhile, the root causes for the problems remain unsolved. Why do people kill eachother in the first place? Why do people partake in well-documented poison? Why do people act carelessly? Simply removing the symptoms does not solve the problem, and society will be worse off for it.
The logic is flawed because its quite literally a logical fallacy. The ol slippery slope fallacy, can be shown stupid in opposite terms: "If you won't let people have nuclear bombs you're going to kill people who don't recycle too aren't you?!"
The Flash is just playing out Superman's slippery slope. Where infringements on people's rights get more and more extreme as the logic plays out. There's a reason the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. As Clark keeps seeking his Utopia with greater fervor, the atrocities grow, the fallout of said atrocities only strengthening Superman's resolve. We've seen this happen in Italy under Mussolini, Germany under Hitler, basically every tyrannical dictatorship ever. Heck, we see it happening to Canada and the USA too.
Writer: It took me decades to write all this books, for 32years have i been creating a immersive series with twists and plot, character all around i made 20 of... Barry: All done, Took me 10 seconds to read them all, Also there are some plot holes you need to fix Writer: * eye twitches * Kind of frightening that he is fast physically and mentally like that time superman studied a entire library for science and had to create something within a minute
same dude could build a whole ass library of alexandria and fill it with personally written books within at max a week and I say a week only because to fill a library like that would take more then 1,000,000+ books, which is to say that he could do something even worse to give that writer conniptions and mental breakdowns for a lifetime
one thing not mentioned on the "Checkmate checkmate checkmate" is that this can also be seen as the 3-space rule in chess - aka repeating the same move 3 times in a row without anyone being able to do anything else because one party is constandly put in check but not checkmate = a draw , Superman is not saying anything after the triple checkmate , but just stares back at barry , showing clearly that the words he is speaking have more meaning then his ego is willing to admit
I mean thats probably what it's meant to protray but logically its utterly unsound. A slippery slope fallacy flash committed, the ridiculousness of what flash said can be shown in opposite terms: "If you won't let people have nuclear bombs you're going to kill people who don't recycle too aren't you?!"
@@V01DIORE Flash was just using Superman’s reasoning and showing him that it’s flawed. Superman wants to eliminate everything that is dangerous or a risk to people but there are many things that the only risk they carry is because we choose to keep doing them(i.e. smoking) so eventually Superman would have to take away free will.
Superman's own logic will inevitably fall into the same logic trap that every artificial intelligence gone bad runs into. In order to eliminate all the dangers of lif you have to eliminate the most dangerous thing of all...life itself.@@Atom_of_pluto
@@Atom_of_pluto Yeah not at all the comic author putting in his political agenda on gun control with a slippery slope fallacy. I suppose he could literally write superman killing people for not recycling to try make the logic stand but eh.
@@V01DIORE The slippery slope is only a fallacy when improperly utilized; it's not inherently a fallacy. With that being said, Superman did become a dictator in the injustice universe, so flash was completely right in assuming his desire to help would end restricting peoples' rights.
I think another reason he got to checkmate Clark so many times is because Clark was thinking about what he was saying more and more and realising its true.
Poor writing but I don't expect comic writers to great at logic... flash has all the time in the world to look up what a slippery slope fallacy is but committed it nevertheless, the ridiculousness of what he said can be shown in opposite terms: "If you won't let people have nuclear bombs you're going to kill people who don't recycle too aren't you?!"
@@boberto930 If that's not a good example of his argument then why aside from nuclear bombs being replaced with guns is it literally his argument? I just changed it to a reverse slippery slope fallacy including nuclear bombs to show you how nonsensical it is logically. But nice of you to strawman my argument with an unexplained accusation of strawmaning itself in irony.
@@V01DIORE "why aside from nuclear bombs being replaced with guns is it literally his argument?" that isnt his argument tho. " But nice of you to strawman my argument with the accusation mine is the strawman" you dont even know what a strawman is
@@boberto930 Did you even watch the video? Flash went from saying about banning guns, alcohol and smoking to super man killing people for not recycling, literally a slippery slope fallacy, or are we commenting on different videos? Strawman: "an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument." Do you? By falsely asserting my argument is a strawman to more easily defeat it when it's not is literally strawmanning in of itself lmao.
