The Ford Lightning's Serviceable Battery Pack Modules 

💯

Thanks for watching!

Question for you if you live in a colder climate; how does your truck pre-heat the battery after it's been sitting overnight in the freezing cold? Some guy made a comment that his neighbor's Lightning turned into a brick in the freeze we just had.

@@FelixTheCat69 You keep it plugged into the charger and the battery heaters heat up the battery when you precondition prior to scheduled departure or when you remote start, just have to give it time to warm up before hammering it. Can’t speak for what the other person’s neighbor did.

@@FelixTheCat69 To expand on what Sean said, a small emersion heater, not unlike one in your electric water heater at home, heats coolant that is circulated through the coolant plates under the cells. Electric coolant pumps circulate the coolant. Keeping it plugged in should work, especially with preheating.

Thanks

That is awesome!

Wow you were actually able to get a pro model. Who’s you have to do a “favor” for?

@@jm100368 nobody but I have bought a lot of trucks over time

Yea there is a list with priority for fleet,dealers etc then street people. The dealers will not tell you that

Ten? So you dropped near a million dollars? That's insane (one of these trucks costs around 100k where I live).

What application are they being used for?

Great comment! 👏👏

19:45 - what are the electrical plug for the connectors on the cast aluminum ends of the LG MachE modules, so I can buy a pigtail and connect a module to a balancer???

@@DavidHalko Don't know. If you have a careful look at the connector you should be able to read the connector manufacturer's name and then continue your search from there. Also many connectors have a typical pin distance of pins, i.e. the uniform distance between pins measured from center to center. Some common header pitches are: 5.08 mm (0.200 in) 3.96 mm (0.156 in) 2.54 mm (0.100 in) with 0.64 mm (0.025 in) square pins or precision machined 0.50 mm (0.020 in) round pins 2.00 mm (0.079 in) with 0.50 mm (0.020 in) square pins 1.27 mm (0.050 in) 1.00 mm (0.0394 in) This pitch together with the layout of the pins (row count and column count) gives a good idea, what to search for. From there you can then get universal connector pigtails to interface with the connector. For stationary indoor use this will suffice. Once you need all the automotive characteristics like protection against dust, moisture, vibration and so on, you will need a proper locking connector with proper sealing however.

Hi@@koeniglicher - I own 4 of the 8s4p batteries, from a MachE, I started backward engineering the pin outs, I now know enough pins to make it useful, but not enough to figure out what the manufacturer of the connector is. I tried to go to ford, to buy some cabling, but they wanted a VIN, which I do not have. I just need a stationary application. I used breadboard to header pin wire extenders to connect to the 2x sockets on each battery, but those wires are very thin. I may be stuck with them. 👎 Maybe I can take some more photos, zoom in more, and take your suggestion…

@@DavidHalko Google and some of the other major search companies offer a search function that can identify what is in the camera view, or possibly what is in a picture. I haven't really used this feature myself, so I can't speak to how good it is, especially with a more esoteric part, but I know this search capability exists. If you're still having a hard time figuring it out, you could always use a micrometer or caliper to try and capture both the size of the pin, and also the pin spacing. If you do decide to try this, be very careful to not accidentally short two live conductors. If they're shorted you could possibly kill the caliper, any circuitry inside the cell/pack, or anything else that might become energized by the voltage, up to and including you. One other thing to keep in mind, is that how you use the Calipers and/or micrometer will absolutely influence the readings you get. Trying to measure the exact dimensions of the pins themselves, along with the pitch of the conductors in the receptacle is something that would need to be performed very carefully, and likely repeated more than a couple times so that you can be as sure as possible what the exact dimensions are for your new plug.

Heat "rises" in air, not in fixed structures, like a sealed battery pack. The cells themselves have a semi-liquid electrolyte dispersed withing the plates, but it would an extremely minimal ability to convect.

Conduction doesn't care about up or down. You're thinking convection.

@@wizzyno1566 " ...heat rises to the top of the pack" What is that supposed to mean? Heat does not "conduct" up. Absolutely, having the cooling plate at the bottom of the pack limits its overall effectiveness, but with modern cells, the IR is so low and the C-rate so low during driving, heat is hardly an issue any more. The pack needing to be _heated_ in colder climates is really the issue.

Yet you were consulting engineer! There is huge amount of science & practice behind battery cooling. Solutions often not what pub crowd expected. Even Sandy got this wrong one time.

Please turn in your engineering credentials if you think that conduction is dependent on gravity.

Thanks Fred

Thanks a ton!

Thanks for watching!

