This episode was recorded on 22nd April 2024. Podcast links below! If you're enjoying this content, why not let SVB know on his stream (www.twitch.tv/svb_ ) The best way to support the podcast is still www.patreon.com/svb Soundcloud: soundcloud.com/ow_svb/the-great-season-10-debate Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6sRWutKTc0gnWuguo62Vpa Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/svbs-group-up/id1490256265
As idea, you know how in ow lore and cinematics there isn't mirror versions of each hero, so what if they us it as lore accurate mechanic. Instead of hero bans you just remove option to mirror pick same heroes, so picking widow on sniper map effectively would ban her for enemy team, and by adding your idea to punishing for swapping (more respawn timer or debuff like your first ult after swap cost like 30% more) that looks interesting
Really in a messed up spot I got muted for saying “tf was that shot” when I got destroyed by a hacker and I can’t even post about it on forums without mods removing the post. Sucks man I just wanna callout this overly aggressive report system but I can’t so thank you for talking about this issue
mostly boring gameplay loop, having pressure of solo tanking, and yet still ultimately at the mercy of your DPS to frag and supports to keep you alive. Really miserable no wonder the role is dead
@@heiko2255 unironically though. there are still a lot of characters that feel weird in 5v5, and so far all the reworks were missing the mark (like pig pen seriously?) and the ball change did nothing essentially
without tank, overwatch wouldn't be overwatch. i can't believe we're at this point instead of just going back to 6 v 6. the sad thing is, 6 v 6 makes tanks more killable and easier to interact with too, similar to what avrl is suggesting. so im surprised he is on team 5 v 5
Tanks need weaknesses. The weaknesses for a lot of tanks in OW1 was just their giant hitboxes. Yes, they had more health, but if your aim was good you could duel a tank by yourself by outskilling them if they mistimed their abilities. Tanks like Sig and Orisa had TWO damage mitigation abilities as well as CC and good damage. Those were the problem tanks in 6v6.
@@Noobish_Camper55 you’re right but the normie population blames shield tanks. Immortality field should be an ultimate, suzu should not cleanse AND give invulnerability, LW grip should not bubble shield. The fixes are so easy but Blizzard wants bad players to get easy value so they overpower supports, bad players buy skins too. It’s a marketing decision.
before watch predictions: Avrl makes conceited faces and thinks hes smarter than everyone, Spilo comes up with the most complicated solutions imaginable to fixing heroes, and Flats says he doesnt really care anymore
yeah idk about always has unbiased takes his bias has led him to make some quirky suggestions at times but generally he does add a lot to the discussions
@@eagerinspirithe addresses the core of issues versus temporary band aid solutions which is why he's gained so much popularity. OW has enough content creators like flats who don't care and will play the game no matter what, so whatever ideas or suggestions they have basically come down to numbers adjustments.
@@georgealvarez1195 don't disagree, but he's still just a guy. his opinions and arguments are just as fallable to bias and holes as anyone else's. i like spilo, but unbiased is a bit much is all.
Tank role feels like that support group for vets who used to have meaning to their existence, but now society doesn't care about them and they're treated like their purpose never mattered
I played tank again for the first time in 2 seasons and I got flamed for all my lost matches even tho one of my damage players had the same stats (even deaths) for three minutes or just went double digit deaths, single digit elims. I was flamed sometimes even when our team won too. I was told "my teammates bad stats is my fault". So as tank I have 1.5x more responsibility to my role and budgeted power BUT ALSO some of my damage players don't have to play correctly while I aggro 2/3 guys and survive entire fights. I realize when I make neutral suggestions in the chat, that I put myself on the flaming block. Chat is off now. The players have spoken and its "fuck you" all the way down for trying to help. I've been polite. I tried being reasonable. All the "hardstuck" preachers got left in the lowest ranks.
@@leedunkin3338 Maybe, but perhaps also the opposite could be good -like making the sounds worse when shooting armor or a target using a damage reduction ability (like fortify). Imagine if the sound is changed to bullets hitting metal for example, so it actively sounds like you're doing less damage (which you are). I think this would be fairly easy to implement, and could potentially go a long way for subconscious nudging of a player's target priority.
39:56 I like this "idea of tank being a protector", that's what a lot of people liked about tank... yes making plays is fun too, but now suzu and life grip exist so
Let’s not make tank more ass by limiting their pick options. The problem is not that people do counter-swap, it’s that counterswapping works. 1 tank is going to get the short end of the stick with a swap penalty
Yeah its the fact one counterpick effectively removes your teams entire frontline without it feeling like you're actually getting a fair exchange by demanding/eating those resources. Feels too effortless to take you out of the game
Okay then fix counter swapping??? The easiest answer to this is make it more annoying to swap for tank. It's really easy to say oh just make counter swapping not viable that adds no value.
Suggesting that we remove tank completely and build an entirely different game from scratch: Great suggestion :) Suggesting that we simply revert to the format which served the community for 5 years of OW1: Nahhh bro that can't work
You act as if 6v6 didn't have problems. I am actually more aligned to bringing back 6v6 but when you speak about it with obvious bias and rose tinted glasses it does no one any favors.
