In my playthrough, I had been the Lord of Frenzied Flame but had used Miquella’s Needle to remove the influence of flame. So once I encountered Midra, it felt a little more personal. Almost as if the Flame recognized my Tarnished as it turned towards them. The fight now being about facing past decisions in a big climax, to face the Frenzied Flame itself.
When I fought him the first time I was on a playthrough where I used the frenzied flame to save Melina and then rid myself of it with the needle, so my fanfic version of the fight was my character, having experienced the horror that could come from housing the flame, knew that I had to end this poor man, not to just protect the world, but to release him from his agony.
In reality, though, followers of the frenzied flame do not care about who ascends as Lord. In their eyes, all forms of madness are to be revered, and each lord is one step closer to the world returning to the One Great
One thing that I haven't seen anyone else point out is the fact that Grapes and the process of Aging evokes imagery of Wine. In many ways, it seems like the process of creating a potent Lord of Frenzied Flame mirrors that of creating a potent bottle of wine. Gift the lord with ripened grapes, and then seal him away with the seed of frenzy fermenting within while the lord endures, until it is finally time to "pop the top" so to speak.
Ohhh I like that a lot. This also connects the frenzy to Dionysus, literally the lord of wine and frenzy. His followers were supposed to go into ecstatic states where they'd mindlessly commit acts of sex and violence. I never would have seen that connection, well done!
I like the idea of an eldritch being that appears as just a hand. It puts me in mind of what the animals in a terrarium must think, when the human opens the top and reaches inside.
The sound design in the cutscene where Midra becomes the lord of frenzied flame is absolutely incredible and adds so much to that fight for me. I love how they adorned the typical sounds of flames burning with these eerie wails, like some cosmic being shouting from a void. It really accentuates how otherworldly the frenzied flame is.
About Nanaya, I think the gesture of her hand on her stomach is symbolic. She's overseeing Midra's birth as the Lord of Frenzy. Her hand on his shoulder with that knowing smile betrays her command over him and her insidious intent. This contrasts with Midra himself, who is earnest and meets the gaze of the painting's observer with seemingly nothing to hide. It's master and puppet, basically. So she is a "mother," in a sense, but more through her "nurturing," which squares pretty well with the torch she carries, too.
While this is highly relevant, it is also possible that she was, indeed, pregnant at the time the portrait was made ; Nanaya's torch states that it was made on a "small backbone" - if I am not mistaken ; not a "broken backbone", or a "piece of a backbone", but a "small backbone", suggesting that it was unaltered, and originally small. As a consequence, you can imagine that it was made using a frenzied flame from a previous failing lord, and the spine of the child she had with Midra. Moreover, some theorists (credits to @kroguetdovah, the video is in French tho) seculated that Nanaya might have had something to do with the Deathbed Companions: her clothes are similar to Fia's, and the fact that she could keep this frenzied flame from the torch warm for a long time aligns with the ability to steal and give warmth that the Deathbed Companions have.
@@AntoninBobot-Marinier You are welcome to believe she was pregnant, but I think the evidence presented doesn't lead lead to that conclusion. There's no reason for Nanaya to hide her pregancy, nor would it have been possible for her to conceal her plans for said pregnancy from Midra as the "ripening" process would have been impossible to hide given the time needed and the madness it induces. The small backbone seems more likely to be a play on words. Having a small backbone could mean "no backbone," or "not enough backbone." The previous candidate didnt have was it took to become Lord of Frenzy, basically. I also just think the death bed companions are too different thematically to be related to Nanaya. Death bed companions are very earnest. They are genuine sources of comfort. They ask for the warmth from willing champions and they see death as a state of being worthy of respect. The chaos flame cares about none of that.
@@austaneousc5802 The word "backbone" wasn't the one used, I made a mistake, sorry about that. The word used was a "small spinal column", so something really precise. And nothing says Nanaya hid her pregnancy ; the gesture for a woman to lay a hand on her stomach typically represents pregnancy - of course, it's just an artistic convention. Nothing actually proves that she was pregnant, it's just a theory. And of course, the fact that she could be a deathbed companion relies 100% on interpretation and speculation - it wasn't me that created the theory. All of it is speculation. So, you're probably the one in the right there. All I stated was speculation. That being said, wrong or right, it's just a neat theory. And your own theory was relevant too, btw, probably more than the one I stated, and just as neat.
What a terrifying and honestly undeniable reading. I could see the theory that she was also pregnant isn't contradictory of this. She was a mother in two different meanings.
going thru what looked like a regular catacombs, only to go down elevator after elevator to the pits of hell, to wind up at the abyssal forest/Midra's mance was one of the most incredible sequences in a souls game imo. That, and one of the coolest bosses ever at the end of one of the most terrifying sections in a souls game
Not just the catacombs but also its all hidden under the Shadow Keep and leads down a ravine with destroyed ruins, a village of Flymen (they are shunned by Hornsent), a deranged samurai’s mausoleum and is just generally a dark place in terms of brightness. It made you feel like you were going through the dregs of society, into a resting place for the dead and then finally hell
Appreciate your opinion, but after going through the massive area of the abyssal forest I couldn’t help thinking what a waste of an area, the forest being completely barren but for some goats, no use of torrent and the annoying forced stealth mechanics, it felt so gimmicky and half baked. The manse itself was fun, but took about 15 minutes to run through and beat. Decent lore though
one thing I like about the aging untouchables is how, outside of parrying you can also kill them with the Black Knife and Black Blade, which may be a bug but also shows that Destined death is absolute, and that Melina isn't just all talk in the FF ending.
Watching this video spitting out my drink "YOU CAN KILL THEM!?!?!" Beaten that area on three characters already and never ever knew that. God what a great game it keeps giving me reasons to go back lol.
@@Trollkiller There's a note in Midra's Manse that tells you that parrying their attacks breaks their invulnerability. There's no note for the Destined Death thing, it's just something the players thought of that the devs didn't.
i actually hope that they give a unique interaction for destined death against these things, like making it deal more damage against them or at least making them vulnerable. would be cool to have more than one way to kill these things.
We can all agree Midra probably wasn't the hardest boss, but he is clearly one of the favorites from the DLC because it's a masterclass in building up tension. First, you arrive at the Abyssal Woods, unable to summon your trusty stead who is too frightened to appear, despite following you resolutely everywhere else. Then, you have the messages telling you can't fight what lies ahead. And when you finally sneak (or parry) past them, you arrive at this bleak manor, accompanied by screaming that gets louder and louder, the closer you get to the boss room. Incredible
Before even reaching the woods there is build up. A hidden painting in the Shadow Keep leading to a stone coffin, a pit filled with discarded furnace golems. A pitch black catacomb hidden away with an open boss arena at the end.
Don't forget to mention the absolute banger of an OST. Also Midra is just a fun fight with an easy to learn moveset that doesn't have any bullshit ultra flashy, fps draining, "how tf do I dodge this" attacks.
As a wise man once said: FromSoft games seem to randomly choses in all the list two bosses you'll destroy incomprehensibly easily, and two that will make you spew your innards before you can even comprehend how to survive two of their assaults
Midra is lowkey one of the best bosses in the game and seeing just how destructive the frenzied flame is even when it’s not burning everything is terrifying. You can just FEEL the despair especially after seeing the painting of what it used to be.
