The Great Deception - Pastor Joe Schimmel 

I had the same experience!

MacArthur does not "teach" this. He off the cuff responded to a Q & A session question in error and is now paying the price... His Sermon on Nov. 28, 1993, Angelic Messengers, covers Rev. 14:6-11.

Amen!!

+Valerie Montez We don't have a live feed just yet, but we upload our teachings on iTunes every week. Simply search "Blessed Hope Chapel" on iTunes or "Joe Schimmel". God bless!

+Good Fight Ministries. thanks for the reply GFM, however I don't have a iPhone.

I think it is really important to read the context of that verse to see what Paul was actually trying to explain. Philippians 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus But why is Paul confident that God who will began a good work in them will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus? The verses previous tell us: Philippians 1:3-5 I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, always offering prayer with joy in my every prayer for you all, in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now. The Philippians were following the Lord. They were participating in the gospel and doing so from the first day Paul had met them until the very moment he was writing this letter. The confidence that He had was because they had been faithful to Christ. If I heard that you had been diligently serving the Lord since the first day we met, I would be confident that God would finish the work that He began in you as well. Paul's confidence was that they were truly new creations and that they would continue to work diligently for the Lord. I believe in context that this verse has nothing to do with either conditional or eternal security, but rather an encouragement from Paul to a faithful church.

I’ve come to see in my own personal life that God will continue to pursue those who once gave their heart to Christ & then fell away. It really depends on how willing we are to submit to Him. He never gives up on those who truly are His.

@@TheChadxdavidson Good answer

+Yochanan 011 While I completely agree with you on multiple accounts. I feel like Scripture differentiates from those whom Jesus declares "I never knew you" (Matthew 7:21-23) and those who "went out from of because they were not of us" (1 John 2:19) from those who are brethren and fall away. Such as the warning in James 5:19-20 and Hebrews 3:12 (Both are called brethren), and the promise to those who endure that they will never have their name blotted out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5), which would seem to imply that their name was written in there at some point.. We also have in 1 Timothy 1:19 this talk about those who have "shipwrecked their faith". To shipwreck seems to imply that they were once on the boat of salvation, if you will. Would you agree?

+Yochanan 011 so considering these two doctrines.. which is better? which is safer? which is more dangerous? which pleases God more? Which is more inspiring? Which is more useful to God? which is more beneficial to everyone? to pray to Christ once and ask to be forgiven and saved then continue your life as if no other choice can effect that salvation, or, to live every day until your last breath, repenting and striving to please him and follow his every commandment and instruction. which do you believe is a healthier or more beneficial doctrine to pass off to other people? which one of these doctrines will inspire someone to better understand God, to grow stronger and lead a more righteous life? What is more useful to God? What do you think God wants? for you to just keep doing whatever you want because for a moment you had faith? how about.. which is more Biblical? I'm going to have to agree with Joe.. he has the passages there to back it up. and also because its something i've always just known as i've moved to and from God throughout my life. I believed as a child.. but i eventually denied him.. but then i believed again.. but then i denied him again... but then i believed again.. and even during those times where i believed.. i didn't keep his commandments... you think that doesnt matter to God? you think God saves flakes the same as those who've never strayed? or are the flakes no different than unbelievers? what about heretics? what if Anton Lavey or Adolf Hitler prayed to Christ as children but renounced him later in life and never prayed again? do you honestly think they're still going to receive eternal life in Heaven? Praying to Christ once to save you does not give you a license to sin. it does not omit you from having to continually believe and repent until your last breath. this is not about our works.. it's about our faith being genuine or not. and enough so to keep his commandments. *John 2:4 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him* *Revelation **3:16** So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.* *Matthew **7:21**-26 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand*