Superman had the right idea but he missed the point, like Alcohol Prohibition people will still find ways to make guns, the better idea would be subconsciously influence people into having crippling fear of violence and war, get into their heads and they will stop using guns
@@cyberklashnikov3062 Thats not the point, superman doesn't care about the guns being turned on him, its turned on others thats the issue. Also still missing the grander point that eliminating the threat is not solving the issue.
Honestly, not the same thing. It's a lot easier to make shitty alcohol than to make any kind of gun, especially if these two also terminate all production of gunpowder and bullets / shells. And any black market operation would be quickly shut down by a dude who can lobotomize people from outer fkin space. This was probably the author's commentary on the real world issue of guns in the US or something, but it really doesn't work when applied to DC or Marvel.
@@wanderingmercurymarauder761 Was gonna make this point. Here in America there's a constant debate on gun laws and gun safety, but the fact is, no matter how hard it is to obtain a weapon, it's going to be aquired by those who wish to use it. Instead of gun laws and gun safety, we should be looking at what causes people to use said weapons instead. Like, bullying can lead to someone shooting up a school, so obviously bullying should be the priority not guns.
Another thing i find very cool about this scene is the way they represent the two sides of the argument through - specifically - an extremely fast game of chess. Superman and the flash, in this case, are physically making moves at around the same speed. The difference-maker, however, which allows Flash to win over and over again (once he has realized the way superman both plays chess and thinks about the world), is that flash is able to literally *think* faster, while superman just keeps up the appearance of moving at the same speed. He is arguing with flash, sure. But even efter doing literal seconds of research, Barry is just operating on a different level than him. Hopefully this rambling makes sense lol
I believe in animated version, Mr. Terrific asked the question instead m Because in the show Flash killed by Joker just as Metropolis was bombed Flash was a good choice in comics as he’s both the heart of the team, and is actually a smart person being a scientist enhanced by super speed While without Flash, in show Mr. Terrific being a genius, took an analytical approach explaining where Injustice Superman’s path would lead and won’t support it It’s a shame they killed off Flash, as he would have added a moral compass as the heart of the team, in this scent, although Mr. Terrific wasn’t a bad choice to take the role
I saw this thumbnail but didn’t click on it and scrolled twice and there was a short which was just the thumbnail animated except it was Superman and Mr Terrific
And they decided to kill Flash in the animated movie, that too in a ridiculous way. Good thing is the chess scene was still kept in the movie with Mr Terrific playing against Superman. Though Superman after losing, imprisons Mr T.
It’s wild that Mr.Terrific had the same exact conversation in the same exact way with Clark in the Animated justice league. I can’t remember if it was in Injustice, or a movie. I remember this playing out between them 2 though
Haven't read the comics, but I almost think that the checkmates aren't Flash showing an ability but Superman losing focus. I think that Flash's comments are starting to reach Superman, the real Superman, and he's pondering the ethics. Thinking about the course of thought because it makes sense, and thus no longer thinking ahead about which pawn to move 10 seconds from 0.1 seconds from now. Honestly, it seems like it starts with Superman flexing that his ability is superior to Flash and he shouldn't question. But it transitions. Flash seems to agree with Superman but starts to point out the flaws, slowly. Starting on very common ground and then working to what we mortals would view as an absurd take to an argument or debate (what about peoples dogs, though its a creature of its own free will). But everything honestly goes that deep and far, as long as we're willing to see it for what it is.
The animated film version of the scene had Superman play chess with Mr. Terrific instead of Flash, at a normal pace. Though Mr. Terrific had the same speech as Flash, yet it still fits perfectly since he's one of the smartest heroes around.
Barry really should've been on team Batman since the beginning. I know he and Clark are pals, but at the most they're racing buddies. Barry and Bruce understand each other on a level that most others can't. And personally, if Bruce didn't have Clark, I believe Barry would be his best friend.