@@anonisnoone6125his posture isn’t too bad tho is it? I mean I’ve only fought him with dex weapons so far, and maybe get 1 poise break per fight. That’s about par for most of the dlc and late base game bosses
There’s a brilliant parallel between Nanaya and Lady Macbeth: She is the maiden, companion of this lord who has a hold, but no real power. But when an opportunity for power comes along (at the behest of supernatural sources, no less) she encourages him to not only capitalize on it, but to “endure” the hardships that come with it (“stick your courage to the sticking place”). She is a woman in a place and time where women who weren’t of royal decent didn’t have the opportunity to establish any kind of formidable power or authority. However, she still has this strong, downright disturbing obsession/desire to preserve some kind of legacy of power not only for herself, but for her husband/companion. She also had a prior marriage/relationship, and it’s open to interpretation that she projects all of her desires/resentment of the loss upon her new partner. It all culminates in this opportunistic, obsessed, desperate and formidable woman manipulating her partner to seize an opportunity for power. Far too many similarities to not raise the point, as far as I’m concerned.
Good observations. I was on a similar line of thinking: Viewing ER lore through the lense of GRRM, Nanaya is a parallel to Melisandre the Red Priestess. They both travelled from distant lands encouraging the belief in shunned diety, focusing their efforts on noblemen that they convincd were destined to become powerful lords and avatar’s of their god, and moving on to another once the previous failed.
Lady Macbeth, like Nanaya, is often viewed as the mastermind behind her partner’s rise to power. Both women operate in worlds where direct access to authority is denied to them by the structures of their time, yet they find ways to exert influence through the men in their lives. In Lady Macbeth’s case, she encourages Macbeth to seize power through regicide, manipulating his doubts and stoking his ambition with her own relentless desire for control. Similarly, Nanaya seems to push Midra to embrace the power of the Frenzied Flame, encouraging him to endure the suffering necessary to become a Lord of Frenzy, knowing it is a dangerous but powerful path. The idea of Nanaya encouraging Midra to "endure" echoes Lady Macbeth's famous line: "screw your courage to the sticking place." Both are urging their partners to go beyond their limits, to transform into something more, despite the cost. Nanaya, like Lady Macbeth, seems acutely aware of the consequences and sacrifices involved, but is willing to risk it for the chance at power, even if it means manipulating the person closest to her. This suggests that her motivations go beyond mere companionship-there’s a deeper ambition or even desperation that drives her actions. The notion that Nanaya may be projecting her desires and unresolved resentment from a previous relationship onto Midra also deepens her characterization. Just as some interpretations of Lady Macbeth suggest that her ambition is rooted in dissatisfaction with her own life or her place in society, Nanaya could be using Midra as a vessel for her own unfulfilled dreams of power, legacy, or revenge. This gives her manipulation an emotional core-one born not just from power lust, but perhaps from a past that still haunts her. Nanaya’s obsession with legacy and her willingness to manipulate Midra ties into the broader theme in Elden Ring of ambition and legacy-be it the Erdtree, the Greater Will, or the Frenzied Flame. Every character is striving for something beyond themselves, often at great personal cost.
The concept of two and three fingers is interesting. Even numbers can be balanced in a scale by putting one on each scale, but odd numbers make the scale to topple on the either side that has the extra. In terms of astronomy, two body systems have predictable and orderly trajectory while 3 body systems have an unpredictable and chaotic trajectory.
@@klymen the cinqudea states that Beasts were given the gift of 5 fingers as a form of intelligence - likely given to them to rule over the Elden Ring in the Prehistoric era
@@klymen and Metyr has 14 + 10 + 1 giant thumb with an eye + A RANDOM NUMBER of Two Fingers crawling from within her body. Anyway SHE is more ancient than the Elden beast, so if any observation on the silhouette of this type of fallen star being should be made, I think it would be more relevant to observe Metyr. Unless you think five-fingers beings didn’t exist before the golden order. Which is clearly not the case ; dragons, misbegotten, beastmen, clay men, even Astel or fire giants. All have five fingers.
@@AullanstThe Elden Beast is the Elden Ring. That’s his point. 5 would thus be synonymous with either the Greater Will or the wholeness of the One Great. The number has obvious sacred connotations to the GW and its Elden Ring.
@@graphemelucid8407 Bloodborne and Elden Ring are different games with different motifs. Fingers aren’t as important in BB as they are in ER. Just because they aren’t important in Bloodborne doesn’t make them unimportant in Elden Ring. Different games, different rules. Fingers are literally littered around every major concept of game design and political/religious structure of Elden Ring’s world. Hell, depending on who you even ask, the Entire Lands Between map - in its current form - looks like a furled finger. Fingers and Hands are as important to Elden Ring as Eyes are to Bloodborne. But both games differ in a lot of ways of concept. So just because fingers don’t matter in BB doesn’t mean it’s not the most important source of narrative told in Elden Ring, because it is. lil breakdown incase you forgot: - 5 fingers/whole concept: it’s the concept relating to the one great. 5 fingers are a sign of intellect given to the earliest form of intelligent life (cinqudea weapon and HYETTA dialogue) - 2 fingers: we know what this represents order - 3 fingers: we know this represents chaos, and represents a Bad Omen in current times (Four-toed fowl foot) - 4 fingers: this is a signifier of luck, and is directly compared to 3 fingers (four-toed fowl foot). Metyr is also one of the rare beings with only 4 fingers The only time in Elden Ring where fingers don’t follow this rule directly is as a result of Metyr’s fertile defects. The finger creepers, stated by Ymir, are unnatural and impure children, born of defects - that’s why they disregard the finger rule.
I think the three fingers are a malformed child of Metyr. The two fingers use their limbs as antennae to communicate with the greater will, but they have never understood that the greater will has simply abandoned them. They continued to wait, and to lie to the finger readers, waiting for an answer. Even their mother keeps waiting. The three fingers realized what no one else had: the great will had abandoned everything. This truth drove the three fingers to despair. I think that's how they summoned the flame of frenzy for the first time.
This makes a lot of sense when it comes to Shabriri, Hyetta and Nanaya, the two fingers granted the Shadowbound to the Empryeans, the candidates for a new god, so why wouldn’t the three fingers do the same, that’s what those three are, Blaaid says it himself when u try to kill him, “a shadow can never die”, Shabriri says the same thing when u kill him, that he can never truly die
One nice touch to the lore and Melina standing against the frenzy is that the aging untouchables can be killed with the destined death status. It takes longer than parrying but can be done.
I was wearing headphones when Torrent suddenly bucked me off his back and I swear I jumped from the couch. Then that music came on, sent shivers down my spine just being there and looking at the polluted river filled to the brim with madness... The messages left behind helping me, warning me, but I kept going, seeing so many bloodstains, EVERYWHERE. And those Winter Lanterns, never thought I would ever see them again here! I wish I can traverse that area all over again and just take in the enormity of the trees, which also reminds me of Ash Lake!
I interpret the Abyssal Woods as the closest analogue to what a world burned by Frenzy would actually look like. Eerily tranquil and largely devoid of life
Yes! Finding the Abyss is the most like finding Ash Lake since Ash Lake! I actually really liked the spaces of the DLC for this reason. Lots of people are bitching about "empty spaces" but these spaces are BEAUTIFUL and horrifying. FROM did it's best with the Abyss, but this is part of why I think SoTE is another high-point for their execution. There is SO MUCH you can miss, and it's so interesting to explore!
