Good to see you again! I really like the sound of the Yelu Dashi campaign. Having a campaign where you start out in the later ages and then have to downgrade and re-build in the middle scenarios could be pretty unique. Agree that the Idle TC bonus is probably a mistake. Maybe have TCs always generate a small trickle of resources like the Feitoria and have that be their primary/only eco bonus.
Thanks very much my friend! Any suggestions on what to change the TC bonus to? A couple commenters have said they don't think it's a problem, others have said they do, and I really want to try to find a way to preserve the original grounding of the five capitals and the civilizations prominence in trade and culture.
@@robbylava Something like Town centres generate 3 of each resource per minute up to 5 TCs max. My main concern with this is if the bonus is too strong it would allow an OP fast castle or too much gold and stone in the late game. An interesting alternative to emphasise the diplomacy and trade asepct would be to make it a larger gold only bonus, but that would require a serious cap on their late game tech-tree like missing blast furnace, bracer and probably some other stuff too.
I see what you mean. What if I went in a different direction by having the bonus make your villagers work faster rather than generating you free resources? My gut tells me that would actually be stronger than the current bonus but it would give less staying power into the late game. I'm definitely not married to this idea, especially because I actually really like this civilization having massive staying power in the late game, but I want to workshop some options.
Finally getting around to watching this- used to watch as soon as the vid dropped. Ah, better times. Kinda. Anywho. Thoughts on a campaign that ends in defeat: you could make the final level a survival challenge. Reach a certain point to get, "victory," but then the enemies can't be defeated and don't stop coming and it's just a matter of how long you can hold out. Not everyone's cup of tea, but it doesn't have to be. I appreciate that the first bonus applies throughout the game and not just lategame- though I would worry a little about it serving as a noob trap. Prior to post-Imp it cushions mistimings and while that can serve to delay a newer player from improving at timing villagers and avoiding idle TC, I think as long as they don't mistake it for a strategy, they should be fine in time. Second bonus is neat for the scouting utility, and it's another bonus that's really kind to less skilled players- if you're generally behind your opponent, you can catch up a little more easily. Third bonus, I'm not so thrilled by. It seems like it'd be really annoying to deal with and it doesn't really do anything to change the playstyle of the Khitans, only forcing the opponent to adapt. The flavor is neat, but I think it might fall into the camp of, "Not that fun to play, and unfun to play against." I'd also point out, that if you're fighting Khitans and forget about this bonus, you end up losing out on more villager time than you expected, so it does end up as an economic debuff as well, even with minimal fortifying. The fourth bonus is very much one for the skilled players to take advantage of. It's useful for the rest of us, slowing fleeing villagers in a raid, or bumping/repositioning units in melee, but I can imagine pros using this to escape a fight they don't want to take, stopping for one hit and then fleeing while the pursuers are slowed. Maybe that's too micro intensive to be totally worthwhile, I'm no pro, but that sounds fun. Does it apply to cavalry archer units? Because it's way way more powerful for them than melee cav. I am not qualified to judge that Team Bonus. It's exciting- it makes me want to have the Khitans on my team. But I worry that it might be too powerful for some random team combination out there? It's only 1 bonus damage, but 1 damage can matter. I'm not saying I think it is too powerful for a team bonus, just that I think it deserves a lot of pressing to be certain. At the same time, I wonder about a variant: All units get 1 armor vs. bonus damage, basically improving their relevant armor types that bonus damage is applied to. Honestly, probably even stronger, but I'm curious. Ah, so the slow bonus does apply to ranged attacks. I love the Iron Sparrowhawk. No notes. UT1: is insanely good in a team game. Positioning and tactical flexibility are wildly boosted. It would mean that in, say, a 3v3, the pocket could begin building their army post-boom closer to the front lines, if your ally's base is being attacked, you can produce units right there to help- and technically those production buildings have double production speed. Actually, now I think about it, you could just use your ally's buildings all the time, and you both can have the same production speed with have the wood and stone spent on buildings. This might be too good? Though not letting allies use each others' buildings mitigates it a little? It also seems like it does nothing at all in a solo game? Which, I mean, the Huns have Atheism, which is basically always treated as an empty slot by most players. Of course, that's a rather important difference; a tech that's insanely good in team games and does literally nothing in solo games matters for the power level of the civ in a way that a tech that's rarely relevant doesn't. UT2: I have qualms. I think it needs a cost cap, if nothing else. This feels like double dipping in a team game, since you and your allies can be producing from each others' buildings as well. My proposed changes then: tweak UT1 to: You can set your ally's production buildings as the rally point, and units you build will appear next to that production building (or inside it if it's a castle). Rather than having this massive, parallel building option, the focus is on the ability to produce your units anywhere you or your allies have buildings. I don't know what to do to give it a use in solo games though. Final thoughts: Berber ally for Genitours would be fun. I'll miss the full detail dive into the tech tree, but I get it and I support you in this change. I was going to ask how the res trickle interacts with packed TCs, and then I remembered that packed TCs can still build villagers, so you still shouldn't be idling them.
