The Key Difference Between Heaven and Utopia | Jordan Peterson & Jonathan Pageau 

This is a life changing moment. The truth is still being proclaimed in this messed up world. It can still be found. God has not abandoned us.

There are many angles in which you can fall, but only one angle in which you can stand straight. - G.K. Chesterton

"Those who promise you utopia, will deliver you genocide" -In Case I Die Before You're Born by: Marcos Carvalho

"Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you" I guess.

"I don't understand..." and "I'm going to have to think about this..." The words of a humble man. What other public intellectual speaks like this?

This is one of the most impact-full clips from Pageau intereviews. I needed this for a long time.

*"21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."* *Gospel of St. Matthew: 6* KJV

Heaven is where God reigns Creating a heaven on earth where God is dethroned is by definition not heaven. As a consequence man cannot bring heaven on earth, man can only allow the reign of heaven in his heart, submitting to God’s will

“Creating heaven on earth” is a dangerous mindset

Some years have passed since JBP and Jonathans first talks about Pepe. When I see Jordan now, I feel his struggle. It reminds me of myself. He's close, he can grab it, but he's afraid, his intellect rationalizing and making it harder it seems. Thanks Jonathan for having patience

I’ve studied the Bible and Christ for years, this video is so good, it articulates things that are hard to understand, or maybe sheds light on things that were supposed to be understood but hard to see with 21st century eyes, very good work.

bloody brilliant. Jonathon is wonderfully cogent and Jordan is humble and earnest in his quest for enlightenment.

Pains me to see the lack of views on videos like this. Many don’t understand the sort of turmoil they are pursuing and are ultimately hurting more than just themselves unknowingly.

3:00 - the worship of the lower things - leads inevitably to the "reciprocal narrowing" that typifies addiction.

As for building heaven on earth: it’s no coincidence that the Lord teaches us to pray for it. “Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth...” We give our attention to the ideal (which is unbeknownst to us in all its entailments) and then the ideal manifests itself as a whole which is irreducible to our individual attention.

Jordan has a lot to learn from Jonathan

The answer is well said: WORSHIP. Who or What you worship manifest itself on earth through you. So I need to worship that which is HIGHER, to bow before the One who is the Most High. Then the patterns align.

"The Lord works from the inside out. The world works from the outside in. The world would take people out of the slums. Christ takes the slums out of people, and then they take themselves out of the slums. The world would mold men by changing their environment. Christ changes men, who then change their environment. The world would shape human behavior, but Christ can change human nature." - Ezra Taft Benson. This is why worship is individual. A mature and good society is made up of mature and good people who have God at the center of their lives.

What defines Heaven is a marital state of relationship with the God who loved you into existence.

Jonathan, your conversation with Peterson is a treasure. The two of you help others see the world and our life in a different, more clear way, just as in this clip.

Seek first the Kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you.

Every sentence can have a much deeper analysis, and this is something only high intellectuals achieve. It's amazing that this content is for free.

Keep imagining Revelation,keep creating Revelation

St. Catherine of Siena was permitted by God to see the beauty of a soul in the state of grace. (heaven is inconceivable to a man who do not believe in God) It was so beautiful that she could not look on it; the brightness of that soul dazzled her. Blessed Raymond, her confessor, asked her to describe to him, as far as she was able, the beauty of the soul she had seen. St. Catherine thought of the sweet light of that morning, and of the beautiful colors of the rainbow, but that soul was far more beautiful. She remembered the dazzling beams of the noonday sun, but the light which beamed from that soul was far brighter. She thought of the pure whiteness of the lily and of the fresh snow, but that is only an earthly whiteness. The soul she had seen was bright with the whiteness of Heaven, such as there is not to be found on earth. ” My father,” she answered. “I cannot find anything in this world that can give you the smallest idea of what I have seen. Oh, if you could but see the beauty of a soul in the state of grace, you would sacrifice your life a thousand times for its salvation. I asked the angel who was with me what had made that soul so beautiful, and he answered me, “It is the image and likeness of God in that soul, and the Divine Grace which made it so beautiful.”

