There is absolutely a place for timers, they were called challenge mode dungeons and their initial iteration was near perfect. It was a great stage for competitive pve content that didnt bottleneck players into feeling like that they had to do it. Then they started designing the game around it.
How is the game desgiend around M+? you cant even get above heroic track gear which is rewarded from mindless delves (Outside of 1 piece a week of gambling @ the vault)
@@hamptoneee The upgrade system funnels you into it ultimately. If you want to realistically upgrade your gear past a certain point, you essentially have to push keys. While you can technically convert crest upwards, the conversion rate is so incredibly steep that it may as well not exist. My overall issue with this new upgrade system is that now everybody gets the worst version of a piece of gear. It serves no real purpose outside of extending the gear grind arbitrarily. So while many see it as "oh i can make my gear better" in actuality, you're just making the item as good as it was supposed to be initially.
I have said this since Legion: Timers in multiplayer content will ALWAYS create a toxic rush environment where the speed with which you can do things becomes the only obsession. At the cost of everything else. The timer needs to go, it's 6 years overdue!
No timer is the reason I enjoy delves so much. Can just think through how you want to do it. I’d rather focus on people staying alive and doing mechanics, rather than a timer.
I do it highlights it at all. Delves are for casuals. Mythic plus Is made harder for the people that want that challenge. I understood that was the point of delves. To offer something to lesser skilled players or players who don’t want to put effort in
Putting M+ on a timer guaranteed that WOW's long-standing optimization issues get speed-ran. Within hours of introduction in _Legion_ you had Best Or Benched lists on Specs and Races, all of which were on stage for all to see during the M+ Race events, and we all know about Dead Keys due to that week's Affixes. Yeeting the timer kills the primary pressure pushing that behavior. You still get people forming metas, but that comes down to Risk-v-Reward in terms of Return On Investment vs. Time Spent + Difficulty. From yeeting the timer you can also make all Affixes optional (make harder, get more rewards in return; base item level set by the key, amount set by Affixes, so Risk-v-Reward is a non-trivial decision). There's more that needs to be done, but that should be sufficient to get things going.
yep, as a Feral main i had entire expansions where nobody would allow me into Mythic+ regardless of gear, skill, experience. much fun sitting out a whole expansion unless i want to roll a class i dont really want to play.
Speed-running also exists without timers. And removing the timer wouldn't remove that mentality. It would also add a lot of desperation to just run your head against the wall without learning. Use voice coms and stop complaining about timers.
Bellular's take on this is interesting, but I think removing the timer entirely is the NOT the correct choice. I do agree, maybe remove the timer for keys 5 and below, hit 6 and you now have a timer. It gives that environment for trial and error, gives time to foster a learning environment and it gives a space for the non-competitive players to get a taste of hard content. If players can get past a 5, then start putting pressure on them in some way, it doesn't have to be a timer. Death counts could be a limiter instead of a timer. Removing the timer means the challenge of having bigger trash pulls and coordinated CC/Stun rotations, knowing when to use CD's or not goes out the window. The removal of the timer changes M+ to 5 man raids, where trash is a chore and bosses are challenging. With the timer, the entire dungeon is a challenge! Without the timer, you could spend 2 hours in a single key, waiting for Heroism/Bloodlust for every boss pull. Should they get the same rewards as someone who did it in a quarter of the time? The reward system of M+ is where I think needs the most rework. Remove timers until a certain level. Remove the dropping of the key value down if a timer isn't met, leave it up to the player to choose if they want to drop the key value down or not. That alone opens up a community that will make queue's like "+5 NE, No Time Run". Add in a death counter to the mix and give additional rewards if you complete the run with 0 deaths in a more relaxed time. IE: Keep 18min for +3, 25min for +2, 30min for +1, but add in a 45min no death/lessThan5death +1 option. Give people the chance to slow down a bit. Then people would queue for "+10 CoT, No Death run". Removing the timer takes so much away from the game mode it isn't funny. It doesn't magically "fix" M+. It "fixes" it for people who aren't interested in a faster pace style of gameplay. Why do some PvE players not like PvP? Its fast paced. To remove the timer because its a game mode that doesn't fit with your style is crazy. Just like they did with raiding, adding flexible raid sizes, more difficulties like LFR and Mythic, they need to do something similar to M+'s. M+ has become something separate from dungeons that needs to be tuned and balanced entirely differently now.
@T.R.75 that was me during Wrath, I know it's not M+, but still shitty. Feral druid losing all loot to other classes...everyone at 5600 gear score while I was 4700...but I was still top dps. No one would take me other than guild runs (when I was able to join)
@@BelligerentWoW "Should they get the same rewards as someone who did it in a quarter of the time?" Yes, they should. The player who did it in a quarter of the time now has more time to progress through higher keys, meaning that in those 2 hours they will be getting 4x the rewards. Not all rewards need to come from built in gameplay systems, the time saved is reward enough. Removing the timer doesn't remove the incentive to go fast, higher skilled players will still go fast because they value the challenge and the time saved. Timers create a toxic environment, it isn't worth the damage it does to the social environment. Players will still go through dungeons fast, they've been doing it in every game since MMOs were invented.
I hate timers. I will pull a boss 50, 60, 100 times in Elden Ring or Sekiro until I win. But I find Stardew Valley frustrating because there is a constant ticking clock (both daily and seasons). My brain is just not wired for time limits. I need to fail to win. Timers make failure the stopping point. End of run. I LIVED in heroics for most of the game's early life. I ground out reputation to get into dungeons in BC, tanked cata heroics in blues and greens, slammed through gold proving grounds, etc. My warlock had green fire before it was nerfed and I enjoy the addition of the mage tower. I am not afraid of challenge. I will only ever do mythic+ in tiny doses and almost never in pugs. Take the timer out and we might have a conversation.
