This was amazing. It was so much fun watching Benjamin's mind being blown about the weird rituals adolescent girls get up to. I think many young girls believe to a degree that they could be witches. Lisa and Eliza are brilliant guests. This was a rich conversation that really tickled me.
@@Hidinginyourcupboard Absolutely. I have been thinking recently about how in English we lack vocabulary to describe the experience of menstruation. The physical sensations women experience during menstruation are not easily described and yet I have at times felt completely consumed by the process. At times when I was younger I felt like surely people around me could tell I was on my period, it was such a visceral and overwhelming state. There is something strange about this going on internally for all these millions of women and yet being invisible, both literally but also within the language and culture. Maybe that gives reality itself a more fantastical and magical feeling. I often reflect on how completely bizarre this is, even more so because many men remain oblivious to this abiding difference in our day to day lives.
Such an interesting observation about there being no expressions describing the body feeling of bleeding (except perhaps negative ones like “cramping” etc…there is a wide variety of feeling during moontime as well as a sort of fugue-esque feeling of being in a liminal space
@@HerWanderlust Yes, definitely, like feeling that you are in an altered state. And all the strange sensations in the lower body that get described sometimes as 'bearing down'? I can get really strong pain in my legs and feet at that time, and a sort of heavy sensation and a feeling of being 'clouded'.
This was a beautiful interview. I feel there were so many subtle and wonderful points. I am walking away with ideas on how to improve myself as a woman. ❤️ I would love to hear from these ladies again. Thank you for a wonderful calmversation.
Two of my favourite minds, thank you so much. I was thinking about the expression, as relates to older people spending time with young ones, that it "keeps them young". Why would we want to do that? (I get keeping *current*, that's different). My grandmother had a weekly Scrabble club, four women in their late 80s. When one of them had to bow out due to Alzheimer's, I stepped in, in my 40s. They were wonderful evenings - those women had done a lot of living. They'd been young & innocent, they'd fallen in love, married, raised kids, had adventures, suffered great losses, lived through momentous historical events, and looked after each other - all the things. They got annoyed about the health issues associated with aging, but I never got the sense they wished they were young again. I think it was much more important for me to be with them than the other way around.
Also, I totally relate to the ritual barbie burning. Lots to unpack there. (In the late 50s my dad & his stepbrother frisbeed all their Elvis Presley albums into the ravine - I wonder if there was a similar motivation there).
My elder friend says this too-I believe she means that as we get older we can fall into rigid ideas and stop growing as people and exploring the world with curiosity 💚
"The gender critical movement really is a women's movement" Exactly, it's so very important to give credit to the women who have been fighting so valiantly against the women academicians who deserve credit equally for having formulated, promoted, and normalized trans ideology and trans activism on campuses, in nonprofits, and in politics everywhere. Yeah, women all around ! #gyoncentrism
@@Knight-s2oIndeed, they gay movement, like many other institutions, has been hijacked by power/political ambitions and greed - The Great Reset is at the bottom of the iceberg where all this modern puppetry is stemming from.
The animated film "The Song of the Sea" is superbly done, as is "The Secret of Kells" by the same director. They're both gorgeously animated and deeply moving. I got them for our mother-daughter film nights and she loved them. There are many excellent movies on the human condition that are appropriate for adolescents/young adults. Here's my playlist for difficult topics: Anime films: A Cat in Paris (age 10+) Coraline (not for kids under 11) Spirited Away The Bread Winner Grave of the Fireflies (14+) Non-Anime: Little Miss Sunshine Billy Elliott The Breakfast Club Les Choristes Girl Interrupted Jim Carroll Streets of New York Catch Me if You Can The Fault in Our Stars My Left Foot Pan's Labyrinth One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest Au Revoir Les Enfants Green Book
