The stones just obtained all of the rights to this music from their record company and immediately removed their names from the Bittersweet Symphony writing credits and are giving all future royalties to The Verve. Proof that it was the record companies who had the issue, not the artists. Rock on!
Absolutely, the transition is a masterpiece. And I have little doubt The Verve copied the tune from the Rolling Stones, who had previously copied it from the Staple Singers!
That transition at 1:58 is like the momentary rush you get when you walk to the edge of the roof of a skyscraper and look down and your mind tries to catch up with the view of the huge drop....
Fallon brought me here. I'm musically retarded, I hear not one bit of The Last Time in this. The whole thing sounds like Bitter Sweet Symphony to me. To my tin ear, those songs have nothing in common. Is this a giant prank on me?
Yeah, they basically copied the orchestral version, they didn't change a single note, great job as the orchestral version was perfect, changing it would have made it worst
They slightly changed the rhythm....and made it only with strings, that's all... only 6 notes, and yet, it is great, I like the Verve's version better.
The fact that this song is all The Verve is known for tells you everything you need to know. While Andrew Oldham, though not a household name, has the legacy of having been the producer for The Rolling Stones.
The music video for Bittersweet Symphony is beautiful. It's exactly what Richard Ashcroft should have done in this situation... Just keep on walking, singing, and ignoring the world.
***** Grow up? Go tell that to the Rolling Stones. Jealous that The Verve's song got so much more attention and popularity than their own song, they decided to sue. And you can ignore a lawsuit... You do nothing about it. That's ignoring it.
***** I really enjoy how you talk about biased and nonsensical opinions, then state your own later in your reply. Other hit songs by The Verve: Lucky Man, Sonnet, and She's A Superstar. Also, if you took the time to read the case involving both parties, you would see the statements made, which is where the jealously comment comes from. I don't feel like arguing with someone who name calls. Continue on ranting and being a bigot if you must, but leave me out of it. Thank you. :)
@@BeachBoysSummerPartywhy odd? Marries are part of the "hopelessness of life", you need to stick with that and like it, because me nor you know the future. Because this is part of the life. And somewhat, this is the great thing of living! You will always have to give your best regardless of the rest, and even if it isn't enough, you will have done the best you could, that's excellent. Imagine the boredom of already knowing what will happen, I couldn't live in a life like that. So throw yourself into the desolate world of circumstances, play dice with luck, and you will see that those who win are those who struggle. I wish you a world of goodness
So, the story goes more or less like this. Back in the day, a gospel group called "The Staple Singers" recorded a traditional folk song called " This May be the Last Time". In the 60´s, The Rolling Stones ripped it off and made a typical Rolling Stone song with more or less the same lyrics called "The Last Time". Soon after, their manager Andrew Loog Oldham assembled a group of musicians to create orchestrated versions of Rolling Stone´s songs, and among those, he asked David Whitaker, an english composer and arranger to create the orchestration for "The Last Time", which he did. This string orchestration is the one we hear in "Bitter Sweet Symphony", the one that The Verb ripped off. The Rolling Stones "original" song has hardly anything to do with this version. They were mediators, they ripped of a song and later sued a band for copyright infridgement on an arrangement the didn´t made from a song that wasn´t originally theirs in the first place. If anyone should ask for copyright is the 19th century anonymous hillbilly/black countryman songwriter or the orchestrator David Whitaker, the rest are full of shit. So, this is the kinda crap copyright bullshit that fucked up today music... I said so.
why? He´s the manager, even less relevant. Managers are parasites. I think they were anyway, it was Oldham that made the claim as I recall, not Jagger.
I think most are parasites, I don't know why, but I've always had a hunch that Peter Grant was responsible for Led Zeppelin's "stolen money" incident in 1973.
Exactly, it was a case of greed, the verve got permission to use a sample, even if it was used throughout the song, they had no right to take %100 royalties and songwriting credit when there's no similarities in melody or lyrics in relation to "the last time". If anything, David Whitaker should have gotten %30 for writing the popular melody/motif, the rolling stones/oldham %20, and the verve %50 for original lyrics and melody.
