because let's be real here Camille is a good blend between skill expression and the champion not carrying the player. she also has CLEAR bad matchups, compared to others where matchups stop mattering "if you're good enough with the champion"
i just started playing the game so im seriously asking, what is wrong with camille (or any of them, but i'm a camille player). she has terrible wave clear and will be slow to get sunderer which leaves good time to get a lead against her, and then she can quickly become super ass when behind. Or am i just bad. let me know lolz
@@bobbob-iv4wethe true damage and the screen length dash are the biggest offenders. I played her too and I don't think she's that bad, but that's not the consensus apparently.
Kinda weird to me how 1k true damage every 2 seconds in late game is dumb but it's fine when late game adc does 1200 dmg every aa or a mage dealing 5k magic damage in one rotation.@@mistared4021
gwen is kept from being on the same level as the other four due to her reliance on late game scaling, since you're not guaranteed even getting to the late game. whereas she has to work towards being able to 1v1 others by building at least two full items given how low her ap scaling starts, the other four only need 1-2 components of a full item to win duels consistently. not saying she's weak by any means of course, but riven, fiora, irelia, and camille can all do "gwen stuff" far earlier in the game.
I feel like fiora also needs a good bit of scaling tho too right? Her vitals dont do much damage until she at least has an item, more like an item and a half
Can you shut up Gwen literally has aoe,true damage that also heals her and scales off her building ap and that’s just on 1 ability. She’s strong early your probably a low elo shitter that doesn’t understand the game
The thing with Gwen is I feel like she only feels like a Horsewoman if she lanes against a tank, or once she hits late game. Playing Gwen against most things in lane is such a humbling experience Lol
Hell even against a tank you can get bodied if you play confidently early. Tahm in particular can trash her early levels to the point where scaling doesn't even matter
One thing i think that also contributes to having ONE of the horsewomen viable at any given time is how different each one plays to one another, hence odds are the meta will support ONE of their playstyles. Lethality and flat AD strong? Riven can make use of that hard thanks to her raw AD ratios on abilities. Attackspeed and on hit strong? Irelia can abuse it with her Q and passive. Oneshot dive meta? Camille is the definetion of nuked from the other side of your screen. Splitpushing bruisers are busted? Fiora smashes most champs in a 1 v 1 and abuses those items really well like hullbreaker or goredrinker. Unless we end up in a meta thats EXCLUSIVELY mages and enchanters i can't think of any AD/tank meta that one of them can't abuse with their collective kits. (Maybe crit items? But fiora abused essence reaver and I.E and i could see irelia with Navori Shieldbow.)
On the subject of the navori irelia, I think you would only want her q on the level as fiora q but that will never happen. As fiora q is just too short of a cooldown in comparison. Maybe her e you would want to cast it twice in a fight. By the time you cast your 2nd e, you would either be dead or you killed your opponent just by the nature(dmg) of the build. I think navori would only work if you are against tanks(with bork) or maybe squishy[cuz of crit(?)] But you can still go her regular build and accomplish the thing you want from her
funnily enough, those 4 are countered by olaf which possess a good matchup in all 4 of them, as well as malphite who can outlane them and "solo" teamfights with proper engage and pealing (but it does require one fed member in your team so not absolutely solo)
What I also noticed is that, aside from Riven, all of them have an arena-esque ability on their ult where they have total control of the area and have a significant buff when in it. Camille with her ult which is the forces the enemy in a single area and she also has % current hp magic damage per auto. Fiora with her ult where she gets extra movement speed when in it and gets immense amount of healing in an area for her and her allies when she procs all of the vitals. Then Irelia's ult makes it so that if they pass through the walls, they'll get damaged and she can get extra procs for her Q.
