The intensity of fantasy fans: are we really that much worse? 

To be clear! Not saying it’s bad to be a sports fan or pit the fandoms against each other. I got super into college sports when I was at university and it’s sooo fun. Just trying to compare the different attitudes surrounding the two activities ❤

I think the fact that the casuals treat SFF as if it isn't even a legit genre makes us a bit more high strung by nature. But yeah, when the conversation starts off with something like "oh your little space and fairy books" it's hard not to be combative in that discussion.

As someone who is a pretty big football and fantasy fan you are 100% right. In high school I played football and all my teammates made fun of me because I went to get the Harry Potter books or see the movies at midnight. Never really fit in with them outside of practice. But then the “nerds” or people who liked stuff like Harry Potter wouldn’t talk to me much because I was the “ dumb jock” that played football. When literally both of these groups are the same and looked down at each other. Even as an adult I do feel like I have people I only talk sports with and people I only talk nerdy/fantasy stuff with. And people act surprised when I like the other. When basically it’s the same thing about being a fan.

As a sports fan and fantasy fan it can be hard to fit into either community. Athletes have always treated like I'm too big of a nerd which has been a struggle and drove me away from playing sports. Fantasy Fans would see me in an Indianapolis Colts shirt and exclude me because I was a jock who wasn't really into whatever the fandom may have been at the time. Harry Potter release parties are a good example, I often felt and was treated like I wasn't a real fan. Who would stay up until midnight or 1 AM if they weren't at least fairly passionate about the series? It can be tough to find a place in the middle, at this point it feels like I lead two separate lives because it still seems like my passions can't meet in some middle ground. I still get a lot of satisfaction from sports and fantasy though, so I can't complain too much.

It’s difficult not to feel gatekeepy about marginalized groups you were/are a part of growing up (intentionally or unintentionally) as they become more mainstream. As a fantasy genre and theater fan and a member of the LGBT+ community, I know this all too well. But I try to remind myself that we took the stones thrown at us, and turned them into a path that paved the way for those who would come after us. ❤😊😊😊😊❤

I still have a hard time in public to discuss the things I like because I am afraid what others will think.

all fandoms are intense. we just notice the intensity of some fandoms more probably because of their size. the bigger the fandom the more intense and loud they get.

One thing both fandoms have in common is their ability to bring the absolute best and worst out of people. I am so happy for today's nerdy people that don't have to go through what we did back in the 90s and 00s and earlier. But the growing acceptance of things once frowned upon is still a bitter reminder that we were ridiculed and mocked for no reason.

Agree 100%. So sick of people saying we’re being toxic for being passionate about what we love and getting upset just because we don’t like when things are changed to appeal to a “wider audience.”

I actually had this conversation with a professor, and some classmates, when I was in college, back in 2008 or 2009, like right around when comic book movies were starting to become really popular and mainstream because The Dark Knight and Iron Man had been out, and had done really well at the box office. I don't remember what the conversation was about, but she was talking about sports and everybody was getting into the discussion, and I asked the question, "Why is it okay to wear a giant slice of cheese on your head, with a jersey, at a sporting event, but going to Comic-Con, wearing a Batman costume or a Starfleet uniform is weird and stupid?", legitimately curious because my parents aren't sports people, so my siblings and I grew up on Star Trek, Harry Potter (once that came out), Batman, and video games. The cool people in the class, and the prof I might add, just laughed at me and continued with the conversation. To me, it's frustrating that the things we grew up loving has become "cool" now, when I'm an adult because I was mocked and bullied because I liked all of those things. Especially in middle school and high school. My high school was a sports oriented school (small town high school), and so the more your interests diverged from that, the more you were ostracized for it. So coming out of that, and almost immediately going into an era where the things I love is suddenly cool is really hard for me to deal with sometimes. I like that people are getting into the stuff I like. I just don't like how some of them brag about being fans of something, but they were the ones that bullied me for liking that same thing only a decade earlier. Honestly, I do think that era of nerdy things being cool and popular is starting to come to its end, because of how little certain things are being talked about, when ten years ago those same things would've exploded into pop culture the way comic book movies did when The Avengers came out back in 2012. The thing is, books, comics, movies, and TV shows were what kept me entertained when I was a child. I'm physically disabled, and I spent alot of time in the hospital. So reading books and comics, and watching movies and TV kept me going through the weeks where I was in the hospital, and for the long hours I was at the hospital for appointments, tests and procedures. And because I got sick easily and was in the hospital so much, I couldn't do things like go over to a friend's house for a sleepover, or go out to the movies with them or do whatever activities they were doing. I was stuck at home. So what else could I do but read or play with my siblings or watch movies or TV shows with them.

My favourite chapter to read as a kid was “Riddles in the Dark” from The Hobbit (the Gollum chapter). I read it so many times that the pages are noticeably more yellow than the rest and have stains on them that I don’t even want to know where they came from 😂

I suppose one difference is that sports involve physical human beings literally bodily performing tasks-while Fantasy typically involves flocking around something that is largely imagination-based. I think things involving the mind have often been kept mostly to their own various niches and largely undervalued outside of them, in general. But maybe that's just me and my own hypothesis.