Always a treat hearing from you! You posted a bunch of other comments in the Discord as well, which I will get to as soon as I can, but for now suffice to say that I see your potential issues with the Castle Age UT in particular and definitely would love to hear some suggestions on how to fix them. Your idea is quite cool, quite similar to what Tomáš and I did with the Silesians, but it doesn't feel quite right for the history somehow... I really loved the element of true integration that the shared control thing brings. Do you think there's any possible way of salvaging that mechanic?
@@robbylava Posted a response in the Discord on this, which you may see first. Short version is that since it looks like you're reworking the Imperial UT, then the production speed bonus is less of a double dip, and it simply becomes a matter of dialing in the right production speed- which my instincts tell me should be slower than normal when producing parallel units in an allied building.
In regards to the Castle Age UT: Italians have Silk Road which does absolutely nothing in 1v1, so I don't see an issue with the Khitans having one as well. Also, I really like your idea of that holdout/survival mission in a campaign! There's one in Starcraft 2, and I remember that as being really fun.
Good to see you start again! Awesome civcrafting as always. Hope to see more Asian civs in this channel in the future (Tanguts, Dians, Mons, Chams, Javanese, and possibly even Visayans).
I got a bit inspired by watching a bunch of these videos, and I decided to do a little bit of a theory-recraft for one of my favorite civilizations in the game, that being the Byzantines. As my thought excercise, I decided to use the Macedonian period as the template, the Macedonian Dynasty (867 - 1054) was the high watermark of medieval Rome, so this was the Byzantines at their strongest. *Quick Card: The Byzantines - Cavalry and Defensive Civilization* _Cultural Bonuses_ - Building HP +10% by Age - Fire Ships and Dromons attack 25% faster - Town Watch and Town Patrol free - Farms pay 2% of their food as gold when built - Team bonus: Monks heal 100% faster _Unique Units_ - Varangian Guard: Expensive, resilient Infantry with charge damage. Trained at the Barracks - Cataphract: Heavy cavalry with anti-infantry bonus damage (same as before, but base stats reduced to compensate for unlocked tech upgrades) _Unique Technologies:_ - Tagmatic Reform: Mounted Units get +1/1 armor and +1 attack - Logistica: Cataphracts get Trample Damage (same as before) Complete infantry minus supplies Complete Stable minus elephants and steppe lancers Complete Archery Range minus hand cannons Complete Blacksmith Siege Workshop gets Heavy Scorpions, loses Bombards University gets Siege engineers Unchanged Dock and Monastery, Greek Fire is no longer available Complete economy minus Guilds and Gold Shaft Mining That gold-per-farm bonus is a real biggie. Note that I took away a couple of the signature bonuses of the Byzantines here. The imperial age and counter unit discount. Neither of those make sense to me now that the attempted focus is the Macedonian Dynasty era. Byzantium is no longer such a "beacon in the darkness" of civilization at this time as the imp discount suggests, that's much more of a early Dark Ages with Eastern Rome sort of flavor. The counter unit discount is a big loss, but it’s not justified in this civ build: if the discount for counter units is a reference to anything historical, then the best option is in my opinion the thematic system that the Empire had in its provinces. A system where local taxes should pay for a local army to defend the province. The problem is that the system didn't work like this anymore by the time the Macedonian Dynasty arrives on the scene: A loophole in the system where people could get out of their military obligation by fronting the cost of a recruit's equipment and training was being exploited on a regular basis by wealthy landlords, so they could keep their fit, young men working for them rather than going to the army. The state took this extra cash and used it to hire other recruits instead, such as the landless poor and foreign mercenaries. This _monetization_ of the Theme System was a mixed blessing for sure. It was in part responsible for funding the conquests of the Macedonian era, but also reduced the military readiness of many areas, a problem that had its worst effects when the Turks started making inroads into Anatolia in the 11th century. This also ties into giving the Byzantines a full blacksmith now and taking Supplies out of their barracks. You get stronger units, but you gotta pay for 'em. Note that I haven’t taken any of the counter units themselves away from the Byzantine tech tree, having access to them is still important. The other bonuses stayed either because they're still relevant (fire ship damage, free LoS techs) or for lack of a suitable alternative (building HP and Monk healing). The new unique unit was a pretty obvious choice. The bodyguard unit established by Basil