@IndieGinge Those complaints aren't totally invalid; the Finger Ruins areas, for example, absolutely suck. I have never heard anyone say "boy, I sure do love exploring the Finger Ruins!" unironically. On the flipside, you have Jagged Peak, where the only enemies aside from a few slugs are the dragons. Of course there wouldn't be any other enemies up there, the dragons would have destroyed them. Plus, scaling the peak towards Bayle's arena while red lightning strikes down constantly really helps to build up one of the best dragon fights FromSoft has ever delivered.
Part of what I love about the design of the Frenzy spells is that it looks like the caster initially tries to contain the madness behind their eyes, before it erupts out of them. A constant struggle against a madness that keeps finding its way out.
As a history nerd, what i always love about Souls games is the lore speculation. Since we only get pieces, we always have to speculate and put a puzzle together. Its just like real history. You have bits of evidence, maybe a theory....but sometimes we will just never know for sure. So the story evolves overtime with new finds.
I don't think any Legacy Dungeon has stakes in them tbh. The only one I remember is at Redmane Castle, just before Radahn (which is kinda useless as there's a site of grace just before it, where you fight the crucible knight)
His cloak is very similar to Goldmask's, his pelvis almost echos Goldmask's loincloth and the title "sage" shared between them. And finally, the flame of frenzy and Goldmask's sunflower mask. He seems to have been visually designed as a dark reflection of Goldmask.
In a weird way that reflects their most devout followers, Shabriri and Corhyn. They look identical in Vatii's frenzy videos; for good reason. The clothing description made it odd to be worn by Corhyn. Starting to really like this theory.
Something I’ve yet to see anyone mention is the way the weapon shifts to aid him after Midra pulls it out of himself. The two things that were eternally torturing him are what aids him in fighting you, which goes insanely hard
I think you could see it like the sword was reforged by the flames of frenzy toward a new purpose of helping to spread its influence through its new master, The Lord of Frenzied Flame
wow, the contrast between Midra shouting/mad, and when he stops “enduring” is so striking - from high-pitched wailing to a cool, confident, low clear speech. The voice work in FS is always so top notch - few games actually carry meaning thru even the voice acting like their games do.
I never would have guessed that before I read your comment since both roles are so very different in style. This guy's voice can really transform. @@eviltoad746
It's a stretch. I'm much more convinced the lynchpin is the position of her hand. She was pregnant, they loved each other, he endured out of love. This is the same as what the later potential frenzied flame Lords have to motivate them, maybe even the inspirational blueprint, since he came so close. What if shabriri is nanyas child?
@@FFKonokois there any item description that suggest that she was in fact pregnant? Because it seems you're stretching too. Plus the smile is very significant and suggest that Nanaya was indeed evil and manipulating midra
@@FFKonoko Seems unlikely to me that Shabriri would be Nanaya's child. Shabriri nature of being a sort of skinwalker that posesses dead bodies and his ties to Vyke and the Frenzied flame suggest to me that he should be far older than the tragedy that occured at the manse. He also speaks and acts like somebody with a great deal of experience, so I find it unlikely that he would be this young.
i heard in another lore video a while back that the reason why the 10 corpses in front of Mirda's mansion have those 10 glowing stakes in their necks is so that the frenzy doesnt erupt from them they serve the same purpose as the sword impaling Midra himself, to keep the frenzy at bay
Shabriri possessing Nanaya is probably the most logical explanation. From sinister grin on the painting and covered eyes, to multiple instances of him fooling people into accepting frenzy. He did this to merchant great caravan, Vyke, the player and now Midra as well. I could even make a case for Irina/Hyetta being Shabriri’s another tool of deception, as he is a mastermind in lulling people and I can’t really believe that he’d be so honest with us when meeting us at mountaintops as Yura. Shabriri is chaos incarnate, he is the first failed lord, he is Nanaya, he is Yura, Hyetta, Vyke’s maiden, Caravan deceiver. Everything that has to do with chaos all stem from him, for he is chaos incarnate. We can’t just assume he’d be as obvious as he was in Yura’s body
It still felt kinda wrong to me.... Feels like we broke into this man's house. Went to his room and kicked the shit out of him. Forced him to rip his own head off.... Beat the shit out of him again. And just took his runes and rememberance. For a more good aligned character, I played as (to the best of what the game provides me).... I chose to leave the manse. (But then, switched to a Sheogorath character and used the sunflower rememberance weapon to do the dungeon. Seems like a decent way to sidestep that. It's not canon to my character. =V)
@@DataDrain02the only reason Midra was still kicking even after being szitkabab was because he know if he loose consciousness aka loose his head, Lord of Frenzied will come out. Us entering his manse uninvited, beating the shit out of him just make the old dude quit
It’s insane how Midra was one of the most striking shots in the trailer but by the time I got around to the DLC I completely forgot about him. Then that cutscene.. easily the best boss in Elden Ring for me.
As someone who specifically avoided the trailers because, well I already knew I was going to buy it so why spoil things for myself, I was completely floored that they just dropped a lord of frenzy flame boss fight just in the middle of map, make it optional and make it one of the best. My jaw dropped when he sprouted the frenzy flame head, easily one of the best fights in the dlc.
38:10 maybe Vyke was deceived by Shabriri, directly trough his maiden. Shabriri possesed vyke's maiden and told him as his maiden to travel far below the capital. this would explain the line: "Did he make his choice for his maiden, or did some other force like him with suggestion?" if it is true that Shabriri took Nanayas body ofcourse just like vaati mentioned, i like this idea.
Could've been with anyone's corpse for that matter. If Vyke's maiden was dead and her body was being occupied by a stranger then he would have no reason to burn himself, this is of course considering Shabriri did not tried to play a Yura impostor but was honest about stealing his corpse.
honestly when you think about it maybe the reason shabriri posses yuri and not our maiden is, well, because we are maidenless, and our substitute maiden is a demigod child of Marika, presumably someone he cannot posses.
@@warcheddar4163 And also a spirit, if i remember correctly. The Tarnished seems to be out of the norm for pretty much everything that concerns him. We find the bodies of maidens lying all around of the Lands Between, so I'd assume that the Maidens dont actually accompany their Tarnished; they're set to wait for them for his/ her return to give him a new quest. (aka, you finished way A, now go way B to get to this rune, just like Gideon does, basically) So for me it makes sense, that Shabiri somehow possessed the maiden of Vyke - maybe there is no need to "actually" kill the host, Shabiri could be some kind of spirity, weirdly parasite that infects a host somehow - and then told Vyke to venture below. I feel like Shabiri is the "maiden" used by the Three Fingers to lure Tarnished or, promising Candidates for Lordship to themselves. Maybe the Three Fingers exist, because the mother of the fingers realized, that there is nothing new of the greater will - and tried a different approach, creating the three fingers. the question is - how did they end up down there? Somebody must have hidden them by purpose, yet, without being influenced by them. So far I've never seen a proof that one of the Two Fingers is able to move by themselves. Every Two Finger of the Demigods is on top of their tower - instead of Rannis, that one is hidden beneath a ruin. We also have no clue why the Two Fingers of any Demigod are dead - we only know Ranni killed her Fingers herself. So *who* put the Three Fingers there and who put Ranni's Finger where they are? If they were hidden not by Ranni, but by someone else, how did she know where they are? On top of Rannis Tower is only her original Body. Did she maybe hid her Fingers there by herself; ensuring no one of the Great Order can stop her from killing her own Fingers, if the plan got leaked out? And then proceeded to use her Tower as a bit of an Irony; freeing herself on the place the Fingers used to control her? Did she want to be as close to the Moon as she could for some reason? I feel a lot of things are still untouched/ not taking into consideration forming a lot of thesis of story lore of the game.