Our pleasure!

Glad you liked it!

Wish you much success in the next step of your career!👍😊

This design is no more or less serviceable than nearly every other current EV battery design, other than Tesla's unfixable stuff.

I would guess serviceability is less about future upgrades; this is most certainly about large corporations managing their risk as they enter new technology spaces.

Same. Wondering if Ford will reuse modules in a home power wall type product?

So the standard range pack still has nine modules in two layers? That may be, but it would be an unnecessarily expensive way to build it. A more rational design would have the minimum number of modules possible, to reduce both structure and cooling complexity. The Mach E has fewer modules in the standard version than the extended version, with only one layer in the standard version.

@@brianb-p6586 I don't know for sure. This is just my best guess. We will know it, once anyone has disassembled a standard range battery pack of an F-150 Lightning and shared his findings. Or you can make a best guess yourself and reply how they fit e.g. 364 cells (91s4p) into 7 modules (about 52 cells each). Then they would make 7s modules a 13s4p. Still, it looks like you cannot get 7 modules into one layer of this pack. So some of the modules will need to be stacked on top anyways.

@@koeniglicher Yes, it does look like a second layer is necessary, but it could be shorter and simpler.

Thanks E

Tesla's approach has a lot of advantages. Mainly the pack can be structural, which saves tons of cost and weight. And new Tesla batteries are so reliable and long lasting that they are very unlikely to need service. I think Tesla should include battery replacement in it's insurance product, maybe even without any added cost. With such rare replacement the cost would be negligible, but it would reassure customers.

@@andrasbiro3007 The advantages are all for the manufacturer not the end user. Even minor damage to a Tesla battery pack from debris on a highway striking the pack become a $24,000 repair bill since the pack is not repairable.

@@andrasbiro3007 -- When you claim a battery pack is "structural," you are also saying the the pack will be twisted about as you drive. Can you say, "Accident Waiting to Happen?" Seriously, I suspect that FMC is going to settle on the hybrid model for its EVs. The battery pack will be smaller and wouldn't be expected to be a part of the frame. Making it "repairable" is nice and, I suspect this will become the new standard. I would say it's even money whether Elon has some folks working on "repairable" packs.

@@heathwirt8919 It does matter for the end user, what you're going to get is a heavier truck, less efficient and higher cost.

@@heathwirt8919 You keep ignoring the value of the failed battery with that bogus $24k figure. Ever hear of a "core credit"? even a cheap water pump has a core value which reduces the purchase cost. The "core credit" for a giant expensive battery would likely be > 2/3 of the cost of a new one.

Great observation! 👏👏

Tongue tripping to avoid saying " Explode" 😂

Munroes pension is with Ford….😂

@@shazam6274 Always liked the term "non-passive failure".

@@patrickkenny2077 Physical release of chemical energy??

11:10 In Germany we call this "Wortakrobatik" literally translates to "word acrobatics". Future terrorists will tell the police, that they placed a "compressed element getting expanded from within" - not a "bomb" after the "blow off event" or "thermal event" or "outgasing event". SCNR. 😉

Photos or it didnt happen! (kidding.....)

@@wilber8260 We didn't have digital cameras back then...

@@brianb-p6586 Yeah, you took your roll of camera film to the drug store and got your pictures on paper back three days later. Back then a cordless phone was one that was disconnected and not working.

@@brianb-p6586 better. polaroid

Welcome

Thank God that Ford chose to make their battery packs serviceable. Unlike the unrepairable Tesla 4680 piece of crap!

This is a common misconception. The 4680 is designed to be recycled. The whole pack, foam and all, will get turned into a slurry and its components separated out into raw materials. Check out Redwood materials, they just got a $2B loan from the US govt to expand their planned battery materials campus in Nevada. Facilities and ones like it will be instrumental to the battery supply chain in the future.

@@aybase Recycling does little good for the vehicle owner stuck with a $20,000 battery replacement bill! It also doesn't allow for reuse of the batteries. This is pure greed to get more money out of customers!

​@@DavidJohnson-tv2nn Nope. It tells me Tesla has confidence in its product and that it will not need replacement. Having modular design like this tells me that they know the battery tech will fail and are anticipating making many replacements. Also, the Tesla structural battery solution increases efficiency for both manufacturing and performance.

@@themonsterunderyourbed9408 And I'm sure you know better. There isn't a product ever designed that doesn't need repairs. You make a bold claim with no evidence to support it. The GM design recognizes reality and makes it easier for the customer. The Tesla design screams "F" the customer! Let them buy a new car from us! Just like the evil Apple corporation and their anti-consumer attitude.