@@ReivecSnobody is saying 6v6 is perfect but it's definitely more balanceable than 5v5. It's been like what 2 years and I that time we've had multiple orisa metas and hog metas a maugs meta. Most of the boring Stat tanks dominate in 5v5 and nobody likes playing against them.
@@ChimpRevolution 6v6 could just be 2 stat tanks. Both modes need balance and will have similar problems. Similar to what they said in this podcast I think if we went back to 2 tanks, they would have to be a lot less unique in how they play otherwise less people will want to play them (which has always been the case) and we just go right back to queue time issues (and still have balance issues).
@@ReivecS I think they tanks would actually have more playstyles in 6v6. Firstly for the stats tanks you could actually weaken them orisa fortify could only reduce maybe 35% since another tank is on the field mauga cardiac overdrive would only need to apply to him and not his team. Currently on tank in 5v5 you are forced to just hold front lines a lot of the time if you do leave your team they can get runover. For example I play a lot of doom while I do dive the back line a lit I have to balance between that and holding the Frontline so my supports aren't runover by a 700 hp orisa or dva. If there's a good widow this can be a problem because I need to dive her and get back quick enough before the dva trades for my backline. In 6v6 maybe a rein holds the Frontline as he was designed and I could go harass the backline 90% of the game. It opens up more options because I have others covering my weak spots
@@filipesimoes1343 Youre in for a fun one the next time he is on Group Up Lets just say he and a lot of other Pro Players/Streamers played 6v6 Custom Games and it was amazing, way more fun to watch too because the big combo moments and teamplay are just hype
@@nelluc7488literally all it takes is for player numbers to keep downtrending as we can see in the que times is already happening. They will try to revitalize the game with a overwatch 1 anniversary 6v6 mode as a limited time event. They can use it as a test
fair enough but its still dumb becuase at the end of the day its a form of expression.And lets be honest alot of people ar hardwired to say things like that if they swear
@thatmemeguy2520 yeah I'm very rarely actually directing it towards anyone but it's built into my natural speech to say shit like "oh shit my bad guys" or "awe man yeah mauga's fucked". Idk what weirdo would report me for this but the fact that they could is enough. My account has 8 years of data, skins, and memories I can't risk it
@@zairvix yea same im not risking my account the only time i will swear if its with voice chat with all friends.Tho whoever is reporting for voicing your expression is dumb and soft AF and they probably wont survive an OG mw2 lobby😂
@@shinyzigs I'm sure the point was that abilities like lifeweaver pull should require at least some amount of skill expression other than pressing a button. Its counter intuitive that an ability that doesn't do much (petal) requires more skill than the ability that does a lot (pull).
The way LW petal is mostly used is for self-peel where you just throw it under you (ie no aim needed) BUT my criticism of it too is that it's unintuitive to aim if you're throwing it under an ulting orisa or if your team gets shattered or grav'd and I'd want THAT exchange to be a bit more rewarding/intuitive
I am so excited for this absolutely POG lineup. I'm really curious to hear everyone's thoughts on Tank, and more importantly, constructive discussion on actionable things that can be done in the short term to improve the play experience for Tanks that aren't radical overhauls of some kind.
One thing I’ll say about tank specific matchups that spilo touched on. Reinhardt should be able to shatter mines. It’s not a common answer to ball but at mid to low ranks this is super useful. There are times where you can see as a tank that mines are gonna devastate your back line so shattering them prevents that. And also most times ball will piledrive with mines shattering him as well. It’s an annoyance that you can’t anymore but it’s not a huge deal
I also wonder if sound design will help. If tanks will feel weaker to hit, as in the hit sound feedback. Maybe it will feel weird, but make it sound like it really got tanked instead of it sounding lethal
yeah ow2 sound design was a big downgrade in general, there might be a few examples that are better, but I miss old ana gun/healing sound, and old genji shuriken sounds etc
No but I'm notsaying it should feel worse, Im saying it should sound like you're hitting something way stronger than you. It's just psychological, also it doesn't mean this is a replacement, it's maybe nice on top of other fixes
Ball is an amazingly fun tank, when he isn't getting hacked, hindered or slept. All they need to do is make hack not take him out of ball form, like it doesn't take Ram or Bastion out of their alternate forms. (For the peoplein the replies: if he is now OP, nerf his sustain. I don't want my main to be OP AF until people swap, I want to play my hero without being forced to swap. The way to fix ball and many other tanks is by nerfing or giving them counterplay to hard counters)
Lemme just edit your comment fam: any tank is fun to play when not getting hacked, hindered or slept. Let's not pretend only Ball suffers from it. The only reason hack takes him out of ball form is because it stops his momentum which is generally what you want from an "interrrupt" ability.