I don’t completely agree here because a game like Elden Ring doesn’t translate to WoW. Nobody wants to spend 50 attempts pulling a boss in a dungeon because we will just leave. One boss is merely 1/4th of the dungeon and if it takes 50+ pulls, you probably aren’t prepared to be in that key range.
The Stardew thing is so true. At least in Stardew the timer is *supposed* to be a kind of limiter to prevent you from going overboard and planting 5000 crops and having to water them every day and hating your life, and as a framework for npcs to have a daily routine, the artificial ticking anxiety clock is kind of an unfortunate side effect. In M+ the timer solely is a punishment for mistakes and nothing else. Removing the timer cold turkey might not be the solution, infinite scaling hp/damage with no time limit sounds like it could get miserable, but they could definitely do better.
@@aidancampbell5644 What’s your point? It’s not 2005 anymore, we have class guides, videos, discords, sims and add-ons that trivialize the game. Wiping on any boss a significant amount of times is demoralizing when CE raiding isn’t your full-time job. Mythic+ isn’t “prog” content in the same way raiding is. If you are wiping more than once on a dungeon boss, your party isn’t prepared for that key level. These are bosses we kill a dozens upon dozens of times in a season, you should be playing these dungeons with DBM which tells you exactly what to do.
Timers should be on for a very VERY hard mode dungeons that provides cool transmog rewards. Remove timers for the lower 99% of players and remove key depletion. I am confident that hundreds of thousands of people will give WoW a try again if those two are implemented.
It’s the carrot v stick problem. They nailed the timer aspect way the hell back in Wrath, with old Strat. The timer was not mandatory for success, it was a *bonus* objective for a *bonus* reward. Pushing keys shouldn’t depend on a timer. Finishing under par should award bonus loot.
"I think the timer is foundationally lazy design" THANK YOU! I've been saying this since legion! The game already incentivizes you to want to go fast (more runs per hour), the faster you run the dungeon the more loot you get, the more rating you get, the faster you can fill your vault and move on to other things. The timer kills the ability to actually *learn* the fights. M0 bosses die before they can even do some of their mechanics, and even if they do, they hit so weak that they can often be ignored. As soon as you add the timer, it eliminates the opportunity to do multiple pulls on the same boss to learn the fight in a real environment.
I have been saying the timer is the problem since they first introduced m+ It just stresses everyone out and makes people hate each other when they fail
I might be an outlier, but the reason I love Delves is fundamentally anti MMO. I love them because I can solo them, which means I can stop mid run to engage family or household responsibilities without F'ing over 4 other people. I really wish Delves pushed into mythic gear and difficulty.
i've never been a fan of timed runs, no matter the game. sure it's fun for some people, but there's also a massive amount of people who it is not fun for. there has to be a better system than a timer. someone else in these comments suggested something along the lines of "a timer should come into play once you're fully geared" and honestly that makes sense. but if you're tying a timer to the gear progression cycle, that just feels bad. unless you've got a pretty solid team of good players with a regular schedule, then you're likely not having issues. but a lot of people are. honestly though, i wont touch it with a barge pole. no interest in timers or the stress coupled with them, i'm too old for that shit. i've got my own timer, real life, there's only so many hours i can commit to playing, long gone are the days of my late twenties and early thirties where i could raid 4 nights a week, level toons and still have time left over to piss about in whatever was the current contents capital city. previously, I'd spent many a night wiping relentlessly on bosses until everyone got it, we'd make progress, but some nights, my god it was painful. but then we did have a literal OAP that came raiding with us, he usually weighed us down, but we were never a serious progression guild, think the best we ever did was a server 2nd on XT-002 in Ulduar.
well timmer are okey if they are 1 used sparsely. two there is a way to gain more time. Like let say a raid have the player enter it. go through the whole thing. gets to the end kill the boss. set down the explosives or what have you.... there is 3 option really long (no timer), long (timer but you have ample of time), short (better leg it and know what your doing). run back throught the whole dungeon (that now is full of mobs and all that). get to what was the start kill the new boss. leave. if you ran it whit no timer no extra credit. do the raid whit the long timer some extra credit reward. do it on short and succeed additional credits.... maybe or thats just a self challenge. note on the credits let say just doing the first half give you 500 Point. Doing the second half(back to the start) another 500 Points. doing it whit long timmer gives you exept for the 1000 you get for completing it at all let say 50 credits. doing it on short gives you 100 extra. its a reward but its not like do it at all back and forth 100 credit. do it on short 200 credit total (100% extra thats bad as that really push peaple to do the short timer one even if they are not really ready for it).
Yup this doesn’t always work, I was on an alt and was doing some lower keys spamming grim batol and had back to back runs with tanks that did not know they have to run away from the second boss during molten mace or they get one shot. I typed out the bosses mechs In chat but they were not getting it. People just leave after 2 wipes which I kind understand but god damn sad to see runs die like that.