I think the the point about worship coming first nicely echoes what st. Augustine said in "love, and do what you like" as in love god first, then the rest will follow naturally. It also reflects the stress Buddhists put on meditation, prioritizing it before any other aspect of the noble eightfold path. If you don’t get your head straight first, acting morally will be hard, because you won’t even properly know what your doing.

4:43 Exactly, it's because it was Divinely Revealed and inspired, lol

You guys are so smart

I highly recommend reading the book "Surprised by Hope" by NT Wright - it would clear the question up.

Beautiful conversation for our age 🙏💕

BIBLE PROJECT EXPLAINS THIS. WE NEED A SAVIOR. YOU CAN'T JUST ACCESS HEAVEN WITHOUT THE KEY TO HEAVEN REPENTING OF SIN AND ACCEPTING *JESUS CHRIST* AS LORD AND SAVIOR.

They try to build a heaven, but they always use the devil's tools. -Flyleaf

People are just so impatient! Just wait for Jesus to return and follow Jesus’s example until that happens and you will be rewarded for your faith.

Peterson seems to be a very wise man.

To worship makes total sense. We need to discover what worship means. It does not mean to stand together in church and sing to God. Though that is part of it. "Wor" - "ship" PIE wor- to turn or spin, as in whurl or wheel. Ship- provide stability. Worship means to "turn to stability".

Jonathan you remind me of Jesus. The disciples often didn't understand what Jesus was teaching and he had to explain it to them in private. You are helping us understand what Jesus was teaching by explaining symbols. Thank you!

"its very difficult to understand how anyone could have invented that story" -JP

Awe and wonder! Johnathon a thank God that you have a platform to teach on the scale that you have been graced.

Fascinating

Psalm 127:1 Unless the Lord builds the house, its builders toil in vain!!!

While listening to the full conversation, the U2 song "Acrobat" came to mind. It touches on a lot of the themes that came up. Some people would interpret the use of the word acrobat to signify hypocrisy, but like any song I guess it can be interpreted in many ways. With JBP I think it reflects the way he can talk about walking on the high wire and actually do it Philippe Petit style between the two towers, he truly lives life on the wire. God Bless them both.

A good reminder!

I will synthesize what Jordan couldn't put in words concisely. In order to build something you have to take into account the image of the whole or the blueprint. Every small action has either beneficial or detrimental consequences to your established main goal. That's why the left is divided in itself. Because it has many goals and no direction thinking that all goals are equal. Which means that they don't have a priority for which goals needs to be implemented first, thus they move in circles never accomplishing anything and screwing up everything at the same time. Plus, they judge the whole based on its individual components aka ideology. That's where the humans make the mistake. Because we do things without thinking long term. The way to know if something is correct is to know if it is beneficial to your main goal, and besides that, to know what the effect this main goal would exert upon reality itself. The dichotomy of truth vs lie here is instant gratification vs long term benefit. Here comes the actual argument of morality and also progress. You can't know if something is good or bad, correct or incorect if you don't have an ultimate unit of measure. In this way, that's why God is the most important in determining those things because He embodies all the good qualities. Even if you may not agree to the actual person, then you should at least agree with the idea of a perfect being. Because without such a measure we are without direction and reality itself would be in chaos. That's why morality is embedded in faith and that's why also our progress is embedded in faith as well. Because progress comes from our conscious effort of seeing our mistakes and correcting them. How can we see our mistakes if we don't aknweledge them to begin with because we deny that ultimate unit of measure to determine what our mistakes are?! That's why to be humble means to know that based on that ultimate unit of measure, you are not enough, and thus you need to evolve. If we go by the ideology of atheism, then we are self suficient and even if the problems beat us up, we don't recognize them because we *think* that we are above them and that we do nothing wrong. When in reality we are just fooling ourselves denying reality. That's why atheism breads nihilism. Because from this egoistic thinking that you are infallible comes the crude reality of your own meaninglessness as you dispel the illusion in which you lived. Then, you are forced to find meaning in nothingness because you have fooled yourself that you are the ultimate unit of measure(god) and from there you are stuck because you can't recognize that you need something higher than yourself in order to see how things trully are. Thus, nihilism and atheism is also good because it forces you into a materialistic paradigm where you are content with only surving as you lie to yourself that there's nothing higher and that your 8 hours meaningless job is all you have. Thus is good for the ones who control you and the government as you accept and adapt to the truth that you have in your own mind and that the establishment propagates. Nihilism and atheism dismantled. Dystopia or utopia is our current world as we fool ourselves in thinking that everything is fine through the philosophy of nihilism and atheism. They are the same thing as utopia struggle to accomplish its main objective as well and transforms itself in an dystopia in the end. The actual heaven its a world where we live according to the truth of reality itself. I say this as a theistic agnostic who tries to find the truth just like Jordan Peterson. Nor the theistic nor the atheistic ideological one. But the only truth that governes reality itself. PS: I'm curious what Jordan Peterson would say about this.