II that served as imperial shock troops (hence the charge damage), the Varangian Guard. Their stats are high, but they are expensive. You get what you pay for, as the saying goes. Trained at the Barracks, so if you have the resources massing them is quite viable. Because Bloodlines and Blast Furnace are now available to the Byzantines, the Cataphract’s base HP and attack are reduced to avoid being overpowered. _Tagmatic Reform:_ The _Tagmata_ (greek for 'regiments') were originally formed by Constantine V back in the 700s, but took on a greater and greater role over time. The middle Byzantine army relied on its Cavalry most of all, the Cavalry was expected to be the arm winning battles with infantry taking a more supportive role. The Cavalry regiments of the Tagmata were the best equipped, best trained, fully professional units in the army, so the Byzantine cavalry is now the strongest arm, with all techs and upgrades and a small bit of extra durability and strength to help maintain the player's investment. The Farm gold bonus! This one took some thought, and I think this is the closest I could get without copying the Burgundian and Vietnamese gold generation bonuses, which I of course would like to avoid. I have taken a lot of savings away from the Byzantines in this rework (imperial discount and counter units), and I always intended for them to get some new sort of economic boost, so why this? The greatest source of revenue for the Imperial treasury was its taxation of land. The value of the land was determined by its assessed productivity, so how much tax you owed depended on how fertile your land was. So, as an attempt to represent this, you get gold paid to you in fixed sums that get better the more productive the farm is. The bonus has its fullest effect after you research crop rotation: 550 food yields 11 gold every time a Farm is built. The exact values can be altered, I kept it small because this is easily the most broken bonus idea in here.
Beautifully done! I'm very glad to have inspired you, and I really love the historical justifications behind your proposed changes. Would love to see more if you decide to make more!
The team bonus is very reasonable, maybe strong for a team bonus but definitely not for a regular bonus, and this civ definitely plays into team stuff so it makes sense they would have a strong team bonus
My friend! You honor me! :D Also, this was one of my most anticipated civs from you. I love the way you designed this civ as well. Very authentic and historically sound. The Iron Sparrowhawk is also so well designed too. The hybrid of ranged and melee is a really cool touch. 👌🏻 Also, thank you for including Kushluk, he’s a nostalgic character for me. Hahaha. Jokes aside a campaign centered around Taizu is what I hope the devs make. The Khitans are so overdue and I hope the devs take notes from you. Incredible work as always brother! 👍
Ey! Thank you so much for the kind words brother! You were definitely one of the reasons I went with this civilization, and I'm so glad you enjoyed how it turned out.
finally got to watch the video after work - thank you Robby, loved it. Some ideas: 1. what if the blacksmith has one extra post-imp calvary armor upgrade, like one more after plate barding that gives them an additional +2 +2. This is staying on topic with the heavy armor but poor melee theme, in the absence of cataphracts. 2. what if the post-imp assimilation becomes an UT, and you get to research an UT of your enemy or ally. Amazing, though, as always - well researched, well thought out. Loved it!!
Really glad you liked it! And those are exceptionally cool ideas. I've played around with researching other people's technologies before, and I could see something like that working for this civilization but just can't find room for it. The extra stable technology sounds insane! Super cool idea, but definitely very powerful! If the civilization ended up being quite weak I could absolutely see doing something like that. Really interesting idea! Thanks so much for sharing Jimenez
By the way I made my own (partial) Khitan civ crafting on the AoE 2 forum some months ago, and I named their UU "Pishi", which was the name for a Khitan elite army in history. I imagined it to be a melee cavalry, but it has a charged pierce attack (high pierce damage and 100% accuracy though short-ranged) right before melee engagements.
Needs more Cataphracts!!!! And maybe mercs "Yelu - Xiao" (allied troop types) hired from markets! ...err I mean fun & crazy build welcome back & congrats on the growing family!
Welcome back. Great video. YES on cataphract and frankly more regional units like more Camel unit variety. Also something to replace the Knight for non European Civs. I think too u could give the Khitans another UU.
Thanks man! Really glad you enjoyed it and like some of the potential ideas. I did strongly consider giving them another unique unit! I just felt like they have such a versatile Tech tree that it might be overkill to give them yet another tool to play with.