These songs are the biggest example of Record Companies / Group Managers taking undeserved control over the artists material, Jagger and Richards never agreed with the rights going to them. Good on them for sorting it out!
I like both version but I think The Verve's version make the Stones's version even more beautiful. In a way, Bittersweet symphony is an improve version of The last time.
As far as I know the Verve had permission from the Rolling Stones to use the sample from "The Last Time". The definition of a sample is that a "sample" of an original piece of music can be used in another composition but cannot form the foundation of it or in other words be used from start to finish. This is where the Verve got themselves in trouble. There is no denying it is a crystal clear sample for which permission of use was given so never mind the name calling and cries of plagiarism, the reason the courts ruled against the Verve is because the "sample" runs from start to finish of "Bitter Sweet Symphony". Probably the toughest lesson learned in music legal history but my God, what a fucking tune!
jonesybar Actually, the sample runs from the beginning to the end of Bitter Sweet Symphony. All the way through dude. A sample can't be the foundation of the new song. Get your facts straight bub.
@@marlboro308 they did... they were given the rights to sample the music, but Jagger saw that The Verve were going to have a smash hit and wanted to take the money and credit. I'm guessing the stones own the Andrew Oldham Orchestra, and it sounds nothing like the original song 'this could be the last time'. Its just been about money for the stones... they've lost my respect
@@christhomas7905 Mick and Keith didn't care, band manager Allen Klein was the only one who made a big deal out of it, it was all him that got the rights taken away from The Verve. Keith is quoted as saying that it was some "serious lawyer shit" and "if The Verve can make a better song, they can keep the money."
So it all started over a sample from this Andrew Oldham Orchestra recording of the Rolling Stones' song "The Last Time"......There never actually was an "Andrew Oldham Orchestra" -- Oldham was the Stones manager/producer at the time, & he used his musical connections & studio knowledge to create various side projects under that name. The Verve had successfully negotiated the rights to use a six-note sample of said recording from Decca Records, the recording's copyright holder -- however, they did NOT obtain direct permission from another former Rolling Stones manager Allen Klein, who owned the actual song copyrights. One version of the story is that the Stones & Decca agreed to license a five-note segment in exchange for 50 percent of the royalties, but Klein claimed the Verve voided the agreement by using a SIX-note sample. Although "Bitter Sweet Symphony" had already been released, Klein refused to grant the licence for the sample, as Decca Records had previously done -- This led to a lawsuit with ABKCO Records (Klein's holding company), which was settled out of court. The Verve ended up having to relinquish all royalties to Klein, and the songwriting credits were changed to Jagger/Richards, with Ashcroft receiving just $1,000 for completely relinquishing those rights. Verve bassist Simon Jones said, "We were told it was going to be a 50/50 split, and then they saw how well the record was doing -- They rung up and said we want 100 percent or take it out of the shops....you don't have much choice." Ashcroft sarcastically said, "This is the best song Jagger and Richards have written in 20 years", noting it was their biggest UK hit since "Brown Sugar". In a 1999 interview, when asked whether he believed the end result was fair, Keith Richards said: "I'm out of whack here, this is serious lawyer shit. If the Verve can write a better song, they can keep the money!" Eventually, Andrew Loog Oldham jumped on the money train as well & sued The Verve after failing to receive the so-called "mechanical royalties" he claimed he was owed. After receiving his royalties, Oldham joked that he bought "a pretty presentable watch strap" compared to the watch Jagger and Richards would get with their money. In a later interview, he said: "As for Richard Ashcroft: well, I don't know how an artist can be severely damaged by that experience. Songwriters have learned to call songs their children, and he thinks he wrote something. He didn't. I hope he's got over it. It takes a while." In May 2019, Ashcroft received the Ivor Novello Award for Outstanding Contribution to British Music from the British Academy of Songwriters, Composers, and Authors. Ashcroft announced that the dispute was over following negotiations with Klein's son, Jody, and the Rolling Stones' new manager Joyce Smith. Ashcroft thanked Jagger and Richards "for acknowledging me as the writer of a fucking masterpiece!" He added: "As of last month, Mick Jagger and Keith Richards signed over all their publishing for Bittersweet Symphony, which was a truly kind and magnanimous thing for them to do. I never had a personal beef with the Stones. They've always been the greatest rock and roll band in the world. It's been a fantastic development. It's life-affirming in a way."