I love that you're wearing the Yu Yu Hakusho shirt! 🤓 Also people can feel the same way about anime as well but it's better now that we can all be open about our interest and share our passion so freely

It's really interesting to see this phenomenon in different age groups as well based on how they were raised/socialized. I am in my mid-20s and have always loved fantasy/nerdy things. When I was younger, it wasn't very cool but it was a lot more "accepted" than in the 80s/90s. There were definitely people who saw it as "nerdy" (derogatory) and people who saw it as "nerdy" (descriptive, neutral, positive, etc). It probably also helped that I was raised in an imaginative, creative, SFF-loving household. I get the not being popular aspect or wanting to hold special things close that "only" I liked growing up but I'm also lucky it didn't really impact me all that much from most people I encountered growing up. I have recently (in the past few years) become acquaintances with someone in their 40's who feels very very strongly against SFF/nerdy things. I don't think she embodies the feelings of everyone that age (or that only people raised in the 80s/90s feel this way) but I think her views are very telling of the time when she grew up when nerdy things were considered less acceptable. She is very proudly "not into nerdy stuff" and "knows nothing about it". She has expressed that some nerdy people (specifically "sci-fi" people lol whatever that means) make it their whole personality and are "too into it". I think she partially feels left out because she HAS to say something anytime someone brings up LOTR, GOT, HP, etc. but she seems proudly against liking "nerdy" things that much. We have a lot of discussions about this because I kind of think she's being too harsh for people liking what they like and living their own lives (who cares if you decorate your house with fandom things?). Since I have a lot less experience encountering people so strongly against nerdy things in this way, it's been very interesting. It also kind of explains to me why some people who have been nerdy since the 80's/90's feel so passionately about the fandoms they are in. I feel passionately too but it might come from different places or manifest in different ways based on my different experiences. I can see why people might "make fandoms their whole personality" if it's something they have been ridiculed for. It's almost a badge of honor! But also no one needs a reason for "making something their whole personality" other than they like it. Being loud about liking things is so fun and it makes me sad that some people are or were against that! Great video with lots to think about :)

The small return of the king paperback book was one of the few books i owned when i was a kid. I memorized and could draw the map from middle earth from referring to the map and appendices so much. Toatally relate to what your saying on reading when your sad. Good video.

God there's so much interesting stuff packed in this video to respond to I would actually argue that when there's something girls like it's more like teased than mocked. I think in the mainstream it's the opposite like when there's movie like Joker, Godfather, and Fight Club those movies and guys who like those movies are panned way more and not in a playful way, like in a cruel way. I think sports Fandom is worse overall but it's less gatekeepery. Sports fans have an almost religious zeal for their team that crosses over into delusion a lot. So much so that I'm a huge football fan and it's so uncommon to talk to people who will say "yeah we're good but we need help when it comes to our cornerbacks." I do get the toxic Fandom point though, like even with Prey people were deranged about it being a girl even though she didn't go toe to toe with predator like a heavyweight boxer, she outsmarted him so it makes sense in the story and people were still furious. There's a video, I think on wisecrack about fans being upset with changes and it was so interesting because it talks about how original books like the Lord of the Rings are almost like religious text to superfans so people coming in and making changes pisses people off like if someone tried to rewrite the Bible now and make Jesus a Trans black woman or something lol Sorry for the wall of text but this is a super interesting topic. I think you should dive more deeply into these topics. Just my opinion.

Thanks Bookborn, for being willing to start a conversation like this. I am sure it is not popular and there are strong feelings all the way around. Glad you have a forum for discussion. When we tune each other out we all lose.

As usual, I find myself in near complete agreement with your video essay. I just wish the fandom(s) weren't so toxic - social media, I think (original thought here, I know), has just absolutely fueled the race to the bottom in the fandom, and I have definitely curbed my participation in many aspects as a result. I want to talk about the good and interesting things I am a fan of - not get dragged down into endless, repetitive and caustic mobs crying about how a revered work has been utterly destroyed, corrupted, and ruined because user X doesn't like some casting or writing choice. It's just so... Sickening. Fortunately, there are still small refuges available, such as your channel and others like it, where reasoned and positive discussions tend to reign.

I am lifelong fantasy and D&D fan and was into “underground music” punk and other music genres which were very uncool. I say that cause I like to think of fandom and sports (not a big fan) from of sociological perspective. I really like Émile Durkheim’s concept of collective effervescence as a framework for thinking about social cohesion and the role of sports, music gatherings, religious ceremonies, even gaming sessions and conventions. Our “normal” everyday life is often a collection of mundane (profane) tasks and when we gather with others and share an experience together we feel a connection to something more (sacred). We as people yearn for connection and through collective communal engagement we find this connection. Sadly too this can lead to in group out group cohesion tensions. Certainly collective effervescence as a concept does not explain everything. But I always think about it when considering fandom, sports and the like, as it is helps explain the social glue that binds people coming together. For me. Audre Lorde also has some great insights on the bonds of people working on projects together from a feminist perspective.

Agree with all your points. I was always “the other” for loving fantasy. I also liked sports, but the latter did not excuse the former, and it obviously impacted how much I talked about how great fantasy (and yes, D&D!) was. I am glad that fantasy and D&D are now accepted in the mainstream. I teach, and I tell my students about my love, knowing that many of them too may enjoy these things rather than fearing how I would be judged. More importantly, my kids are growing up in an era when they can express themselves without the shame I grew up with.