I've been missing these theorycrafts but didn't want to bother you in what's probably the most important moment in your life! The Khitans were a no brainer at this point, the kind of civ needed to fill the gaps like they did in Europe by adding Burgundians or Bohemians and spice up things in old campaigns like Gengis Khan. Maybe I'm talking crap but they remind me a bit of the Byzantines as their playstyle is heavily centered around counter units while missing crucial upgrades like Blast Furnace or fairly common ones like Elite skirms but, aside from that, having basically all possible military options, Paladins included. Would you define the Byzantines as an Interference & Hybrid civ as well? Because that seems quite accurate if I got those terms right! As for balance I found it weird that one of their bonus is basically a second team bonus: the one about you and allies receiving a notification whenever the enemy research an upgrade. It doesn't make much of a difference anyway, given that the tech catch-up applies only to you. The Team Bonus may be too strong, I think it's totally fine as a bonus for Khitans alone because they lack Blast Furnace etc so it has trade offs, but if you happen to be in team with civs like idk Franks & co doing +1 to all your counters may be too much. But again I always say I'm not the best at imagining balance issues. As for the new entries in the Tech tree grades, I would suggest you to add an "Elite" troops category maybe along with the already present Levies, just to give it both sides of the military at this point (Byzantines for example would be great in Levies and not so great in Elites). The "Teams" category is a perfectly fine addition. And, like with Elites-Levies, just for the sake of symmetry, instead of having just the "Early game" category maybe you could make a little overview with grades for each stage of the game, usually Early (dark and feudal), Mid (castle, early imp) and Late (imp and post imp). But of course this is more work so just a suggestion! Thank you for the new content and best wishes for your family life (probably too early to say but the new one seems to look more like your wife indeed)!
Thanks so much for the kind words! Really glad you liked the build, and I really liked your suggestions for my format going forwards. The comparison to the byzantines is not at all bad. In retrospect that might be one of the closest parallels currently in the game, though I would personally call the byzantines more of a levy civilization due to their big focus on trash units. I typically use interference to mean that they directly mess with their opponents game plan, like how this civilization penalizes fortifications, spies on upgrades, and that sort of thing, which the byzantines don't really do.
The enemy slowing effect is super cool. It seems like it would be goated for cavalry archers, decent for steppe lancers, and for the rest... I guess it could help them flee, but most cavalry can't hit and run in a way that really takes advantage of that, I would think. But for cavalry archers... that would be so good.
Amazing video as always. Btw, thanks to you I started to create my owna concepts for new civilizations. I already did like 10. I would love to share some of them with you to know what an expert think about them
I'm delighted to hear that! Thank you so much for your kind words. I'm hardly an expert lol, but I would certainly be more than happy to take a look. Feel free to reach out to me over Discord or at the email associated with this channel!
Oh, we finally back. I've been looking forward to this. Currently not able to nitpick the intricacies of central asian cultures to see if there were any post-Mongol Khitan states, but I think I'll be going back to the Kaesong scenario (the cut scenario of The Forgotten expansion) which, unfortunately, has an inaccuracy in it I didn't notice back in your Jurchen video. It features the Tang and the Jin dynasties, with the Jin taking over Tang. This is of course inaccurate as you demonstrated and, looking into the time period of the scenario, should feature the Liao taking over Tang, as it happens in the early or mid 10th century. Not bothering with the fact that tge scenario isn't playable today, that would be a potential appearance. Aside from that, I'll look into it, but I think they effectively disintegrated past the Mongol conquests. Not many opportunities past that, or as a rare instance in some vs Mongols scenarios as an alternative to the Tatars
Hey! Maybe for once I actually managed to cover the campaign appearances sufficiently myself! Good to see you in the comments my friend. I hope you enjoy the build!
@@robbylava The only alternative I can come up with is adding them as an enemy in Kotyan Khan. Best place seems to be in the second scenario. Reasoning being that the Khitans did end up as a part of Mongol armies, so replacing a Mongol player with a Khitan one in that scenario would make some sense, especially when there's three Mongol players there. Aside from that, no more appearances exist. There was apparently a Khitan vassal state in eastern Persia, but all existing campaigns end up circumventing this area either geographically or just skirting past it temporally.
Hi Robby! Good to see you too! :} Nice build, I always like your out of the box ideas. The "idle TC" one I especially like a lot, and I feel like it will benefit the late game a bunch. I have one comment though: How does the "enemy fortification" bonus plays out in tgs? Isn't it a "de facto" team bonus? If so, and let's say the civ is implemented more or less "as is" in game (fingers crossed) AND the team turns out to be too oppressive in tgs, wouldn't it be worth swapping the "enemy fortification" bonus with the "bonus attack vs counters" bonus (which some civs out there will be able to use even more oppressively than the Khitans)? Also, side question about this same bonus: Does "enemy fortifications" also include palisade walls and gates?
