You can do heroic raiding with nothing but delves and GV gear, you're not missing out on anything meaningful. I'm 8/8 H without touching a single M+ dungeon this entire season btw, literally 0 rating.
You just dislike doing the it’s bitty necessary research on your class and the dungeons. That is all that’s stopping people from having a good time in m+.
@@inq2935 sure buddy keep up with your "bootstrap" mentality with that reductive and poor argument and ignore every single valid poind made against the current M+ situation. I by the way am a M+ player and this season has been a slog to go through for a million reasons from overtuned dungeons, to the porogression in crests being bad. Many HAVE the research on their class and dungeons and just dont see doing M+ as being worth their time anymore. A person can be skilled at something and still hate doing it. Its not something new
I'm so grateful that they created the delves system. I quit playing back in Legion when M+ was introduced. It gave me anxiety, real anxiety. It's the whole timed issue. Just like many players, I enjoy doing difficult content. But having to do it under a certain time was really nerve wrecking and made the game stressful for me. I started playing the start of this expansion and the delves are so much fun. Even though sometimes it take a lot of time and I may die here and there it's so much fun and challenging. Over the weekend I was able to solo an 8, just pulling each mob one by one and using the tools my pally has to control the fights. It's not always about the loot, loot is a great carrot for sure, but the excitement I felt just finishing that 8 solo was unbelievable and I can't wait to try a 9 eventually. Delves solo I don't have to worry about someone asking why I'm not doing xyz damage and judging my gameplay. I like playing the way I play and delves made it so that I'm not a hinderance to the "serious" players that want to damage meter and meta everything. Thank you Blizz! Delves are awesome!
there is zero stress if you are half decent and geared fairly apropriate lol,its all in your head,the reason the timer exists is o players dont do degenerate things like wait for hero every pull,also the timer is a good indication if you are even ready to take it on,if you dont time keys,you either made MASSIVE mistakes that you need to improve on,or it means your gear isnt good enough for that specific key level,ill tell you why you REALLY dont like m+,its hard for baddies,mistakes are punished much harder than in raids,and if you die the burden on the group is to much compared to even mythic raids
I have been exactly the same with this, Delves have been amazing and I have enjoyed every delve i have done regardless of the tier. I refuse to do M+ content because like you said as well: Real anxiety and the whole timed thing is not my cup of tea, let alone if 4 other people on my ass as well during the whole ride. Ignore any others such as Deenman23, Clowns you never take serious :P
31:15 Blizzard is renown for making a stupid system that leaves a bad taste in people's mouths after. Overwatch is a perfect example. Great game, but their system would just create neurotic people. Some of my friends got extremely toxic, and the minute they got out of their stupid system? They wouldn't just be depressive all the time anymore. Even, in this comment section, a lot of us are talking about the venom injected into us by systems like M+. Did we really sign up to a video game for that?
Besides DPS q’s mythic plus is amazing right now if you actually put in the work and research to get better at the game. Pugging is hard? Good think it’s an MMO and there’s such thing as guilds. Literally at the end of a dungeon if someone is playing decent just add their battle net. It’s that simple then you’ll never have to pug again
It would be better. Games need risk to be fun. The problem with m+ is not the deplete system, it's that only 1 person depletes in a group and not everyone, and it's also how bad the gearing system is.
@@Xerus35 I don't think keys should ever deplete unless you quit, if you cleared it, even without timing it, you should get to keep the key level. It shows that you can finish that level, but maybe not enough dps/mechanics/route is what got you. Try again. Depleting is just pointless.
M+ needs to drop that -1 key level on fail. It adds insult to injury, because you don't just need to retry the key level you were at. You need to complete a whole dungeon to even have another attempt at the key level you just failed. If punishment for failure is so large players will apply strict vetting in group finder. That's why it's so hard to get into groups unless you're comically overgeared and overscored. Raiding doesn't have that problem, you wipe on a boss and just go agane. I've never had issues getting into raid groups in PUG's, but always plenty in M+.
