The Great Debate Over 12-Step Programs with Tommy Rosen 

You may have just prevented me from writing off AA forever, so thank you. I initially become sober through a combination of psychotherapy--mainly focusing on how addiction is caused by trauma in life which creates painful feelings which we have not learnt to cope with through healthy means--and a supportive partner and friend group. I am an atheist, and I have only been to a few meetings so far, but my first reaction is that it feels like an exclusive club where one must fit into a specific criteria, or it won't work for them at all. I feel like I can't be my true, honest self there. Don't get me wrong, everyone is super welcoming and friendly, and I have not had any bad experiences with specific people, but simply reading the 12 steps make me feel like an imposter and outsider, because I have some qualms with the literal interpretation in their original form. I am afraid not to say "...and I'm an alcoholic" if that does not feel like my truth on any given day, but maybe I will try thanks to your encouragement. Your wisdom that "language is everything", and your examples and encouragement to reinterpret steps and passages that initially do not make sense to me is incredibly helpful, because of course I agree with all of the underlying principles like love, honesty, acceptance, connection and a desire to heal to be the healthiest versions of ourselves etc. I need to be patient and find that common thread which leads to the values and virtues that are universally shared by so many seemingly opposing religions, doctrines and belief systems. You have helped me keep an open mind and be curious, and I am very grateful to you for that. Keep up the amazing work that you're doing. I'm looking forward to checking out your other teachings. Thank you, thank you, thank you. -Joe

Thank you so much for recording this talk. I found it very helpful, with the bottom line being let us people in recovery, by any means, respect each other's pathways to recovery that work for them in a positive way. Let's not be denouncers. Let's be a part of growing up, creating room for others in our hearts, and taking action to improve our fellow community members' odds for recovery and a quality life of meaning and purpose. I found many things wrong with the 12-step program when I was in early recovery. I was so sensitive, so isolated, so haughty, and so fearful that I judged with contempt anything or anyone that pinged my inner sense of not good enough. After all, I had been secretly struggling to recover myself for eleven years, and had failed miserably. So, I couldn't allow something I didn't even understand, to "work." I can see how the 12 steps would not work for many, many people. But the 12 steps--after a long, hard fight--began to work for me and I will be forever grateful. It hurts me when people denigrate the 12-step programs because I am standing there a changed woman, being told that the 12-steps are harmful. I know counselors and therapists who still believe that 12-step programs are cults. Whenever I hear something negative about 12-step programs, I evaluate whether there is anything that I can do to change it. For example, there is a lot of talk of how dangerous it is to attend 12-step meetings for women. I wrote to the General Service Office (GSO) and they sent me helpful suggestions, including language that could be used in meeting preambles or otherwise, which speaks of 12-step programs being a "microcosm of society," and therefore (which may have prompted a need for the locked door another commenter mentioned - who knows?) participants must be aware and alert to possible dangers. Here is what the GSO sent and what I shared with my 12-step home group. I am now considering asking for a group conscience as to whether we might review this material on some sort of periodic basis. Suggested Statement on Safety Our group endeavors to provide a safe meeting place for all attendees and encourages each person here to contribute to fostering a secure and welcoming environment in which our meetings can take place. As our Traditions remind us, the formation and operation of an A.A. group resides with the group conscience. Therefore, we ask that group members and others refrain from any behavior which might compromise another person’s safety. Also, please take the precautions you feel are necessary to ensure your own personal safety, for example, walking to your car in a group after a meeting. If a situation should arise where someone feels their safety is in jeopardy, or the situation breaches the law, the individuals involved should take appropriate action. Calling the proper authorities does not go against any A.A. Traditions and is recommended when someone may have broken the law or endangered the safety of another person. Service Material from the General Service Office F-211_Safety_Card.indd 1 9/14/17 4:15 PM 100M - 9/17 (GP) F-211 Our Common Welfare Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of us will surely die. Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual welfare follows close afterward. -Tradition One (Long Form) It is hoped that our common suffering as alcoholics and our common solution in A.A. will transcend most issues and curtail negative behaviors that could jeopardize the safety of anyone attending an A.A. meeting. Nevertheless, Alcoholics Anonymous is a microcosm of the larger society we exist in. As such, problems found in the outside world can also make their way into the rooms of A.A. For this reason, groups and members discuss the topic of safety - to raise awareness in the Fellowship and to seek through sponsorship, workshops and meetings, to create as safe an environment as possible to carry A.A.’s message of hope and recovery to the still-suffering alcoholic. Again, thank you for your topic. I hope we will be seeing more of this ~