@@tensho4 for Yura, he knows that you most likely witnessed his death and doesn’t try to do fancy tricks. Vyke’s maiden was probably killed by Shabriri or she died in a way that Vyke wouldn’t notice
I think the "too weak to become a lord" thing is referencing how he was too weak to become THE lord of frenzied flame, he became a "lord" in the physical sense of replacing his head with the eye of chaos but he wasn't able to melt away the world like the lord of frenzied flame is supposed to, because we stopped him (or replaced him)
@jansenncuber8009 It was just a copy and paste bloodborne enemy, though. Hell, I would've settled for a frenzied flame headless from Sekiro or a dragon.
If you superimpose the SOTE map over the Lands Between, the "Abyssal Wood"area looks like it should be underwater. That would make sense, because "Abyssal Plain" is the name for a flat part at the bottom of an ocean.
Ive said before when playing the Manse that Midra feels like he moves as if he's a living jumpscare- he'll float aimlessly on the spot as telegraphing, and then *boom*, he's in your face.
That’s actually not even his head. There was supposed to be a reusable consumable item called midra’s head that you would be able to get from either his remembrance or find it on the ground after the fight
10:30 the inspiration for this idea is likely from Greek mythology where Chaos is the primordial void from which everything in the universe was born. It is not a deity in the traditional sense but rather the state of existence before the cosmos was formed. Chaos is often described as a vast, dark, formless expanse. From Chaos emerged the first primordial deities, including Gaia (Earth), Tartarus (the Underworld), Eros (Love), Erebus (Darkness), and Nyx (Night). This is lines up quite nicely with everyones favorite Shabriri quote "MAY CHAOS TAKE THE WORLD"
27:09 I don't think the blindfold has to do with madness specifically. Corhyn wears a near identical blindfold to Hyetta, yet he has no tie to madness. I think an explanation might come from the Prophet's Blindfold. It reads: "Why hesitate, if the path leading to the future is clear? Just close your eyes, and walk." It seems to imply that a blindfold is a symbol of faith, that you're giving up your own sight for some higher force to guide you to your destiny.
Yup. Similar thing happens with the Guilty gouging their eyes out. They see the blood star. Pure blindness seems to be associated with a higher truth. A prophecy even. And if one is touched by an Outer God, their blindness leads to the embracing of the Outer Force (I.e- Malenia being fully blind allows her to be a worthy conduit for translating Rot into Life; or how Messmer’s pure-blindness also communicates the intensity of a particular Abyssal Serpent deity; Miquella, having closed both his eyes, is able to ascend truly unto Godhood; Corhyn prophesied the ruin of the Erdtree, having both his eyes covered; Hyetta is able to truly see into the distant light in a cosmological sense, eating Eyes, as she is completely blinded of the mortal eyes that which would allow her to interact with the Human world)
that’s an incredible observation, it shows that no matter the outer god, faith stays faith, and wether it’s a tarnished or a hornsent, it’s still small people kinda manipulated by entities thought to be good (or kinda in the frenzied flame context), it kinda resonates with the whole cosmic horror thing going on with elden ring and bloodborne
Also earlier in the video it's mentioned that whoever made the Mad Craftsman's Cookbook had their eyes burned by Frenzied Flame, so this could possibly be that Craftsman. It would also explain the creation of the weapon.
My impression from the blindfolds of Hyetta and Madding Hand Man is that they both gouged their own eyes out (or at least, had their eyes replaced), and the Frenzied Flame took root in their empty sockets, as was the case with Shabriri (Shabriri's Woe Lore), and their use in the game is largely meant to be indicative of their total dedication/succumbence to the Frenzied Flame.
The theory I held is that the frenzy appeared in the forest, and the inquisition comes in to destroy the Manse, thinking the Hornsent of the Manse are responsible for it- and maybe they are in harboring Nanaya, (who seems to have brought it with her)- and in doing so, make the Frenzy in the forest unbelievably strong. The "confusion that inquisitions bring" is the realization some have that the inquisition's methods are exacerbating the issue, and yet the inquisition does not stop. This also explains the manse's confusion as to their persecution.
What if there wasn't any madness at all and Nanaya/Shabriri lied to the inquisitors that Midra was up to something? Kind of like the Merchants under Lyndell.
I love the fact that if you want the flame of frenzy to properly take over and make sure that nobody can stop you, you'd have to progress normally up to farum azula. With Melina gone, you'd have to wipe out everyone in the shadow realm as well and THEN inherit the flame of frenzy and finish the game. There wouldn't be anyone alive that we know of that could stop you in that situation. Oh and I checked, if Melina lights up the Erdtree and THEN you get the frenzy flame ending, that last bit of the cutscene doesn't happen any more, meaning she's gone for good
I came here to say this. All true. I did this exact thing on my DLC run. I started a new playthrough after a year long break and half way through was like, you know what let's fucking burn this place down...
Counter theory- Nanaya WAS kind and gentle, and earned Midra's full trust. She dies during childbirth or the child is birthed too early, and she dies of heartbreak. Shabriri takes over, Midra and everyone else, none the wiser
@monsieurdorgat6864 could have been brought there from someone else, which is what caused Nanaya to be corrupted/taken over. We know it's called Nanaya's torch, but as far as I can tell, it's only called that because that's where we found it. Unless the Japanese description actual describes it as hers in full. it could have been another's torch Shabriri/another brought with them in another body, before taking over Nanaya's as he saw potential in Midra. It is a bit if stretch, but it isn't exactly beyond possibility for Shabriri/others connected to the frenzied flame to body hop until they saw another with potential[Or someone else other than Shabriri with his exact same goals in mind, and willing to be more cruel]
@@Loyd64 Well, it's getting into disbelieving what the title implies, and without a hint telling us to. "Nanaya's Torch" uses its 's to imply ownership. And we're given no hints to imply it wasn't hers the whole time - so it seems we're supposed to imply it always belonged to her. Motives could be complex - we definitely could speculate that she was always a shell for Shabriri, but at least that much could follow from the other canon hints without us disbelieving the canon text without a hint to do so.
@monsieurdorgat6864 I agree, not the best well strung theory with that, and maybe I should've worded it better. It could have belonged to whoever shabriri controlled first, then when they moved into Nanaya, they kept the torch with them, and that's not likely without any other hints. It's only based on the fact as far as I can tell[Would need to really dive on item descriptions just incase], nothing mentions her having it outside of its namesake and description, and the portrait suggests she may have been pregnant, which would be something Shabriri would love to get rid of, and her dying because of either complications or heartbreak over her child is within at least the realm possibility. Other than that, prolly one of the less likely theories to be true, just a fun one to speculate.
On my second playthrough and I've noticed something very interesting. Down in the subterranean shunning grounds before you fight the Phantom of Mohg, who is guarding the entrance to the frenzied flame proscription, the water is flowing down the huge drain, but stops short of flowing down to the ground. The water there is placid and not deep at all. In the DLC's Frenzied Forest, there is water bursting through the cliffside but once again stops short of touching the ground. In Elden Ring water is symbolic of death, but it seems that death is scared of meeting the frenzied flame, or that the flame is keeping the water away. Evaporating it.