+Yochanan 011 Thanks for your comments. May we go wherever the scriptural evidence leads us so that we may best glorify our God and King. You wrote: Of the scriptures you pointed out, one seemed to imply that there are people who will have their names blotted out. Well, when we consider that Jesus died for the whole world, and I am sure that there are no babies in hell, one can only assume that there comes a point in time where we either remain in the book of life (because we are already there), or opt out of the plan of salvation. I know this raises other question which I am certainly willing to discuss. Please keep in mind, I am no bible scholar. Goodfight’s Response: No doubt the scriptures are clear that all those whose names are not found written the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire: “And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:15). An insurmountable problem for those who hold to “Once saved, always saved,” is that the scriptures make it quite clear that Christians who fail to overcome in their faith, will be blotted out of the book of life. Jesus solemnly warned the church at Sardis in the Book of Revelation, that believers who had soiled their garments would be severely judged and that only the overcomers would not be blotted out of the book of life: “He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before my father, and before his angels.” (Rev. 3:5) Overcomers are described in the Book of Revelation as those who are not only saved by the blood of the Lamb, but those who endure in their faith until the end: "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death." (Revelation 12:11) The scriptures are clear that God has blotted apostates out of the book of life in the past and will again in the future: “The Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.” (Ex. 32:33) Your reasoning that maybe everyone, including non-believers, have been written in the book of life and that they are blotted out when they “opt out of the plan of salvation” is a popular explanation given by OSAS advocates in an effort to get around the scriptures that clearly teach that apostates are blotted out of the book of life. However, such reasoning is not scriptural, as the book of life is described as the book of the righteous and therefore does not contain the names of the wicked (Psalm 69:28). Jesus instructed His disciples to rejoice because their names were written in heaven (Luke 10:20), which is echoed later in Hebrews which speaks of the “church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven.” (Hebrews 12:23) Clearly then, the book of life speaks of ones redemption from spiritual death and contains the names of the members of the family of God. To be blotted out of the Book of Life can only mean that one is longer be written with the righteous: “May they be blotted out of the book of life and may they not be recorded with the righteous.” (Psalm 69:28). Thus it is patently false to claim that unbelievers are written in the book of life/righteous and later blotted out for not receiving Jesus as their Savior. There is not a shred of biblical evidence to support the position that everyone is written in the book of life and the evidence actually reveals, as we have seen, that only believers names have been entered into the Lord’s book. In fact, the scriptures reveal that unbelievers names have never been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world: "And all who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the lamb who has been slain.” (Rev. 13:8). OSAS proponents try to get around Revelation 13:8 by claiming that it is speaking of “the book of life OF THE LAMB” and claim that “the book of life of the Lamb” is somehow different than the “book of life.” They do this because they are aware that Revelation 13;8 reveals that non-believers names have never been written into the book of life of the Lamb and do not want to accept the fact that believers names can one day be blotted out of that book. So to extricate themselves from what the scriptures clearly teach on the issue in an effort to maintain the false doctrine of OSAS they create a false dichotomy between the book of life of the Lamb and the book of life, as though thy are different books; one with the names of the redeemed and the other with everyone’s names. This argument fails miserably though, because when we turn to the parallel verse to Revelation 13:8, we find that unbelievers names have not been written in the book of life of the Lamb OR in the BOOK of LIFE!: “The beast that you saw was and is not, and is about to come out of the abyss and to go to destruction and those who dwell on the earth will wonder, WHOSE NAME HAS NOT BEEN WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come." (Rev. 17:8) It seems quie clear that the book of life and the book of life of the Lamb are the same book and that those whose names are blotted from it are clearly those who were once redeemed but refused to continue in the faith as overcomers (Revelation 3:5). Those who hold to OSAS should humbly relinquish the false doctrine in light of the clear teaching of scripture. Yes, God has given us wonderful promises of eternal security in Christ, but none of those promises are unconditional. God’s Word does teach conditional eternal security, but never the unconditional eternal security. May God help us to receive what the word of God clearly teaches. May we recognize that Calvinistic doctrine will never make the warnings of God go away. God warns that our place in heaven can most certainly be taken away: “I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.” (Revelation 22:18-19) The truth is that only genuine believers are written in the book of life and that names have been blotted out in the past (Ex. 32:33; Psalm 69:28) and can be blotted out in the future (Rev. 3:5). May God deliver us from doctrines that would lead us to believe we can live like hell and not be blotted from the book of life. May we rejoice in Jesus’ promise that those who love Him and choose to overcome will never be blotted from the book of life: “He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before my father, and before his angels.” (Rev. 3:5) God bless you Yochanan as you seek to grow in the knowledge of the Lord!