Awesome message Mr. Rosen! I agree with your "Do not argue among ourselves." Sharing our story is the most powerful tool we have to help others see that recovery is possible. I'm coming up on my 25th anniversary of sobriety. The 12 Steps have been at the core of my new life. That doesn't mean I have no respect for other paths. I try to incorporate other techniques/methods that will help me improve my life in recovery. One of my favorite quotes of all time..."When the student is ready the teacher appears." That's been my experience in all areas of my life. Look forward to future videos!

This is hands down the most beneficial recovery video I’ve seen, and I’ve been watching you for years. Words are spells....thank you so much for tackling language 🦋 Also, thank you for addressing the challenge of being a woman in these groups....I’ve had terrible experiences with men in AA.....I shaved my head and stopped wearing makeup to try to deflect unwanted attention. I haven’t found the courage to go back yet....

The BEST video that I've seen yet on recovery!!! 💯 Thank you so very much!!! 😊

Thank you Tommy. I appreciate you

As a recovering person and licensed clinical professional. I hope people are open minded to 12 step programs. They saved my life. 8 and half years clean.

Currently I am studying both recovery and 12 step fellowships. I quickly came to the conclusion that Most of the aspects that make these programs successful Are basic universal understanding Of the human condition. Things like a faith in something larger than yourself. Self monitoring through inventory. Finding a tribe Who shares similar values and goals. Giving back.

It was refreshing to watch this video. I too believe that people have the right to choose their recovery pathway. Just think how nice it would be if the treatment industry and drug courts extended the same curtesy. The animosity people have toward the 12-Steps and the divisions within the recovery community stem from the treatment industry’s allegiance to the singularity of recovery. This one size fits all approach to recovery has never achieved more than marginal success and it’s highly unlikely that it will grow more than its current ratio within the recovery community. The 12-Steps are a belief system not a medical treatment, hence the inability to convert everyone. The same is true with other belief systems such as religion or political parties, even within Christianity there are over 38,000 different denominations. To think one recovery pathway will serve everyone is not only unrealistic, it’s untenable and defies logic. Good treatment is client-centered, helping individuals develop healthier lifestyles by matching their strengths with activities and goals that resonate with the client’s beliefs and values, not the beliefs and values of the treatment facility. This singularity of recovery has become a barrier to improving recovery rates, is feeding the growing anti- 12-Step sentiment and impedes human understanding of addiction.

I've got 30 minutes clean, but the effects of the last hour are still clouding my mind..

This is such a great video. I recovered from that seemingly hopeless state of mind and body but I have a hard time with polarizers in our followership. I have been blessed with thirty years of sobriety, of which about 17 years have been very disciplined in my 12 step practice. I never became a thumper, and I have heard and seen the fellowship both mirror the fellowship of the spirit or dress apathy up as some spiritual virtue. I, fell into a category I like to believe I held all by myself was , Intolerant of the intolerant After further development I saw that I became that which I held contempt for previously. I have studied so many other modalities ad well. This tells me that my way is not THE way. Thank you

You're awesome sauce, Tom!

🙏 Thank you,😌, .... forgiving me permission to evolve,

Yes 🙌

Yes

The introspective process and reframe that comes from inventories has to be universal.

Joseph pruner totatally agree just been discharged from rehab in the UK I struggled. the things I was hearing in meetings I felt the in recovery were being someone else. I really felt uncomfortable listening to the guys that were in recovery they were more focused on others recovery the 13 stepper. I had to question my self it was my first time in rehab and the other guys in recovery had been back 3 times logical it don't work for them. Tommy Rosen Tommy Rosen

The group literally started from a Christian church and it had absolutely nothing to do with science or psychology. The founder took six of the 12 steps from this Christian group, and made the next six. He said the number had no rhyme or Reason, it just seemed right. He got all of this from a vision from God. What else is there to debate? Sometimes I can't fathom how stupid people are. 🤣 This guy says he's not giving his opinion, only what happened, but what happened is based on his perspective, which is an opinion. This has nothing to do with empirical data, that over 90% of people fail in these 12 step programs. This is indoctrination at its finest; like a wide Christian that finally saw the light, and can no longer think for themselves. Did you notice, he never once debated anything? He never once brought up any adverse effects of 12-step? He said things like "we could talk about this negative aspect" but he never actually did. This is the same brainwashed attitude and face you see on cult members. They always have excuses for their double standards and hypocrisy.