Vars, you make great league analysis and observation videos that I look forward to watching everyday while I eat my breakfast. I always walk away from your videos nodding my head and going “hm yeah that’s a good point” or “ooh I hadn’t thought of or realized that!”. Just wanted to show my support
HOT TAKE as someone who plays Wukong top a lot. I get super excited when I lane against a irelia riven camille and fiora (well except grasp fiora), and it's mostly because of how fun it is. You see, in the top lane, there are a lot of matches that feel too oneside with champs that have ver simple kits that can lead to boring gameplay. Like when I lane against a Garen or illaoi that are overtly aggressive with their damage, tankiness, healing, and resistances meaning a lot of time, I have to play passive and pray for some jg ganks. When it's champs like kayle and nasus that are very weak in the early game but since they know this, they play EXTREMELY passive using their abilities like nasus and kalye's w and prevent any engagement until late game, where they become units of destruction. Or just tanks like malphite and sion where they really don't care if they die in the early game they can just keep pushing and scale with their tank items becoming unkillable in team fights. They're very boring and unfun to play against. But with champs like irelia, riven camille, and fiora, when I play wukong against them its soo fun because I know I can kill them but they also know they can kill me so it's not like it's one-sided but rather unpredictable on who can outplay who given how skill express these champs are compare to wukong passive and abilities. Even when i die, I don't go oh "oh no I died this sucks" I go "damn that was soo close but this time I'll kill them for sure" and it's just soo fun. There's something so fun where you're in a match and you both know you can kill each other and just brawl out till one is fed.
I swear every time I play I always go "Ah shit, * insert champion * again, why does everyone even play this shit, how can they find this fun" unless it's fiora irelia camille yone (jax used to be between these, before the rework that made him busted), heck even if they steal my riven I'm happy I get to play the fiora riven matchup, just from the fiora side
@@_VinSi you think jax's REWORK made him busted?? do you know the old jax !?! he could stand in the FOUNTAIN and DODGE the laser. not tank it, DODGE IT.
Irelia is only stronger if you allow her to stack passive which 90% of the roster can force her off wave on lvl1, ofc you have to know you are stronger lvl1@@no7k7k
@@no7k7k It just depends on what you play, If you play ranged (gay) you hate irelia which is also unironic since she is probably the straightest looking girl of the 4. If you play tank (geek) you probably hate fiora cause she shits on tanks. If you play Fighter (chad) you probably only struggle with riven but thats only ofc if shes good. I dont think camille excells over any of them at what they do best, but she has a bit of all 3, she has mobility/range (irelia), true damage (fiora) and a bunch of cc (riven) plus shes much better at teamfights. Its also why camille is oftenly picked at pro play (even tho its usually jungle), you will never see a fiora/irelia/riven at worlds and if you do they lose their games 3/3 times
I'd say she only has the 1v1 potential after like her first 2 items, that's why she is a harder fit. She also loses almost every matchup known to mankind so. Immensely held back by being an AP skirmisher.
@@adamd2772 I wouldn't say. I can't really say any of the new items synergize with her, as they are mage items, so they are burst oriented instead of Gwen's sustained DPS, and even Riftmaker was nerfed. I can see her struggling next season.
The Problem in m elo even If your Team hast a massive goldlead you Go Stop the splittpusher. They Just dont force a fight 4vs4 they Just dance around for 40secs giving the splittpusher time To rotate.
@@Dark_Tesla just had a game with ap cho mid vs ahri. i hardstomped her. min 20 she was 1/8 and i was forced to deal with a 14kill lucian. got 2inhibits. nah i and the kayle who dealt serious dmg both were dead at min 35. they choosed to "defend" baron by fighting mid to contest baron 3vs5- totally ignoring over half of our teams gold is chilling in the gravejard.
Also. I wound also tell my jungler to leave me alone if I’m not hard stomping lane. Come get free kills to help gank other lanes/invade/contest etc. but I specifically tell them to ignore me. My entire existence to to force more of the enemy resources towards me. Communication is important with this play style. Also in the late game I would ALWAYS group with my team when teleport was up. If we lost team fight I just walk out and trade objective
@@Dark_Tesla thats then Point of Teleport. Bit If your einem know your Team isnt coodinated He pushes top you dwfend the He tp bot and gets aninhib while Our Team throwa a danceparty mir. There are splittpusher Like trynda WHO suck at teamfighting but a trundle? He will BE threat in tf.
I thought I remembered seeing this in my sub list weeks ago but it must have been an announcement post with the thumbnail. I searched it and skimmed his video list like 3 times, gave up, refreshed the home menu and there it was "uploaded 1 minute ago" 🤣🤣🤣
Riven’s strength is heavily dependent on the lack of clarity her champ has. Even if you know her moves and all her basic combos she has so many unique interactions that playing against her can become a guessing game as to how much damage you’re about to take. Even if you know how all of her moves, combos, and interactions work you have to be on your toes at all times because she can do everything. Basically Riven has more options as of what to do in non-neutral than any other champ in the game, and that makes her incredibly hard to play against.