6v6 is the only real answer to fix tank. I know it adds issues to support and dps as well as queue times and other issues. But if we single out the issue that is “tank is miserable,” 6v6 is the only fix. You cannot fix the current issue that is 1 player vs 9 in the lobby. The enemy team is against you and your team as well. At least with 2 tanks, “the psychology” as Spilo puts it is divided by two people. This is not considering the unhealthy synergy of 2 tanks, which is a separate topic from the misery of tank.
Dps and support only had issues with double shield. If you properly nerf those characters no one has a problem with rein Zarya. Yes, dive tanks wreck supports but there are strong anti dive characters.
@@cl4709what's even to nerf? It perplexes me people talk about double shield when Orissa doesn't have one anymore. And the currenr double shield options won't be strong, ram shield doesn't last forever rein sig and ram together are easily counterable
your examples of a tank-less Overwatch are not accurate. Cod and Apex are very gun-driven instead of ability-driven like Overwatch. A tank-less overwatch would be like a game that I don't think exists right now.
@@Shzl47Idk I personally think the tanks are important overwatch is one of the most important games in terms of positioning and space control. I enjoy that tank can hold and take space and the nuance that comes with it
@@ChimpRevolution every role can take and hold space. Damage and Support can do it more often now that there's only 1 tank to contend with.... The main issue I see is that big, slow characters like Rein and Mauga awkwardly stick out when every other player is so much smaller.
@Shzl47 other characters use space but a tank ultimately dictates what is your space. If a pocketed soldier is on highground you are right he is holding that pace he has pocket and highground there is no way for a single character to challenge that space except a tank like a dva or a Winston. Tanks have the health pull and mitigation abilities to take that space without dying at best he kills 1 or 2 the mercy and soldier or he runs them out still denying the angle
TEN seasons of balancing and no solutions, the answer becomes more obvious with every failed patch, it is a format issue. It's completely maddening that we are floating REMOVING tanks from the game, yet bringing up 6v6 is outlandish or wishful thinking.
I just don't see this development team conceding that OW2 was a mistake on every possible level and reverting the game back to how it should be. For all the good this new team has done, they are still prideful and indignant towards any idea that isn't their own. I imagine being the laughing stock of the gaming community at large for the last half decade or so does something to your psyche. I also don't think 10 seasons is enough for them to throw in the towel just yet. OW1 lasted 4 years minimum (from launch day to the 2020 content drought) before the format change. Imo best we can hope for is a 6v6 Quick Play hacked event for them to test the waters. There's quite a few 5v5 believers that still need convincing.
Tank was not miserable the first 3 seasons. And we aren't talking about it bc it's been confirmed for well over a year that it ain't happening. Time for new ideas
@@kkona3868Queues would not double because the game would be playable again. 5v5 has the same queue times because they drove away half of the tank playerbase lol.
@@Dylekt tank has always been the least played role, and the game currently has more players and viewership than overwatch has had in the past 5 years.
People will bring up all the issues we had in 6v6. Specifically double shield with bunk, and queue times. Queue times are still shit, and double shield + bunk is a matter of balance.
@@shinyzigsTank still controls the game in a negative way, queue times are still incredibly slow for a good amount of players, and OW2 is all the more generic and boring to play for it, how did 5v5 improve or fix anything?
Ask yourself, where were the desperate cries for 5v5 across the entire lifetime of OW1? If it's clear that 5v5 is the answer, why was it never once asked for by the community in all of 1's life span? There are valid concerns over queue times and things like double shield, but these are matters of balance and making tank appealing to pick.
You could argue the fact that tank queues were instant and the other queues were long as hell is the cry. Where we all the people clawing to play tank in OW1? Revisionist history at its finest.
lmao yeah I'm actually so blown away that literally nobody remembers that literally nobody asked for 5v5 during ow1, and when 5v5 was announced people were like "wtf??" ALL THEY HAD TO DO WAS NERF SIG AND ORISA lmao I'm so done man
@@YazzPott people didn't want to play tank because they balanced the role terribly. not because the format was fundamentally broken from the ground up. the old balance team only worked on MMO's and had absolutely no idea what they were doing, and KNEW THIS. they didn't even want a PVP game, they wanted an MMO. this argument has been addressed literally a 100 times.
@@ranjnijan3446 That’s so dumb. There was thousands of people that used it like me and I used it so often for ranked. I wouldn’t be surprised if they removed it for sexual type of post that were made.
@@HappyHayHayYea it’s a load of bs. The reasoning doesn’t make sense, even if “no-one is using it” having the option there is better than no option but unfortunately Blizzard ain’t mirror our sentiment.
I love the "Tanks in real life" analogy: Real tanks are basically reinforced soldiers, with a tough exterior and seriously destructive fire power. But most importantly: They're mostly useless in modern warfare, often not even being used, given the existence of planes and remote-piloted drones, which offer way more mobility, and a lot less risk.
@@mryellow6918 I don't know about that one. I read some quotes from an American soldier fighting in the Ukraine-Russia war and he said they don't want any more tanks and to instead send more ammo, rockets, and explosives. Tanks are very expensive and not very maneuverable - easily countered with terrain.