+Zerubbable Stranger Hi Zerubabel, thanks for your kind response! You wrote: Pastor Joe, I love your work on many other projects, from your own to Christian Pinto's. Having said that, I think the term "once saved always saved" has been missed used and abused by false converts in order to justify their carnality. Goodfight’s Response, we agree that that there are OSAS proponents who use OSAS “in order to justify their carnality,” but disagree that only “false converts” are adversely affected by the doctrine. The scriptures warn that genuine believers not to be deceived into believing they will inherit the kingdom of God even if they are practicing unrepentant sin. When Paul gives his warning against sexual sin, etc., and declares that those practicing such will not inherit the kingdom of God in 1 Cor. 6:9-10, he is not warning false converts but “brethren” (6:8). In fact, he is warning brethren who have been “bought with a price” (6:20). After warning “brethren” not to be deceived by the satanic lie that claims that fornicators, homosexuals, the effeminate and adulterers will inherit the kingdom (6:9-10), Paul asks “Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be!” (Obviously he has genuine believers in mind “member of Christ”). He further states that he is warning those who have the Holy Spirit “do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit?” (6:15-20). The claim that the warnings about forfeiture of salvation are not really directed toward genuine believers are patently false. The claim that genuine believers cannot or will not choose to practice soul damning sins is equally false, because Paul is warning them against this very potential eventuality. In fact, in Paul’s next letter to the Corinthians, he states that he is afraid he will have to mourn (the Greek word is used commonly in connection with mourning someone’s death), because he fears that some will have still not repented of practicing sins: “I am afraid that when I come again my God may humiliate me before you, and I may mourn over many of those who have sinned in the past and not repented of the impurity, immorality and sensuality which they have practiced.” (2 Cor. 12:21) Thus we see the apostle Paul is warning genuine, Spirit filled believers, who are “members of Christ” that they stand the real possibility of choosing a life of habitual and unrepentant sin, resulting in the forfeiture of their salvation and failing to enter the kingdom. Sadly, the OSAS doctrine has led to God only knows how many millions to believe they are saved, even while in a state of apostasy and into eternal perdition. Later, in 1 Corinthians, the apostle Paul vividly illustrates how seriously he takes God’s warning against apostasy and states that he beats his body down, lest after preaching the gospel of salvation to others, he himself would be rejected (1 Cor. 9:27). Paul uses the Greek word adokimos, which we translate rejected, a word Paul used consistently of those who are hell bound, and the same word he uses to define those who are without Christ in 2 Corinthians 13:5. After stating that he earnestly seeks to avoid becoming adokimos, Paul then warns, “Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.” (1 Cor. 10:12) The late, great A. T. Robertson, considered to be the greatest of American Greek scholars, underscored the fact that even the great apostle Paul was not smug about his salvation. Robertson stated in his Word Pictures in the Greek that Paul’s concern that he to could be rejected if he failed to continue in the faith: “Most writers take Paul to refer to the possibility of his rejection in his personal salvation at the end of the race… It is a humbling thought for us all to see this wholesome fear instead of smug complacency in this greatest of all heralds of Christ." Cont' .....