Good observation, I was thinking the same thing.

The battery management system covers such problems. On the whole, it's generally necessary to cool the entire battery. The foam just keeps things in place.

Very light weight. It is used for vibration management and fixing the cell into place.

I highly doubt they will want anyone monkeying with these battery packs for liability reasons

The LG modules have the foam layers every second cell interface, too; they are not for heat transfer in either the LG design or the SKI design. In the LG stack, foam sheets and aluminum heat transfer plates alternate. Where the LG stack has the aluminum plates the SKI stack doesn't have anything - the cells are in direct contact.

Yes but your comparing an old prius battery that cost 20k for 8kwh pack today you can get 80kwh pack for 10k-15k prices are coming down 10 more years I bet there be in the 5000 range

@@lesstevens2370 Sorry for late reply. I would encourage you to check Tesla prices for out of warranty 2012 replacement batteries. It's near twice what you say. Tesla will brick or restrict your car if they find that you have repaired or replaced the battery yourself. Meanwhile private companies are popping up that can service batteries. Weber University trains and ASE certifies mechanics to service EVs and their batteries.

@Miata822 well yeah 11 year old 18650 battery tech which are being discontinued and replaced with either the 2780 or the 4680 versions that's why it cost more and the 4680 is the cheapest option for batteries since you don't need thousands of them anymore unlike those old 18650 batteries

@@lesstevens2370 Not getting drawn into a debate. You don't seem familiar with the subject.

Being that one is made in Mexico and the other in Michigan the different designs probably affect production ver little if at all.

Those modules are designed and made by two different companies 🤦‍♂️

I expect every EV maker will continue evolving/improving battery pack designs with each new generation of vehicles. Tesla has and does build multiple different kinds of battery packs with different base cell sizes and different chemistries (Tesla China is reported making many LiPO based vehicles). The materials and industry are not mature enough for there to be a permanent "right way" declared yet.

Am bear, not Antonio.

Dang, my Appalachian accent showin through.

Thank you!

The foam is the normal solution - pouch cell stacks always have foam separators in them.

Yes, just like almost every other pouch cell module, but particularly easy because the BMS is external to the module so an alternate BMS could be used instead of trying to talk to proprietary Ford systems. Unfortunately the capacity is so high that they won't be useful unless the conversion needs either low voltage or high total pack capacity.

Or using the modules for energy storage at home or a shed….

Ahhh...the argument that one should believe one is perfect when evidence suggests that is impossible.

Well, that may not entirely be driven by costs. When demand exceeds supply, a seller is leaving money on that when he distributes his product by "allocation" rather than highest bidder.

I think they are also preparing for the LFP F-150. Which opens the question can Ford deliver a sub $40k full size work truck?

Where hopes and wishes smack directly into reality. BEV's aren't easy.

Well, Tesla changed prices that many times just last month.

Bidens inflationary programs are taxi ng corporations more that is were price increases are coming from

It’s full of air, can be compressed to "nothing", so I’d assume not a good thermal conductor.

It is not very thermally conductive, and does not need to be. Heat flow is vertically between the cell and the thermal management plate.

I think they take applications/ enquiries on the website?

My thoughts exactly. It's a "we must be out before the CT" Design (the whole truck) Combined with "use the parts bin". (Incoming!!!!!)

Yeah you know better than ford. Lol

Ultium is a joke vaporware. It's just more stalling by legacy automakers to try and keep customers away from Tesla. Another version of "We'll have 43 different electric models by 2022" yet they still only offer one, maybe. GM(nor any other legacy OEM) has no plans or supply for volume production. They're just waiting for Tesla to go bankrupt so they can say "Look! We told you electric cars wouldn't work!" Except Tesla will absolutely not fail and will continue to take over the market.

Different manufacturers sk innovation vs LG

The commonality prevents the ID Buzz to get as big a battery as it really needs.

@@koreysutter6461 The battery manufacturer doesnt lead the design, the OEM does. You can have a dozen different battery manufacturers and still have commonality between the housings and motors etc.

Ford is only offering the Mach E GT front drive unit as a "crate motor" under the "Eluminator" name to get good publicity - they clearly have no interest in selling and supporting it. They certainly wouldn't have any interest in designing and building new EV components just for the aftermarket... especially since they buy the modules from outside suppliers.

No. The extended range battery does not just have more of the same modules - it has different modules.