Thank you so much for the work you do for recovery. I love your passion, knowledge, wisdom, & energy. I so agree that language can be such a barrier to communication and understanding. Peace ☮️

Yes

The dilution of quality content in RU-vid is a real thing.

Great video ... I'm 17 years in 12 steps (Brazil) - family members - CODA, Alanon, ACA, and now struggling a lot in DA and UA ....😢 I love the clarity and ease way that you explain recovery teachings. Thank you for your service to humanity.

How could you have a negative experience with a spiritual principle? That doesn't make sense to my brain. At worst you couldn't apply the principle and therefore it didn't have any effect on your life. But I can't see how trying to apply one of the spiritual principles of 12 step fellowship Would have someone coming away with a negative experience.

But what to do when u have absolutely nobody to do the inventory with? The only way is on ur own,or not al all...and I'll think I'll go with the first.

Anyone argue with this is hindering their recovery...open mind is vital

Years ago I arrived at an AA meeting about 5 minutes after the start time. The door was locked. I could see the attendees sitting in there, and couldn't understand how they could lock someone out of a meeting that wanted to attend. I mean it's not like anyone is gonna come barreling into an AA meeting and disrupt the whole thing. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but it seems to me that is a risk that needs to be taken if you are trying to help every person you can. I have noticed this "cliquish" behavior at several AA meetings. That one incident completely turned me off to AA (well not just that incident, but it was the straw that broke the camel's back).

Your the best⭐️

Yes

Hi Tommy - being in 12 steps 4 months and going through a HUGE step away and reflection over this choice, I must say: it is a very agonizing process but an important one. First of all, where I come from there is little to no knowledge of 12 steps alternatives, so when stepping away I really felt like I'm turning my back to healing & sanity. This was a hard and a little scary feeling... thoughts like "will I ever find my way?", "I'm doomed", "I have no chance to heal without 12 steps", "12 steps is the ONLY way" and other dramatic thoughts went through my head over and over again. Secondly, I felt very pressed to accept the program as it is, even though nobody forced anything - I did get that vibe of "you're on your own" when I stepped away. That caused me to develop resentment and anger toward the 12 steps, but also motivate me to go look for answers - like you said. That space to explore and realize my inner path to sanity, sobriety, connection. I can't stress how much this debate helped me let go and really see the real thing here is separation - and the real answer is oneness. There is no "right way". Even inside the 12 steps, people interpret the steps in various ways, some of them very dogmatic, obsessive, and maybe religious. That doesn't mean the program is "wrong", or perfect. As a side note, the universe is constantly expanding, nothing is constant. A program old as 12 steps get modified or abandoned on one hand, and is attached harder by others. This is just a natural thing and should be blessed by all. The more 12 steps programs close themselves to the possibility they are not special, and the program itself is just a grain in the universe of possibilities... the more people will go find other ways and develop judgment. It's all good - also in Christianity it happens. First, there is the truth. then comes the worship. then self-reflection, and finally it sets into place as one of many. thank you so much. I'd be so happy to talk with you!!

Unconditional love. Tommy starts with it threads it all the way through. Perhaps if we see our higher power as loving us unconditionally, we can love ourselves in that way, and love the other in that way. Start there. If we love ourselves and others that way, we are also returning that love back to our source, our higher power. Love without expecting anything in return. ALL the spiritual traditions and reconnections (re-ligions) flow with that divine loving force that leads to recovery and healing. Find A WAY to put yourself in the path of another (it may be yourself!!) who needs help, healing, recovery. The WAY is whatever method brings unconditional love into that life. That is your consent to accept the divine presence, for that presence IS ❤️ love.

This was the best recovery talk I’ve heard. Thank you for speaking the truth.

Thank you for this video it was very inspiring

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