I wonder if changing from a system of negaetive reinforcement to one with positive reinforcement (without changing too many of the current rules) would work. To sketch it out a bit: No depletion on time out before a certain level (11 or 12 and beyond I wager), but instead every dungeon with three bonus objectives. 1. A timer. 2. Kill x amount of trash (the percentage bar). 3. no deaths. Getting through gives a +1, every bonus objective gives an additional +1. At certain breakpoints you could mandate to fulfill 1, later 2 of those bonus objectives but let the group decide which ones. It would open up a multitude of strategies for everyone that's not into pushing keys hard and it gives you ways of saving a bad run if needed. It would also mitigate some of the issues I have seen more than once with old dungeons being rotated into M+, but being overtuned massively due to their age and optimistic expectations on how quick an average group can go; one of the examples being Temple of the Jade Serpent in DF season 1. This new system would also give devs more headroom to experiment with new mechanics and modifiers without wrecking a season outright potentially, as you take a lot of pressure out even if a mechanic tends to overshoot its target.
There is a spectrum of players with different skill level. Generaly I see two major issues: 1. the game wont lead players with lower skill level to get better. Majority of casts wont kill you no matter what in lower keys. Why would you press something, what would lead you to even think about that. Then you get in higher keys and even with one death, people just leaves because they rather go try another groups than "waste" time with you. 2. the game does not help you to find a other same minded/skilled people for M+. Majority of M+ playerbase just pugs and then suffers from leavers and shittalk. Nobody reads forum, your chances there are low. Communities do not work (atleast for me they did not). And people in guilds are mostly raiding and CBA scheduled M+ content. My take on Timer. +10 keys are "maximum reward" keys. These (and lower) should be off timer. +11 and higher should have timer. the reason is that if you are skilled player and want to challenge yourself, you will hardly be challenged in anything lower than M+10 (included). If you are challenged in M+10 and lower... well.. it is probably because: 1. you lack skill -> you need to practice 2. you lack gear -> you need to get it. 3. you want to take it easy 4. you want to just have fun with your friends and CBA "hard" content. If you have timer in anything lower than +10, it encourage people to leave mid run. So it will be shit experience for all for kind of players. (and probably many more with their situations).
yea i also think the content you do for gearing should be as accessible as possible, as everyone wants gear because gear makes everything better currently. I think stopping gearing at an 8 worked really well in DF, but if we´d move portals to a 11 i´m up for trying having 10s timerfree for the chore keys.
This is probably the best idea i have heard so far. But to be realistic one must think about what can go wrong too. I fear (even tho i'm not sure) that this could lead to the disappear of low keys, since without timer they Will practically stop depleting, leading to an hard time gearing alts. I still do not know how to fix this
@@valeriodestefano3784 maybe some low keys disapear, but only high end players who are skilled enough to bypass low keys. Tho i think they skip low keys anyway.
Back of napkin idea: split M+ keys into two parts, first part is the key itself, and second part is some consumable that makes it a timed run. Possibly make it so the only way to upgrade the key is to do it within time + extra loot or something. That way, people could just stick the key in and do hard dungeons without the pressure of a timer, or if they wanted to progress they could add the mats to do a timed run. I'd also make it like delves, where you could select lower level difficulties from a menu if you've completed harder difficulties. That would remove the "fear" of bricking keys.
I actually wouldn’t mind timers if all they determined was key upgrade level and you didn’t lose time for deaths. I think it should be seen a bonus for rewards for doing it exceedingly fast, instead of taking rewards away because you took too long.
Thank you! I keep saying this over and over that the timer is the MAIN problem with M+ content, and I keep getting weirdo M+ andys simping for it in the replies defending it with nonsensical arguments. If it wasn't for the stupid timer putting pressure on people, it would be far better. If you have to AFK for any reason during the run, you may as well call the run over and deplete the key. Absurd bad design.
Timer should not effect loot. It should only effect your position on the ladder. That's it! Still gives the sweaty players a goal to achieve and the 99.99% rest of players something to actually run M+ for. That frikking simple!
They should make when you are putting in key that you have two options, m+ and m+ rated, totally same, only difference is that non rated is without timer and maybe some tutorial options. Unrated should give the same gear and crest so you can have stress free progress. Then when u learn all the things you can go compete in timed runs where u get rating. That would be comparable to raiding and speed runs.
M+ is long overdue for a clean-up. I'd even go as far as to say: Everyone should get 1 piece for any run. Stop tying every reward possible to the timer. Remove the timer. Make keys a menu just like the dungeon finder, but only for premades. You beat a level for a dungeon, boom, you have it unlocked in that menu. Dungeon clear = +2 for that dungeon in the menu. Super simple, more rewards, less stress, less pug heat, win for everyone except those that'll complain about it "becoming casual" or whatever aka The Loud Few. If there's no timer, and you know this group can do it in a timely manner even if the timer would have failed, and you have a piece garanteed, people will stick around.
This type of socialist design and loot no matter what style is just not going to work. People shouldn't be pugging high end content period. It's a mmo. Find friends. Learn. Grow.
@@bigbellyobie6204 It's not a bad idea really. Next time you want to tell someone what will or won't work then maybe you should try explaining the ins and outs of why as well. Side note.. there was no reason to bring your political buzzword bullshit into this, it's a video game, be better or at least keep that ignorance where it belongs.
Well done for finally pointing out the toxic mess mythic + always has been. This content should be outside of the wow reward world. Removing the mythic plus scum from the main game would be great. Putting them all in their own side game would bring back so many players to the main game.
When I returned the game last year and learned about the M+ system, I wondered, "Whose idea was it to slap a WOW sticker on their box of Oops All Diablo Berries?"
There's no reason not to have the timer only come into play after the level of gear you can earn caps out. They can keep the fun of reaching for higher & faster runs, while not breaking the game for normal players.