As a non-M+er, I never understood why one is penalized by failure by having a key be degraded. The punishment is already applied, the waste of the player's time and not succeeding in clearing the current level you're at, haivng to retry. Maybe its some kind of timegating mechanism, having to replenish the key back to where it was before the failed run?
@@CosmicCleric I think originally it made a bit more sense, as you couldn't manually downgrade a key. Nowadays, well... it's a relic that needs to go, imo.
No, it's necessary, and you would hate it WAY MORE if there wasn't depletion. If keys don't deplete M+ instantly turns into the MDI:, you do a huge semi-impossible first pull, fail it, do it again, until you get it right. Only when you do, do you continue the key. This would be great for people like me in the top 5% with a static team because we could practice MDI level first pulls without going into a tournament real, and devastating to every single pug in existence. The depletion also adds tension, making people actually try to time the key. Without it, even if the pugs don't get into that MDI-type meta, their keys will now all be like completion +10s that take 90 minutes because people have no incentive to get good enough to time it.
@@alewis514 no one would run lower keys if everyone just had whatever key level they desired. You would be complaining even more that you can’t get score cuz there would be no groups for you to join, and for what little groups there would be it would compound what you’re complaining about further. If you can’t get into groups it’s because you haven’t shown to the group that it’s a good bet that you’re a good player, so basically you can’t get into groups because you’re comically undergeared and underscored compared to everyone else applying.
> That's why it's so hard to get into groups unless you're comically overgeared and overscored That is patently false. You don't need to be either. Just be at a reasonable level for the content you're asking to get invited to. This is the first season I seriously participated in M+. I took up tanking, and I pugged my way to keystone hero in 3 weeks. Got it a few hrs ago. Ofc I had no chance to get into +10 grps, when all I had timed so far was +7s. But when I had +9 timed in every dungeon, I started getting +10 invites. My Ilvl stayed at 616 all the way from +8 to my first timed +10 The content is hard, so of course people only invite others that have experience that is reasonably comparable to the key level. Want to get into hard content? Follow the progression and learn. Another big reason why people don't get invites is of course because they do not want to learn tanking or healing. Anytime I list my own +8-10 key I get dozens upon dozens of dps applicants.
It's just straight up hard for me to go back to Mythic after experiencing delves.. with Delves, There is virtually no waiting, can group up with friends with literally any combination of roles, can pause whenever you want, no toxic crap... man Delves just have so many positives that I dont even care about getting top ilvl for my gear anymore.
Good, thats the point everyone else seems to be missing. Not caring about ilvl. All these people saying the deserve the same rewards as a mythic raider or +15 player are some of the most degenerate things ive read. People just need to accept ilvl literally doesnt matter if you dont do the content where it matters. They already add so much into the game to give free gear in literally every activity and people still arent satisfied.
I agree, blizz did great with delves, i can't go back to m+, i did a M0 db for the weekly, shoulda been ez, the group kept landing on other groups and running them to the mini bosses and wiping us. I was trying to be nice cus i figured they were new and db can be tricky so i wasn't gonna start pointing fingers. They started flaming me as the tank "maybe if u didn't pull 20 mobs" i was like wtf? How can u be so bad that u can't even accurately assign blame for the extra pulls?
People do the content that takes the least effort for the biggest reward. It's human nature. Obviously less people bother with doing low m+ when you get similar or even better gear in delves when the delves take almost zero effort or skill.
@@BragginRitesTV People leaving early and breaking your keys because they don't like something about how you're doing it is pretty toxic and definitely not fixed by turning off chat.
well in a setting where you get ressurected over and over and you essentially cant die , time is the only constraint they can put or else everybody wins
@@Nobodyfromnowhere42 People aren't going to stick around for the 5th wipe on a mythic+ boss. That's all the time constraints you really need when the real reward is the Mythic track gear from the vault that you qualify for regardless of the time you completed the key in.