Both groups can be very passionate about their fandoms. Spend money on costumes: Team jerseys, jackets and hats for sports fans; fabric, makeup, and props for SF&F fans. Both will spend large amounts of money to go to events: Sports games and tailgating; vs SF&F convetions. Both may watch many hours of video... I came to science fiction and fantasy fandom in the late 1970s. We called non-fans "mundanes", these days "muggles" has become popular as well. Before I got into fandom, I was into sports. I played junior league football for 6 years in my mid-teens and was good at it...team captain, halfback, top scorer one year...and some interest from professional football teams. My dad was a big sports fan. I also played baseball and hockey. So I know the sports mentality well. That gives me a fairly good prospective on both sports fans and SF&F fandom. As such, I would say one of the biggest differences between them is...the respect of intelligence over physical prowse. When I was playing football, no one in my team was interested in, for example, astronomy, or any science. Got to any SF Convention, and a very large percentage of the attendees are interested in astronomy. Another major one is how reading is seen. In SF&F fandom, recreational reading is expected, while admitting that you read for fun is enough to get you ostracized in the Jock world. I came to fandom because no one on any of my sports teams was into astronomy, or aviation, space exploration, not to mention *reading* science fiction and fantasy. SF&F fandom felt like coming home, while in sports I was tolerated since I was a very good athlete. Sports fans, conversely hold things in high esteem like getting drunk, getting drunk and attending sports events, becoming "buff", having muscles and watching TV (sports)...No reading allowed, or at most you could read the program guides or rosters of the team playing and maybe magazine articles about the teams/athletes/etc. Read a book?!?!? Maybe if it is a biography of some sports hero...and it should take you a month or two to read it. Intelligence gets called "smart-ass" and looked down upon. There is also a lot of violence that is acted out, either on the playing field, or at the bar. SF&F Fandom saved my life, when I quit playing sports, my dad kicked me out of the house because of that and I was homeless for a year an a half. A number of people in the SF community kindly let me sleep on their sofas or in their spare rooms...otherwise I would have been living on the street. So SF&F Fandom means a lot to me.

This is something I think about a lot as someone who always loved fantasy, anime/manga, and kpop. I'm happy that more people are getting into these things, but at the same time it reminds me of how alone I felt growing up or when people would tease me for my interests. Like, I don't want to feel gatekeepy about it, but I instinctively get protective and feel like others don't understand the struggles with liking those things and not fitting in. It's definitely something I need to work on because the last thing I need to be is someone who ostracizes just like the people teasing me would do.

I'm closer to Allen's age than yours, but growing up in a small town I had a fear of my love of reading fantasy and sci-fi books getting out due to the likely event of me being ostracized from various social circles I was part of. I had some leeway given that I was known as a "smart kid" and in the running for valedictorian, but that courtesy in high school social settings only went so far. Great video, thanks for always thinking of engaging topics.

As always, great video! I really appreciate your insight, and think you're spot on.

I'm a fantasy fan and a manga fan as well. And sometimes the manga community can get wild !

I LOVE how thorough and well researched you are!

This was such a good breakdown and explanation of the current culture of fantasy and bigger fandom cultures at large. I appreciate your tone and invitation to all your discussions as there isn't always a clear black and white. There is complexity and we can have both states of things, we can feel upset and happy at the same time of the uprise of fantasy. There can be growing pains and it is good to recognize and name what those are and what they may be. Appreciate the voice and perspective you are bringing forth, good up the great work!

Both sports fans and fantasy fans may do a lot of similar things, like dressing up, being way more passionate about something than others etc. but I have yet to hear,read or see in the news fantasy fans killing each other over being fans of different teams or the results of a game, etc., though that may be a small percentage of people

Great video! Really appreciate your thoughts and couldn’t agree more with everything you said. It’s funny how so many of us had similar experiences growing up with this content and as someone I my mid-thirties now I can remember always downplaying my “nerdier” tendencies in order to fit in. Looking back on it now it seems really exhausting! Also - I would always reread “The Other Minister” chapter in Half Blood Prince if I ever needed a pick-me-up. I loved the awkward interaction between Fudge and the Prime Minister and wish we got to see more of that in the books!

What a great topic!! 👍 ... Love these deep dives 😁... When I was a kid in the early 80s I loved D&D and read fantasy novels to escape my reality. The Hobbit, and LOTR were a huge eye opener for me. I also loved Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis, especially their Darksword Trilogy, and then later on I got very much into R. A. Salvatore. These stories fed my very large imagination and to be honest I'm still that same escapist reader today 🤣🤣🤣... I really enjoy your posts. Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts and views for the community!! 🤘❤

I think the discussion in the second half is interesting because it's exactly the problem that I've had with a lot of "geeky" communities. I understand the resentment that can build when something you were mocked and ridiculed for before becomes popular to like, but on the other hand while I have met plenty of fans who themselves are really welcoming, a lot of the communities overall to be quite insular and unwelcoming. I have had my interest in things be interrogated and dissected, and my opinions dismissed by groups of people who have defined specific (and often pretty arbitrary) criteria for what a "true fan" is. Frankly, sometimes I get the impression that some of these people being ridiculed for their tastes as kids have become those bullies themselves as adults because it gets them a sense of power they felt they didn't have before. I'm not remotely saying that the majority fantasy or gaming or comic fans are this way, but enough loud voices in these communities are. And not enough people in those communities put it on blast IMO, that the communities at large have allowed a reputation of rudeness and elitism to be fostered around them. For example, I have had a long time love of Dr Who. The show, the novels, the audio plays (not so much the comics, though), I have invested more hours than anyone should probably admit to. Yet I struggle to find places to talk about it online because I don't have "correct" opinions and don't engage with the franchise the same as others. And I've never had these sorts of issues with my other interests or hobbies.