One solution for fix the tank role would be add a CD reduction for some abilities or faster barrier regen for Rein, based on dmg taken. Part of why is Mauga or Orisa so popular on every rank is because they have short CDs and constantly do something, meanwhile Monkey is waiting 12sec for bubble, Rein is waiting for his shield, JQ is waiting 14 sec for her 150HP bonus and speed shout and Zarya is waiting 10sec for her one 200HP bubble.
@@nanner7085 definitely not true, and honestly considering the game is going downhill even after their supposed big breakthrough season i think they're probably considering the 6v6 announcement sooner rather than later. they are already definitely planning it, they just need more time. the current state of the game is obviously unfixable and they've acknowledged it. 6v6 was fixable, they just were incompetent. now we have a somewhat competent team in an unfixable format, and they clearly want to just get the 5v5 struggle over with.
6v6 directly enables your 2nd Point We already have less CC in OW2 (Sombra Rework, Mei Rework, Doom Rework, Brig no Bash Stun) if we now add a 2nd Tank back, it will feel way different than end of OW1, in a good way because theres no 5s Hack or Doom perma fisting you All i can say is, Samito and Guru made 6v6 Custom games with their own balance patch and basically everything was viable. Its just a matter of the devs going to 6v6 and taking some time to balance
The "speed lane" idea for Ball fundamentally doesn't work because going in directly from the front is just about the worst thing you can do on Ball. It all but ensures you'll be CC'ed to kingdome come for a one-way trip to the spawn room.
With respect to people hopping in vc and if it's the community's problem that people aren't sociable enough in-game, I think there's a big problem unspoken in how blizzard came out and said "yeah we're recording everything you say and probably dumping it into an ai model to decide if we want to ban you" because now far fewer people are going to hop in vc and chat shit for fear of being banned for saying literally anything. But for blizzard ofc, it's an invaluable tool to get rid of actually toxic elements and it does keep those things in line. So either you have a wild west of people shouting russian swears, or you have the cleaned up streamer-chat filled with exclusively professional orators.
If only we could get a 6v6 experimental/arcade mode to help put the 5v5/6v6 debate to rest. Unfortunately that would require the devs to swallow there pride, so it won't happen
Being forced into a flanking Rein play-style (since that's the only way he gets value in high ranks) instead of playing Rein like a shield tank is not an example of being able to get away with more. They are forced into playing an unorthodox way because that's the only way Rein gets value In high rank, people are not just choosing to play flank Rein because they want to. In low ranks you can still play Rein regularly and brawl because teams don't know how to coordinate around you so you can get away with more and you're not forced into a certain play-style to get value.
I'm high gold to low plat, and tank is fun as long as I have at least one other threatening teammate. The less threat my DPS is, the more members of the opposing team are willing to counter swap me. I will say most people at lower ranks are bad at the heroes they counter swap to, so just one, maybe two of them counter swapping isn't a problem if they're just bad at the counter. Once you get 3 or more countering you, it doesn't matter how bad they are. I've literally had people mirroring me in QP where every time I swapped they would pick my hardest counter. Long story short there is fun to be had, but I still experience enough garbage where I don't play OW as much as I would like.
Back when there were two tanks, the reason I played tank was because I liked making space and protecting my team. I didn’t care as much if the enemy focused me or used all their cooldowns because I had an another tank who could help me out.
1:25:00 - SVB, this is only an issue because Activision/Blizzard/Microsoft dont want to give the dev team funds. There's no issue with the amount of work it would cause. They could hire contractors to help work on the patch, they could bring in 100 people, they have MORE than enough money to do so. But they wont.
You know what could be done to encourage the community to be more cooperate, com more, have more fun? A guild system. Not LFG which wasn't great for a variety of reasons. An in-game group of people that you can build a group of good, fun people with without having to perform either trials or random happenstance to find.
Flats needs to articulate his points without the drama, hyperbole and constant swearing. He has so much brainrot from living on Twitch that he talks like he's 14
They all look back on 6v6 happily, the issue blizzard confirmed that it isn't uappening more than a year ago. Why would they sit hear and complain about one of the only things they know won't change for more than a year? They are trying to come up with realistic solutions.
The ana headshot is NOT the issue, there is a reason she is one of the most popular heroes and always has been, it has nothing to do with her not being able to headshot. The sound of hitting an enemy with her, is still very good feedback, you guys are way off on this. Sincerely an Ana main.... Also Ana is still a very strong support, if played correctly, but not as strong as she used to be. However, she requires a lot more skill to get value out of, compared to many other supports, which is the main issue about her. So nerf the other supports or make ana a bit stronger for those who can play her correctly.
You guys don't get it. I played OW for 6 years and I recently got a 2 week chat ban for saying ''you all suck'' in a quick play game. It's NOT about swearing or not, the only thing that matters is if somebody feels the need to report you, you now have no way to fight back because the entire system is automated front to back. The community has turned itself into a police state.