The timer was introduced because people can get extreme that, per pull, they want to have all buffs to push to ridiculous keys. Yes this includes bloodlust, having a key go up to 1-2 hours. No I'm not excusing it, I'm just remembering the reasoning. I guess the option to "leave if they're doing that" was unacceptable. Now we're leaving on One wipe anyway.
No it wasn't. It was a good idea, that's why m+ became so popular. If you don't want timed content then the other 90% of the game is for you. People like putting their skills, their builds, their gear and team coordination to the test. That's not a bad idea, that's you projecting.
I'll be blunt, I intensely dislike dungeon running in general, and M+ in specific, for a single reason: The focus on clearing content as quickly as possible. I HATE that WoW has embraced the stupidity that is people shouting "faster faster faster" in dungeons as a primary focus of dungeons. As an older, and slower, player, I simply cannot keep up. Full stop. The Delves allow me to move at the speed I prefer without affecting anyone else, thus I can take my time. I WILL NOT be funneled into M+, period.
I justr eturned last week after trying Dragon flight when it released. I lvl'd my characters to 70 and stopped playing. I no longer wanted to do any kind of dungeons because of the horror stories and just decided to pass. I was extremely active from tbc to lich king and enjoyed it much more then. Running with guildies and friends, but none of them play any longer. Even now, I'm just leveling and may stop after I max my characters again.
What is the point to playing then? Raid logging? If not raiding becuase you cbf getting 10+ people together, why do you bother playing an mmo? Collecting digital outfits?
Alright... so do your Delves for the gear that is literally useless. That's fine. But stop shit-talking content you just don't like? It is SO weird that you do that. Creeps me out man
You also realise that we people who enjoy M+, most of us have run every other dungeon in the game before we do m+. We ran every difficulty of them, normal, heroic, then mythic 0, all without timers. And we only dip our toes in m+ to do it better. Faster. Harder. Because it's fun for us. So you're old and slow... we're not.
There needs to be a M+ Follower Dungeon that has a toggle for tutorial. It explains what interrupts are (and who is responsible for them). What mechanics mean and how to handle them. Explanation of dispels and spell steals etc. Imagine being thrown into Witcher 3 or Elden Ring with no explanation other than how to move, hit and roll… Ps the current follower dungeon is not the place for it because you can basically afk it so you won’t be punished while learning.
It’s more like getting thrown into a university level trigonometry class as a 5th grader. You know what numbers are but have no idea how to use them to achieve the solution.
That's what heroic should be. Heroics should be "you need to know CC, interrupts, avoidance mechanics, etc... or else you'll die". Mythic+ is just taking heroic to an increasingly competitive level.
B...but you LITTERALY get thrown to Dark Souls 1-3 (MUCH harder, and better games than ER btw.) with litteraly nothing but the "how to move", and "parry exists, its bound there, we wont say how to use it tho". Just Git Gut FFS!