Really glad you like it! It's great to see you in the comments, my friend. Excellent question about the fortification bonus! This actually came up originally on my Danes build, where originally their team bonus was something that penalized all opponents. Quite a few commenters felt like it was actually underwhelming and thought it would make more sense to shift it to a civilization bonus with a new team bonus replacing it. The logic was that there are a couple of existing bonuses that do similar things, the Vietnamese TC reveal bonus being chief among them, and I thought that was fairly compelling logic. Don't get me wrong though, this civilization is definitely VERY good in team games! And that is very much by design. But if it ended up being too oppressive I would of course be happy to change it! Yes, Palisades are absolutely included in the fortification bonus! In fact, they were one of the main buildings I was trying to focus on with it, since they come up in almost every competitive 1v1 game.
A very interesting civilization but a unique unit I don't think will work on the game engine as you said but I think you can make it like Ratha where you select the tip of the attack
Glad you liked it! I agree that the unique unit pushes the boundaries, but I've done a couple of more standard attack swapping units before and really wanted to try something completely new with this one. Totally fine if it's not viable in the long run
Okay, let's see if I've still got it. (Hah! Pretending that I ever did...) Bonuses: - *Relic TCs:* Each TC basically acts as a Burgundian relic in Imperial Age. Five free relics with snacks on the side sounds rather tasty. Maybe also a tad strong, but it could be reduced to a flat 20 maybe (so 3 relics and a bit - still with snacks!). Interesting bonus! - *Enemy upgrade notifications:* This sounds really cool and a nice catching up mechanic. Just one small question: Do you mean 2,5x the original speed, or 1,5x? (The reason why I'm asking is because your Georgians have a conversion bonus with a similar increase, and 2,5x faster conversions sounds rather excessive.) - *Expensive enemy castles:* This is basically what it's going to do. 813 stone for a castle is a LOT. That's not the main problem, though. Since repair costs depend on the cost of the building, it's going to be increased by 25% as well - and then doubled by the bonus also. And made slower too! This means that a treb war is going to be vastly more expensive for the opponent (and difficult - they'd have to pull more villagers to even get the same repair rate). Plus it also applies to them trying to defend against a tower rush. And all of this in team games as well. It's a lot for one little bonus. A lot. If this was reduced to +10% build cost, +25% repair cost and no repair speed penalty, I don't think it'd be too weak. It'd still be just enough to make stone walls cost more (+0,5 rounded up). You could maybe move the speed penalty to construction instead. It'd still have a significant impact when trying to rush a castle or defend from one, but I don't think it'd be nearly as penalizing. This is a really interesting bonus, but it also really needs to be done right for it to work properly. Phew! that was a lot of writing for one little bonus. That just shows how fascinating this is! ...I'm such a nerd... Anyway, onwards. - *Cavalry slowing enemy units:* This one also seems too strong. 20% reduction is a lot, and even one unit being hit is enough to slow an entire group down, if you can't quickly pick out the culprit - which can make a small mistake in, say a Knight vs Knight battle, be devastating. Once again, I think this could benefit from being a flat 10% reduction. Or maybe I'm just being overly concerned here. - *Team bonus:* With the Khitans lacking the final melee attack and ranged armor upgrades, it doesn't really end up doing too much for them. It's a nice bonus, though, and with the right teammate it can probably be really powerful. Unique/regional units: - *Iron Sparrowhawk:* Cool unit and the name is just excellent! Double benefit from the speed reduction is going to be aboslutely disgusting, though (40%!), which is one of the reasons I'd like to see that bonus toned down a bit. Maybe it should have an on/off toggle for the special attack, meaning it'd still work as intended, but against all units and only when turned on? This way you'd actually have to work a bit to get the most out of it. - *Tower Elephant:* This could work well for the Khitans to protect their arbalesters. I think the elite upgrade could be cheaper. 3k resources is silly expensive, so it's hardly ever going to be researched. Maybe a separate technology that grants +1 capacity could be added also. Possibly even with a slight reduction to the RoF penalty bundled with it (you could add it to the blacksmith or university, if the castle is getting too crowded). Unique/regional techs: - *Yelu-Xian Union:* I really like this one. Such a simple, yet highly creative idea! It has the potential to be really useful and make it possible to reinforce different areas much more easily, but you'd still have to actually pay for all the units, so it's never going to be too strong. Great stuff! - *Sworn Letters:* Very good idea. However, the perpetual doubling of each tribute sounds like it's going to quickly become prohibitive. There should probably either be a cap on it, or it should only increase by the same amount each time (so 500, 1000, 1500, etc.). - *Migration Era:* Moving houses will be great for decluttering the base, or for walling off somewhere. And being able to move dropoff points will save a pretty penny (a wooden penny, but still). So much potential from this one! Overall, once again a great new theorycraft. And, once again, one that probably requires some tweaking, haha. Thanks as always for these, Robby. They're a delight to watch. Good to have you back! edit: Added "regional" to units and techs for clarity.