The IQ of the average ow players. The reason why mercy wasn't buffed is she doesn't need to be to sell anything. Mercy has the highest selling skins in the game. That's why she was released when they launched the 80$ mythic skin system, because they know people would just buy her skin for 80$
Been playing a lot of open queue, 2 tank, 2 supports and 1 dps and it's been so much better to be tank. They need to bring back 6v6, these guys have some sort of Stockholm syndrome with 5v5
True we need 6v6 back so dps have 15 min queues minimum and you get rolled cause the dumbasses in your team decided to pick two tanks with no synergy at all and supports are tank heal bots again, that solves a lot of things, remember double shield? Everybody loved that...
@@IceDeBlueberry wtf are u talking about? 6v6 tanks with no synergy would make you lose the game anyways, and you couldn't carry as much in other roles as you can rn, you guys forgot about the low lows of ow 1 and how tanks were a major part of every single one of them
i want 6v6 to come back aswell but this is dishonest.. tanking wasn't really fun near the end of overwatch with sigma and orisa being the meta overshining the other tanks and incentivizing a boring playstyle..
You are right that was oppressive and why I quite the game again bc my off tanks weren't meta....but devs needed to do balance with Brigitte & Baptiste which also made that double shield combo too op.
I still believe the 2-2-2 was the correct gameplay loop in the end. I guess dishonest in that the dev's needed to do some balance adjustments to shield tanks.
Two gripes with Venture IMHO. 1: When she drill dashes into a rein, even head on, she SHOULD NOT boop the rein. It should pin her, period. 2: 40% movement speed buff on the burrow is too much. SHES MOVING THROUGH SOLID MATTER. It shouldnt move as fast, but the duration be increased by 3 seconds to compensate..
I very much agree with the idea that many players get annoyed if you don't keep trying to push down main or mid lane every, single, time. few players want to take the time to make a flank to support a different angle of attack more so on hybrid or payload maps. I'd be curious to see what an additional respawn timer for the swap could do to counter swapping. Hell even add little animation of the character entering spawn and popping off a 'I have arrived' one liner to entertain the player who has to wait.
I feel like something that never gets talked about with wrecking ball is how he completely fucks his team's ult economy. He's a 775hp ult battery that (ideally?) relies mainly on health packs to survive. So he feeds a metric ton of ult charge to the enemy while effectively starving his own supports and putting them at a noticeable ult disadvantage. I find that super shitty
That's why you play supports with good damage when playing ball. Illari, zen, bap, shit even flank Moira. Because you know damn well that you're gonna be shooting way more than you're gonna be healing.
@@BackwardsCourage that's another topic. Point was that it only fucks ult economy if you play traditional ground tank healers instead of appropriate supports for ball comp. Whether people want or don't want to play those heroes is, frankly, irrelevant.
Just pick a mobile support like Kiriko, Moira or Lúcio and dive/flank with your Wrecking Ball. You can do anything you want with support, even 1v1 most of the DPS characters.
People don't quit the game because a particular character is meta, they quit when their character isn't fun anymore. Case in point Roadhog. I don't don't get how these "pro" players have such a hard time with most counterable tank. No movement, long downtime, and slowhealing. No cc defense. Hog needs an actual rework that makes him more fun, like the sombra, ball, and phara one. He did not need a trap.
They cranked up the need for flexing and full role versatility within tank 10 fold, so that the other 80% of players can one trick their favorite anime waifu. Then they further buffed tanks relative to other roles, so countering the tank is objectively the smartest play for both teams. Dog shit.
@@rare9242 I doubt the devs will be able to keep this up for long; They're likely holding back on sweeping changes for the DPS passive and upcoming reworks, but people are either already used to those things or the game isn't being changed radically enough to keep it interesting in 5v5. 😊
@@robbyg2490 no cos now the support will have the same issue of too much pressure on the role and if you get a dps support the game is ruined for 4 others. 2 ppl in each role won game of the year for a reason
Is it possible to balance tank in a way that makes them tankier the more enemies are shooting at them? Something like 5% damage resistance if you take damage from 2 enemies at once, and +5% for every additional enemy. (20% damage reduction if the whole team is shooting you) That way, focusing the tank is less effective, and as the tank you are REWARDED for being focused by simply being tankier. It would obviously require all tanks to be reworked, but being focused and targeted as a TANK should be what your team WANTS. Right?
This is not intuitive, and this wouldn't be apparent to new players. It's the same thing that Orisa shift does. People see golden, yet they still choose to shoot at her because big honse presence. Also, this would make tankbusters a necessary role, which I feel most tanks *wouldn't* want.
Up until the last 2 seasons que times in Diamond and Plat have fast across all role Tank 1 min, DPS 2-3 mins, Sup 2-3 mins. Now they are back to Dps being 5-7 mins and Sup being 4-5 mins. And people still dont think that making tank feel good to play is a problem. Well enjoy your que times increasing again.