I always love your video essays. It is ridiculous to normalize one fandom and ridicule another. For me enjoying fantasy did not come from a "it's cool now" standpoint. I simply was tired of the tropes in what I was reading and wanted to branch out. I avoided fantasy in my youth because my "nerdy" older brothers liked it. My brother was the band, the D&D player, and the know it all smart ass. I like to say that I grew up with Sheldon Cooper. It is shameful that back then my motivations were to not be my brother. Allen said, back then you had to not care what other people thought in order to like what you liked. I applaud that young kids can have that self-confidence to not care. I only got that confidence with age...and it comes with that shame. I was never mean or rude to my brothers when we were young (we both laughed at each other in a loving way). I just wanted to be different. I am grateful that I grew up, matured, and gained self confidence. My brothers love that I can talk to them about fantasy now and I do too.

Luffy from One Piece is a Thanksgiving Day Parade Balloon next week! Everyone will be able to purchase a Luffy Stuffy at Macys.

Great job as always, very thought provoking. Your insights into the reasons people enjoy fantasy really hit home with me. No need for details, let's just say Robert Jordan and WOT provided me with a world to live in that helped me get through some dark times. The comparison of sports fans and fantasy fans was spot on.

Dragonlance and Stephen King. Those books got me through junior high. I was obsessed with D&D in the late 80s. (I'm still obsessed.) I played second edition in the school cafeteria. Did I get picked on for it? Oh, you betcha.

Mixed feelings, as a child i grew up with LOTR and devoured Gemmel after that. There was a real stigma with being a fantasy fan at the time and i didn't discuss my love of fantasy. But- i have never been upset at the changes from source when adaptations came out. When Lotr came out at the cinema i took my son to see it and was excited to share that world with him and didn't mind the changes. Same with the GOT and WOT adaptations.

I've always read fantasy, but not always what was cool at the moment, I just picked things that I saw and interested me. Then, the thing was that when I said I was into fantasy but I had not read Harry Potter, for example, it was like: "Oh you are a nerd but you are not a real nerd, just pretending to be". So I rarely got to talk about what I liked growing up, reading for me was something mine, not something I shared. So, yes, I admit that it bugs me a bit that being a fantasy fan is cool now... It is as you said, not that I don't want to share it, it's just that I've got feelings attached to the genre...

you could talk about your grocery list and it would still be the most entertaining, insightful and thoughtful analysis of a piece of paper in a concise 20 min video like wow you are incredible ♡♡♡

As one of the more… ahem, mature members of SFF community, one of the things that has surprised me about newer fantasy readers is the crossover with sports fandoms. When I was younger, being both a sports fan and a fantasy nerd made me an outlier. When I was present in either community (pre and post internet), I felt like speaking about the other was, at best unwise and at worst forbidden. Since I published (a year now, unbelievably), on Twitter in particular, it’s very routine for the folks I know via SFF to talk about their sports teams in very fannish ways. Guess I consider it a positive step forward. Another thought-provoking deep dive, thanks. Love these! Keep ’em coming.

Wow, this resonated with me so much. As a fantasy, comics, and animation fan, I kind of feel like my fandoms get ridiculed a lot...or that people make judgments about my personality based on what I like...or how the public views my fandoms at any given time...Like you said, I've been into this stuff my whole life, before any of it was in the public eye...before the drama, or the scrutiny of mainstream audiences, before any of it was popular to talk about...and I miss those days. When this stuff went "mainstream" so did all of this "drama" in the public eye...I do not like the drama. Everything you said about the Fantasy community and the Sports community applies to the Disney Community as well...we all celebrate what we love in the same way, and yet certain hobbies/fandoms get more hate than others for some weird reason. Just like the fantasy fandom, the Disney Animation/Parks Fandom is looked down on and ridiculed by people outside of it. In fact, it's VERY UNPOPULAR to be a Disney Animation/Parks fan right now, even if you got into it before the "modern mainstream era", even if you speak out against the company and call them out for the corners they cut, simply because it's popular for mainstream audiences to hate on Disney right now. It didn't use to be that way. I miss the days where I could talk about the Disney Renaissance with my fellow animation nerds and people outside the fandom wouldn't automatically insult my intelligence. I just want to love the things that made me happy throughout my life and share that joy/inspiration with others. I just want to connect with other people through our common interests like we did in the "old days". I'm not interested in the drama that surrounds the topic now.

It';s depressing that in this age when we are supposed to accept everything fantasy fans still are treated like idiots.

I was that kid in the mid 70's who forced all his siblings to dress as Hobbits after reading LOTR - and play D&D. Now my nieces send me pics of themselves dressed as elves shooting bows in the the woods. I'm proud.