To elaborate a bit on the fortification bonus/penalty: A standard castle costs 650 stone and has 4800 HP. This makes it about 0,1354 stone/HP. The cost of repairing a building is half of its resource cost and based on the percentage of its hit points restored (according to the wiki). This should then make it 0,0677 stone/HP for repair purposes. Repair rate is a fixed 750 HP/min (12,5/sec) for the first villager and 375 HP/min (6,25/sec) for subsequent villagers (again according to the wiki). - This means a repair cost of *0,846 stone/sec* for the first villager, and *0,423 stone/sec* for subsequent villagers. For a standard castle with no upgrades/bonuses. An opponent of the Khitans' castle is going to cost 813 stone (650 + 25% = 812,5 rounded up), which makes it about 0,1694 stone/HP for repair purposes (not halved since they pay twice the cost). The repair rate would then be 375 HP/min (6,25/sec) for the first villager, and 187,5 HP/min (3,125/sec) for subsequent villagers. - This means a repair cost of of *1,059 stone/sec* for the first villager, and *0,529 stone/sec* for subsequent villagers. However, in order to repair at a similar rate, they would need 2x+1 the standard number of villagers (to balance out the first standard villager, you need the first villager plus two extra subsequent, and then it's double for the rest). To make a direct comparison, 3 standard villagers will be compared to 7 Khitan opponent villagers repairing a castle for one minute. - Standard: 0,846*60+0,423*2*60 = *101,52 stone* - Khitan opponent: 1,059*60+0,529*6*60 = *253,98 stone* In other words, you're going to run out of stone real fast if you try to keep up with the Kardas.. I mean Khitans. Not to mention that you already paid out of your nose to build that stupid castle in the first place. To take a look at my suggestion (+10% build cost, +25% repair cost, no speed penalty): A castle would then cost 715 stone, which should make it 0,0931 stone/HP for repair purposes. - This means a repair cost of *1,164 stone/sec* for the first villager, and *0,582 stone/sec* for subsequent villagers. In the same comparison as be fore it would then be: - New Khitan opponent: 1,164*60+0,582*2*60 = *139,68 stone* Now it's just about a 37,5% increase, rather than 150%. Still a nice bonus, but not nearly as imposing. You could also either keep just the +25% cost, or the +100% repair cost. But I definitely think it needs to be toned down in one way or another. Anyway, I hope this was helpful! edit: Forgot to mention that all of this assumes that I did the math right...
I don't think they should have an elephant UU. They only used elephants towards the end of Kara-Khitai or Western Liao likely due to Persian or Indian influences, for the majority of their existence elephant wasn't their thing, instead they mostly relied on cataphracts and horse archers. If it's a regional unit (like it was presented in the video) I could kinda accept them for having it, but definitely not as their UU.
@@weifan9533 Ah, apologies for not making it clear. I didn't mean to suggest that it should be a unique unit, I was just talking about how it might work for the Khitans (as a regional unit). The suggested techs are also intended to be regional. I'll correct the categories.
Beautifully reasoned as always my friend! Thank you so much for your contributions to my builds. Wish I could give you as thorough of an analysis as you have given me, but I've been kind of strapped for time to respond to comments these days. Suffice to say that your feedback is being taken with great consideration!
You should do two likeliometers, one for the civ itself being added and one for it looking anything like your build. Because i agree with your rating for the civ being added, but i doubt it'll be anything like this. New video format is good, by the way!
Not a bad suggestion! I thought about that myself, though if we're perfectly honest it's pretty unlikely that any of my builds will look much like how those civilizations would actually be added heheheh Honestly, my only hesitation is I'm not sure how to elegantly include it in my presentation. Maybe like a superscript number or something? I'll think about it some more. If you have any suggestions I would love to hear them! And thanks for letting me know that the format adjustments are working out all right. Feedback from you guys is the only way I know for sure!