Exactly. Capping the difficulty at a robust value but before the game becomes one comp or bust and then competing on time for set pieces and mount at the end of season is way healthier than the current path where if you don't play a meta spec you will get benched at a certain point.
The timer wouldn't be so bad if it could be paused, whether by the group leader or automatically for certain circumstances. Those circumstances could be things such as: - A player leaves the group - A player is removed from the group for poor performance or toxicity - A player has a connection drop Of course, the other way to make learning better, especially from a m+ point of view is to make HC dungeons actually mean something other than just being a zerg run for vault slots or currency for upgrades. First of all, start by putting m+ affixes in them but in a lighter, more learner friendly way. Less damage, more time on timers, more time for dispels etc and for goodness sake, make the UI capable of tracking interrupts. HC dungeons are not timed but do require some co-ordination to complete. They should be somewhat difficult, but not to the point people can't figure it out. Make the ilbl requirement slightly below LFR... 550 or something. Make the ilvl it drops... LFR level so... 564 or something.... Secondly, take out m0 dungeons. They render HC dungeons pointless. m+ dungeons should start at a m1 and go from there. Thirdly, keys should never be bricked because people leave a group or are removed for poor performance or toxicity. They should only drop a level if a dungeon isn't timed after killing the last boss. Also, why can't people hold multiple keys? Also, why can't people trade keys they don't like at a vendor for key's they do like for currency? Also, why can't, in m+, the entire loot table be spread across all dungeons so, if people want a trinket, they can try for it in any dungeon? You aren't doing m+ for lore or storytelling, you are there for loot. So why not make it so people can farm a dungeon they enjoy for their trinket? Also, why, after spending potentially 2-3-4 hrs trying to finish a m+ dungeon is it possible for your reward at the end of that potential time to be.... 50g. That's insulting frankly..... There's so many things you could do to m+ to make it so much better and Blizz won't do any of it.
One of the most fun moments I had in Warcraft was when me and my two guild leaders at the time. Three man a plus seven boss. I believe it was Odin. We were not geared properly. We did not hit the timer. The two other DPS we pugged dropped out. But the three of us stayed there and eventually did it. That's what I want from mythic. Plus I want not a timer Rush. I want a this is difficult but if you really master the mechanics you can do it.
I wouldn't be opposed to removing the timer, but I will say that the issue is that once the timer depletes the KEY LEVEL GOES DOWN. I think a good easy change they could make is that your key stays at your level unless YOU bring it down, this would take away a lot of the aggravation that people have when it comes to bricking 'their key'. So have the par time, then have the timer tick up once it's done to see how over the part time you did. The timer can increase the levels like it currently does. this would probably solve some of the speedrun and toxicity mentality because once the key depletes, or MIGHT deplete, people leave because there isn't any benefit.
I agree with this, but there will be abuse of this mechanic. Die first pack, get out reset, not optimal DPS first pack/boss, get out kick the player and replace. It should have something to stop this behavior, like if you Deplete a key without finishing it, you get a 30 mins timer or something like that.
@@termintot4645 I'm fine with that completely actually, I have been a supporter of a debuff if you leave a key in progress without "universal abandonment"
Reminds me of this test in the USA that we have called the ACT/SAT - it's a bunch of trivially easy problems to solve and they make them seem difficult but putting a timer on it. If a time limit isn't what's making it challenging it frees you to make it a true challenge.
You put in your key. You select if you want it timed or not. Not timed has the exact same rewards that there are now. A completed timed run gets you double the crests and 1 extra piece of loot. The people who like the challenge and the sense of accomplishment from timing a key (that's why I like M+ personally) can have it. Other folks who just want a challenge of beating the dungeon on a higher difficulty but don't mind that it might take an hour trying to beat it with their friends or a pug; can have it.
Can you elaborate? This is basically how it is now. There are "Completion" groups that don't care about time and get less loot and crests. So you're saying just boost loot in general?
Agreed. I've been saying since Legion that the timer on M+ was lazy design and removed so much scope for doing interesting and meaningful mechanics in dungeons. And the anxiety it creates in players, fear of getting it wrong, of being hounded and attacked is immense. Sure a certain amount of that will be there regardless, but if a few deaths or a wipe isn't the be all and end all of whether a dungeon run is a success then people will be so much more tolerant of learning and so much less afraid of making mistakes. I know first hand a dozen people that want to heal or tank(maybe not with their main but with alts in M+), but the pressure of the timer having to zerg the dungeon is just too much for them to take on top of the additional challenge those roles already create.
Easier solve would be to NOT force players to go to external sources to know how to play the game. The in game adventure guide needs to be way more thorough. The more a player knows how to play the game the more invested they'll be.
I think the timer is one of the worst addition to WoW. People have a intrinsic motivation to go fast. The faster you go the more loot you have in a given time frame. The timer only adds stress and ruins the learning progression. There is no room to try out things and learn. And I don't agree with people who say just go do the dungeon on mythic instead of m+. I want to know my limits on a +6 or +10, not on a +0. Furthermore I agree with less mechanics, more interesting mechanics and most of all mechanics that most screw you if you fail. I hate mechanics that wipe a group if one person fails. The standard dungeon mechanics should mainly focus on person effort with a penalty mainly for you if you fail and some could have a smaller penalty for the group. I don't mind the affix to be a group effort and a group penalty. So far I like the current affixes way better than the old affixes. I do think the affixes should get harder the higher you get with more coordination needed. It should still be that +10 is doable with a pug, but that above +10 the focus is more and more on coordination. My current idea is that +0 up to +10 should be about knowing learning the mechanics in combination with pumping damage. +11 and higher should be about coordination, knowing the mechanics perfectly and being able to still pump out tremendous dps.