I think it does make sense Barry being team superman in the beginning Could you imagine the flash turning on superman as one of his villiains mirror master is threatening what little family superman has left? Plus after that it kinda cements that the justice league will not respect governments as those governments will threaten innocents to protect their power But later on??? It's weird one where flash's morality would have him leave but his loyalty to his friends would have him stay
i appreciate your ability to deduce so much about the characters and the world without having to divulge into the entirety of the story. It's very impressive that you can gather so much information from just a single interaction.
Plus the live action version of flash is a HUGE se x offe nder. So you know... no vetting rid of him any time soon. Y ou know how hollywood protecte their own.
Which of these scenes came first: the injustice comic with flash or the Justice League scene with Mr. Terrific? They are practically the same scene but I never see anyone discuss which led to the other.
Great scene! They played this scene out in the DC Injustice animated movie but it was Mr. Terrific in the chess game, instead of Flash and only one game was played.
in the animation version, they made mr.terrific do this scene instead, which is a bit upsetting but since flash had died i’m not too mad. I’m just glad it was kept at all.
Wait… what?! When did this comic come out?! I recall this same conversation between Superman and Mr. Terrific in the Justice League Unlimited TV show from the early 2000’s.
Its interesting how they replaced the Flash with Mr Terrific in the Injustice Animated movie, giving the same points as Flash did due to Mr Terrific being insanely smart.
Perhaps but the ridiculousness of what was said can be shown in opposite terms: "If you won't let people have nuclear bombs you're going to kill people who don't recycle too aren't you?!"
@@V01DIOREwhy does everyone in this comment section cling to nuclear bombs thing. Cool man, you can exaggerate, we get it. Its a debate around the cost that comes with achieving ones goals, and whether it's acceptable or even worth it. Why strawman a hypothetical of a hypothetical.
@@Touriquette The exaggeration was meant to be a mirror to show you how stupid flash argument was but you are attacking the mirror lol. He went from why won’t you let people have guns to you’re going to kill people who don’t recycle aren’t you?! Slippery slope fallacy. The nuclear bombs are to make it obvious how nonsensical the logic is but it flew over your head… maybe you will get it now but I don’t have high hopes for your comprehension. Also to suggest a strawman falsely is in itself a strawman argument ironically.
@@V01DIORE You don't need to exaggerate to show an arguement is flawed. Flashes arguement is flawed, I just believe he makes it for a different reason. (Emotional instead of the logic that debate demands) An argument geared towards Superman specifically, not towards the idea of disarmament necessarily. These are characters in a comic book after all. While I meantioned it being a strawman because they're discussion is already on the level of philosophy more so than reality. (Hence, why I mention the strawmanning of a hypothetical) There is no official way to interpret it so any interpretation of the conversation is by nature a strawman. Though I never argued it, since there is nothing to suggest Superman still has restraint at this point the Slippery slope fallacy doesn't apply. In real life sure, but you have to make that distinction. (The slippery slope fallacy partially refers to inevitability, contrast this with Superman who we know will actively persue this. Disrupting the process that justifies a Slippery Slope) Caveats, and conditions still apply, even to fallacies. The fact that you ignored the entire sentence that came before the strawman one proves your lack of comprehension. I thought you'd be more competent and thorough. Your correct, but by being such a pretentious ass you miss the point regardless. Its a hollow victory.
I love how you can watch Flash change his tactic. He starts off trying to appeal to reputation, Superman has been showed in many iterations to genuinely care what the public thinks of him. But this Superman has moved past that, he’s willing to accept being hated if it means doing what he believes is right. So Flash changes course, pointing out the hypocrisy at the core of this Superman’s argument, that even though his goal could be justified, Superman’s changed so much that it will not stop there
I feel like Flash is making a lot of assumptions that a Superman that is more proactive about catching bad guys is destined to turn evil. While the definition "bad guys" might be dubious as long as Superman isn't violating any major red lines such as killing people at will, overthrowing world leaders, private prisons, and etc I don't think supporting Lord Superman is a bad thing when he's clearly trying to work through his negative feelings in a seemingly positive manner.