Tesla has also designed the pack for high reliability. When Ford has so many fittings, connections, and fasteners, you decrease reliability. The one problem that Tesla discovered early on is modules can't be swapped out. The pack must have matched modules - ones that age together. When you swap out a module with a new one (other than in production), the pack will have a very shortened life as the modules will no longer charge and discharge evenly (which is very critical). Even on old Teslas with modules, Tesla replaces the entire pack if a module fails. I think Ford, GM and others have yet to discover this problem as it only shows up in packs that have aged a bit. Sadly, all that design for "repairability" is a total waste of engineering, cost, and hurts reliability.

Tesla designed the 4680 pack for *vehicle* efficiency. Many of the main points of failure (electronics) are in the "penthouse", separate from the "structural" element and can be repaired. The cells (Subject to confirmation by Munro,) seem to be "fused" to remove a faulty individual from the circuit. As someone mentioned elsewhere, you have to gauge the cost of pack replacement against the time of removal, strip down, diagnosis and repair. From the recent report (Morgan Stanley?) There's a path for the 4680 pack to reduce from $10-12k down to $5-6k by the time warranties expire. A 2 hour(?) Swap will be more cost-effective to the customer than the strip/ diagnose/ repair/ reassemble route (which would probably involve module replacement anyway?)

@@tesla_tap exact, matching perfectly involve precise algorithm to match Internal resistance and capacity model as well as perfect matching over the aging. I've been repairing, investigating and designing lithium battery for years and matching and make sure the BTM is also working perfect to make all cells to age equally is very difficult. Even on my Volt after 8 years i can see cells internal resistance that are higher that depend the location where they are in the battery. I very like the Tesla approach. Like you said having modules replaced on a battery involve having the same battery SOH, not only soc and capacity and i think not all garage are capable storing enough and even finding modules that have these same caracteristics..

@@tesla_tap untrue. If you have a faulty module, all you need to do is relace it with a module with equvalent or slightly higher capacity to maintain the overall battery pack's capacity. You could even waste money on a brand new module, but that would be of no benefit. The BMS (battery management system - all evs have one) will ensure that no module is overcharged. On discharge, the bms will stop the car when the weakest module reaches its minimum voltage. Older vehicles can have weak modules replaced with a module of similar capacity to the remaining modules. Ev conversion shops are matching used modules as part of their conversion process.

@@nordic5490 Sorry, I disagree. The BMS has no way to deal with mismatched modules, new or old. When mismatched, some modules will charge and discharge at a different rate, causing modules to die an early death. The BMS may detect the issue, but it can't fix it.

That just means these cells are super delicate and the design has no cooling on the wide surface area, the cooling is forced only to the bottom of each cell. It is the overall pack frame that protects the cells, it is rigid so it won't flex. I would bet the piece of rubber is either an insulator or to improve heat transfer between cells. Their cooling strategy does not look that good. Other packs with similar pouch cells use thin cooling pads as dividers between the cells that let fluid flow through them. Such as the ones lg chem made for the chevy volt and bolt. The offroad aspect has nothing to do with the internals of the pack. The only pack for any vehicle that is designed to transfer physical load to the battery cells is tesla's structural pack which uses cylindrical cells.

@@_PatrickO Slow charging Bolt might not be such a great example. What is E-GMP (Genesis/Kia/Hyundai) doing to get such high speeds?

@@_PatrickO It sounds like you've never held a lithium-ion pouch cell in your hand. The cooling solution is sub-optimal, but the entire pouch is metallic and will transfer heat to/away from the rest of the pack. They are not, however, rigid - which is why we call them a pouch instead of a box or something else. As such, sandwiching them tightly will minimize movement, but not totally restrict abrasion of the foil layer of the pouch when pressed against a neighboring pouch - which would lead to leakage, shorting, and pack failure. We're talking about high-frequency oscillation surface-to-surface friction, not bouncing around within the case.

@@rebturtle the rubber is likely there for expansion and contraction. It may conduct heat or it may be an insulator, cannot tell.

What about the rather bad thermal management of the cells in this pack? The 4680 pack is much better in that regard.

@@w0ttheh3ll serviceable packs can also have good thermal management.

Agreed! Many a 20+ year old F150 is still on the road every day. A ten year old EV with a dead monolithic battery pack is mostly likely going to end up being scrapped out as uneconomical to repair.

@John Horner so you don't think with all these battery manufacturers making millions of batteries aren't going to bring the price down for packs, so say you bought a f150 3.5 just finished paying for it and the engine went you will just scrap it and buy a new one??

​@@johnhorner5711 Tesla battery packs will last longer than 10 years. They'll probably outlast the body of the car.