This is all why delves have replaced M+ for me for gearing outside of heroic raids as its no run spending 30 mins plus as a dps finding a group for the stress of playing to a timer and group dispanding after 2 wipes. Not to mention now if you didnt get a super high rating in the first few weeks due to irl getting in the way pf play time good luck getting any groups so you have to list your own low key as solo DPS and spend forever making a group. To then flip a coin on it disbanding
people want to pick up a game and play it...they dont want to have to research an abundance of material in order to play a game....people would rather trial and error content in order to learn said content. The timer goes against gaming fundamentally and should be reserved for keys past the point of gearing.
This season, mythic+ is significantly harder and less tolerant of mistakes. The -15 second penalty for every death (usual is -5s) is extremely punishing for players still learning to play better. The top 1% of mythic+ players don’t have a problem with this, but you can see how this makes M+ even more inaccessible to the other 99%. Most players also don’t have access to other players who are friends doing high key M+ regularly - they have no alternative aside from random PUG’s, where they experience even more toxicity and pressure. Much of M+ is learning proper tricks/methods that you learn from playing with highly experienced players who are kind enough to teach. When you join a PUG, you run into players who lack this knowledge, dooming the group to failure.
This 100%, especially about the inaccessibility and toxicity. I'm a busy professional who knows he doesn't know the fights, but who can't find an onramp to learning them. People here will tell me that lower-level keys are what teach you the fights, but the problem is that almost nothing in the lower-level keys will kill me. I can bumble through them and not learn anything -- believe me, I've mastered that part. But if I PUG anything even midlevel, it's just go-go-go with no time to think or type (or learn!). I have grouped with tanks who left me behind when I literally could not keep up with them, as a priest trying to chase down a demon hunter. I can continue pugging -- feeling futile, probably looking like an idiot, and definitely being subjected to verbal abuse -- or I can spend my precious leisure time on all the open world content. Hmm, tough choice. Then I hear comments like in this video: "It's rude to be bad at WOW." This is unmoored from any common definition of "rude", in my opinion. What's rude is to berate someone who clearly doesn't know what you know, instead of (gasp) teaching it to them. Heaven forbid that your MMO might require interpersonal skills.
I think people asked for the timer to go for a long time and they never budged, so affixes ended up being the backup. Now that affixes are mostly gone, and it's just a heavy scaling, removing the timer would basically turn it into heroic plus. I'm not saying I'm against that, but I think the people who thrive in the toxic environment will see that as a bridge too far. There will still be an issue even without the timer. You'll still sometimes get a basically AFK teammate who you want to kick or quit over. I just did a +6 Dawnbreaker with a mage who couldn't match the tank on damage. The thing I'd like to see gone immediately is the chain casting mobs. You stop a cast and a new cast starts instantly on some of these mobs. Not only does this make it way harder to maneuver the mobs around, but some of these will target a dps and a few casts at once on one guy is a death.
I see so many people talk about how removing the timer would kill the competition in M+ but I have yet to see 1 person give a GOOD reason why forcing a timer on everyone when Blizz could just as easily make a timer to just track fastest times boom competition still there measure your epeen by your fastest clears of high keys while people who dont like the stress can have fun too best of both worlds.
I think the biggest problem with the timer is everyone expects to beat it. I've done keys with friends where we know we won't finish in time and we just aim to learn the fights that we either aren't executing well enough or our gear makes way harder than they should be. Just removing the down-rank of the key if you complete, and giving a "bonus" based on how well you did seems like a better starting place. That and just straight drop Myth track gear for, say, 12+. The raid still gets the items with more interesting effects and art, people doing content scaled with myth gear may as well get myth gear.
I'm sure they see the activity stats. Capping delve gear at 8 was dumb and making it supremely better than the equivalent difficulty dungeon (probably a standard Mythic) was a hard cap on the motivation for my guild to keep playing. The raids (well, end game in general) became "Don't stand here. - The Game". Solo PVP ques at 20+ minutes was the icing on the cake and frankly hilarious with factions dying. (Guild full of regular people unwilling to play something that isn't fun)
I think they should remove increased death timers at 7. Make 8s for gilded crests your baseline keys for timing with just 5 second timer for death. Anything below that, add a minute to the timer per level below 8 to alleviates depleted keys, stress and allows wipes to learn. The changes in timer should be highlighted on keystones so players know increased key level with decreased time should imply playing cleaner/better with less deaths and wipes. You get an environment for players to increase learning, your 8s are better defined for the best crests , and 10s are still the increase challenge for portals.
Chorghast was fine until the timer showed up. only way to fix this mess is for Blizz to put more effort into making endgame actually fun and less toxic. wont happen, cuz extra effort costs money. the majority of people are on timers everyday irl. its tiresome, the anxiety it creates isnt fun. people play games to get away from that crap. also, bring the player not the spec right? cept you know damn well that the least performing specs get left out of Mythic+ all the time. as a Feral main i went entire xpacs struggling to get into groups cuz, Feral. how much fun is that?
I said timers bad a long time ago... Everyone laughed at me and told me I was wrong. Now this.....welcome to the party, it's about damn time and I'm sorry we ate everything at the buffet table.
Remember when M+ was originally Challenge mode dungeons from MOP and you got a whole transmog for completing it. Now all you get is some gold, upgrade currency, and maybe some loot that’s probably useless depending on the key level or if its BIS.