Cant agree, if you play alot of Riven and you know her patterns and (more important) cooldowns its pretty obvious what is going to happen most of the time. If you cant Play good vs her: Keep a distance, when she uses all her Qs to get to you she has no DMG left. If she uses E to get to you she wastes her get away spell. If she does a burst trade into you , dont get scared. If you let her simply walk away with all her spells on CD its Auto lose. She is very weak without spells up, and in early game i often notice that people wont punish you for it (i was only Plat with her tho, if you are higher elo this might work non the less)
@@clubstep8244 no damage left after using Qs? are you hearing yourself? most of the time the Qs are just there to auto reset and cc you. the sheen-like passive she gets after using an ability stacking up to three times gives her more than enough damage to hit you hard good Riven players never waste anything on minions unless they don't know you're there to punish them, and I say this as someone who has NEVER player her but is so fking sick of the bullshit she does. you would think her Qs operate the same way as Aatrox Qs do (full cooldown after using third Q) but NOOOOOO they have their own independent cooldowns meaning she can Q 3 times, do something else and a short while later she can Q three times again, even shorter than Aatrox Qs.
@@Geheimnis-c2e okay so you never played her. I play her since nearly 10 seasons. And you try to tell me about what she can do and what she can't? Her Q is her Main damage, or better said her Q fast combo that is about canceling Your Autos with Qs and canceling your Qs with Autos. That is what oneshots people. And if she has no Qs up, she can not pull off that high DPS combo that Deals alot of dmg and allows her to retreat before she can be punished . Ofc she still has her 3 empowered Auto attacks, but you hardly win a trade vs Illaoi for example by Auto attacking her 3 times.
Gwen is more like the four horsewomen's child prodigy rather than an actual member. Also would be kinda cool if they could have a skinline band of their own with Gwen as their manager 😆
Here's my suggestion if you really want to balance Fiora in particular: Make it so her vitals only deal true damage when she has her ult on someone; THOSE vitals deal true damage, all others deal physical damage. This would still give her the tankbusting capabilities she has now without her being an effective counter against a FREAKING MOUNTAIN or an ARMADILLO COVERED IN DEADLY SPIKES THAT RETALIATE AGAINST ANYTHING
one thing i love about these four is the fact that they come from some of the strongest regions in runeterra, Camille- Piltover (The best tech) Fiora- Demacia (The best anti magic people) and Irelia Ionia- (the best synergy with magic) Its quite cool to see imo
It's really amaizing how Riven is a far older champion than the others yet manages to be so dominant and her players always say she is not great. I genuinely think that even with her overloaded kit she would be bearable if she didn't had all those animation cancel while dealing AOE sustained burst, riot has balanced her in such a boring way imo. Still hate fiora more lol.
Wrong. Riot keeps Riven relevant only thru AD scaling buffs and it shows right now poorly Riven is aging as a champion design. Those scaling buffs obsly give her more power at the same time those dont fix a problem that Riven has - 2.1K gold (wardens + steelcaps) and the game becomes unplayable for her and those gigantic AD scalings are not helping. At some point they will not be able to give her more AD scaling buffs, because she will start just one-tapping enemies with her abilities instead of her autos, so they will need to give her some armour pen / shred or % health damage in exchange of AD scaling nerfs. Btw Irelia has a similar problem, but its not as severe as in Rivens case, because Irelia has mixed damage and can itemize Blade of Ruined King. And that leaves us with Camille and Fiora that are the most consistent out of those 4 and that thanks to their ability to deal True Damage which makes them always relevant no matter the meta while Riven and Irelia are borderline unplayable in a Tank meta.
@@bohomazdesign725 This could be said about most auto attack damage champions though??? Armor being a problem isn't specific to riven nor is it any worse especially since black cleaver and seryldas are so amazing on her.