I’d span far more time and themes. “Billy Elliot” got claimed by twink lovers and has a creepy following at this point, although I liked it (and other films) before they became films that meant to embrace GNC and got claimed by my gay community, which defeats the point a little. Like the original animated “Mu Lan” had nothing to do with being gay or trans (as the legend does not either). “The Joy Luck Club” remains a good film to cover generations of being a woman (as well as different cultures). A pro-lesbian film, that doesn’t cater or compromise to male fantasy, is extremely hard to find. You don’t even see butches portrayed as they truly look in most cases. They just get left out, which is a crime. Orange is the New Black is exaggerated and barely based off a problematic book by a problematic author (clearly a sociopath) but I was glad to see the topic of female prisons brought up - although her voice was very taxing to wade through. I’d also argue that it’s incomplete without “Labyrinth” (many girls say that film is a sexual awakening for them, plus the themes it deals with are important). BTW “Grave of the Fireflies” came well after a brilliant comic and anime known as “Barefoot Gen” - based on real life people, including the author. I absorbed it at 11 years old, but I was an unusual kid, also reading Stephen King’s “It” (no movie, just my own idea), who had an interest in medical aspects of the body as well (it has rl body horror). I never felt the same way about WWII, but I didn’t get feral about it (common to kids today) just more inquisitive and questioning; it also gave me far more understanding about. I recommend most anything by Osamu Tezuka or Satoshi Kon. The American interpretation of AstroBoy is pretty bad though. “The Burning Bed” had a big impact on my family, domestic violence is a very important topic to introduce to adolescents and it seems more ignored than ever (conversely while conflating many non-violent behavior AS violence in culture). I think I prefer “Pretty in Pink” to Breakfast Club, because it shows an important relationship of a girl with her main parent (in this case, a father). So is “Kramer vs Kramer” or “Irreconcilable Differences” show more complex relationships with parents - healthy and not. Similarly, “Diary of a Mad Housewife” is a better take than “Barbie” and more realistic. Then there is “Norma Rae” and “Erin Brockovich” and even Rosanne Barr (the original tv show) fighting for rights and using their feminist values and femininity to offer specific and empowering viewpoints. Whoopee Goldberg was a huge role model for me growing up, but now…she’s an embarrassment; I hate it, but not going to believe things haven’t changed, I also firmly believe she should start going by her real name (and stop the Jewish appropriation that was acceptable & funny in the past, especially with all the preaching she does now). I think we need a film, in this era, to show that just being gay or trans doesn’t automatically make the person better or incapable of being toxic (which is a mistake so many girls/women are making lately). I seem to be flashing on perhaps a foreign film, but I can’t recall the name of it atm (and I’d double-check the content), but I recall the mtf parent or adult friend was sculpted into something more complex than just putting them on a pedestal (and the younger female had to figure that out). You know, like a gay “All About Eve”. Another excellent vintage Hollywood film. So is, “Mildred Pierce”. Perhaps, also, “Victor Victoria”? “Crooklyn” isn’t pandering or insulting to growing up as a Black girl, it also is real and raw in contrast to Little Miss Sunshine’s more glowing and surrealistic take. Most honest look I’ve seen on urban childhood. For a surreal and real take on womanhood, “Baghdad Cafe” stayed a favorite. For even more surrealism, and to combat “Barbie”, I’d pick “Enchanted” or even “The Last Unicorn”. Anyway, I’m babbling. I also watched so much truly adult material before i was an adult. The more sophisticated adult films I watched like “Rebecca” or “Now, Voyager” were good when I watched them, but grew deeper in meaning as I got older and my own emotions and life experiences grew. I actually adored a Japanese film called “Air Doll” about very adult topics, yet incredibly poignant about a lead character whose a sex doll. Hell, I also liked “Elvira”, but is she now an acceptable role model bc she came out as gay??
Thank you so much, Lisa, for your explanation of the role of the mental health profession and how to think about the symbolic nature of symptoms as manifestations of needs in the inner world. That was beautifully said. I'm a Dream School member and was happy to hear you talking in another forum and bringing that forth.
Lol at Benjamin being wide eyed at Elizas young girl stories meanwhile I’m like yup can relate😂 especially the girls pretending to be boys and flirting with other girls, thinking back I had a few experiences like that I remember “marrying” my best friend when we were 10 and she wanted to be the boy and I wanted to be the girl, we were playing out roles, she grew up to be a lesbian, and I’m straight😂
These types of conversations, that have come out of this whole “gender thing,” between women like these two here have been completely transformative and have helped and saved me in more ways than I can express verbally. Thank you THANK YOU for this conversation. The bits about fairytales and the double-edged sword of intense fantasy life really speaks to me. I want to be best friends with Eliza and Lisa after this conversation! 😅💕 (also I just purchased all the books mentioned here and added the authors mentioned to my booklist. For those interested- Angela Carter’s the Bloody Chamber and Book of Fairytales are fantastic as well!)