All my life I was treated as a nerd and an outsider because I don't like sports. I was never able to find my community of like minded people to share my loves and passions. So it's still very much something I enjoy as a solitary endeavor. Having these things become popular or cool or mainstream hasn't actually helped me connect to anyone because it's cooler with a different generation. It's only made me feel more isolated because I see how others bond and connect. While I just get a "oh you like this too? That's nice. Anyway...."

I'm late to the party but great video! I wonder if the introvert/extrovert thing is in play here, too, as far as athletics generally being an extroverted expression whereas reading is more of an introverted activity. As we know, we live (at least in the US) in a place where extroverts make the rules. Hence, sports cool, reading fantasy not cool, not being part of the crowd. Then again, I might just see everything through an introvert/extrovert lens lol 😉

You touched on a really interesting point. It is funny how weird people think it is to enjoy escaping life for a few hours by reading about magic and dragons and such, but it’s not weird to escape by watching a bunch of millionaires tackle each other over a ball for three hours. (Especially when they could all afford to go buy their own ball!)

Bookborn: I love your videos; please keep them up. I look to you and others to help me choose books. I loved the quote from wired magazine. I think it's a gift to be able to laugh at ourselves, and I am worthy of a good laugh or two. Personally, I tend to believe in evolutionary psychology, as I think we (humans) are highly evolved animals, with many unique traits. I suspect we can gain insight into human behavior by studying other species, especially social animals. Unlike other animals, I believe we (humans) are really good at hiding our deepest motivations from ourselves and others. Thanks again for all you do for the book reading world. Feel free to delete my post if you think it may insult some of your followers.

Great analysis in my opinion. I didn’t know you were into statistics

Agreed on every point! I wonder if it is similar to “party game fans versus heavy board game fans.” The party gamers would like to just “not think” after a day of hard work, but those that like heavy board games like to “think about better things” after work to wash away the day. Same thing with Sports versus Readers. Get lost is “cheering” versus “another world”

As one who has surfed the fringes of multiple "groups" for most of my 40+ years on the planet, this is really interesting. I have always been into fantasy... started playing DnD when I was 8 or 9... played competitive sports through college... active in band, choir, theater. I always felt a little like a chameleon by necessity. As culture and society changes, I have noticed more and more acceptance of the "fringe" groups into the mainstream. Always hard for those of us who suffered the slings and arrows of being in them to begin with... but for the future, this is a great thing! However, those that talk about the "sweaty masses of nerdness", they are still stuck in that past. I just hope we continue to evolve! (and I don't remember a whole lot of fantasy fans killing other fans over outcomes of games... see sports fanatics)

Very interesting points! My favorite response when people say nerdy stuff is cool now is to say it was always cool. For me, I remember being obsessed with video games as a kid, but I don’t really get to play games or watch movies or shows as a father of young children because I don’t want them to be exposed to the sex, violence, or modern day politics that are in everything being put out. I’ve always liked fantasy, but I didn’t start to love it like I do now until having kids. It’s a way to set a good example to my kids by being an avid reader and avoiding screen time, but it’s also a way I get to consume my more adult stories without exposing my kids to them. Best of both worlds :)

6:32 I think your assumptions about the reason why one has been "othered" and the other is mainstream is mostly accurate. There is one point I would like to add (as someone in the film industry that is also "othered"). Celebrity worship, which is inherently tied to reality. Sports celebrities just like actors, singers, etc gain mass appeal because they're putting their body - themselves - on the line for their job in a way that's broadly appealing. By very visibly putting *themselves* as the object of entertainment there's an element of "realism" that's absent from jobs where the product isn't a literal person and how they can perform. Behind the camera roles in film (even all the way up to directors and producers) don't have nearly the notoriety that roles in front of the camera have (even b-list actors are generally more recognized than most directors by the mainstream). Just like coaches are less likely to be recognized than athletes unless they've been with a team for many years (and even then, people who aren't fans of the team are very unlikely to recognize them in pop culture). This is doubled up multiple times when it comes to fantasy. 1) the writer may not have any visual marketing of themselves - distancing their personhood from mass media. 2) the writer is creating a thing rather than using themselves to be on the line for the object of entertainment (similar to a director). 3) There's rarely much visual element to book series (particularly characters - unless there's been an adaptation) further distancing it from reality. 4) Most "mainstream" fantasy fans tend to be much more connected to the fabricated characters in the books than they are to the writer. 5) Not having a human as the identity of a character means there's lots of variety when it comes to a representation of that character (as opposed to having a sports jersey for a player, or performance costume for dressing up like a pop star). 7) Even for mainstream fantasy (like Game of Thrones, or Lord of the Rings) there's still the element that makes it fantasy - which is that things can happen that are beyond reality. I could go on, but you get it. Having a real human being with human limitations while still being able to fight against those very real limitations will always be easier to understand than a fake person with potentially supernatural limitations fighting against potentially supernatural forces. And that ease of understanding - that "you get it simply because you're alive" is what makes things broadly appealing. I think this was a big part of why game of thrones took off - there's a hint of supernatural fantasy in the first season, but it doesn't really start to dive into dragons and magic until late in the first season - and that never becomes the centerpiece of the story. And by time it is more fantasy heavy, viewers were extremely connected to the characters for the loss they had suffered. Lord of the Rings was similar in that even though there were fantasy creatures, they all looked mostly human aside from the bad guys for the first movie, and aside from a bit of targeted magic moments from Gandalf and Saruman, it could have easily been a slightly modified medieval world for the casual viewer. And even the One Ring was such an obvious analogy for drugs (or temptation in general) that it was pretty easy to understand the impact that it had. Even the MCU was similar. Iron man primarily focused on Tony Stark who viewers was told was a really good engineer - but his ability and his devices were all "earned." Captain America was primarily focused on his heart rather than his super human abilities. Thor literally took away his supernatural abilities and tossed him into our world until we got more connected to the character. Once we got more connected to the MCU as a whole we were introduced to cultures that were more distanced from reality, where Black Panther then had to remove his abilities to have a very real and meaningful fight - then faced someone with very real-world fanatacism. Black Widow felt pretty real - until her standalone movie where everything was fantastical and started to ignore obvious human limitations. I think that's also why captain marvel wasn't accepted as widely - it relied too heavily on fantasy limitations that were ignored when it was convenient. That's also likely why Hulk never got a real MCU movie (and why the predecessors were largely ignored) because the only limitation was emotional control of a fictitious character - which is so easy to modify with "soft" rules. And everyone responds to stimuli and anger/fear/despair differently. TL:DR Mainstream relies exclusively on reality - specifically the reality of human performers. The closer to interesting /extraordinary reality pushing real human limitations in a performative way, the more people will be drawn to it. This is largely because of the an easy access point of human empathy. The further something deviates from reality, and the less possible celebrity worship is, the more niche the entertainment is going to be because it requires a specific mindset, or knowledge set to be able to access.