You say the follower dungeon isn't it because you don't get punished while learning. So you want to punish other players for your incompetence instead of learning the easy way first so you don't run the risk of wasting 4 other people's time? You could make your own groups with the title "LEARNING, come learn with me!" and run some mythic 0's, which are just the same as m+ just without the timer, the affix and the extra damage that each level of key adds. You could do this with low keys as well. People aren't animals (well not everyone), if you're up front about what you want, up front about your level of skill, then you WILL find people in the same place as you, and it honestly won't be that much of a wait either now that it's a new expansion and everything is still relevant. I mean... you see how many videos are being made about this stuff, and how many people are commenting on them (maybe not that many comments on this video in particular but there are thousands of you). You should have learned what interrupts and dispels are, and specifically what your class can deal with, by READING YOUR ABILITIES firstly. Also paid attention to the early game tutorial, or maybe paid attention as you were levelling and unlocking new skills, this comes off as someone that bought a level boost from Blizzard and rushed into the end-game content. Anyway. Who is responsible for interrupts in a pug? ANYONE. It's first come, first serve, and you, like everyone else, can learn over time as you experience it, hopefully at a level of content where it doesn't outright kill you to fail. Usually the DPS should interrupt ASAP, leaving the tank and healer to pick up the slack where needed, just to make sure you don't use several interrupts on the same target. Why DPS first? Because the healer has more overview of the situation and can act as a failsafe, and they're also busy keeping you alive so the more time they have to spare the better (I'm a healer main, this is how you do.) OR, if you want to be fancy about it, someone says "I do first interrupt" if you're talking about specific encounters that will require several interrupts in a row (of which there are only the 2nd boss in Necrotic Wake at the moment) and everyone just follows along this way, but at the point where this is even remotely relevant you won't be asking questions like this because the only place it really happens is at the highest level where the sweatiest nerds try to beat keys they have tried and failed on multiple times, and almost nobody does that without voice communication. The game tells you what you can dispel by covering your nameplates with a special effect. You should learn what they are in particular by hovering over the ability as you are hit by it and read it. Best done in a situation where time isn't of the essence, like *in a follower dungeon* or other easy difficulty, like a mythic 0. (Or just google it) Read the dungeon journal. It details every boss in the game, how the boss is going to act and every ability it is going to cast. The bosses and every other mob in the game cast all their abilities in a specific order that never deviates. WoW gives us players the most information out of any game on the *entire gaming market*. No, and I mean no, other game comes remotely close. Good luck have fun. Yes, you ARE required to learn how some things work, and how certain of your spells interact (or don't interact) by yourself. Your hand will NOT be held for most of it. :)
They shifted the reward structure up several tiers, increased the difficulty of dungeons, kept both fort and tyr, made them both active at the same time on a +10, and made the actual vault gearing keystone the same one you have to do for portals. If they didn't expect there to be a huge drop in engagement then they're fools. Numbers for this first season of M+ for this expac are sliding toward that of the last season of the previous expac, it's the first season of a fresh experience that traditionally brings a lot of players back and it's losing to an actual meme season.
I think too many people forget, M+ was supposed to be the answer to harder dungeons of old. Those dungeons were about skills and cc not rushing to beat a timer.
@@flxs64 They mean like cata heroics w/o nerfs. Hunt trap, polymorph, banish etc. and only play against 1 mob out of a pack of 5. We've done that in classic, and it does not compare to the fun and gameplay of m+
also the take that its "People dont want to play the game" is bullshit, People dont use the stuff because they dont get a chance to practice it, because the idiots put a TIMER on the dungeons, and take away your chance to try agin if you fuck it up. Guess what doesnt do that.. RAIDING, notice how no one is complaining Mythic raiding is to hard. cause you can fucking try it all day until you win. In a souls game if you die, you can just keep face smashing till you win, they dont take away your Melania key cause you died
Guess what doesn't have a timer? EVERY other difficulty of the dungeons. Normal. Heroic. Mythic 0. None of them have a timer. XD Also here's a bloody tip: Make your own bloody groups, and title them "learning! Come learn with me!" BOOM! Solved your problem.
Tell us you have no bloody idea what are you talking abaut without telling us that directly. Every once in a while when Boss is just bullshit we, Mythic raiders complain all the time. Litteraly this tier 5th and 6th Bosses... ok we can say they were overtooned, but tier before. Tindral. Mythic version of this fight was so bullshit everyone and their mother complained. Aslo you can fail and die all you want on lower keys...granted one wipe = deplete on 7-10 keys (when you are "progressng" them, now you can time +11 with like 15 deaths) is absolute bullshit...but its first time in history that happend
Yeah, M+ is hot trash right now. While yes the timer sucks, it'st he fact that u can degrade keys that really sucks. The timer is whatever w/o that issue. Timers should be for better ranking, but it shouldn't affect progress as much as it does. Also, I think they need to UNDO the DF key changes they did, I prefer pushing high keys in the 20s not ...10 or 11..