Love this conversation and these women's perspectives. Coming of age in the 80s: best friendships like nonsexual marriages, sisterhood (not being mean girls or competing for guys), long psychological and philosophical discussions, everyone reading the existentialists, punk rock, male friends and boyfriends who wore skirts and eyeliner, cool with LGBT, keeping it real and hating anything fake, massive sexual harassment and violence, self-destructiveness, no parents around.
@@vthompson947 Yeah, it was more like gay culture and a sense of championing for “gay rights” if you were in groups that were more creative or artistic - like the Goth community.
@@vthompson947 my social groups had a lot of people identifying as lesbian, gay, bisexual, asexual, androgynous, and a good friend transitioned in the 90s. does that not count as LGBT? we marched etc. for AIDS research, gay and lesbian rights, etc. and supported LGBT organizations. so, yes, there was LGBT in the 80s, at least in urban environments, including a theatre, dance club, drag bars, a "gay ghetto"...
I am so happy I am old and the worst things we did was fan over music groups and dye our hair, wear mini skirts and bellbottoms. Barbie is not the ultimate female role model. Never has been.
Ms. Lisa and Ms. Side-eyes ❤ A welcome podcast to ease our way into a weekend of sunshine and hot weather. Times like this I am OK that Benjamin keeps me locked in basement🐈Eliza and Lisa are just so wonderful together. There is so much respect and love for each other's work they do and is so nice to see them share it with us. This is definitely a double SUPER-BONK opportunity and happy that I was a part of it🐱
@@NinjaKittyBonks Ah, you almost had me. But the request for catnip gave you away. BB must have staged a tough love intervention to get you to kick the habit. I'll not have it on my conscience that I served as your enabler. Just tough it out. I know you don't feel it now, but later on, after you've come through to the other side, you'll be grateful.
@@petersmall1574 .... but, but, but.... The Kitty is jonesin' big time 😿. The following video was taken at a low-point, but I can _assure_ you that I am all cleaned up now: ru-vid.comEZpi3k7CA7U
@@NinjaKittyBonks First, I want to affirm your courageous honesty and the degree of self-awareness you reveal with your willingness to admit to and expose to the world the level of depraved degradation to which you can sink just for another snort of the weed. I mean, c'mon man, you brought out the claws. And we all know that's just not cool. That's a good step. A really important one. But, Kitty, Kitty, Kitty, you continue to suffer from the junkie's delusion that you can stop at just one little sniff of the herb, one little pink, sandpaper surfaced tongue stroke across a stash of the green stuff. You think you can let the monkey onto your back and then just toss him back off after you've got your fix. You think you can climb onto the dragon's back and ride him only partway, ring the bell and tell him to let you off at the next stop. But we all know that's not how it works. The monkey and the dragon, respectively, once they each dig their claws into you they don't let go and you're in it for the whole trip, man, however far and deep it goes. And then, sooner or later, when someone tries to let you know you've had enough, that's when you follow the demon's bidding and release your own claws to hurt the ones you love. So, no, Kitty, no. I've seen it happen way too many times. And always in the same way. Just like in the song. The nip and the damage done . . .
What a different take on what is happening to people at the moment. It is like we create a picture of ourselves on the internet then react to the likes you get.
@@AshleyWilliams-xq7lj It’s sus how ppl say “don’t trust anyone over 30”, yet it’s harder to brainwash ppl at that age - you finally have enough real life experience and may have overcome some serious personal hurdles.
Trying to live in fantasy fascinates me. When I was younger I had periods where I really, really tried to live an invented life and it just didn't work for me. It makes me think of the film Heavenly Creatures -I just went searching for it, Google tells me it was based on true events. I've been thinking about that film a lot lately. About the construction of fantasy and the increased desperation of the person trying to hold together the fabric of their creation to keep it going, the escalation of crazy lengths that the creator will go to.
The whole spoon metaphor has always struck me as cringe when taken too literally with today’s youth. It makes me think of adults still referring to their family as “parental units”. It was interesting to see it discussed out loud, particularly with someone unfamiliar. I really, really appreciated though understanding WHY women don’t value learning to get better and function. Which many people, including myself, with disabilities STRIVED for (usually the type that doesn’t go around discussing their conditions at all, let alone sticking them on their profile as a main identity).
I think it depends-some people are just naturally more creatively imaginative and can literally see and feel and believe things others do not think are real (but they are real to that person-they have experienced these things as real). In my experience more you learn about life, the world, nature, history etc the more you see that reality isn’tas concrete as we’d like it to be. There is wiggle room on some things. The danger comes when the imaginary world is forced upon the people of the real world (like in gender ideology)
@@HerWanderlust be as creative as one wants! that has no bearing on distinguishing reality! Artists don't have more difficulty distinguishing reality. That is in the land of the religious.