Midra is my most favorite boss of all time. Love his lore, his build-up, everything. Torrent being scared and the spooky messages on the ground made this MY best experience of Shadow Of The Edtree, Messmer and Bayle very close behind.
The reason for torrent being scared made no sense other than to make you stealth past the lanterns. Terrible game design and apparently now lore wise an empyrean/god level spirit mount can now be “scared”… such BS
@@TheSaladin777because frenzy doesn’t just kill the body it destroys the “soul” (spirit ) of things ,that’s why torrent is scared and you can’t summon ashes if frenzy touches them they are “dead” forever
Three more things I wanted to bring up. The plants that chime and attract the Aged ones, if you look closely, they are a similar asset to the grapes. I believe the idea of "grapes" came from these fruit, not just the similarity of eyeballs to grapes. There may well be a frenzy grape that originally was not an eyeball. Second, if you listen closely to the music from Midras fight, you can hear the same music from the merchants, the same song they play, but quiet and distorted, about halfway thought. It's barely noticeable, and even more difficult to recognize in the fight, but its there. Just an interesting note. Lastly, I want to point out that when you originally approach Midra, and even AFTER dying and coming back.... you can leave, at any time. You never HAVE to kill him. You can go in the room and walk away. He warns you what will happen. You make him turn. You create the Lord of Frenzy. You push him over the edge of his suffering after enduing so long. Its rare we can leave a boss fight, or upon return there is no fog wall. This is one of the few times you are given so bold of a choice to "turn back." I wish Fromsoft would have done more with that decision, and this entire area. Where is my Frenzy Dragon.
Well, as morgot said, we are embolded by the flame of ambition No way i gonna leave a boss alive, especialy one that his call Midra, lord of the frenzy flame
I interpreted the spine torch as being Midra's spine. He, too, is called a feeble or failed Lord, and his spine has been replaced by the sword. So, it's possible his spine was taken by Nanaya and dipped into a frenzied flame or something..
In the trailer I wasn't even sure what Midra was supposed to be, I thought he'd be some Aspect Of The Crucible monk or something. The reveal that he was a frenzied lord was AMAZING and so genius.
I agree. After all, a crown is warranted with strength. Those who become lords of Frenzied require so much suffering that the strong is not naturally going to become Lord of Frenzied. That's why the three fingers exist: so that a Lord could skip the process of suffering that Midra had to endure.
Alternatively, it only mentions that he was too weak to become a lord in his rememberence, which you get after you kill him, meaning that he was too weak to become a lord BECAUSE you killed him.
It clearly says that "Lord of Frenzied is awesome BUT Midra was too weak to become such a being"... If any lord can be interpretated as an Elden Lord, then one might even argue that the Aging Untouchables are feeding madness to some random Elden Lord and that does not make any sense
I almost think Miquella discovered his idea for the unalloyed needle from the Hornsent. The sword of damnation is made from some sort of gold and is clearly suppressing the flame of frenzy from overtaking Midra. That would also explain why the sword has barbs to prevent it from being removed. There are also the gold objects embedded into the necks of the bodies in front of the manse that are meant to do the same, maybe even preventing those bodies from changing into aging untouchables
Like, can you imagine Torrent carrying someome who he can FEEL is going to cause the apocalypse and he can't do anything about it because he swore to aid you? Poor guy
Considering motherhood is a central theme of the DLC, I'd say the framing of Nanaya as a mother figure is more important than whether she actually is one. Sort of a foil to Arianna in Bloodborne: where Arianna rejected her eldritch spawn, Nanaya is embracing hers. Even if the spine isn't from Nanaya's own child, she's acting as a kind of surrogate to whoever it was.
I find it curious a significant amount of frenzied flame attacks involve grappling. It makes me think that these individuals, scorned and spat upon by the brethren or others, seek someone for comfort, and embrace them. But either due to the frenzied flames affliction itself, or a desire to drag the other person to their level, they harm them. Inflicting frenzy upon them.
concepts of comfort appear surprisingly often in texts around madness. The grapes are called "sweet", death is called "mercy", infecting someone with madness is called a "gift", attacks often involve "embrace". The Outer God genuinely believes that it brings peace to other through their erasure. So it's no wonder that the attacks have this facade of being friendly and comforting, when in fact they are painful and torturous.
You say a significant amount, but isn’t it just the one incantation, the main attack of the Winter Lanterns, and first phase Midra grab, which is arguably just the incantation ?
Something notable is that the Hornsent's armor set has an incredible amount of focus on it. Wearing Hornsent's armor and the +1 Clarifying Horn talisman is probably one of the best ways of mitigating the self inflicted frenzy caused by Midra's Flame, which is very interesting to me
the idea that Nanaya slandered the manse to bring the inquisition just as Sabriri slandered the merchant caravan raised a thought; if Nanaya did coerce the inquisition to the manse and to the hornless Midra, perhaps this was the very origin of the hornsent’s jar-saint practise - having the perceivedly frenzied numen become saints to stave their nihilistic ideology. And as you said, the cycle of persecution only furthers the frenzy.
The Merchant Caravan wasn't "slandered." They actually did worship the frenzy flame, and knew how to summon it, and every merchant knows frenzy spells, and the Lord of Frenzy Flame boss music uses the merchant song as a leitmotif. Maybe Shabriri tricked them into worshiping the frenzy flame or something, but they were definitely guilty.
@@christopherlyndsay8611 indeed that is an issue with this theory, perhaps this can be linked to the “true bliss” associated with blindness mentioned in the lamenter’s items; the jar innards are wearing blindfolds
34:36 this quote will live on as one of the legendary NPC quotes in this game, alongside “togethaaa, we will devouaaaa, the feet GOHDS”, “I am malenia, blade of miquella,” and “foul tarnished”. Among the other amazing quotes in this game, “the depths of your foolishness” is my favorite
A very interesting complaint about the Abyssal Woods I've heard is that a lot of people do not like that there is so little there. It is incredibly contentless, especially compared to other areas that have maps tied to them. But I think that has always been the point. That the Abyssal Woods represent what the Frenzied Flame will eventually lead to. There is literally nothing of note besides a single NPC and a few wandering monstrosities who can not even look at things without afflicting it with some form of pain. The only way you could think that such an environment is better, is if you utterly hate what was there before. And that is exactly what the Frenzied Flame aims for.