The key level that Gilded crests drop at is still strange. Carved drop until +4. Then you get Runed which aligns with the next affix being applied to your key, those being tyrannical/fortified. So logically you'd assume the next tier of crest, Gilded, would drop at +7 when the next affix, Challenger's Peril, kicks in. But for some reason they have it higher than +7. So you have to do harder dungeons with an affix that is more punishing than the rest, without being able to upgrade the gear you are getting from a +7 to any level higher than what you could do with Runed crests already. Doesn't make sense to me.
M+ should have been, from the get go, a simple progression system where each dungeon completion just opens the next level, for slightly better rewards. No keys, no affixes and on the dungeon finder. Instead, for a lot of players, it's a hellscape of bricked keys, toxicity, timers, poorly explained mechanics and sometimes hours to find a group that doesn't gatekeep them. People who want to do it with a regular group and no life it at high levels it can still do it, but as it stands now it's just another case of the 0.1% ruining it for everyone else.
I really like your suggestion. I wouldn’t mind an affix to keep a little differentiation between weeks. But the unlock and go for next level without keys and count I like. Oh, and I really like the dungeon finder instead of wasting time to get into a party and getting a full party. This would also make it easier to promote certain roles as they do now with the heroic dungeon queue.
You lost me (and everyone else with a brain) at "on dungeon finder". I get where are you comming from. You are DPS...a bad one...and dont want to wait hour for a key cuz noone wants you...but guess what in LFG you would still wait an hour, cuz ratios dont change, but players who (unlike you) can play the game would aslo be punished with long wait time instead of instant invites we have now. In other words. Lol, that's just a skill issue, git gut
I see three issues with the state of M+ this season (2.7k Rio as of writing this): 1. The introduction of Delves and their gear rewards basically invalidated M+2 to M+6. You could argue it even invalidates M+7 because maps drop hero track gear and so does the vault. So the only significant upgrade you get from M+ (over doing Delves) is starting at M+8 for the highest crests (used to be +9s). I've recently seen a lot of players, who I suspect were Delve players trying to get crests in +8s and +9s (I was helping to farm a trinket for a friend there) and they had absolutely no idea about boss mechanics. Like the first boss of SoB, a WL didn't knew he had to kite the boss into the bombs. No, he did not just not find the bombs, he just stood still "face tanking" the boss and died. This is an issue because people jump straight from Delves into "higher" keys and absolutely butcher them because they don't know anything about the dungeons. Normals and Heroics don't teach you anything, M0s arguably also don't with champion Delve gear and anything from +2 to +6 is useless anyways because Delves are easier, faster and give you the same reward. 2. Dungeons are littered with bugs and some affixes have ridiculous overlaps with certain boss mechanics. I'm pretty sure Blizzard didn't properly test their affixes in combination with all bosses. 3. This is a combination of two things. The GV being the only source for myth track gear (for M+ only players/ppl who don't raid) and the huge ilvl gap between hero track gear and myth track gear. Back in DF the ilvl gap wasn't that big so myth track gear was really nice to have but not having it didn't completely butcher your competitiveness in M+. Now we have a 13ilvl gap, require A LOT of crests to upgrade items (about 13 weeks worth of crest caps) and the only source for myth track items still is ... the vault. Depending on your luck the vault can absolutely murder your competitiveness in M+. One of my friends got 3 vaults in a row with basically nothing of use. One time he flat out took the coins (in the second week of the season lmao) and 2 times he just took a piece of myth gear with bad stats in order to be able to upgrade his hero track gear for free (just for valorstones). This is a dumb mechanic. Due to this he's not only missing out on damage and survivability but he's also having a harder time to get invited into PuGs because his ilvl simply sucks compared to others who were more lucky. If Blizzard wants to keep this ilvl gap and gearing progression then the GV needs some kind of fail safe/bad luck protection because in it's current form, it is horrendous. I get that Blizzard wants to shoehorn more players into Mythic Raiding but I think the concept of raiding is archaic. Yes, you can hunt me for this statement if you want to and I used to love to raid but as I grew older I less and less enjoyed the fact of having to sign up for a game event 2 to 3 times a week that took 3 to 4 hours per session and basically plan my real life around a video game calendar. The flexibilty of M+ is what keeps me playing this game and most of my friends feel similarily.