1:07:18 suggestion, to hard or soft solve counter swapping. Make them suffer the respawn timer. Every time you swap, it’s as if you died. Sym would take a hit because out of spawn time but you lost a player for a quicker time to point
I love this podcast and have very much enjoyed 99% of the episodes and this is probably the only time I will critique it but it would be nice if more of these episodes had actual debates in them and not just basic conversations, its one of the things I appreciated about both Sam and Freedo being on the podcast was their attitude towards genuinely doubling down on stuff that is silly rather than just "Oh yeah this sucks I guess but hopefully the devs fix it, anyways...." I suppose the best part of this was pretty much the end where Flats didn't hold back in talking about nerfs to Orisa, Hog and Mauga which are 100% needed right now. Alternatively, I do think there are characters like Ana, Genji and Reaper who desperately need to be buffed, specially ana and genji shouldn't be as garbage as they are, Genji literally has 0 compensations for the current game state. How is his shuriken damage at 27 when he had 28 dps for majority of OW1 when people at 200HP and now we are at 250HP and he only has 27 DPS as well as that healing has gone up progressively is stupid to me but Regardless, this was a fun podcast from just a general convo about the game POV but having actual debates would also be nice. They should just suck it up and tighten up Reaper's spread, its not going to make him ultra broken and he doesn't need some grand rework to do more and finally Ana, sadly, needs a genuinely number increase on her healing and damage output to keep up with current gamestate.
Here's my swapping solution. 1) You may always swap FOR FREE to a hero that is on the enemy team (mirror matchups). 2) If you swap to something their team doesn't have, your ult charge gets set to -50%. If you are negative, you can't swap again until you become positive.
6v6 only failed because boring tanks were meta. Rein Zar is fun, Monkey Dva is fun. Tank players never complained about playing those characters. Orisa Sigma are boring. Hog should be a niche pick, high risk high reward
@@cl4709double shield sucked but that’s not a 6v6 issue. They could have reworked Orisa/sig. I mean how many hero’s have been reworked for 5v5? Mei, bastion, risa, hog, ball, sombra, doom and probably more. All we needed was hero reworking during double shield. The community complained about this and we weren’t listened too. I miss tank so much…I went from being a support/tank player in OW1 to a pure dps player in OW2. Dps is the only fun role left.
My Idea for Liveweaver is that dealing damage with Leftclick charges the heal passively so you have an instant heal to throw out when needed. Furthermore make the Heal not autoaim. The Heal shoots a trail of Healing petals that LW can use to selfheal on a reduced rate. Dash doesn't heal LW anymore in return. Let LW see where the petalplatform lands (Similar to Sym Teleport) Don't really have a "solution" to grip
Ball's hard to make work because you can have a fast character, or a fast, and tanky character, but if you have a fast, tanky _AND_ high DPS character, your game will be broken forever. I don't want to counterswap. Fuck that. I want to play the character I want to play. Shame my main fucking sucks, and the power creep from other tanks who can do _everything_ and more means I have to learn someone new, and...oh yeah. Now I'd just get shredded by a gold horse that tanks 30x harder. The reason the devs are so focused on the off-tanks idea of "do loads of damage" and "be independent ish" is because of how poisoned everyone's gotten from games like the FOTM FPS game where literally the only stat that matters is TTK being low. That's it. The OW team is just too focused on damage, and that's because they're looking at other FPS's instead of their own game. They don't have to zero in on damage. They need to have three philosophies that balance with each other.
Agree with Flats and I don't think it's a radical idea that each role leans into what their role is supposed to do. Tanks are supposed to absorb stuff for the team (not just damage, but cooldowns, CC etc too), DPS do high amounts of damage, and support heals. I feel like that gives each role an identity and that's what makes OW different and unique. Remember back when Sym was a support but she did no healing? They ended up moving her to damage because she fit the role better identity-wise. That's just a small example that at least we had an idea of what each role was, which I think is good.
If they punish counter swapping then everyone is just gonna walk out from spawn as the tanks with the least hard counters like orisa and sigma every time. Those types of heroes need to nerfed
The problem with Tanking: 5v5 leads to counterswapping. Unfixable The Problem with DPSing: One shots are annoying but this has pretty much been fixed. The problem with Supports: AOE heals ruined the game.
Remove all tanks! Make everyone tank! Just go to 6v6 why do we keep ignoring the solution. New devs make 6v6 perfect i guarantee or at least very close to perfect. More than 6v6 makes everything to chaotic and you dont matter. Less than 6v6 and you are way too important. Tank synergies were fun not oppressive except for two outliers that can be changed more if need be.
I really liked that OW1 creator patch where tanks were more tanky AFTER they buffed the damage slightly. At first you couldn't kill anything ever, but then they updated it and it was more tanky than in the normal game but you could still kill things, without being OP.