Actually it wasn’t the stones collecting the royalties, it was the record company that had 100% of the rights to the stones “the last time” song…I just wish the stones would’ve been more vocal about the whole issue…
@@sergewangneur it was Allen Klein, not the Stones. He controlled all of their Decca catalog recordings from 63-69. He kept bleeding the Stones dry. So he did the same to The Verve. Klein was the main reason the Beatles broke up. Everyone except for Paul wanted him as their manager and Paul was astute enough to know how shady Klein was. He had a reputation for being a ruthless businessman.
Can't believe that in this age of information, there is still so much disinformation out there. The Rolling Stones did not, I repeat, did not sue The Verve. The Stones were not involved in this in any way ! It was ABKCO Music Inc that sued them, based on the recording of "The Last Time" by the Andrew Oldham Orchestra of which they (ABKCO) own the publishing rights. ABKCO owns and controls 100% of the worldwide copyright to the original 1963-1971 publishing catalog of Jagger/Richards Rolling Stones compositions. Sadly, The Verve made a great musical creation by using the sample from the Oldham version , but they paid a heavy price for a small mistake... Taken from wikipedia: On their song "Bitter Sweet Symphony" the British alternative rock group the Verve sampled the Andrew Oldham Orchestra's version of the Rolling Stones song "The Last Time," the rights to which were owned by ABKCO, and included it on their 1997 album Urban Hymns. The Verve had obtained the rights to sample the recording from Decca but didn't think of getting permission from ABKCO until the album was ready for release by EMI. Realizing that he had the advantage in negotiations, Klein forced Verve vocalist Richard Ashcroft to sell his rights as lyricist to ABKCO for $1,000 and ABKCO became the sole publisher of "Bitter Sweet Symphony." The song became a hit, popular for use at sporting events, and it was a big money-maker for ABKCO, which licensed its use for commercials advertising Nike shoes and Opel automobiles. Mick Jagger and Keith Richards were nominated for a Grammy for Song of the Year, even though "Bitter Sweet Symphony" bears little resemblance to the Stones' "The Last Time
"The Verve made a great musical creation by using the sample from the Oldham version" ...using a Sample? It's basically a polished copy with added lyrics, which are to be honest good but not great. I really don't see the greatness in this last creation phase. Don't get me wrong it IS a great musical creation after all, but it's more like 80% Oldham, 18% Verve and 2% Stones.
Who else appreciates the irony that Bittersweet Symphony, which was HUGELY influenced by The Last Time was featured in Cruel Intentions which was HUGELY influenced by Dangerous Liasons?
It is a wonderful marriage of the 2 - the Oldham orchestra w/ Bittersweet symphony. the bells are what make it. which are a symphony on their own merit.
Well done to the stones for the great instrumental then to the verve for 1 ov the best indie songs ever.never tire ov listening to this song.up there with the best imo.
The sad thing is that nobody remeber about the song of The Staples Singers, ''This May Be The Last Time'', that once was stolen too, but by the Stones...
+Roman Výbošťok you are aware the last time has two different recordings right? The first one is from the Stones and it in fact is ripped off. The one playing here was done by the guy who owns the rights to Stones pre 1970s music.
There is only the one sentence that is the same, "may be the last time, I don't know", so I think in the Stones song it was more about making reference to the song than stealing it. The whole song sounds nothing like the Staple Singers' song.
Some one should make a movie where a father and son bond over their depression and the son ha bittersweet symphony while the dad has last time and then they combine as they bond more
Amo profondamente sia i Fab4 che gli Stones e devo dire che this could be …”The Last One” è uno dei loro pezzi che mi fanno impazzire …. però: grazie a Oldham e soprattutto ad Ascroft per aver insistito, resistito ed avere infine portato alla luce uno dei più bei pezzi di sempre ! Viva il Rock ! .. e bravi Mick & Keith per aver rinunciato ai diritti : questo bellissimo pezzo fa bene anche alla loro grandezza, probabilmente lo hanno capito anche se in ritardo.