I've been saying this exact thing since I first saw complaints about it. There's not going to be a lot there because everything is either dead or mad, and the whole area is forbidden by the denizens of the land its in
You know the Aging Untouchables are truly scaring when your Dog suddenly jumps out of your lap and starts growling/barking at the TV screen during their section of the video. Guess he'll become afflicted as well, will have confirmation once his eyes catch fire 😭💀
I think I get it. With Nanaya in particular, it’s possible the “feeble lord” was her first attempt to create a lord of frenzied flame, which failed, but she still loved that lord. Then after she came to Midra, and learning from her mistakes, realized the more one suffered, the stronger lord they would be, which is why she told Midra to “endure”. In her dying moments, while Midra continues to suffer, she cradles her first love, and her first failed attempt
the 2 fingers and the 3 fingers might represent a split in the greater will. like marika split with radagon as they had conflicting ideas, with marika breaking the elden ring and radagon trying to repair it; like miquella split with st. trina, as they had conflicting ideas, with miquella wanting to become a god and st trina not wanting to. the fingers are used to "hear" and "interpret" the split greater will. the 2 fingers lead to hearing the split part of the greater will related to the tree and order. the 3 fingers lead to hearing the split part of the greater will related to fire and chaos. as the greater will itself has conflicting ideas, the fingers must split in order to "succeed" in some way. they can't succeed without splitting up. like if the 2 sides of the brain sabotaged each other, and only by splitting they can excel. but then they still end up fighing, like marika fought radagon about breaking/fixing the elden ring, like st trina asking you to stop miquella, like the frenzied flame burning the erdtree. (as fire and wood are "opposed")
If you look closer into Nanaya's eyes in the picture, you'll notice that they are unnaturally open and fixed, uncanny valley doesn't even begin to describe it, she is Shabriri and this is the one and only time that you get to look behind the Blindfold
@@TriforceWisdom64 The uncanny valley refers to a tendency in human psychology in which entities or objects very similar to humans, and very dissimilar to humans, cause no discomfort, but as they approach humanity and are still very obviously off, the perceiver is often unnerved. Basically she's freaking op out
@malakarvonstroheim5372 I am staring at a brightened high-res screenshot of the painting, and no, I do not see it. She looks completely normal, unless you consider the little smile not normal. Nothing weird about her eyes.
Chaos in media is frequently related to entropy. Entropy is the slow march to the heat death of the universe, when everying stops and becomes the same, having no energy
It’s interesting how the greatsword is like a brutal version of miquella’s unalloyed gold needle. In its base form it slims down to a needle, and then barbs extend to keep it in the flesh. It holds off the influence of an outer god, but in turn when it is removed/broken, the flare is far worse.
I think Nanaya holding the frenzy torch just shows she had tried this before and her lord was too weak but she kept his spine and voidless head somehow and ran. Nanaya might’ve been the one who brought the inquisitors down all as a plan to torture Midra to ripen because the first lord wasn’t good enough and she needed more suffering and the hornsent cause more suffering than any other race so midra made a fine one. But not as good as tarnished.
Me: (Finds the entrence to the Abyssal woods. The site is ominous and dark, but not really too different when compared to other areas in From Software's titles) Me: "hmm, another swamp" Torrent: (Screams and runs away in fear of something i can't sense) Me: "Oh no..." Miyazaki: "You see, young tarnished, you're not dealing with the average dungeon/level anymore. "
The embracing, cradling, and the act of even seeing the burning embrace of the Three Fingers as a blessing is an analogy for Buddhism and a case for asceticism. The more you coddle a child, the more harm you do to them once they must split away from you. Embracing, reciprocating the same feelings for someone, empathizing with someone's pain; it's a parallel to order and chaos, but also as harmful as cutting them down where they stand. You can only soothe the sick, and relieve those who are suffering. Where there is pleasure, there is suffering. It's a foundational belief in Buddhism of why desire is the root of all suffering. No matter the endeavors, and even the desire to not desire and become enlightened, you'll still be suffering in pursuit of it. There's a level of sadism and masochism in it, as if the suffering can give meaning to the world, and that may be why Shabriri and Nanaya have that slight smile. The power of chaos can rival the order that brought it into being, and that must be so validating to know that all that suffering wasn't for nothing. It's why the sick and meek in Christianity are seen as virtuous and holy, and why the torture of a man affixed to one of the world's worst torture devices is the symbol of the religion.
So according to Buddhism, instead of attempting to obtain worldly desires, or abstaining from worldly desires, worldly desires should be treated as come-and-go concepts? Or take what desires are given, and don’t cling to what doesn’t remain?
@@EldenRingplayer407 I'm very critical of buddhism and think it's a major cope, so I'm probably not the best place to ask. Basically abstaining from wanting anything is the best way to acheive enlightenment. That's asceticism, and there's variance to how convicted people are to it. Some people just need to get away from their vices, and turn to it while others are already good at dealing with suffering. What enlightenment is in the first place is beyond me, but it's practiced to prevent yourself from falling into a cycle of desiring. When you feel suffering or pain, you're supposed to isolate it from who you are. Basically listen to pain akin to hearing a fire alarm, and in doing so, you're able to avoid giving in to desire and think rationally about what to do about the fire alarm. Sometimes the fire alarm is wrong, and there is no fire, so you go straight to the source and turn it off. Other times it's right, but making the decision that yields the most pleasure isn't going to put out the fire; akin to just abandoning the building. That's the goal anyway. Often times when you're in retreats practicing buddhism, you're explicitly harming yourself to get better at dealing with suffering. Fasting, stimulus deprivation, long meditative sessions sitting in one place, physical labor, etc. Obviously you can't get rid of desire, and even desiring to not desire is a desire in it of itself, but it's just a way to practice turning suffering into an effective motivation instead of a destructive one. To explicitly answer the question, desires are often something you should second and triple guess, and avoiding them usually means avoiding unceccessary suffering.
I never realized that the winter lantern flies were actually corrupted eyeballs. Also if you walk around the outside of the mense you can see scorch marks at the top of the windows. Another thing, If you're having trouble getting around the aging untouchables use the black knife torso piece, the concealing veil, and shattershard arrows to lure them away from you.
Isn't it possible that the torch is actually from Midra himself? The intro of the boss fight always gave me the impression that the spikes of the weapon torturing Midra were kinda replacing his spine and ribcage, even holding him together. It's possible that the Inquisitors removed his spine to prevent his head from turning into frenzied flame, which Frenzied Lords all have. As a result, maybe the spine sparked a (non-sentient) flame and Midra kept his human head, but was pieced back together with something intending to torture him for his heresy? If so, Nanaya kept it close because she did truly care for Midra and his suffering.
Everything about the frenzied flame adds so much to the story, it's by far the most interesting out of the outer gods meddling in the lands between, visually stunning, unknowingly horrific, even choosing the Frenzy Ending and getting that extra scene of being hunted down by a former friend, it's such good writing.
27:18 i mean given that we learn via Hyetta accepting the frenzied flame "melts" your eyes out of their sockets, blindfolds seem like a bit more of a necessity than a choice. I say "melts" because while its true many frenzied enemies are missing their eyes, the eyes we feed her throughout her quest are notably unmelted. They are, however, soft like grapes and easily removed. Perhaps the blindfolds are a way to prevent your eyeballs from simply burning out of your head, and by extension a way to not completely give in to frenzy. All 4 frenzy-affected NPCs with human models, Hyetta, Shabriri, Vyke, and now this guy, all keep their eyes covered. They all have some level of control over the frenzied flame, where all other enemies stand nearly completely still in agony until provoked. Furthermore, the only NPC involved in the frenzied flame quest that doesnt have a facial covering is also the only one with no deeper connection to it and no control over it - Edgar the Revenger. I also saw someone else suggest that blindfold has less to do with madness and more with "blind fate" in general, in which case it would fit that the only characters who could somewhat tame frenzy would have to show that symbol of faith. Edit: 25:27 and look at that, the spirits within the manse wear blindfolds. If we believe that the manse was unharmed by the frenzied flame before the inquisition came along, this would corroborate my theory. 43:47 And it seems like Nanaya also likes to keep her eyes veiled. Not fully covered, but she seemed to be operating undercover. Of course there are also the Nomadic Merchants, who seem to have a much healthier relationship with the frenzied flame and have managed to go without blindfolds, but their eyes are still pretty clearly fucked. I have no clue what's going on with them.