I don't know how I feel about it entirely. Certainly if you have done a +4, 6, 8, version of the dungeon you should know the mechanics and pulls fairly well. At that point if you cannot make the timer in a +10 I don't see the issue honestly. You do get a chance to learn by repeating the dungeon again perhaps on a lower difficulty. However, I think the main issue here comes from the nature of most M+ being PUGs, where groups are inconsistent and the roster changes from one run to the next. Your lessons in this case are more individual, and won't apply or carry over for another group. The new tank won't know that the last tank already tried that terrible pull which ended catastrophically. Remove the timers and I think you would see very similar behavior witnessed by many in PUG raids. Several wipes, some bickering about strats, kick out the low DPS or struggling healer, the tank leaves after 45 mins of head vs. wall. This is nearly inevitable with an "infinitely" scaling difficulty system, eventually you will hit a wall, fail, and toxic behavior will ensue. You couldn't time a +10, now the timer is removed and you find yourself in a +12. The healer can't keep the group alive, the dps is too low, or the tank is too squishy to reasonably complete the dungeon. You're back at square one. Comparing M+ to raiding is a bit tenuous. Most peoples experience with raiding, generally has a far more static roster, allowing for group learning and lessons which can carry over each week, and be applied more consistently. Everyone is on the same page due to the fact that they have a shared experience. If they removed the timers I would be okay with it. No problem. I just don't think it would solve the underlying issues presented by transient grouping and inevitable walls of difficulty. They could simply remove the scaling nature of mythic dungeons and follow the same concept as raids. Story Mode (follower dungeon), LFR (Dundeon Finder), Normal, Heroic, and Mythic. No more keys or M+. Increase the overall difficulty of dungeons particularly Mythic difficulty. This provides a capstone moment to progression in dungeons. But at this point they have seeded such a massive M+ community I think it would be too controversial.
the main reason i dont like modern wow is because the timer gets rid of everything that a mmo is supposed to be, no time for talking, strategizing, helping people through a fight, gotta be fully locked in for 30 mins. It also incentivizes people to inv the "meta" which doesnt even matter in the keys most people are doing.
I totally agree! Why are we draining interpersonal interactions out of our MMO? Especially when its heyday was the exemplar that all other MMOs want(ed) to be.
Remove the timer, but don’t. Remove the time limit. All players should be able to do all M+ content and get all credit, keystone master etc with zero time limits. Instead of timer counting down, make it count up. And lets the tryhards compete on a leaderboard. The timer can be there just irrelevant to most of us. Or- would be ok with them keeping the timer if it’s at the second tier for mythic crests and higher. Meaning I should be able to farm the lowest tier of m+ for mythic crests with no stress. Also. The key system is annoying. There’s no reason for you to get a random key, if people want to run something specific they just go to group finder, bypassing any sense of randomness or rarity, therefore I find it to be pointless. Instead, you get one key that tracks your seasonal progress. On that specific key it keeps your highest successful run. Or it makes you progress through them sequentially. Starting with normal, heroic and m0. So if you beat a +8, now you can do a +9. Everyone needs to have at least that unlock or higher to so the key. Now everyone who wants to do a +9 has at least been through the process and is on the same page. Kinda seems like I described delves. Which is funny because I find delves to be garbage. But, the ability to access them and how you get there is a much better system to me personally than some random stupid key. These fix the garbage people who leave and brick peoples keys as it’s just an earned level. Just leave and go back in. And also, **** people who do that, 24 hour no instance content if you screw up someone else’s run.
As a normally competitive player I've been against removing the timer but I think I'm coming around to it when it comes to gearing levels. At this point with how high the difficulty is scaled I feel like there either needs to be no punishment for missing a gearing key timer or we need the gear to be adjusted to stop at 8s.
Its simple. If you finish the dungeon after the time you get the same level key. If someone leaves you can reset with same key. If you finish it with time left it's plus 1 and 2 and so on by time. Solved it.
@@sts3118 Huh? That's exactly the system we have, just with depletion removed (imo it should be removed in all cases, not just finishing after timer). Which is a sound idea Get rid of double negative reinforcement on failure. Let the only punishment be not timing. Remove the possibility that random strangers can just decide for your key to go backwards to the level you already cleared. Keeps the timer for people that are happy with the concept of it, like me and thousands of others.
They should have a version that lets you do a +10 or whatever level you can get up to and do it without a timer. Just let you do a dungeon and learn. Give gear very slightly better than m0, and let it give currencies and stuff.
I see loads of people create groups who have no rating whatsoever, or only a little rating. And they're advertising a +7 or +8 key. And this may be alts but in many cases you clearly see they are inexperienced or simply suck at it. They expect a boost of some sort. I, like probably many people, started by doing all of the dungeons in normal mode, heroic mode. Then I entered every M+ on +2 difficulty. Completed them. I learned the trash. I do not agree completely with your assessment that the timer is the issue. It is people not being prepared to invest some time in actually learning the dungeon, and improve on their errors. Trial and error? Sure, but learn in low keys.
I still think they should make m+ like the pit in D4 or D3 greater rifts. That sounds sick. But also maybe a system that lets you build your own key affixes, bc I’m sure not everyone would like that.
Honestly I believe challengers peril is half the problem with the timers currently. It has made any deaths super punishing which in turn pushed people to new levels of toxic rage.