Have you ever considered a pre columbian north american civ? perhaps great plains indian maybe iriquoi, or maybe something like the navajo cherokee, etc. maybe from northern canada or siberia, tlingit, chukchi
I have certainly considered it but it's proven very difficult to research them in a manner that's at all reliable. There may be something in the pipe right now, but it's been a topic I've been a little hesitant to tackle by myself and I'm hoping to have someone who knows more about it help me out.
I think you need to eliminate Arbalester and possibly Paladin because your civ is very hard to counter in the late game your first bonus + trade or market in the solo game bring you a steady supply of gold and your opponent doesn't have a chance to counter you if they make Halberdier you have Arbalester + Siege Onager + Heavy Scorpion if they try cav you have Halberdier + Heavy Camel Rider if they try archer you have full stable + siege
There's no doubt that they have a very, very strong post imperial age, especially if you are playing on a team and have tons of gold to work with. I'm personally okay with them having that niche, since I think their units are individually flawed enough that it probably wouldn't be too oppressive, but if we ever get to test these suckers in action I would absolutely be willing to tone them down if it seemed like too much in practice
I don't think that their units are individually flawed you have post-imperial; stable only without a Blast Furnace barracks without Blast Furnace and Arson that I don't consider so vital archery range only without Ring Archer Armor siege workshop only without Siege Engineers which can hurt because your onager has 1 less range I didn't mention the team bonus which, in many situations can half disadvantage the lack of some tech or even empower some units
@bloodyqshark4170 You're definitely right that their units don't suck or anything, I just meant to say that they don't have any fully upgraded late game unit and, as such, will pale in comparison civilizations that have any sort of bonus to one of their power units. That being said, you might be right that their power units are just too stacked. I'm just reluctant to remove one because of historical accuracy. If there are any other clever workarounds you could think of I'd love to hear them!
I suggest their removal because I don't want to do something on their bonus because I like the unique take on it, to make the civ not so overpowering that nobody will want to play against it you will need to do something on civ bonus, or on their units @@robbylava
@bloodyqshark4170 A couple of other commenters have also suggested alternatives for the current team bonus, so I'm going to weigh a bunch of their ideas and see whether I want to change it up. Depending on what direction I go with that, I just might take your suggestion as well. And regardless, I really appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts
Hello man! Good to see you back. I love the economic bonus. Very powerful and well thought. When you say fortifications for the ennemies do you also mean castles? The team bonus is very interesting. I would be curious to see what it gives. But I would say that it's not that great... for Khitans themselves. Missing blast furnace means that their halberdiers and hussars would deal 1 less damage to all (need to check but it should) counter units. And the fact that they lack elite skirmishers means -1 attack and pierce armor so even with the bonus, ennemy elite skirmishers will inflict the same damages. It's like the team bonus of the Chinese who lack... crop rotation. What's the point to have that? Any civilization with crop rotation with a Chinese ally has better farms than the Chinese. The unique technologies make the Goths feel noob^^
Thanks so much for saying so man! Really glad you like it. The team bonus definitely matters a lot more in the early game. In the late game the only units it will really help out will be archers, though of course your teammates with full blacksmiths will really benefit a lot. Do you think maybe it could help if I made another unique unit or changed one of the unique technologies to interact with your side of the team bonus to make it stronger for you under certain circumstances? And yes, castles were intended to be included in the fortification penalty! Do you think that's too much?
@@robbylava for the castle no, I think that it's good. Rough for the ennemy but a good bonus. For the team bonus, you could maybe do something like Malians or Lithuanians. They lack balst furnace but for their cavalry, they have something to compensate. Maybe giving more attack against counter units but with the imperial age technology? The idea is that they would be great against their counters but not that much against what they are meant to counter. It's a niche never researched before.
@divicospower9112 You're not the first person to suggest it! I think I may well go in that direction. Thank you so much for taking the time to watch Divicos, it's always great to hear your thoughts!
Similar yes, but I was hoping distinct enough to not just be redundant! I have tried weapons switching mechanics on a couple of other builds and really enjoy them, but something many people point out is that they tend to require a lot of fiddly micro but not everyone likes. This was my attempt to make the mechanic a little more streamlined and not require additional button presses.
@@robbylava After the Khitans and Jurchens there're still 2 civs around the periphery of China that I'd like to see: 1. the Tanguts (Western Xia) which represent Northwest China you mentioned about them in the video. 2. Dians/Bo/Baipu which represent the native populations of Southwest China as well as the Nanzhao and Dali kingdoms they founded. Some people proposed to use the terms Nuosu or Bai however those are modern ethnonyms to stay in line with history and to be as inclusive as possible I think the terms Dians/Bo/Baipu are better choices.