@@MichaelJohnson-wd1le "This could be said about most auto attack damage champions though??? " - not really, ADCs have access 3 damage multiplier items and 2 of them (Kraken + LDR) can be literally build as first and second item which is btw why Tanks are so shit right now. Yes, Seryldas and BC are a thing, but the problem is that she needs 3100 Gold to counter 2100 Gold and then she has to opt into her mythic which means her enemy gets to build another 2 items before she can itemize into Seryldas. Its like an endless chase except you are on the backfoot all the time and you cant really get the resources you need, because 2100 Gold just shuts her down. In other words unless someone is stupid enough to feed Riven in the early game she cant do anything for like 25 minutes (3 items).
As a top laner I far prefer to fight these champions and other skill expressive fighters than some drooling tank or adc. These champs are what top lane is all about, high pressure skill matchups between primarily melee fighters, thats what makes it my favourite role.
Yep. Love that you can go 0/2 as riven vs fiora and still win the next fight, and same vice versa. I hate it in botlane when a 2v2 breaks out where 1 team has a Lead its only one team trying to survive and one trying to kill. In those Top match ups its always a good fight
Just here to add a few unmentioned points for each horsewoman: - Fiora = She's usually squishy enough early-mid game and can be taken down in one rotation if immobilized... Exceeeept, she also can actively punish anything telegraphed w/ her W (and not a lot of crowd control abilities in the game are exempt to that). - Camille = When Vars said she has the lowest consistent damage because her Q is the bulk of her damage, don't forget that her R's duration also gives her bonus 20/40/80+4/6/8% of target's current HP as magic damage on hit. And oh, did I mention she gets bonus attack speed if she lands her E on an enemy champion? - Riven = Her passive used to only work vs. organic enemy units (champs/minions/monsters), but after they allowed 50% of it to work against structures, she's become more than capable of taking turrets in 2-3 minion waves at two items. - Irelia = Skilled users have the option of hiding her initial cast and animation of E (fog of war/walls/brushes) and then recasting once she's already within striking range (through Q/Flash), effectively removing any telegraphed counter-play. Also, she has the option to build AP (fringe cases like Baus, but it can more than work if you're good enough). - All of them love the Conqueror rune keystone, which gives them more damage and sustain the longer a fight goes- and oh boy, do these four have the means to be in a fight for more than 20 seconds.
Camille doesnt buy on hit items except for trinity, so her damage is composed by a far more burst approach. Remember that she only has 125 range and her ultimate is not always up to deal that magic damage. If you miss your E you fucked hard. She struggles in the 1v1 against other duelists and skirmishers with high mobility
@@no7k7k No on-hit? Isn't Triforce->Ravenous Hydra/BotRK->Hexplate->Wit's End->2 tank items good on her nowadays? I agree she's always been more burst than sustained damage, but she still deals decent basic attack damage outside of her EQR in comparison to some of the other burst-trade champs in Top. However, if we compare her against the other three horsewomen (and maybe even Gwen currently in 14.1-.2), she's definitely the most abusable.
These are the 4 AD horsewoman. Don't forget the 4 AP horsewoman: Lillia, Akali, Kayle, and Gwen (though you did mention the last). Also: no Vayne? *_Megamind face_*
I mean Vayne isn’t really a toplaner. She gets picked top a lot bc she’s a good counterpick to some champs and bc she’s bad at botlane early unless she has a pre made support
I feel like Lillia does well or at least okay against all four of them, due to her consistent high movementspeed, which kind of counters most of their abilities - and starting midgame, it‘s not even *that* bad, if she gets caught, because she just ramps up her speed like no one else and probably also has Rylais by then
Irelia is a bad splitpusher LOL, the most important thing when applying presure on sidelane is escape which she doesnt have(u get picked its gg), only aggressive mobility kindla like yasuo, and 1v1 she is actually quite strong especially with bork
I remember b4 mythic items the meta were camilles and fiora were the most dominamt champions of toplane, trinity force, ravenous hydra and sterak, if theu got to those 3 items, not matter how far behind they were it was a instant lose for the enemy team
11:50 As a Yorick main, I find it offensive that you could possibly put down his spike as Trinity force, an item he usually doesn't even build in high elo! He spikes at 4th item, which costs around a total of 12,000 gold, which is why he is so shit. That is, unless he has a good teamcomp matchup, where he spikes 3rd item (hullbreaker), but he needs grudge to catch and duskblade to kill. That, or you could just build Iceborn like a true memer and spike 1st item
riven: infinitive dmg and dashes fiora:infinitive dashes and literally counters cc irelia:gets full build after blade of the ruined king and nifinitive dashes camille: counters attack damage and ability damage and true damage you cant run away infinitive range dash and 1k dmg 2 sec cooldown Q
We call this the toplane "waifu meta". And gwen is the latest member. The only reason i think she is so much weaker than the rest is because of the ap damage. She just has worse items to work with by default and depends on her scaling more like other mages. Whereas all the others are ad, spike much earlier and have more crowd control.