+Zerubbable Stranger You wrote: Conversely, if God is the one who justifies, Rom.8:33b, then one who is truly saved would have no interest in living a carnal life. Goodfight’s Response: Yes, the book of Romans clearly teaches that God justifies us by His grace through faith, but we dare not try to explain away the reality that justification is conditional upon faith. Paul argues throughout Romans that the reason so many of the Jews stumbled over Jesus, the stumbling stone, is because they refused to meet the condition of faith and sought salvation by works: “What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.” (Romans 9:31-33) Paul’s thesis in Romans is that is that our justification or righteous standing before God is conditioned upon faith from beginning to end and that the just shall live by faith: “For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed--a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." (Romans 1:17) Since faith, and not works, is the condition for salvation, Paul clearly warns that those believers who stand justified before God by faith must “continue in the faith” or be “CUT OFF”: “But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, BUT YOU STAND BY YOUR FAITH. Do not be conceited, BUT FEAR; for IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, IF YOU CONTINUE in His kindness; OTHERWISE YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF” (Romans11:18-22). Again, we dare not try to explain the clear teaching of scripture away because it does not harmonize with our theology, rather we must always make our theology harmonize with the scripture. May God help us to be true to His word! This is not a warning to unbelievers as we don’t tell the unregenerate to continue in the faith, they are faithless and they certainly don’t “stand by faith” as Paul describes the Roman believers he warns. Also, Hebrews warns that the “Just shall live by faith” and further warns that IF the JUSTIFIED one draws back, He will receive perdition not salvation (Hebrews 10:38-39). You Wrote: Also Jesus tells us that all the Father gives Him, He will never cast out, John 6:37. Was Jesus lying? Of course Jesus wasn’t lying and of course we concur with John 6:37 that those who are coming (present tense) to Him are not cast away. The Greek word translated “comes” that Jesus employs is in the present tense, and speaks of those who are literally CONTINUING to come to Him. The promise is for those who are continuing t come to Him, not for one who commits apostasy and refuses to repent. There are ZERO promises of eternal security to apostates. Jesus’ promise in John 6:37 does not apply to apostates but the following warning by Jesus most certainly does: “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If ANYONE does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, AND CAST THEM INTO THE FIRE AND THEY ARE BURNED.” (John 15:6). Let us turn your question around now: When Jesus warned His elect apostles that they must abide in Him and that if they failed to do so, they would be cast into the fire and burned, was He lying? Of coarse not! We choose to believe both Jesus’ promises and His warnings. He promises that those who are continually coming to Him will never be cast away, but that those having once upon time having come to him and having been made clean through His Word (15:2-3), and later fail to abide in Him as branches abide in the vine; they will be gathered and burned (15:6). We cannot accept Jesus’ promises when they suit is and then turn around and reject or explain away His warnings, we must believe both! Cont' .....

+Zerubbable Stranger Cont' .... You wrote: Is the God who created the universe, He knows every atom in the universe, He's not strong enough to make sure His elect will persevere? Goodfight’s Response: We could ask you a similar question “Is the God who created the universe, He knows every atom in the universe, He's not strong enough to make sure that everyone will come to Christ and be saved?” You would be forced to answer in the affirmative if you are talking unilaterally about sheer power, but you cannot say yes if you are considering that God grants to man free moral agency and wills that the lost respond to His grace on his terms, which means freely and not by irresistible coercion. Jesus told the Jewish leaders who rejected Him that He was speaking to them so they would be saved and that they were unwilling to come to Him to have life: “I say these things so that you may be saved… and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. “ (John 5:34b, 39). No amount of Calvinistic sophistry can make this truth harmonize with reformed theology. Jesus will not save those who reject His purpose for themselves: “But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.” (Luke 7:30) Just as God will not force someone to receive grace, but calls us to come to Him by faith, He will not force anyone to continue in the faith either. Of course God has the power to force the elect into heaven against their will, but He has granted to them a measure of free moral agency and they are called every day to take up their crosses and follow Him (Luke 9:24-27). Those who are honest will admit that they know this is a choice and they can choose not to take up their crosses and follow Christ. Whether one admits this or not, the scriptures CLEARLY teach that we are NOT forced to love Him and continue in the faith and that there are those who leave their first love and forsake Christ: “But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place-unless you repent.” (Revelation 2:4-5) God is not a cosmic rapist who forces His love. Jesus wants a bride that chooses to love Him and those who make up the bride in the end are those who receive His grace and choose to love Him until the end: “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the CALLED and CHOSEN and FAITHFUL.” (Revelation 17:14) However, before the end, the Lord warns believers who comprise the bride of Christ His bride that they can fall prey to a different gospel, a different Jesus and receive a different Spirit: “For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin. But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully… For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.” (2 Cor. 11:2-4, 13-15) Cont' ...