I bet LotR fans at an Eagles game would still throw snowballs at Frodo. Had a friend at college that just went by Bat as he always wore Batman T'-shirts. 6 months later I found out his first name was also Eric. I remember watching Allen's vid and completely agreeing with him. I don't think playing (A) D&D before it was cool makes us trailblazers. It is like hearing a cover of a song you love and just going 'un, no'. Or realizing the younger generations only know your favorite bands due to car commercials.

I’m both a huge sports and fantasy fan, which was rare when I was a kid. You’re 100% right about the attitudes. Before Harry Potter, kids who were huge fantasy fans were made fun of in a way that huge sports fan never were. I also completely understand the feeling of slight frustration now that fantasy is popular, when before it took some mental fortitude to publicly be a fantasy fan. In keeping with the sports comparison, it’s how diehards feel about bandwagon fans who start following when the team has a deep playoff run. You’re happy that they’re cheering for your team but a small part of you is like “where were you when we were 4-12?” Overall you’re happy they’re in the fandom now, but you kind of want some recognition of the pain you went through before it became popular.

I lived in Argentina and I was there during the world cup in 2014 when they played against Germany! Let me tell you... fantasy fans are in no way even close to the level of insanity of soccer fans haha.

Are you wearing a Yu Yu Hakusho shirt!? BASED!! But I do have so many thoughts on this. Thankfully I was never bullied for being into anime and fantasy cause I always had classmates who were into it(although the number was smallest in middle school but maybe it was cause I had moved to Massachusetts and most kids in my school hadn’t been exposed much to it). But as I moved on to high school I saw how big of a deal sports was to people. Deep down I resented sports fans for a while but it melted away upon realizing that sports fans are just as passionate about sports as I am about fantasy, anime and metal music. Just comes down to what you’re into. I honestly don’t know how I feel about anime becoming more mainstream. I do genuinely feel happy that more people are appreciating this art form, but on the other hand I don’t want normies coming in and telling me how they think anime should be or that I take it too seriously. Great video as always Hillary. And again, love your Yu Yu Hakusho shirt.

You should watch a video on Ursula K le guin she talks about the commonplace of fantasy and what fantasy is becoming. Her criticism are that fantasy or sci fi should be tested and critical as say regular literature. That we need to have good critics of sci fi or fantasy for it to become a legit and critical genre fiction.

I'll just say that I've never seen fantasy fans riot, start fires and flip cars over...

Too often people tend to consider their own interests as worthy, or even moral. They see themselves as the right and work backwards from there. I won't trauma dump, but it's always been hard for me to plant my flag anywhere.

This was Harry Potter for me as a kid. Anytime I wanted to escape to a place that had magic (and was at a school cause #lovesschoolnerd) it was always a safe space. I would honestly just return to and reread Prisoner of Azkaban. I read it about 30 times in the 7th grade.

I have found it to be even more isolating as 'nerd' culture has entered the mainstream. I'm 30 years old, so I don't get made fun of anymore for the things I like, but I do throw in with a lot of people who like popular fantasy titles. It's like feeling alone in a room full of people just because Name of the Wind seemed more interesting to me than Harry Potter.

I was able to participate in the American gathering of the Thanksgiving to watch the Lions of Detroit eat turkey legs while visiting family-in-laws in Minnesota. They enjoyed the touching down of the football at the end for the win. It was most exciting. Yet, they were disinterested to hear my theories that Indiana Jones is basically unkillable and that Gandalf wanted to use the eagles the entire time. I was told the football is basically a way of life while in season. Most interesting.