Fiora feels the toughest to beat for me, but Camille is the one I hate the most she’s just rarer than the others. Riven tbh isn’t even a problem at all, and Irelia players are too busy trying to 1v5 on repeat to ever be useful
I feel like it's kind of a problem that Irelia crutches on bork as hard as she does. I don't know if other champions do as much as she does but I think it would be a healthier if they adjusted her kit and tuned down Bork.
@@stellasilverrDarius is so absent from high elo that you find tons of them on every server in high chall and he has more proplay presence than irelia, riven and Camille this year combined...
I dont see irelia/camille/fiora as annoying, i like going against them, there are so many boring champs like trundle/ww in the toplane, and people say these mechanical champions with outplay potential are annoying?
id like to see a video on why malphite is so good but isn't mained by a lot of players or a general video of champions who have high winrates but low main population
Malphite has a high win rate because he is usually a counter pick champion. If the enemy is heavy ad Malphite can just win and even worst if the enemy is full of squishy assassin ad damage dealers ( ap Malphite will just one shot someone and still is tanky enough to be annoying.
Yeah, I would also love this kinda of video Especially because a lot of people use Win rate to defend how weak or strong a champion is, even thou there's way more than just that Champions like Singed have a incredible Win rate, because the 5 guys around the world that play him, KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT THE CHARACTER Which is far different from characters like Yone who are only balanced because of the IMMENSE popularity and playerbase of the character (being one of the most popular male champions)
@@kainakrit9311 Just to clarify, are you talking about that time old asol was broken and then they started to nerf him (the Asol pre "Nerf Asol meme" like...10 years ago), or the pos-rework one? (Probably this one) Well, if you're talking about rework Asol, you need to remember that it was almost a completely new character that had 55% Win rate on his first month of existence, while being one of the hottest picks (for obvious reasons) of the same month. And...I didn't get what are you trying to say with this...Yuumi and Briar both had and Win rate on the 35% when they launched.....While being both extremely broken on launch (ESPECIALLY Yuumi that broke competitive for some time) Win rate it's not always the most important factor as the Asol/Yuumi/Briar example shows....(sorry, if I misunderstood your comment...or if I was too serious.....xD)
As a fiora otp i disagree with the point towards the end that says that they can all get back into the game even if they get shut down early. Fiora from behind is almost unplayable, your teamfighting is only decent when ahead and you'll just get poked down before doing anything in a fight and her spiltpush pressure is conditional on her being able to hold her own at least in a 1v2. Other than that good vid
So the unspoken rule about top laners having to perpetually match the opposing top laner, as well as another, arguably more valid reason for why top laners exert so much pressure, is because top lane champions are well rounded. Most top lane champions have damage mitigation, either in the form of shields or a stance that reduces incoming damage. They also have mobility in the form of a dash or leap. They also usually have built-in sustain, and even if they don't, they can easily itemize for life steal. And of course, crowd control. Because of this, top lane champions are the best jack-of-all-trades champions, which means they do well with or without teammates (emphasis on the "without"), therefore, top laners split-push and answer split-pushes. Marksmen are the only class in the game that ALMOST checks every one of these boxes, but they miss out on the damage mitigation criteria and the CC. Other than that, marksmen and top lane champions tend to have the most all-arounder kits. That's also why marksmen have such poor early game stats. It offsets their kits being well-suited for almost every aspect of the game in roaming, extended trades, sustain, objective damage, and team-fighting. It's also why some marksmen end up in top lane or mid lane, but always end up being a point of player frustration, like Lucian or Tristana in the solo lanes.