+Zerubbable Stranger Cont' ... You wrote: “The Council of Dortrecht refuted Arminianism in 1619, I'll go with them.” We care little what a religious Council decided and we care rather what the whole counsel of God teaches. Remember, it was a religious council that crucified Christ. We are not here to support Calvinism or Arminianism, but to preach the whole counsel of God. Having said that, the whole counsel of God refutes the sham Council of Dort, which did not allow the Arminian delegates to even speak and expelled those who did not agree with Calvin’s deterministic teaching from the Netherlands. You can go with Dort; we will go with God and His Word! You wrote: The ultimate end of anything other than the presupposition of God' sovereignty leads to universalism. Goodfight’s Response: The early church fathers believed in the sovereignty of God, free moral agency, conditional election and refuted universalism and most evangelicals believe the same today. Calvinism is the child of Augustine, who is a “saint” in the corrupt papal system and whose theology, more than any others, undergirds the Roman Catholic Church today. Augustine departed from the teaching of the early church fathers in regard to the tension between sovereignty and human responsibility. Even though the Roman Catholic Church accepted so much of Augustine, the Council or Orange rejected his theological, fatalistic determinism in favor of the doctrine of the early church fathers and many feared he was importing a Gnostic version of predestination. We are glad to stand with the early church father’s who opposed the Gnostics in the first thee centuries of church history, who (the Gnostics) were known for twisting the teaching of election and predestination to deny free moral agency. Augustine’s held to Gnosticism for nine years prior to his “conversion,” and as a Manichean Gnostic. Seeberg, in his Early Church History, points out that the only people that held to what later became known as the Calvinistic view of predestination in early church history, were the heretical Gnostics. Augustine held the unbiblical views of unconditional predestination, which he sought to import into the corrupt Roman church, and was only successful in later centuries with the Thomas Aquinas and the Roman Catholic Thomists. Later, Augustine’s Trojan Horse of fatalism was successfully brought into the protestant church, via Calvin during the Reformation. Also, it should be noted that Universalism is heresy and if you study the history of Universalism, you would see that it has original supporters among Calvinists who believed the Calvinistic doctrine that God sovereignly saves whoever He wants to by simply regenerating them apart from initial faith and then applying that Reformed teaching to all people. Those who reject Calvinism cannot become Universalists unless they accept the Calvinistic doctrine of irresistible grace and apply it to the scripture that God’s will that all be saved (1 Tim. 2:4), which most Calvinists (like John Piper, John MacArthur, etc.) affirm on some level, and others reject (James White, RC Sproul, etc.) While the men just mentioned all rightfully reject Universalism, it is undeniable that the movement has had its share of both Calvinistic and Arminian adherents. Obviously, those of us who believe Jesus is the only way to salivation (John 14:6; 1 Tim. 2:5; Acts 4:12, etc) and also maintain that few enter the narrow gate(Matt. 7:13-14) and that believers can fall away and perish forever (Hebrews 10:26-31), are less inclined to become Universalists than Calvinists who rightfully believe that Jesus is the only way, but then subscribe to the Calvinistic idea of irresistible grace and later succumb to Rob Bell’s heresy that irresistible love wins everyone in the end! It is precisely because we do not believe God overrides the human will that biblically minded non-Calvinists could never become Universalists. So the whole idea that Calvinism has less universalistic tendencies is simply false and the idea that non-Calvinism leads necessarily to Universalism is a bogus canard. However, we gladly affirm that both non-Calvinists and Calvinists alike, who seek to stay close to the scripture, do not become Universalists. You wrote: Otherwise, keep up the good work exposing the evils of the world in all its forms. Reformed Theology is NOT one of them. Goodfights Response: Thanks for the encouragement, we regard those in the Reformed camp as our brethren, even though we have some serious differences in how we understand the character of God and the plan of salvation. We must speak the truth in love according to our consciences and hope for the highest for those with whom we disagree. We have no doubt that many of our Calvinistic brethren love the Lord and recognize that most of us are sincerely trying to better understand God’s Word and better glorify Him! Blessing in Christ brother!

Amen

A true born-again convert would never believe this or live this way. False conversion, which we see so much of today, leads many to believe this false teaching.

I agree with you on 'once saved always saved', and the pre-trib rapture. I believe, like you, that the church will be here, until Jesus comes back. (Only, I believe the great tribulation will not start until the 'abomination of desolation', at the half point mark of the seventieth week of Daniel.)

Yes, he is young, at heart.