Utopia is Nowhere, so Beware.

Very smart of you to start a clips branch of your channel. Keep it up'!!

Wow! What a blessing to watch this clip this morning. Thanks to God and to you, gentlemen!

Thank you so much for publishing this clip! So beautiful, so timely and so true

Needed to hear this so badly right now. Thank you so much for doing what you do

You’re def on point Jonathan!

Interesting topic. Thanks for your hard work.

Super interesting conversation.

Jonathan and Jordan, thank you for these great conversations!!!! Very enlightening and eye opening!!

The is the most impactful clip I’ve ever seen! God bless you guys and keep using you both to keep us from evil!

Forst time i've stumbled on JP 'clips'. This is perfekt. I am normalt very impressed with the content but equally frustrated with the rambling way it is presented. Shows that JP is and artist I guess. Anyway my point is that this clip seems to be a stock cube of the conversation. Clear grader and to the point. Love it!

Thy Kingdom come, on earth as in heaven. The saints do it, it's mentioned in the gospels too. Everyone can do it so long as they put their mind to it and follow the correct teachings. William Bodri's book explains the process, What is Enlightenment? Have to meditate, that's the only way. Turn the senses inward, quite the mind, relax the body, deepen the breath etc. Bodri runs through all physical, mental, emotional etc stages that are passed through and experienced on the way to enlightenment and he gives examples of people from different traditionsthat were successful in one way or another. The Little Book on Meditation is a great companion book. Check out the reviews for starters.

brilliant

Too much knowledge creates too much order, so someone must create confusion. Do you want to be one of those people?

Word

A lot of wisdom. 🙏

Heaven concept belong to the best way to live conscious....each one of us have a private conception

I love these modernised Theological talks

It's weird how empty theology at my religious school pulled me away from my faith, but a secular psychologist pulled me back towards it to a stronger degree than ever before.

Obviously the first phrase that comes to mind is ‘your will be done on earth as it is in heaven’ - looking at heaven objectively, it’s state is unchanging which is ultimately synonymous with death. So in one way it’s quite an eastern approach that sounds like ‘kill your desire if you want to be whole’ with desire (therefor awareness of the future) being the cause of fragmentation from the whole. Evolutionarily we are built on the desire to survive. Theologically we were created with the desire for ‘God’ to see itself made flesh and to have a vehicle to move through and to experience experience itself. This is where I get stuck and I guess is the duality of man. Heaven isn’t something that is created, it’s something that must be surrendered to but it’s almost against our conscience to keep over in that way and taking the surrender motif to its logical conclusion, Cain becomes the hero of the story because his actions actually lead us back toward wholeness quicker.

God reveals what is true and heaven like in its comparison to his word. It can be trusted forever. Even if we travel space And even if we do anything. It has been set

I want to like it again!

Jesus taught that these Kingdoms and nations will be removed to establish Gods Heavenly rulership (Government) over the earth. That is actually the theme of the entire Bible. Dan 2:44 2 pet 3:13 Jer 25:33.

The difference is attention, what you are aiming at, what is on top of the hierachy. Utopia has Man at the top, his well-being( whatever that means). Heaven has God at the top! He is the supreme, the highest aim. That mean Heaven is not a state like Utopia is, but it is a process, process of worshiping and of becomming like God.

Looking forward to know what happened to your September talk. Will it happen any time soon? I mean you Jonathan and JDP.