There’s nothing wrong with having timers. Loot still drops even if you don’t time. Sometimes I finish runs when we don’t time and sometimes I leave when it’s obvious we won’t time. Mythic+ is much more popular than raiding and those who don’t like it don’t have to do it. Mythic 0 is in a much better place now so go learn the mechanics there. When some moron doesn’t know mechanics in a fight, it’s their fault for queueing into a +6. I cannot pug a raid without it taking most of a day, but why would I complain about that? I’m not a weekly raider.
I must respectfully disagree, it is not rude to feel that, last xpac, my goals were to learn to get good enough to do a +10 and a heroic raid, it is just a casual player and game goals which I choose because I don't have to time, energy, or effort to excel any further, it is honesty that informs how good I'm willing to become due to my playstyle and personal constraints. And that is a learning process for me that only requires getting up to +10 and heroic raid, but I should have a+0 thru a +10 from last xpac to practice to get good enough, just like lfr to normal teaches me how to get good enough for heroic. Now, I have to start on what was a +10 with no chance to learn the fights slowly to understand the mechanics. Oh, and somehow, fix the loot so it's worth all the work and feasts, flaskes, potions, cauldrons, et al. Do something about the timers also please. If you're going to level alts in the +0-+10's, play nice in the sandbox, maybe you've got the skill to get on through and know it already, but some of us are actually progressing.
And no raider would dare go for a 20-30 minute boss encounter. Raiding is all about trial and error. I wont be trying to do a 20 minute boss several times over, that's absurd. It really isn't fair to call mythic+ a longer single encounter.
Trial and Error in WoW means you hold all the other members of your PUG on trial and if they can't carry you and wipe then you drop group and try again with a different PUG.
Hard disagree. M+ is a speedrunning game mode. It' about attaining perfect execution through research, experimenting, and repetition. The timer is important, and depletes are important. They could be scaling from low keys to higher ones though, I could see that.
The timer is fine depleting the key is not. I actually enjoy routing and doing different pulls for higher dificulties to beat the time because it forces a lvl of coordination that results in peak gameplay! Depleting just throws you in a non ending cycle of doing the same low keys to reach the one higher you want to progress after hours of sorting through grps that are mostly griefing by randomly dying not knowing a mechanic completely or plainly doing lowe dps or extreme overhealing with notiming. Remove depletes let ppl actually prog their keys
The timers shouldn't be there. All it does it help further make M+ toxic which is already a cestpool of toxicity. If they really want a timer, add a Challenge Mode option that adds the timer and special rewards (going back to challenge mode armor, or even adding more goodies doing so would be nice).
I think we need some sort of timer to not make it too slow and make the mete be: wait for bloodlust on each boss + cooldowns on each big pull. Maybe add 20% or so more time on each dungeon and i think its good.
@@sts3118 That would be such a massive waste of time. Even if there is no timer, people still don't want to spend all day in a dungeon, particularly if they have to do several more in a row. Groups that would do that would be rather few and far between, and even then if they really want to do that, let them do so.
@@sts3118 People keep making this same excuse for the timer. "Oh if the timer is removed everyone will go slower blah blah blah". Yet they seem to forget the 2 weeks of launch when we were doing M0 before M+ came out. Everyone was speed running M0 like it was the Olympics. Nobody has the time to go slow in this game anymore, most of the player base is 30+. Nobody is gonna wait on Lust or CDs because we have so much to do in-game and irl than waste time on waiting for CDs.
@@jethrodark2372 maybe not when farming etc. But when looking to push a key up without timer, people are gonna wait for cooldowns if it means higher reward score
Seems that easiest way to please both sides is just to make depleted keys not downgrade, remove death timer penalty, and to have io scale linearly with time rather than failing give like 20, and winning by 1sec giving 80. Where am I wrong with this? Serious question
In the end they have to please people who will do M+ long term, not the casuals who will drop it after a month... Timer is good, puts pressure and differentiates M+ from raid, however something needs to be done for the environment to be more pug friendly, maybe less interrupts or something like that.
if they didnt have the timer there would be no reason for dps.... u would take all tanks/heals..... or they would have to give each boss/trash pack its own enrage timer OR infinitely spawning overwhelming adds..... timer makes more sense... its not hard to do dungeons... if there was no timer everyone could do 12 just avoid everything and only do shit if ur super safe... timer makes u do it with fluidity in real reasonable time
Mythic+ was never supposed to be pugged. It was supposed to be pre-made. Blizzard should figure out how to incentivise players to play with the same group in mythic+
I already hesitate to do 8s with pugs because I know how bad the player quality is in those levels. Removing a timer just allows more of them into 10s which will make it a more miserable experience. You shouldn't be able to push your key if you can't interrupt or do acceptable dps. I think one possible solution would be don't let depleted keys go down a level. At least that way people can keep practicing at the level they deserve to be in until they get better instead of having to climb back up every time they fail. Also if you don't like my statement, I'm sorry your dps sucks or that you can't interrupt.