The only women I know who love fantasy are on booktube! My librarian told me she had to take over the fantasy/ sci-fi section as no one wanted it . She admitted to me she had no knowledge about the genre either! She orders everything on my tbr so she can use up the allocated budget. I guess I am lucky fantasy is still unpopular.😜

I think that Kehe article shows that nerds are still stigmatized a bit though things have gotten much better since I was in High School. There is a very sportsy culture where I work so I will usually feel embarrased if I bring up that I am into books and fantasy, as it is something that is still poked fun at in those kinds of circles. So I usually just end up keeping it to myself. In that way I think there still some way to go in how nerds are perceived.

Honestly, I think it's more just mainstream vs outsider cultures. Similar behaviors. However, since one is a niche, it gets put down by people who can't accept people having their kind of passion for something they consider dumb and nerdy

Random comment: Hiei was the guy I liked the most on that show too. An interesting side is that I used to dye my hair loud unnatural colors. I did this because it reminded me of Anime and how the colors in Anime are so vibrant. Now, everyone is doing it and somehow it's a political statement. I no longer dye my hair because the people who used to comment to me on it were Anime fans, and they would talk Anime with me. Now if I do it, its politics...

As a sports and fantasy fan it is strange that I'm still embarrassed at times to say I'm a fantasy fan. But i think it's more an insecurity about not reading high brow literature. My mother was a college English teacher so I was forced to read classic literature and a lot of its awful. I am embarrassed that I don't like it. Some classic literature is very fantasyesque though.

I think both of these fandoms are partly taking the place of religion. At least nowadays we rarely execute people over differences in doctrine. Back in the 16th-18th centuries that seemed to be routine. Imagine if everyone who mistakenly thought the 10th doctor is better than 9 or 12 were executed for their sin? But more seriously, sports fandom and Speculative Fiction fandom can both provide a form of community that less and less people find in religious communities nowadays. Though I suspect that culturally, there is much more overlap between religion (specifically Christian) nerds/fanatics and sports nerds/fanatics, especially in the Bible Belt

I had a really bad time 4th-6th grade (which would be 10-13 years old) and I feel like books helped me survive this period. I don't have my favourite chapters, but I would re-read Harry Potter and Princess Diaries series constantly. I propably read them like 8-10 times (except for the last Harry Potter book, because this period in my life was thankfully over, but I still read it around 5 times, for love of the series). So yes, I understand the attachment!

Honestly, at least from my experience, fantasy fans are one of more chiller fandoms. If you want a really rabid fandom, look to pro wrestling fans. That's a fandom that, at least online, is constantly creating a negative experience for everyone involved.

Here's the thing. "Fantasy". It's in the title. That is why it is different, and it is all that matters to most people.There is no need to list similarities between fans of different things, they're all human and will behave like humans. It being made up is enough for people to dismiss it, which doesn't come up as a point in your video. I would also say it is completely valid to be embarrassed by the actions of others if they associate in the same groups. People act like idiots all the time, pretending not to see it doesn't stop it from being the case. Your politics of "everyone must get along at all costs" comes across very strongly here. The Harry Potter story also made my heart break. No wonder we're all so messed up when literal core memories are formed by that dumpster fire for so many. Also the hipster defense for "fantasy being cool" now is just so... ironic. This is why when I hear "fantasy is cool now", I ask, "huh, what fantasy?" and usually the answer is anime which is hit or miss for me, or just some other poor attempt at super-heroes with a twist. And let's be real, no one actually thinks that stuff is cool it's just a bunch of D&D 5e players and marvel/dc fans patting themselves on the back for being such good consumers, and jumping for joy at the though that they'll be getting 6 more things in the upcoming product lines for their favourite thing before the year is out.

Eye of the World is my definitive later adulthood recommendation discovery! Sees thumbnail: "We do not have the strength to fight both Isengard AND Mordor!" 🎉 DnD/RPG fans walk in.... Fantasy Football gamers walk in...Science Fantasy fans in...Courtside celebrity fans walk in/drake walks in...comic book fans walk in...fantasy film/cinematic universes fans walk in...a riot ensues. Theres not enough freak flag flying in the world and fantasy fans know it best! That's ny gauntlet thrown. Theres one controversial short you haven't yet made: "the prequels are better watched BEFORE the OG trilogy" And I have seen this horrific take by whippersnappers because i suspect social media cred and insta/invented imposed ship videos are cool! I'm mocking "on principle" but yeah...

As a sports fan and a fan of fantasy fiction, I can definitively say sports fans are way more unhinged.

In my experience, the big difference is that sports fans don't get bullied for being sports fans (unless they support the wrong team), whereas SF/F fans do. These days, even the producers of SF/F movies and TV shows think it's fine to call their fans ugly names, but you'd never hear owners of sports teams attacking their fans the same way. P.S. SF/F is only considered cool if normies get into it. And even then, they only think other normies are cool if they're into it. They still think nerds are not cool

I know mainstream media will ignore emotionally well-adjusted fantasy/SF fans to cover ones with some sort of childhood trauma. I've seen examples of this treatment from my local newspaper at conventions.