This the 3rd clip I have watched of these two gentlemen. It led me to attempt to join the Facebook group, I wanted to learn more. I am not qualified to join the group as the questions were a show stopper there. However, I would like to know more about what is a symbolic world view.

2:20 Higher doesn't describe it very well, I would rather think about it is a sort of top-down perspective. Just like understanding a road map doesn't require a literal helicopter but it might make it easier. And if you can except that it is the minds eye then ask yourself why do multiple species of animals use drugs, and what would it imply for the previous? It's about a grand unification and the interplay to create a harmonious system, of isolation and invitation, denial and acceptance. 'Heaven' and 'Hell' are simply different perspectives of the same possibility-density-field that we call Earth. But the object is not left or right it's both at the same time and more then those two combined.

I'll say it again and again, dearest Jordan, Understand the Meaning of Grace. It's not what you said in your tour. Only through Grace we might become what we were designed to do. You're close to that by mentioning that state of Being. Check Tim Mackie.

Damn, that was good.

This subject needs to be expounded upon. The threat of giving in to a utopian vision is usually relegated to cartoons in depiction. In adult renditions it's twisted into an acceptable premise, even with its fatal flaws. A good few writers could probably fix this.

The first great commandment has to come before the second.

It does not yet appear what we will be. Apostle John

is this guy being poisoned so he fades away without becoming a martyr?

That verse with the woman anointing Christ, when he says “You will ALWAYS have the poor with you, but me you will not always have.” has always lead me to believe that in the pursuit of eradicating the poor (communism) we will eradicate Christ instead. (Christianity, those who follow Him, the church). Am I misunderstanding it or is this exactly what Christ was talking about... I’ve had to use this Verse many times when communists claim Christ’s teachings agree with them. “Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength: for he bringeth down them that dwell on high; the lofty city, he layeth it low; he layeth it low, even to the ground; he bringeth it even to the dust. The foot shall tread it down, even the feet of the poor, and the steps of the needy.” ‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭26:4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Wisdom is suffering, ignorance is bliss.

Can anyone explain to me what Dr. Peterson says around 4:45 when he says, "It's not the story of propagandists" and "it's the opposite" in regard to the story of the woman washing Christ's feet. I don't understand the connection and what Mr. Pageau means by the story being about attention, I don't quite understand.

Heaven wil be love in action..Agape continually. .that is impossible on earth as earth stands today..but after He reworks it, after the separation of the wheat from the chaff ..His Will , will be done...and yes worship as the center of the Love is most fundamental. ..Jesus gave us alot of directives so to speak...and the 10 to 613 are the religious interpretation of the two true commandments Jesus have us...to Love Abba with all our heart and soul and love each other as we love ourselves. ..these two describe heaven.. pure LOVE...everything else. ..is His glory...colors, intensity, depth, breadth and length..transparent gold....the rest of the universe. .rooms and furniture. ..feasts....that is nice but it is the Love that makes heaven heavenly. ...nothing else and the Love is His glory

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This seems so oddly timed considering Pope Francis and the ecumenical meeting at the site of Ur

Hey Jonathan, What do you think about this? If we ask ourselves who we are in the story of Judas and the poor woman before Christ, like if we are Judas, the woman, or Christ, it helps get the point across, I think. That is, Jordan Peterson at the end says, "there is nothing more important than getting your act together," [so you can be more like Christ than Judas] but it might be better to ask if we are Judas or the woman in this picture. Why? You mention it comes back to what you worship, and I'm asking how could acting like the woman in the story make us more like Christ then if we tried to be like Judas, or even if we tried to be like Christ in the story.

The Kingdom of Heaven is built in the hearts of men and is manifest in our life - what we say, what we do, and how we respond to the world around us. We aren't meant to make heaven on earth. If we could do that then there would be no need for Christ to come back and do it, and there would be no need for a new heavens and new earth. Every time humans have tried to create heaven on earth, in essence trying to recapture Eden, we have not only failed but made things worse - the Tower of Babel, the various world empires and their pagan piety, socialism, environmentalism, etc.