Working on my second almost entirely pugged KSH character, and I have to agree that the timers just aren't adding anything but needless stress. It's lazy design for sure. Adding 85 mechanics to every boss and trash pack is also another point of contention for me, especially since the casting-stops change they made for this expansion. It harkens back to their attempts to force players to slow down with Verdant strikes to prevent kiting. For some reason, they are just insistent on creating punishments for playing ways they don't like, instead of finding ways to incentivize us to play in whatever way they are thinking. The whole concept of failure and key depletion, even at the lowest rankings of these keys, just breeds the issues we're starting to see pour out into other content. I understand that punishments have their place, but not completing a key already has the inherent punishment of wasted time and no gear/crests. Adding an untimed component that gives less than half the crests, when Myth+ isn't rewarding to do in the first place (doesn't even try to compensate gold for repair/consume costs, only 2 people get loot out of the 5) makes me less inclined to keep doing it every season. I love the content, it's exactly what I normally enjoy in a game, but it's not worth killing myself and my stress levels to do something that isn't even rewarding me for doing it, outside of 3 (most likely useless) vault slots every 7 days. We now also have people talking on the forums and Reddit about how often people are being kicked from just normal levelling content and timewalking dungeons over anything that slows a run. The constant emphasis on "speed" in dungeons has conditioned people to believe this is the only way to play the game. It's not at all conducive to a new player's experience, much less existing players just trying to relax, and just scares people away from learning to play as a concept. Add in that the timer is basically meaningless on the content that it should be most relevant in (10's/11's), as current player damage numbers far exceed what 10's require as low as 600 ilvl, and that dungeons are currently tuned to kill in 2 hits if you aren't healed/potion AND Defensive?... The only thing that I have seen that kills a +10 key is bad gameplay decisions somewhere along the line. I've done an 8 in 585 PVP gear on my Rogue, and just ran 10's on an evoker today with 604-605 ilvl and zero optimization, and had basically no issues with living through the keys. It's just so disorienting to watch, coming from pushing upwards of 23's previously. We used to fail or time keys by the skin of our teeth with 1 death total. DPS doing extremely well and proper pulls made or broke the key, just as much as healing output and good tank CDs. Now, as long as everyone stays off the floor below a +11? The key will almost guaranteed be timed as long as people are hitting some semblance of their correct rotation.
I don’t think it’s the timer that’s the problem as much as the pitiful reward depletion for not timing. It’s also a community-created problem partly where people are impatient. I like having the timer there, it pushes me to improve as a player but key depletion and the pitiful amount of crests you get for going over time only promotes disbanding, which makes it hard to ever learn.
The one single time I did a decently high key back in dragonflight (It was my own key btw, not anyone elses) we didn't time it and one guy just started flaming the absolute hell out of me afterwards, ever since then I don't mess with mythics, I just play solo. Its not worth the headache.
I did over 110 runs this season. Almost completely pugged to 2600. In lower keys you definitely get toxicity, as people demonstrate the dunning kruger concept and flame eachother for irrelevant stuff to deflect blame. In higher keys, toxicity is completely absent. Never saw someone cursing or calling names on someone else. Leavers exist, and are common which sucks for the keyholder still, but I just move on, consider that run as practice and do the next key.
Keep the timer, get rid of depleted key mechanic. If you fail the timer you fail the timer. Run it back and go again. Got leavers, implement loss of rating for leavers or something like it, you don’t time it you loose rating. Do it for one season and see what happens, what the worst that can happen? Or like what you guys say, timer starts at 8+ or 10+ or 12-15+ 🤷♂️
Suggestion for a revamp: When running M+ there's no timer and you only get one piece of loot. When you insert the Keystone you get a prompt to either run it as normal or with a timer. If you run it with a Timer you get two pieces of loot with the addendum that if the timer fails you get none. This makes no practical difference since people leave M+ if the timer fails anyway. Kiss/Curse in one go. People can go at their own pace for a lesser reward or they can go at breakneck pace for a greater reward with a consequence for failing. Everyone wins.
Nope, no compromise. if there is an option for a timer, it will be forced by the same toxic loser content creators who run the meta now. You can't give them an inch. You can't take their feedback. You can't design the game for them. You need to design the game for the majority, and push timer-minded players to unsub.
If you make the timer optional but still make the rewards better or even just give the players an opportunity for one more roll on loot then the timer will be mandatory. Nobody will run it without the timer knowing you can double your chances for loot trying to push the timer. Then if you get absolutely nothing for failing the timer then things will get even more toxic.
@@mr_yoru5834 They will. The brain is an electric network and as such is subject to the rule of least resistance. The easiest way to do anything will always will most often always be chosen. There's also the factor that people have obligations and less time. People affected by those conditions will never risk potentially wasting an opportunity that can be done with less stress in 45 minutes for something with immense stress that takes 30 minutes to complete if they only have an hour.
@@DarkScreamGames not only is it completely untrue, but you wanting to actively "force" the people you don't like to stop playing the game means you are the type of person you claim to hate.
I cannot tell you how much I hate timers. It adds stress and challenge but it's unfun stress and challenge. This is why I love delves. I don't care if I have to die 10 times to a pack but having a stupid timer forces a degenerate game play. I remember the days of taking hours to carve through UBRS, LBRS, and BRD.
The timer has been the one thing, more than any other, that makes me not enjoy M+. I can deal with hard, but making it not only quite hard, but also put a fairly rough timer before ruining it for the group. I can do progression raiding, where you wipe a bunch of times as people in your group get their stuff together and learned. Because every failure, we just get back up, and try again. M+ isn't built around "trying again" because you run out of time, you drop your key and you don't get to try the same thing again. I do appreciate M0 this time around because it *is* harder and doesn't have the time limit. Shame delves absolutely wreck all other forms of gearing, because even fairly low delves drop better gear than M0. And its enough that a lot of my guild seems to mostly just do their occasional delves and weekly quests when queable, and is otherwise mostly dead. Having a hard time getting enough people around at one time to want to do any kind of raiding.
Its the depletion that bugs me. Let us reset the timer and resync at the beginning. Ive been in groups where we worked well together but we just desynced because of a bad pull and we can't regroove because the timer is looking us in yhe eye.