Let our preteens and adolescents give themselves time. They don’t have to engage in or announce their sex roles until they are ready. Sex is just one part of human life not all of it. And it’s only truly great when we are ready for it.
1:12:47 - I recall a similar experience when I was around 12 in which my scout troop and I became suddenly possessed by a strange desperate urge to destroy an American flag, I swear everyone one of us knew what we’re doing was wrong, like some kind of sacrilege, and it’s precisely that we felt it to be wrong that we did it.
@@tablescissors I hate that book, William Golding is a man I have absolutely zero trouble imagining as an American school teacher... and I definitively intend that as a insult. I don't think it's any more complicated than basic boundary testing in childhood, the quickest way to learn what's good is to act out what taboos have been taken for granted as bad; the seminal point of that experience was that the symbol of the flag after the dithyrambic destruction of it became subjectively real to us whereas before it was objectively ambiguous.
Regarding the false dichotomy of "real issue" and "false issue" - trans identity or paralysis - I wonder if social contagion acts like hypnosis. If they're hypnotized that they're paralysed, there's no physical reason someone can't move, but their belief is such that they unconsciously sabotage every attempt to disprove it by trying to move, and thus re-affirm the belief. In the "affirmative care" approach to gender identity, society also sabotages attempts to challenge the belief.
I recall Kobe (in a few videos back) remarked how his puberty blockers made him hyper sensitive and offended when people didn't affirm his idea of himself being a women. Perhaps a lot of heightened distress could be medically induced or enhanced?
good points about connecting with people across the generations. All young people can be a bit dismissive of older people but it does seem like younger millenials and Gen Z in particular are more likely to ignore older generations as irrelevant to themselves (see "ok boomer" etc). I think it's because of the internet and computer culture being a deep part of their world their whole life, unlike older generations. Looking at the media you'd think older women don't really exist or have value. If you don't have great mentors to look up to then all you'd want to do is be young forever.
42:20 Really interesting point about how knowing something can't be changed allows for acceptance. Instead of seeing puberty as an inevitable inconvenient phase of life that will eventually pass, it becomes a "problem" that you seek a "solution" for. And in the case of many kids now that ends up being blockers and transitioning, which is really concerning considering that before the affirmation model took over, they found that the majority of dysphoric children desisted after puberty was passed. There used to be a push to teach children to accept their bodies, but now there is this sort of transhumanist shift of encouraging altering the body. We're even seeing NB people wanting to just erase signs of gender altogether.
Gay men, in particular, know that male beauty is even more fleeting and appears even younger (There is a reason the Greeks and Romans partook in the type of child love that we do not agree with now). Women, often want men to to embody a kind of elegant masculinity that many heterosexual men eschew, particularly if they can’t make oodles of money or gain gobs of attention for it (see Rock Stars and Princes); it also is often as false and structured as women’s idealized sexy appearances.
My experience with GenZ girls is they identify with music of my youth, 1980/1990s. They prefer Grunge, Industrial and Metal. They like to watch Gilmore Girls or Thr Office, or Stranger Things. I love GenZ. They are very mystical. They like witchy and hippie things. They are also far more confident, but not in a narcissistic way, more of a, I know of my limitations, but I'm going to make myself as strong as I can attain. They are frugal too. They also love being mothers and aunties.
As an old lady I love menopause. I loved the stopping of my periods. I don’t enjoy hot flashes, but they are far more manageable than being fertile until I die. I no longer have to carry tampons and worry about an irregular period or old age pregnancy…yuck how is modern medicine proposing to deal with that?. I am still female and always be female.
Maybe it's about doing away with the symptoms of menopause? Im lregnant with my 3rd at 40 and, man, it's kicking my butt. I can't imagine why anyone would want to be 70, 80, 90 and risking pregnancy. That would be tragic for everyone.
Idioms of distress equals the ultimate dog whistle, cause you manufacture it for yourself, very sad and very "real". More importantly Ben when did stop caring about your hair? Teasing. Great stuff, thumbs up to your guests 👍
Femina sua vanitate alitur. I think some of the problem is the unwillingness to accept that irrationally greater demands for attention is the default setting for a large number of women
@@annarboriterThis has been my observation as well. There's nothing wrong with it, as most men are the opposite way. Men and women balance each other out in a beautiful way. I'm autistic, so I'm the opposite. Funny enough, my husband is an attention seeker. Ben said in another video that men want to adore and women want to be adored. My husband and I are flipped, but we're doing the same dance as other couples. It's interesting how we unconsciously seek little things like that in partners.