The fact that Hyetta’s eyes are eventually "melted" after embracing the Frenzied Flame does suggest that Frenzy has a direct, destructive effect on eyesight. The idea that blindfolds could act as a barrier, preventing this process, would explain why characters like Hyetta, Shabriri, Vyke, and even Nanaya keep their eyes covered. They maintain a semblance of control over Frenzy, keeping its influence at bay-at least temporarily-by shielding their vision. The correlation between uncovered eyes and a lack of control, as seen in enemies consumed by Frenzy, highlights how surrendering to the Frenzied Flame can obliterate reason and agency, leading to pure agony and mindless destruction. Edgar the Revenger's lack of any facial covering adds an interesting point to your theory. He doesn’t wear a blindfold, and as you mentioned, he lacks any deeper connection or control over Frenzy, instead acting as a violent, vengeful character. His uncontrolled rage, which is distinct from the madness brought on by the Frenzied Flame, contrasts sharply with the more deliberate, faith-driven submission to Frenzy seen in characters like Hyetta and Vyke. Your point about the spirits within Midra’s manse wearing blindfolds also strengthens the idea that blindfolds represent not just faith, but a tool for managing the effects of Frenzy. If the manse’s inhabitants used blindfolds to protect themselves from Frenzy before the inquisition arrived, it suggests that they were aware of Frenzy’s power and were attempting to study it without falling into total madness. Their blindfolds may have been symbolic of their faith in controlling Frenzy, as well as a literal means of self-preservation. Nanaya’s veiled eyes, while not fully covered, fit well into this framework. Her subtle approach and veiled gaze could symbolize her awareness of Frenzy’s power, as well as her ability to operate within its influence without succumbing fully. She’s keeping Frenzy at arm’s length, manipulating it for her own ends without fully committing to it-at least not until the right moment. Her control is different from Hyetta’s, perhaps more calculated, which aligns with her manipulative and ambitious character. The Nomadic Merchants are another fascinating case. Their relationship with the Frenzied Flame appears to be more stable, but still marked by suffering. Their eyes, damaged but uncovered, suggest that they’ve managed to coexist with Frenzy, but at a cost. This might be because they’ve accepted Frenzy’s influence but without the same ambitions or goals as other characters tied to the flame. They seem resigned to their fate rather than trying to harness Frenzy's power, which might explain why they can live with it but still bear the physical scars. The merchants' connection to Frenzy remains one of the game's deeper mysteries, and their nomadic lifestyle might have given them some unique insight or resilience that others lack. This leads to an intriguing question about the relationship between control and surrender in Elden Ring. Do you think that characters like Hyetta, Vyke, and Nanaya could ever fully tame the Frenzied Flame, or is it an inevitable descent into madness no matter how much control they think they have? And how do you interpret the merchants’ seemingly unique ability to coexist with Frenzy without completely losing themselves to it?
I'd like to theorize that when the people of Midra's manse including midra himself first discovered the winter lantern they tried to study frenzy in finding a way to cure it or destroy it And eventually they came to a standstill or midra came to a realization and learned the more the studied the more they followed frenzy's path so he reached out to the hornsent and they sent the inquisitors to "help" and when they arrived it was too late They weren't there to help in studies or prevention they were there to destroy any and all frenzy And in the study of frenzy when Midra's realization kicked in he might've realized his path was of that of a lord of frenzied flame and the reason he failed to become one was because of his "death" sealment or torture with the blade of damnation preventing the transformation I don't believe he knew Nanaya was possessed at all but I do think he realized something about frenzy and when he reached out for help he was met with a extermination force
The notion that the people of Midra’s manse, including Midra himself, initially sought to study the Frenzied Flame in an attempt to cure or destroy it makes perfect sense. Frenzy is a force of chaos and madness in the world of Elden Ring, and the idea that scholars, particularly those in positions of nobility or authority, would attempt to understand or contain it is entirely plausible. This aligns with the typical themes of hubris that often accompany the study of forbidden or dangerous knowledge in the game’s world. The turning point in your theory-where Midra and the others realize that the more they study Frenzy, the more they are drawn into it-feels like a key moment. This parallels how characters in Elden Ring (and broader Souls lore) are often consumed by the very forces they attempt to control or conquer. Midra’s realization that studying Frenzy was leading him down the path of becoming a Lord of Frenzied Flame could be seen as a moment of horrifying clarity, where he understands that knowledge of Frenzy doesn’t just corrupt-it transforms. His decision to reach out to the Hornsent for help adds another layer of tragedy. Believing he could still be saved, Midra might have seen the inquisitors as a last hope to contain or destroy the madness that was taking hold. However, when the inquisitors arrived, they weren’t there to assist in the research-they were a cleansing force, bent on destroying all traces of Frenzy. This extermination force likely saw the entire manse as corrupted beyond redemption, with Midra’s plea for help coming too late. The inquisitors would be merciless in their duty, seeing no difference between those infected by Frenzy and those who sought to understand it. Midra’s eventual sealment, possibly through the use of the Blade of Damnation, preventing his transformation into the Lord of Frenzy, becomes a grim twist. This echoes how many in Elden Ring are denied the full realization of their ambitions, often through death or imprisonment. The blade itself could represent both a physical and spiritual lock, a tool to bind Midra's potential as a Lord of Frenzied Flame while also keeping the Frenzied Flame from consuming the world at that moment. Nanaya’s role in this becomes even more intriguing. You suggest Midra may not have realized she was possessed, which makes sense given how manipulation and deceit are core themes. Nanaya might have been subtly guiding Midra toward his transformation, encouraging him to study Frenzy further, while remaining hidden in her true intent. The fact that Midra reached out for help only to trigger his doom could speak to Nanaya’s influence-possibly she engineered his desperation, knowing that once the inquisitors arrived, the conflict would seal Midra’s fate and pave the way for another opportunity for the Frenzied Flame. The theory of Midra unknowingly setting in motion his own destruction, while Nanaya secretly manipulated events from the shadows, creates a dark, tragic arc for his character. His earnest pursuit of knowledge, his realization of the corruption it brought, and his failed attempt at redemption all align beautifully with the melancholic tone of Elden Ring.
16:14 these were my thoughts exactly. Also don’t you find it curious how we find the impenetrable thorns sorcery in the LOS? The spell bears a striking resemblance to the impenetrable thorns we find sealing the Erdtree. The implication of this is just mind blowing
I think its possible that nanaya is against the frenzied flame -- her former lover was afflicted with the flame and died (thus becoming the torch), so she swore to stop any and all manifestations of the flame. When she says 'endure,' she might mean 'don't succumb to the temptation to despair and give in to the flame.'
In the discussion chamber, if you look on the floor you can see large scorch marks with what seems to be fingerprint marks in it. Meaning midra must have taken in the 3 fingers
It could be that the 'distant land' is actually the Land of Reeds where Nanaya may have come from. If we go by the theory of Nanaya being Shabriri, it would also shed light on why Yura's body was the one taken as host by Shabriri. Perhaps it's due to Yura being a familiar body who hailed from the same lands?
I don't remember the lore of Shabriri well but I know that Nanaya couldn't be Shabriri, since he existed as a completely different character living out different events that led to him becoming who he is today. That leads me to my personal theory - Nanaya earned Midra's full trust, right? So then it's doubtful she was possessed by Shabriri at the time. But something must've happened to her afterward, after she gains his trust, that she died and Shabriri immediately took over without anyone being able to tell something was off - until it was too late.