@@robbylava Baipu was a very ancient term to refer to the natives of Southwest China and it traces its origin all the way back to the Warring States period.
Yikes. I love the whole video, but from ALL the civ overvieuw bonusses, the only one that doesn't trigger me is the notifications from enemy techs. Cool concept that won't ruin games. Let's talk about the rest: Idle TC ress: powerfull lategame eco bonus with no setup needed. Portugal needs pop space, others need collecting relics, building fortified churches etc. This bonus must need you to do something out of your way, because if you plan on making it lategame, building TC's is something you do even without the bonus. More costs for fortification building en repairing for enemys: Maybe there is something in the game, but personally I cannot think of a single ''bonus'' affecting your enemys. And I think this hasn't been done for a very good reason. You unbalance so many other civ's with it, and this one is very damaging on maps where the meta comes down to imp castle-treb games. In tournaments this would be an auto ban if only for this bonus wich is lame. Mounted unit's reduce movement speed: I understand the reasoning behind it, but if any unit doesn't need a tactical buff regarding speed it's horse archers. Regular cav will see close to zero effect from this, whilst cav archers would be even harder to catch.. well luckely they are countered by some ranged units right? (You must know where I am going with this) Oh look, a heavy cav (archer) with good defence and HP with no archer weaknesses. Oh you want to double the slowing for these unit's? How marvelous. Serious question Robby: give me one unit that counters this unique unit properly. This is a lategame unit because of upgrades and costs, so a few monks are not going to cut it, siege will be dodged and all other cav will be so seriously decapitated because of all other cav awkwardly pathing against the slowed frontline cav that they will never get a hit in in their life. You made them uncounterable by ranged units so.. I don't see it. Even without the slowing bonus my minimal extra debuff for the unit should be that they fire slow like a cav archer and that they will only shoot whilst standing idle, so that when you give an attack command they will charge like a melee unit. Ally production sharing: new meta: let the Khitan player make forward militairy buildings and all allies will produce in their enemy faces. Same with docks. You don't even specify that castles are not uncluded, so I guess forward castle into gg? No, cool concept but unworkable. I get why you went for non shared que time, because it would bring hate if teammates start denying you your production buildings, but that only confirms why the fortification debuff shouldn't be there either. Speeding up your creation time: if the civ would not get conscription I can see hoe you could give them a temporary more powerfull creation boost. But just like mentioned in the past: make it a bonus, not a penalty for the opponent wich they have to watch out for to respond to. Make the tech temporarely and infinite to research and I think you mechanicly come close to your desired outcome, without the enemy intervention. Yes less fun and less relevant to the history, but I would dread anything like this in the game. Team bonus: oh god please no. I have no idea to asses how overpowered this could be, but that already makes clear how much it would destroy the whole balance of the game. Who knows what trades well with what at this point.. we have the opposite with the reduction of bonus damage, and this already had to get nerfed. +1 is very much final and has no way to get tweaked. I am not a team v team player, but I am pretty sure that this bonus could ruin team games as a whole. Go crazy with bonusses, but keep the integrety of the game stable please xD
Heheheh this was very fun to read. I've gotten some great feedback from other commenters, and I do think there are ways to salvage most of these! Besides the castle age UT, that is definitely feeling less and less feasible the more I look at it. If you have any suggestions on how to change these bonuses to make them more fair while keeping the core feel I would love to hear them!
Is it just me or did you ramble quite a bit more in this video than usual. No offence but to me you almost seemed drunk in some parts. Is this just you being rusty or something? Again no offence but I feel I have to be honest.
@@robbylava Good! Neither have I! But in all seriousness, I didn't really enjoy this as much as I wanted. Your rambling really got in the way I'm afraid. It made it really difficult to keep up with what you were talking about times.
@@erikdw8379 can you give me a specific instances or time stamps? I am known to be quite rambly in general, and I want to try to pinpoint what is different about this. You also may be getting tripped up by the new format of the videos, since I am changing how I present them pretty substantially
@@robbylava I don't know. I didn't think this new format was THAT different. It was mostly just the way you talked that seemed unfocused. But at the same time I myself was watching it in a car while being a bit tired, so less than ideal circumstances. Though one moment I thought was somewhat unfocused was when you talked about the Levies. But, again, maybe I'm just rusty myself.
@erikdw8379 well hopefully we all clear off the rust together over the next couple videos. I have some cool ones planned! And even if they don't come as often as they used to, I'm certainly hoping they will continue to increase in quality over time