@@annarboriter That wouldn’t explain the growing trend of AGPs though. Although, yes, aspects of female psychology and vanity can differ from masculine ones - men definitely have it too.
@@tablescissors Are you equating AGP with the growing trend of transwomen? There have always been AGP as well as crossdressers and I have not seen any reliable numbers to demonstrates that the number has increased. I have noticed greater visibility and promotion by the alphabet advocacy groups after gay marriage became codified into law. The real growing trends are with gay men who have felt compelled to opt into idetifying as transwomen and later on as detransitioners. That didn't even exist until trans activism began promoting gender ideology and celebrating trans liberation. Oh, the other trend is the number of television series documenting the castration of a little boy. That one is definitely a recent trend
You need to see a hormone specialist or menopause specialist, many women have hormones way out of whack, particularly do to stress and many years on birth control.
Around 7:00 - that level of attention seeking could be described as “histrionic” and it’s not a good sign, especially the older a person gets, it’s a warning sign of a personality disorder (along with many other signs) and there is a problem with normalizing and encouraging behaviors normally found in the Cluster B category; we’re practically breeding #narcissism in society. And yeah, you see way to many people bragging, really, about having mental illness and supposed disabilities.
Its weird how Eliza said the definitive music and styles were gone when she was in school, but she's about my age and we had emo, goth, prep, punk, scater, stoner, metalheads, gamers etc.
We had a small clutch of emo kids and a few entirely solitary metalheads... but a few years too late for goths and punk. Wasn't exactly a big vibrant metro area or anything where I grew up, though. Not an aspirational enough area to have preppy kids. It was like: jocks, cheerleaders, theatre kids, band kids, loners, losers, basics?
Try having a fake identity pushed on you, as hundreds of thousands of adoptees have, or being called a birthmother when your baby was actually snatched. These are identity issues that affect multitudes today.
That's a really important point. We considered fostering for a while. Our house isn't suitable really (the safety checklists are next level, our house is a bit quirky) so it never came to pass but I never fully reconciled the fact that it was traumatic to separate kids from parents. I know sometimes it's a good thing... But not every case is a clear cut win when a child is removed. I wish there was more fostering of pregnant teens, along with their babies - that would make a real positive difference.
Wow, I have had both of those experiences in my life. I never thought about being adopted as a fake identity, but it definitely was, and it definitely affected me. I am not David, lol I am a woman.
I wonder if anyone has ever researched a connection between how women living in groups (dorm hall, apartments, etc.) will often have their periods synch up and the phenomenon of their socially contagious emotions.The period seems like a physical manifestation of the same principal at work among teenage girls becoming sad/depressed/anxious/anorexic/hysterical in social groups.
Periods don't synch up. There are only a set number of days in a month, some females will menstruate on same dates, we tend to find each other, and it makes is appear as though our cycle changed, but our cycle is innate, it does not shift.
@@bee-eu6cg Being at the same time does not mean "synched". There are a set number of days in a month, of course odds are that some females are on same days, and sometimes several females.
9:20 I notice this sometimes when I'm crying for one reason or another, I'm completely calm inside. Like I could stop it whenever I like, but not really, BUT it seems like a performance even to me. Should I not be unable to introspect at those moments? Lost in misery, or hysteria or something? It's unnerving. So it *does* happen to other people.
I have a feeling they reject it because it was used to indoctrinate and psychologically abuse them. I grew up on Christian culture and it is inherently abusive to tell kids they will go to hell and be separated from God for normal thoughts and actions. I personally appreciate the Bible as a fairy tale and symbolic text of its own, but I can see why many reject it completely…it was a tool of our trauma
33:30 - I always dealt with friends like this was the case. If they're acting in an attention-seeking way then why....? It still leaves that, but people would just say "she's attention seeking" and leave them. It's a fine line but I think zero attention isn't always the answer. "Why is she attention seeking?" seems to be a better question.
28:10 - I'm trans, mtf, and I found that one odd even in my late 20s. I think it was more that I was just so used to being seen as not a sexual thing at all by men. Then it changed a lot fast. I can't imagine that at like 13 or 14 though. I'm scared for my niece.