Completely agree on all your takes. I am also highly rated M+ player, but I also find the current system absolute trash. The amount of RNG in this game is absurdly high which is an issue, especially from players who want to compete on a higher level. This is especially true for the GV. You have to hope that something you need will drop, otherwise you have to wait another week or weekS... Pugging is impossible, especially if you are not a "meta" spec... Gatekeeping is at this moment at its largest state in WoW than it has ever been. Because the system encourages it. And yes, I agree with Ilvl difference being higher is also stupid exactly for the reason you mentioned. I also can't cap my Gilded crests because M+ dungeons tire me and most of the times I have to wait for a group to invite me which takes a long time as well. Bottomline - this season is the worst M+ season in the history of M+. And I participated in almost all seasons.
Blizzard doesn't test things. The first few months of each expansion release is basically the players paying to beta test the game. I mean, some 10 years old dungeons have 10 years old bugs in them.
Since hero track functionally stops at 619 (you can't get enough gilded crests to get anywhere without doing content that drops myth track), champ is even identical to hero, and it's all a massive 20 ilvl short of myth. There's no functional reward difference between someone who only does 8 delves a week and someone who clears 6/8 heroic raids and +7 keys all day every day. That's a huge gulf in difficulty for the exact same 619 cap.
Mythic raiding should be optionla challenge. Overall it shouldn't even give better gear, something they understood with the delves, where 9-11 is simply challenge without any better reward. The hightest difficulty in a game should simply be that: you are doing it, because you want something to hit your head against, a challenge.
@@miriamweller812 I'd even appreciate that tbh. Having Mythic Raids and high M+ keys drop unique transmog for example would be way cooler than just getting gear. Gear gets invalidated with each new content patch. Unique transmog is forever. :D
At 1:57, "Blizzard doesn't' do a good job of tutorializing all these elements in the game." Bingo, glad to hear that said out loud. They set up the pressure for players to engage with those elements though. WoW is so much more fun once you know how to play it and what it expects of you, and it kills me that the game doesn't make more of an effort to make content that teaches the players how things work. I think they over-rely on third party community resources to fill that role for them. I'm glad to see them making things like follower dungeons. It is cool that your AI tank will say things like "let's wait for this patrol." That is great teaching content about the mechanic of managing pulls. Now I would love to see them improve on that by having them say things like "stun that big guy quick" and ping the mob as it is casting a big AoE fear spell. So much potential there. Would be great to see people learn to play the game by playing the game instead of being flamed in chat for not watching the team liquid youtube guide first.
As much as people meme about it, Brann does this too and it's nice. He yells out and emotes when he interrupts a spell or dispels, he warns you not to stand in certain things etc.
It's been the same basic mechanics in every single dungeon and raid for years and years. If you don't know the basic mechanics don't jump right into the hardest content...
@@mrfrupo Once you have been around for years and years it is hard to remember what it is like not knowing those long standing basic mechanics. Not everyone has been around for years and years. I don't think anyone just jumps right into the hardest content. But you do hit a wall pretty soon after finishing the story stuff where the only way to progress your character is to do instances. So the game kinda pushes you into it, and as they mentioned in this video, there is no transition point built in that builds your skill of those mechanics in-between. You can go through the entirety of the campaign and normal dungeons and maybe even LFR without ever using an interrupt and still make it through, then it is suddenly expected of you and it is not as intuitive as it seems to a veteran. You don't know what you don't know until you jump in and suddenly everyone is mad you are not doing something you have never encountered up until that point. If you are lucky someone will be nice and inform you about a tutorial on RU-vid, which even after watching can still take time to be able to apply it. It sucks that the only way to learn in game is through hard knocks like that and often at the expense of the players in your group.
@@Junebug89 Yeah I definitely hope they continue to do more things like that in the game. It really raises awareness of those basic skill expectations, that only seem intuitive in retrospect.