Bitter Sweet Symphony é uma linda versão da música original. Ficou até melhor que a música original. Não tem nada de plágio. Os direitos autorais foram concedidos.
Yeah, but the Stones ended up with all the royalty $ from the song. They have enough money of their own, so you'd think they could be upstanding dudes and give it back to the Verve? Nope.
apartir del minuto 2 waoooooo es una de lasejores canciones que he escuchado en mi vida ....sin duda alguna esta cancion en tu auto a todo vpmumen y luego bajas del carro y caminas haciatras locazooooooo
Okay, I see little to no connection between the original The Last Time and the orchestral version of The Last Time, and I am listening for it really hard. At best it sounds like a really slow version of the original. I really don't see anybody connecting these two songs together on their own. So...let me get this straight...this Andrew Oldham made a song that was at best inspired by The Last Time (a song that is decent but nothing special), and called it a cover of The Last Time. Then The Verve came along, heard this, and got full rights to it. Then they offered 50/50 royalties to THE ROLLING STONES for their sampling of the orchestral version that is at best tangentially related to The Last Time. Then, when the song became a hit, the Rolling Stones demanded FULL ROYALTIES? I think I officially have deep moral qualms with the Rolling Stones.
The Rolling Stones didn't demand the full royalties, their former manager Allen Klein did. Klein's ABKCO Industries (now distributed through Universal Music) owns all of the Stones' catalogue along with Andrew Loog Oldham's compositions. He's the one that demanded 100% of the royalties after the song became popular and then furthermore licensed the song to Nike to use in a commercial against both the Verve and the Rolling Stones' wishes. You have to realise the Stones fired Klein as their manager in 1970 and then also went through a nearly 20 year legal dispute with him to buy back their music catalogue because he wasn't paying their royalties as well. At no point did Jagger/Richards ever sought after royalties for Bitter Sweet Symphony. It's one of the greatest misconceptions in music history.
Lorena00 que tonto, cómo puedes decir eso ? A eso se le llama plagio. Se les hizo muy fácil cambiar los arreglos y pensaron que pasarían desapercibidos y hacerse famosos a costa de los demás. Afortunadamente los derechos de la canción están a nombre de quien lo merece.
@@sahibzitho que ignorante eres... Se les pidió permiso para arreglarla se llama un Sample... Al ser un Sample de una canción te pertenece .. así que infórmate q en la actualidad los ladrones le han devuelto todos los derechos a El q arreglo mágicamente esa canción claro les peso la conciencia y se arrepintieron ya que el #Daño ya está hecho.
I can't say that I met Richard Ashcroft and Liam Gallagher in the middle of Camden High Road all those years ago .. it was about summertime and there was no traffic at all .. these things only happen in Camden Town .. I never met any Stones tho'
se for escutar Last Time esperando ouvir Bitter sweet, vai achar pouca semelhança. Pq na real eles pegaram Last Time na versão instrumental.... daí sim, dá pra ouvir q é parecido.
It was all about ego and greed, the stones received royalties they didn't deserve, and after a huge amount of money was made off the verve's version and paid to the stones, they finally agreed to give "future" royalties to the verve, kind of "we have squeezed all the juice out of this orange, you can have it now"
The Stones “sampled” Andrew Oldham Orchestra for their song “The Last time.” (Orchestral version) ✔️ The Verve also “sampled” Andrew Oldham Orchestra for Bittersweet Symphony. ✔️ What the Verve failed to do was “sample“ The Stones “The Last Time.“ ❌ I think the root of the problem is that the Verve did not have adequate music industry legal counsel before publishing, Bittersweet Symphony. If they had been better represented by a knowledgeable, music attorney, they would’ve realized that it was encompassed in The Stones song The Last Time. But sampling a song does not give you the rights to the original music. That’s what I don’t get and I think it was wrong. But I’m not a judge, nor am I in the music industry. I think they got hosed. But at least this is a well played song so they will get royalties enough to live comfortably, but not like “Rockstars.“