The fact that the writers treat this fallacy as some big gotcha moment for the Flash is a perfect representation of the quality of writing in this story.
Love the general premise of the scene but as someone who doesn't live in the USA the clear pro-gun propoganda is super jarring lol. When every other country on the planet has figured out how to curb gun violence its hard to see Supes as in the wrong here
The arguments flash make are actually bad though. -Cigarettes are not bad because of tobacco, sure the human body isn't supposed to smoke anything, its the "additives" in cigarettes that kill you faster than just tobacco smoke will. -Cars and guns should not be compared how the flash compares them, cars are progressively designed to be safer not just for the occupant, but the people outside of the vehicles as well. And we DO have laws and regulations for that as well as the behaviors and use of motor vehicles, such as air bags, seatbelts, no drinking and driving, or otherwise being under the influence or distracted, etc... Sure there will always be people who disregard such things, but that's when they are supposed to face the consequences for doing so, right? Don't get me wrong, I like the comic run(s) of injustice, but there are some blatant plot holes, including but not limited to this scene. As with the amount of different technologies most of these "problems" the Flash and Superman point out could be solved pretty quickly, but that wouldn't have been good for the plot.
Tobaccos, the plants, by themselves still contain high amounts of nicotine which is well documented to cause both addiction and cancer. The idea that cigarettes are bad because they're "artificial" and the tobacco leaves are healthier because they're "natural" will still send you to an early grave.
@@ardenorcrush649 Like I said, the human body isn't supposed to smoke anything. But your wrong if you think that regular tobacco is as bad for you as even just ONE of the "additives" corporation put into cigarettes.
The argument he makes is pretty simple. If your reason for getting rid of guns is it will save lives then it logically follows that you should be in favor of getting rid of things that cost lives or at least more lives. If you wanted to get rid of guns let’s say because people shouldn’t be allowed to kill other from across a room(it’s a bad argument but let’s say that was the argument) the it wouldn’t logically follows to get rid of cars. It might still logically follow to say you wanted to get rid of cigarettes though because of second hand smoke, unless your argument is it’s only bad when it’s instant or quick death or when it is purposefully done. You have you have a reason that only gets rid of guns and not other bad things if that is all you want to get rid of. It has to be a pretty organic reason too, if you just say you want to get rid of things that are made to kill then the question would be why is something that was make for killing bad? Is it because killing is bad? Well then we are just back at anything that people kill others with more than guns should be banned.
Smoking kills more than guns. Car accidents kill more than guns. Thousands of lives are saved every year thanks to guns. Pretty weird that instead of tackling bigger problems, you go against the one thing that ensures the government doesn't turn tyrannical.
1:17 “Just because you can do something, doesn’t mean you should…” starting to sound familiar. I wonder if Flash is the Peter Parker in the DC Universe…
He basically is. Good natured, sees the good in people, always has a lighthearted quip, always holds back, very smart, doesn't want to hurt anyone, willing to stand alone in the name of good, and always trying to help people, even if they don't deserve it. They're still different characters, but they're very similar in a lot of ways, although I'd say Peter is the Flash of marvel because DC came first.
People are missing the point of the cigarettes vs guns thing. They are different, but cigarettes (smoking) claim more lives. Thats what the point of the comparison was. Guns don’t kill as many people.
Thats not the point. Flash is essentially saying that if they use their powers to enforce the removal of a dangerous substance under the pretense of “protection” then where would they draw the line. Theoretically, they are powerful enough to stop all of these things, but hes asking about the morality of removing anything just objectively considered” dangerous”
@@nsikanndoh7680 Then so is the opposite true, legalise nuclear bombs. If we cant be allowed to have nuclear bombs then wont you kill people who don't recycle? It's a slippery slope fallacy.
not to mention, the overwhelming majority of gun deaths are s*ici*de. Cigarettes are just a slower version, but still kill more people. Superman's morals and reasoning are only halfbaked.