I've said this a lot but Wow is a game that does not teach you how to play it in the least. You can make it to 80 by spamming abilities and having no idea how anything about your class works because open world pve does not really ever require you to learn mechanics.
On the green fire point , I like solo progression / challenge gate keeping. What I don't like is scheduled activity. I can't and don't want to commit to a raiding schedule. I pug all normals, after watching guides on the bosses. It's not that I don't want to take the game seriously, it's that I want to take to seriously on my time.
The reward to headache ratio is absurd. 1). First of all, it's timed. That's one of the major issues. Timed content creates a pressure to take higher risks instead of measured and thoughtful game-play. No other progression is timed like Mythic +. You can't go into a Mythic + dungeon and relax and have a good time. That's a serious problem for the player base that actually pays for a subscription (e-gamer and hardcore players don't pay for subs. They have the time to make enough gold while playing the game to get tokens). 2) The rewards are pathetically bad. Players don't actually run them for the rewards. They run them for the crests. You get, at MOST, 2 random items for 5 players. Most often, you only get 1 random item for 5 players. That's pathetic. Compare that to bountiful delves where EVERY player gets a reward and 2 Runed Harbinger crests. It's RIDICULOUS to attempt to farm for a specific item in Mythic +. You could run the same Mythic + 50 times and NEVER see the item you are looking for. Is that worth the headache from point 1? For 99% of the player base, it's just not worth it. 3). The feeling you get isn't one of accomplishment, it's one of relieved exhaustion. I've never completed a Mythic + and felt like I accomplished something. I felt relieved that the headache was over. Mythic + isn't rewarding content. It's a painful necessity for crests. Suggestions: 1). Stop making them timed. Do not put a timer on them, instead just make them a little harder. If it takes your players half an hour to complete a Mythic 8 great. If it takes your players 2 hours to complete a Mythic 8, that's not going to be an enjoyable experience for players and they will either lower their key or improve their skill set. 2). Every player should get a reward. Every player. Like in delves, every player should have a personal loot chest as a reward. Why this isn't common sense.. Blizzard. Do better. 3). You should have a choice to upgrade your key at the end or keep it of the same level. That way you can decide if you want to spend 3 hours on the next key level or continue farming the current level you are at until you get better gear upgrades.
you perfectly explained why I hate m+ and love delves. In m+, if shit goes sideways, not only is the whole run is wasted, but so is the next one to re-up my key! In a delve, if it goes bad we can either finish it or restart it at exactly the same level. Add in the timer, that encourages "go go go go go" stress, huge and risky pulls, vs no timer on delves where a "good pull" means smooth kills and minimizing risks, and why on earth would I want to go do m+? I haven't touched an m+ since delves came out, and I doubt I will ever again.
they briefly hit on it. but i honestly believe that m+ should be like delves in the way that you need to complete a +2 before you can join into a +3 etc. because I'm sure others have similar experiences pugging. but you get into the higher key levels and you have people who don't even know the base mechanics of the dungeon yet. yet they are in a +9-10. or it could be because of the key squish. but you have people going into dungeons that they don't even have half of the required dps to kill things in an appropriate time. speaking of time. the 15 seconds on each death is just impossible for pugs. worst case you have 1 wipe. just one. and people will leave because the key just got 10x harder and stressful. best case you at least get completion and something. but the 15 seconds per death is far far far to punishing when not in a organized group. now yes you could argue "well if you have 30 deaths you don't deserve to time it" thats fine i understand that...but it's becoming untimable with less than 6 depending on the dungeon.
the problem with M+ is not the difficulty of the dungeons themselves, its the fact that if you or a player in your group comes up against difficulty they are unprepared for or undergeared for or have to learn, they stand a good chance of ruining the other party members resources/rating, thus turning it from a PVE game mode into a PVEVP game mode that has players at each others throats purely because of costly mechanics and public ratings baked into the game modes structure. its the same toxicity that you see in ranked LoL for all the same reasons.