Biggest problem with trying to get people to communicate in video games now and especially in Overwatch is that you have to walk this ridiculous fine line of what you can and can’t say without giving someone the itch to report you or having someone get offended by something you said that it’s just better to not speak at all. Like I get that people who get banned a lot are probably genuinely really toxic but let’s not pretend that there aren’t also people in this community who report others just because they were told they needed to swap or were playing bad. You can’t communicate without triggering someone. There is definitely a lot of toxicity in this community but there is also a lot of hyper sensitive people in this community. It’s better to just stay quiet.
This. It's not a matter of sensitivity. it's just flat out so toxic that it's not worth engaging with it. Content creators also push this line of thinking as well. Unranked to GMs solely focus on themselves and their own gameplay, hell Flats and other CCs flame people in their chat.
Dude facts the one time I was in voice we were playing blizzard world I was on gengi and our tank was walking down main while the bastion turrets and died over and over. Our tank complained we need to follow him in. I wasn't even being rude I just said hey just walk in when the bastion transforms back up around corner wait for him to finish then we push. I have this guy start yelling at me saying I'm on a bastion counter and I should dash in front of him and deflect. I told him if I do that I'm literally gonna be in the middle of the open with no CDs and he's just going to stop shooting and wait. He then later flamed me because I had 0 deaths I can't make this up he said because I wasn't dying it means I wasn't playing with the team even though I was killing the backline like ana. I tried explaining to the dude my character is a flanker I shouldn't be frontlining on gengi. Needless to say I just never enter voice anymore unless I'm playing with friends
@@ChimpRevolutionYea whether you have good or bad ideas people just aren’t willing to even talk or strategize anymore they just get upset and feel “attacked”.
39:07 my suggestion for the psychological approach could be to heavily dampen the hit sound when you are shooting armor HP. That way it would desensitize just drilling a tank over half HP
Tank will never be fixed in 5v5. Nobody wants to play a role where all you do is soak abilities that prevent you from playing the game for 3-4 seconds. on a 12 second cooldown
@@rare9242 Thinking Tank in 6v6 is easy and no fun certainly is... a take But hey, if you prefer masochist simulator with a mix of playing Rock, Paper, Scissor, you do you
@@ornerycollop4670 5v5 is 10% as good as 6v6 at best And seeing how Pros like Guru and Samito have played a 6v6 Patch in Customs, which has all new heroes and reworks decently balanced, i can 100% say 6v6 is the right move
@@rare9242 The main Comment being "5v5 tank can never be fun" and you saying "I like it, because its hard" implies to me that you dont like 6v6 because its not hard, my bad if i read that wrong And yeah you can like different things, i can say I hate everything about 5v5 but i guess some DPS have more freedom
The implication that tank is the outlier in overwatch when there is a role with not one, not two, but three entire characters that can just passively generate several health bars worth of healing for teammates *per fight* with no mechanical check whatsoever is silly. There are closer analogues to what an overwatch tank does in shooters than there is anything resembling the average support hero.
23:58 I would like to see a close range damage option for Ball when he's in crab form. His peashooter guns don't always feel great in the midfight, and you almost have to rely on grappling and slamming for consistant damage; which the constant movements make it hard for some support players in the metal ranks to heal. His kit needs something to incentivize staying in crab form longer so you aren't depriving your team of a tank a lot of the time; since it seems like that's what blizzard's goal is. One idea I had was changing his melee to a boxing glove on a spring; that punches out of a latch in the front of Ball's mech. Give it a cooldown, make it do the same melee damage, and have it displace the target a set distance back; much like Brig's whipshot, but less airtime. It would be a good peeling tool for his team and it would play into Ball's role as a displacement tank, without simply adding sustain or damage buffs.
5v5 will never be balanced bc you cant balance the power distribution between 5 players and 3 roles evenly at the same time. Either the tank player has extra power in order to make the power between roles equal(yeatle argument) or the tank role is weaker than the other 2 in order to balance the power between players(Jake argument). Maybe they try yeatles strat and buff tanks to balance the role power but that will not feel good for the other 4 players. They may go in a circle of OP and low impact tanks but there is no value you can put on tank power to balance the equation of 5v5.
As a Tank main from Overwatch 1 into 2, the only problem Tanking face is the counter play. I don’t mean the swipe pick, but the CC or Damage they receive from what they are dealt. For example, why is Rein hard to play in OW 2. He can’t get close enough to deal damage. Buff shield is not the answer. Raising his damage isn’t the answer or even a CD decrease. Fix the problem. Once his shield is gone he can’t move out of the fight fast enough to regain his abilities. So my solution is fix the problem. Add this simple change, once Rein shield is broken he gain a short movement increase. This can be used to just finally close that gap he needs to smack the enemies and push his team advance. Or it can be used to quickly move to available cover. This change means if they swipe for you, you would still have the ability to decide how to change your play style for impact. Also if the enemy chose to push the rein that doesn’t have shield into his cover. He now has a chance to at least be in range to deal damage at the enemy expense. Small change but big (not overpowered) adjustment. Every tank could receive a change to what slows their play style down from CC or Damage mitigation. Then if swiping is picked doesn’t mean it will work if that player just advance his play style a little to be aware they could die if they misplay.