Where I am, being too passionate and expressive about something is always seen as abnoxious. Fiction fanbases is seen the worst because others think, 'it's not real'

I mean, sports fans have been known to riot compared to fantasy fans who mostly just complain online I wouldn’t call fantasy fans “rabid” or “wild”

How much of this, especially in the US where I grew up, is a projection from our high school selves onto the adult version? Where I went to HS, fantasy geeks did not hang out with jocks, period. I say this as a guy. I can't speak for the female experience.

Not sure nerdy stuff is that cool. I just discussed my love for A song of ice and fire with a colleague and he looked at me like I came from the moon... "the books? Seriously" well yes I'm a blonde girly nerd, deal with it.

Growing up, this was my experience. "You spend too much time and effort on books/games" by people who spend hours upon hours almost daily watching someone else play a game. Yea. *I'm* the one with an "addiction".

I do not think that sports fans and fantasy fans behave similarly. Yes, sports fans would wear their favourite team's jersey. But they would never use cosmetics, wigs, prosthetics, etc. in order to look exactly like the quarterback. It's no wonder that dressing up as Gandalf is considered ridiculous. Also, I've never heard of sports fans starting shitstorms of the size that fantasy fans seem to be capable of.

100 years ago Sports fans were probably treated the same way Fantasy nerds are treated today 😅

Good morning 🥱☕️

No, we just like something. We don;t dress up like freaks. Or force people to do anything.

The name of the video you pulled the clip from would be appreciated, not obvious on the guy's channel which one it is.

My problem with your opening monologue and Ellis analysis is... who decides? Women DOMINATE publishing AND consumer spending. The things women enjoy are given HUGE weight to the point that advertising is EXPLICITLY targeted to cater to women most of the time. It honestly seems that those theories are all about focusing on men's opinions? As if men are a dominant force in society? And honestly, I have a problem with that particular theory even when it pertains to actual patriarchies. If I were to join the women's institute (which I'm not still allowed to do, last I checked) or to join a feminine centred industry like fashion or makeup... it would QUICKLY become apparent that masculine trends and preferences were undervalued. Because dur. The assertion ALSO wilfully ignores how often sport is derided as useless. Especially for fans. An absurd perspective, given the popularity. But that is because it tends to be more affluent observers stating it. I just WISH people like Ellis wouldn't be QUITE so myopic. Of COURSE if you narrow your focus to "traditionally male" hobbies then women's preferences are going to be less popular. It's literally just observing that grass tends to be green. Boys like boy things... who knew? (note: everybody knows this despite efforts to make everything neutral. There's nothing actually wrong with that fact men and women are different, or that some people don't conform to general trends. The existence of the latter do not invalidate the former. And vice versa. There are PLENTY of men who love fashion and makeup) ... rant over. It's just that stuff ALWAYS bothers me bc it asserts things not in evidence as if they are self evident... when even a cursory examination of the context demonstrates how limited those perspectives are. It's still a great way to make your comparison btw. Controlling as many factors as possible is good. But if you want to see what female fandoms are like in comparison look to the boyband phenomena. Or Swifties. I don't think nerds even come close to how... fanatic... THEY can get ;) The Wired article also demonstrated one thing to me. That Sanderson may ACTUALLY be worthy of everybody's adoration. When he is treated like that after taking a stranger into his confidence... he responds with still more kindness.

P.S. When normies get into SF/F, they still don't think nerds are cool and will happily kick the nerds out of the fandom as they take over.

The Phillies made the vid! GO PHILS!

I think only Tolkien, WoT, and some manga fans are from my experience.

You can’t convince me that Wired article wasn’t written by Terry Goodkind.

She's so fine. Wild

the most aggressive fans ive ever seen were Steeler fans in PA. oh boy were they something else. but no hate.

Sports fans are more willing to be insane in public. I don’t see fantasy fans fighting in public over twilight

I don't know about you guys but personally I'm even worse

Brasil maior do mundo não tem jeito 🇧🇷🇧🇷🙅🙅🙅

equating fandom to nationalism in the thumbnail, brave

Fantasy fans are second most toxic, only to videogame fans haha

Didn't you grow up on the wave of popularity that was harry potter? Kind of confusing how you can be mocked for reading fantasy when half the kids have read that. I grew up in the early 90's and nobody really got picked on for nerdy hobbies, we all had nintendo's, grew up on star wars, he-man/she-ra, spiderman and his amazing friends, etc... There were nerdy kids but it was their behaviour not their hobbies that made them nerdy and often those nerdy kids were still quite popular, they just really had a hardcore interest in doing well in school. As for people coming into my hobbies I'm all for it until they start changing it. To be hyperbolic it's like showing some monet or van gogh work to someone and they claim to love it but when you turn your back they're painting over it and when I complain and encourage them to make their own paintings instead of ruining masterpieces they call me names. Not a big fan of that.

Your boyfriend broke up wqith you?

Sports fans are usually very aggressive and curse a lot during big games like soccer. There are not so many fans who appreciates the art of sportsmanship. They usually drink and shout at each other and even beat each other after the game. As you said sport encourages tribal behavior and IMHO this type of behavior goes along with violence. The violence is not a solution in a fantasy, it is more like a tool. The end goal in fantasy is to build a better world, the end goal in sports is to beat your opponent to the ground and to be in the 1st place, to be a winner.

Please don't call me a nerd 😢