As I posted already in another lore comment: I guess, the "long time ago.. In a distant land" is a reference to the lands between someone like Vyke, or maybe it is even Vyke (the one imprisoned we fight is not the version which is already touched by frenzy... This version invades us near the tower of frenzy... So maybe... when we are fighting Vyke, we akways fight our future self wo took this path of destruction (keep in mind we do always a little time travel to farum azula / we travel to a space where time no longer exists... It's possible we are always afterwards in a different dimension when the tree burns.. I mean.. Vyke is on the cover of the game
Shabriri said that in order for Tarnished saves Melina from dying by fire, Tarnished must embrace the three fingers and sacrifice himself (then later become Lord of Frenzied Flame). Same goes with Midra, prolly he just wanted to save Nanaya and sacrifice himself instead.
44:21 also interesting is the idiom “carrying a torch” for someone means to secretly be in love with them. Nanaya may be literally and figuratively holding a torch for a former lord-to-be while cultivating Midra
I think the torch itself is also an important symbol. Human spine with Frenzied Flame on top of it. To Shabriri (Nanaya) Frenzied Lords are just tools to burn everything down. Tarnished and Midra are torches which need to be fueled with anguish and suffering before they are ready to set the world ablaze. If Nanaya came to the manor and shared the knowledge about the Frenzied Flame it would also make sense that she is the one who told Hornsent about forbidden studies in the manor. She just prepared the ground so that Midra's flame can eventually ripen.
Considering the similarities between the golden arcs of the inquisition and the rune arc marika is crucified on I think it's also worth noting the visual similarity between the spiral greatsword embedded in midras stomach/chest and the elden ring showing in radagon's chest/stomach during his fight. Marika/radagon isn't just crucified on the arc of the elden ring, like with midra it impales them from within as well.
One theory I like about Frenzy is that it is a type of control that the Greater Will uses. It plays a role similar to Hades in Horizon Zero Dawn. After Frenzy burns the world and returns everything to one, to this Void, Greater Will can once more create a new order. Any empyrion who becomes a god and creates a new order is still following Greater Will, so long as the Elden Ring is used in some form. So Frenzy exists to simply end everything and reset the world so that Greater Will can try again to create a more perfect world after erasing all previous mistakes.
Notice that inquisitions in From Soft games have a ha it of going poorly. In Bloodborne, the church sent inquisitors to Castle Cainhurst, and while that was on the face of it a success because they slaughtered the people, the y ultimately failed because the Vileblood queen couldn't be killed. Meanwhile, in Elden Ring, they sent inquisitors to the manor and seem to have succeeded inside, but everyone outside has lost their minds. Neat.
I've heard too the theory that the spine is Midra's because he has stitches on his back, but that it can't be true because he seems to be able to stand up right. I think it still can be possible because when he is impaled, the sword can act as support and when the flame of frenzy substitutes his head, his body could be dangling from it. There is an animation where he divebombs you that looks like his body just ragdolls pulled behind the Flame of Frenzy.
Great imagery though. If someone losses everything they either collapse (losing their spine) or find something else to support them. For him frenzy provides him the support to stand.
I'd like to mention the parallelism between the frenzy, Shabriri, and Nanaya; and the thark souls age of dark, Manus, and his daughters (Nashandra , Elana, Nadalia and Alsanna). I'd love Vaati to do a video mixing the DarkSouls and the EldenRing meta-narrative.
They weren't really his daughters. They were pieces of him. He split apart after being defeated by the Chosen Undead. Those pieces reformed as Nashandra, Elana, Nadalia and Alsanna
What's funny is that our tarnished is controlled by the ten fingers. Our fingers! Unless, of course, you are missing a few fingers, then it's being controlled by however many fingers you have. Or you're using some random mind controller
9:45 I'd like to theorize that perhaps when you look at it, the 2 fingers are the 2nd and 4th fingers on the hand, the Even numbers. Whereas the 3 fingers are 1, 3, and 5, the Odd ones out. Their distinct poses point to this possibility.
I was just gonna mentioned that... I speculate that even the selection of the index and ring finger could be part of the lore. Seems like the world created by 2 fingers seems to assign everything a role by its discretion and its not a choice. It's quite straightforward. Whereas fingers of frenzy have various purposes on our hands. Thumbs being involved in three fingers might also hint that the world shaped by 2 fingers lacks the evolution or rather the purpose of live.
I think the 3 fingers represent the thumb, index and middle fingers while the 2 fingers are moreso the middle and index or even middle and ring fingers. I dont think theyre fingers on one hand but 2
I personally felt that the Two fingers were the middle and Ring fingers, but I can totally see the argument for "2 and 4" I feel like no matter what, it makes sense for the Two Fingers to at LEAST contain the "Ring Finger" for the name of nothing else.
What if the feeble lord was a past lover of Nanaya who died upon becoming a frenzied lord, and she was trying to recreate that in Midra. It could explain why she seemingly knows how one might become the lord of frenzy, because she's witnessed it before. Also, her holding the torch while the manse burned around her, might've been a final comfort, her dying belief that her beloved lord would be born again through Midra's suffering. Just some food for thought. Loved the video, by the way!
My interpretation of the high priest hat is that the lightless abyss is what was left behind after the frienzied flame was separated from the one great. This could also explain why it's called the abyssal woods, the abyss represents the frienzied flame that was removed. Also, the duality between destruction and creation, light and dark, is what creates life in this world, so it would explain why astel is the natural born of the void; whilst humans formed from the stardust left by the great rupture, astel was born directly of it.
I just got to the Abyssal Woods and something that stood out to me is that the only animals not affected by madness seem to be the owls. I do not know if their is any significance to that but, it seems odd considering the setting.
I think the "The barbs are reminiscent of the Golden Order" line on the Greatsword isn't to say that the Golden Order influenced the Hornsent, but the opposite. We know that many customs of the Golden Order grew out of Marika's customs, The braid of hair left at Marika's Village is reminiscent of Grace for example, the usage of pots carried on in The Lands Between despite being a hornsent custom (Though they seem to be burial implements as opposed to trying to make a saint), and we know that the crucible itself formed an early foundation for the Golden Order. I think the barbs of the Greatsword of Damnation evoke Golden Order Imagery because Marika was influenced by and adapted the inquisition and aspects of the Hornsent holy orders into the Golden Order. An overarching theme in the dlc is melding and merging (literally and metaphorically) as well as showing that Marika had very humble origins. She too grew up with a culture and a society and customs and beliefs, and those beliefs went on the shape her eventual order.
The fact that he bolsters the stake of Marika argument by saying there are no stakes of Marika in Raya Lucaria is ridiculous - there are no stakes of Marika in any legacy dungeon area. The stakes being present in the woods is very obviously not lore significant - it's an open area of Winter Lanterns where you can't summon Torrent. It's very obviously only for the sake of being forgiving in a gameplay aspect. Also, we already know that Marika's crusade absorbed other cultures, or allowed cultures it couldn't absorb to persist. So, what do we really think is more likely: that Marika, a shaman, who were commonly tortured and seen as less-then by the Hornsent, influenced the Hornsent culture? Or that Marika absorbed the Hornsent culture into her own Golden Order?