1:24:52 quick play hack idea, give OTP’s what they want. Find the person that only plays this character or vastly plays this character more then the rest of the player base and let them balance it. I feel like we are at a point except for new hero’s like ram, mauga, venture, illari, weaver. That the rest of the cast can be fine toned by those that love and play the character to high optimum. Take eskay and her discovering boop sends you backwards
I get the feeling the devs are totally seeing the tank:other_role players ratio spiralling downward, and theyre sustaining the aweful tanks while they search for another format shift. I fully agree with avrl in that the closer we can get the tank archetype to the other roles the more balanced well be able to make fun tank gameplay, however the hardest part of that equation is that tanks have wildly larger hitboxes. I expect some form of this to be the next sizable format change, once the devs are confident in that build. Edit: Theyre sustaining the aweful tanks as a lifeline to the tanks players, in tandem with the unnecessary dps passive nerf.
Bring it back, and remove shields, keeping the shield on Rein and he’s the only one with a shield in the game. That’s what will keep him relevant. He’s the Mercy of tanks.
I must be rare. I love my patient waiting down time. Problem comes with: what can promote more useful tactical communication within casual play, ranked or not?
TL;DR : Not a fan of the way OW2 bans people for comms. I'm going to have to disagree on the "old COD lobbies sucked" take as far as voice comms go. It took a literal second to mute someone being obnoxious if what they were saying was too much. I think freedom of speech is very important, regardless of whats being said. You can easily mute, leave, join lobbies with all that already turned off, etc. You were never forced to be exposed to it but its what made COD so fun. If someone said something racist or homophobic, 99% of the time they had 3-4 people jump on them saying something even more outlandish. Maybe its just my sense of humor, i dont know. I just think freedom to say whatever you want strengthens the community and bonds between players. I haven't, but i think i could get banned in OW from saying "you fucking suck." Instead i have to say "I believe your skill level on the role you selected was not up to par for this lobby." Who says that? Who talks like that? Nobody. People have to tiptoe around words in OW2 and it ruins the connection you would have otherwise had in other games. I dont get how you can be banned for swearing in a game where you are literally shooting other people. "Here you can kill people but don't swear. We cater to kids so bad words will get you banned. But also check out all our sexualized skins and be exposed to our next non-binary, LGBTQ+ charachters. Again we cater to kids and you can't swear." I have been banned in Overwatch one time, and its from screaming at a guy for trying to be a creep to this younger kid on our team. He was saying some extremely sexual things, and I reported him for voice comms. I got banned. Nothing happened to him. You get a pop up if they get banned. He didnt. He gets to go on saying sexual things to kids who are obviously under 12 years old, and I get banned for telling him hes acting like a pedophile, that hes a worthless creep who shouldnt be talking to kids, and that hes fucking pathetic and will never amount to anything in life. Thats my whole speel on comms. Sorry for the essay.
We must be from 2 different eras of COD lobbies. You couldn't silence or mute people and in the really early days you couldn't even ban people. It was a constant 10 minute long game of people yelling slurs and screaming at the top of their lungs in an attempt to make your ears bleed. Plus all the private messages that would get sent were UNHINGED. Funny but unhinged. The obvious solution to the chat issue is having humans overlook it because a computer can't detect nuance. Most of the people complaining about the chat are self reporting on their shitty behavior because do people get punished unnecessarily? Yeah absolutely, but is the solution to let people say whatever the hell they want with 0 penalties? No absolutely not. Just have humans overlook the suspension and ban appeals. The answer is BETTER moderation not less
Someone needs to ban AVRL from the kitchen if this is him cooking. Also for Flats: The biggest problem as a solo being forced to queue with groups has been simple: The groups ignore the solo players, or they target the solo player for abuse if things go wrong. Everyone has had the duo of a DPS with a pocket healer who never interact with the team. Everyone has had the three stack in their own Discord call who will just only work for their group and leave the solo players to hang. That's the issue, always has been.
What about giving Rein a passive where if his shield gets blown up(has to hit zero), it does some sort of JQ shout? So the rein feels value in just walking around with the shield up doing the tank job, but the opponents aren’t incentivized to just melt him. And the rein’s shield management is rewarded by getting to be in the enemy’s face if and when the shield breaks so now he’s in their face with a health/overhealth/maybe speed for him and his team?
Spilo's hero lock out idea is actually great. It psychology punishes someone if they have the control to run out of spawn, but literally want to counter swap so bad they have to stand around watching the game play out without them. I'm down for this change to happen immediately.
@@mryellow6918 In lower ranks it would make it where getting a single kill as a tank isn't immediately punished by someone countering you, and in high ranks they already play the least countered tank and are practically limited to one or two already. As stated in the video there has to be some downside to your entire strategy only being counter what I see (usually the enemy tank).
Taking player agency away always sucks. It's annoying enough when echo does it it to you and that very occasionally happens. drop the marketing gimmick and go back to 6v6