Flash isn’t goofy or dumb. He’s just a guy trying to make the most out of life. And he hates seeing everyone fall apart around him. Quite literally holding the fabrics of the universe together at times lol
I once played in a tabletop superhero game setting called Mutants and Masterminds. My character was a hyper-intellect techie, and basically took the downtime between sessions to run "projections and predictions". Much like the Flash here, he could read the potential outcome; but where he's boiling an argument down, my character saw something like Superman (but actually a villain) and the MYRIAD of ways his power and corruption could go. It was fun, but VERY stressful playing session to session knowing I was the only human who had a very thin line of defense. I was a better Batman, but that didn't matter much.
Anyone who's had a basic critical thinking class in college can see that Flash's arguments don't quite hold water. His arguments rely on the 'slippery slope' fallacy, which doesn't exactly scream smart thinking.
I wish flash would have pointed out that more people use guns per year to defend themselves, than the number of people who are murdered with the use of guns.
Haha gun control bad amirite XD. As much as I agree with the general message of the comic, using this as a justification against gun control is the most braindead thing ever.
When I was extremely young I was pissed whenever I saw youtube videos comparing Flash and Superman for speed when Flash's whole power is speed, and he's my favourite character
It's interesting that when Injustice starts off, the Joker is just doing his Jolly Japes bit with a nuke, with no idea what he's about to prove. He's not actively trying the same crap with Clark that he tried with Jim Gordon in The Killing Joke. But that's what he ends up doing, accidentally - giving Clark that One Bad Day. And unlike Jim Gordon, Clark Kent responds exactly as the Joker said anyone would, and snaps. Given what we know about Superman's ironclad morals, it really puts Jim Gordon into Sam Vimes territory for the whole 'the legendary (and fictional) Good Cop' thing.
Yes and no. The problem is the individual, which makes up both groups. But If you have a rationale that punishes the individual though, then it punishes ‘anybody’ because individuals make up that group. Which means you need to punish yourself when you step out of line, and punishing/hurting ‘anybody’ is the rationale of the villain they fight against.
More accurately it's the underlying feasibility of life which has such probabilistically manifest for the same reason flames burn. So long as the immune system of governance does not make malignancy infeasible such will fester benefiting itself burning.
To be fair, I think removing guns is not a bad idea, and that the Flash gave very weird and extreme examples. Guns are specifically made for violence even in the act of self-defence you are still threatening someone's life. I live in Indonesia which has the lowest gun ownership rates, and it feels good knowing a classmate of mine won't start shooting my face off.
Yeah, but the point is the people have to willingly give them up. Like getting rid of smoking world-wide is a good idea and drinking since it's really only a negative thing at the end of the day. However the people who do it have to be willingly to give it up and they won't.
Guns are an equalizer for a reason. When you remove someone's ability to defend themselves by any means necessary, you handicap them and give the advantage to the criminal/government/etc., and that's why a lot of US citizens simply won't support giving up their firearms.
you can remove guns but you can't remove the humans who want to kill eachother. humans have been efficently murdering eachother since the dawn of time. removing guns does not remove war.
It's not about Flash getting better (and thinking faster) it's about Sups getting distracted by ugly truth of what he started while Sups still got good intentions.
As someone who plays chess I hate the fact they kept saying check mate, check mate is when the game is actually over, check is when the king is threatens and the next move has to be to save the king, unless they played like 20 games here then it was wrong.
They played several games, yes. They didn't show the board being reset because that would take more panels than needed to convey the points being made, but remember that they can play at super speed. They can also reset the board at super speed.
“The road to Hell paved with good intention” While Superman have good intention against gun issues, not all people who own guns are considered criminals. And that leads to many other issues within society, even down to the most simple problem, like littering. Total conversion takes time, and even more on proper education. Barry was right on that point. One thing came to another, because Clark forgot one simple thing: Inconsistency is also human’s trait