I know from experience that happiness is all in my reward/pleasure center in my brain. My personal narrative is complete BS. And life is all about solving problems, including premature death. That is it. So why would anybody want eternal life. To do what, exactly? Keep getting high on life?

Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, Or what's a heaven for? ~ Robert Browning

It's very interesting to see that the one who criticised for not helping the poor was the same one who betrayed Jesus.

Forgive my interjection into topics which are above my paygrade and narrow intelligence, but I have an answer to Dr. Peterson's concern regarding the avoidance of a 'tower of Babel' situation, or at least those pitfalls which attend Utopian projects. The answer is found, I think, in old Egyptian architecture: the Pyramid. For some reason, people have long stood and stared at these structures as if they were a token of the divine, and as if they harboured deep, transcendent significance. And I think they do, and that that significance is written into the stability of those structures, which is evident in their enduring nature. The Pyramid is a hierarchical, triangular structure, each layer broader than the last, but not more than is necessary to support the subsequent tier. The physical effect of such a design is maximal stability with respect to a given amount of material, and as such, the Pyramids are a lasting structure. It appears, according to historians, that the Pyramids were engineered with this longevity in mind, for they served to guard the bodies of dead Pharos on their passage into the underworld, which was a long and arduous journey. So, the limit of how deep or far we can sustainably venture is defined by the size of the base with which we start, in the same way that a Pyramid's height will be defined by the size of its base. Therefore, we can aim as high as we like, and perhaps must aim as high as we conceivably can (in order to maintain connection with the divine), but we must also ground ourselves in the material costs and implications of such pursuits. Build too high too quickly, and you have the tower of Babel, doomed to collapse or fall over time. But if you have sufficiently sturdy, broad foundations, and each layer is built with this mathematical relation in mind, then your only limit is material constraint and space. The same appears to be true for human projects: too many forward-looking developments without necessary maintenance to subsequent tiers leads to collapse. Consider, for example, the technological advances we have made which have not been sufficiently integrated into our society before the next advancement: we had not yet developed renewable energy architecture or even approached carbon neutrality before the internet, social media, and now A.I. The truth is, I believe, that we can have these things, and more, but we must first, or at least simultaneously, attend seriously to those parts of our society which have become redundant, inefficient, corrupt, or which simply are no longer sustainable given our population. If we don't- the tower will collapse. So we aim high, but we do so steadily, purposefully, and with the wisdom of the Egyptians in mind. By making sure that the foundations of our projects are secure, with every component built diligently and precisely, each block well aligned with reference to the whole, and each tier suitably sized before we lay out the next advancement, we give ourselves a fighting chance of maximal, or even indefinite, longevity. And that might be our only answer as to how to reach the divine, and how we might successfully realise our collective human destiny. Sometimes the simplest things have the most profound meanings, and the most complex problems are solved by those most fundamental truths.

Can you talk about people within religions who take advantage of the delay of gratification until after death to steal from them?

O'boy. Such a wrestlingfight, similar to that Jakob had with God, All night. Jordan with all his worldly human 'knowledge' has to realise he first has to be a madman, to believe the 'madness of God', i.e The Cross of Christ, before he can be wise, receive spiritual knowledge.

Jordan has a darkness inside of him that was not there 2 years ago. I really believe the dark powers that be hated Jordan for the Good he brought to so many millions that they made a conscious effort to curse a demon upon him. Jordan if you ever see this please see a spiritual healer/shaman to rid this darkness from your body

This is the second time I have seen Dr. Peterson dress like what I think a French artist would dress like.

First step is studying authentic teachings and embodying virtue. Bodri has a youtube video in it... "How to Meditate - A Short Presentation".

One must have faith in themselves/others to do good, not regulate it through Babel

Does this still work if god is only an idea?

Get your hierarchy in order, Bucko.

👏

Watching this is a little like listening to a prophet talk to a seer.

Thank goodness the UN is a tower of babel, they could really do a lot of harm if they weren't lol

Faith is not an intellectual exercise. We will never fully understand the Holy Trinity. Has JP converted yet? 🙏🏻☦️

donc, est-ce la ou l'on cherche notre propre absolution au lieu de celle du Christ par exemple la problématique au fond!?