I think one of the main problems with the expansion launch is that there was no m0 week, instead there was Delve week. Previous expansions, people were heading into m0 with fairly ratty gear and had to - at least to some extent - learn how to do the dungeons. It being m0 week, there was nothing else to really do. This was followed by m+ being the source of gear - you would work your way up through these to unlock higher ilvl drops and (once introduced) crests etc. Instead we have TWW launch - heroic dungeons were fairly worthless for gear, I barely did any. I got similar gear levels from just doing world quests/killing rares. M0 week - well Delve's have released at the same time and I need to do my 4 per day per character to turn all these bountiful keys I've saved up into Champion/Hero loot. Meanwhile, m0 was giving veteran crap. I didn't do any m0s, no time and no worthwhile rewards. My champion/hero loot from Delve's could be upgraded to 610 extremely easily, and 619 with runed crests which can fairly easily be earned from other sources. Without access to gilded crests, there is also no difference between the max ilvl of my champion and hero loot. Where do I go next? I need m9s (or m8s now) to get gilded or m10s for mythic loot - the hero loot from m7 was worthless. Okay I need m9s, but I've barely done any m0/m+ and I don't really know the dungeons - normals were worthless, heroics were worthless, m0s were worthless, m2-m8s were worthless. Congratulations, I have 619 ilvl but will brick every key I enter until I can learn.
Just implement all the mechanics in a heroic dungeon/normal dungeon so people will have an idea how to deal with m+. Remove the timer..doesnt make any sense. God i miss the time when we just a run a dungeon, get our gear and be done with it.
@@brandonr.2807 We kinda had that with Horrific Visions back in BfA. Personally, I didn't mind affixes, timers, etc nearly as much in a solo context… what makes those things really suck is the group aspect. If I screw up in something like a delve or vision, it only impacts me, but if I screw up in M+ I've ruined somebody else's day which is what breeds toxicity.
M+ has always been awful. They need a rework badly. Timed content is HORRIBLE. My issue isnt with difficult content, you can overcome that with progression, my issue is if someone AFKs or DCs or leaves a run at any point, the entire run is botched and the keyholder gets punished for it with a downgrade. Its just a bad system.
Timed is fine, and there for a reason. It discourages degenerate behavior like waiting for lust for every pull. People just don't want to learn and get better. This is the first season since legion that I participated in M+ at all, and it took me 3 weeks to keystone hero. Yes 10's for max reward vault is way harder than 15's in legion, but that's okay. Anyone can stop at the point where they learn that they can't meet the challenge of the key anymore. It's the same with any mmr ladder in other games or chess etc. Remove depletion and add deserter debuff to m+ though.
@@whereisthesurvivalhunter9525 It would still get rid of the speedrunning and competitive aspect. The timer introduces a level of tension that gets higher the closer you get to the end and resolves in that sweet dopamine hit on success. I want to get good at the dungeons, and play with others that feel the same. Without the timer, there would always be an amount of social pressure to go the easier route. If people so desperately need myth track they can still raid mythic. That's way more comfy anyways. Caused a wipe? Just go again.
One simple change, to fix m+. removed any and all punishment for not timing the key, other than rating, and let people choose if they want the key upgraded, or keep it's current level, at the end of the run.
Actually agree. I mean, I think you should still get less rewards for not timing it, and I don't think it should be upgraded, but I don't think it should deplete. We already have the choice to deplete them by will so... yeah I agree. This would help people not interact more than they want to with players they don't want to interact with, and let people just progress and be done with the content after they've completed it, which I think is fine. Having to redo an 11 when you already know you'll beat it just to try again at a 12 feels bad for sure.
I don't necessarily think that it is fair to expect people with higher skill to go back and be forced to engage with potentially less skilled players again and again when they don't get anything from that. Some bigger divides might be nice.
M+ being on a timer has always been confusing as hell to me. Timer for more loot or achievements that give mount/toys? Sure. For pushing further into the keys? not so much. Degrading the key? certainly not.
@@Murrytmds The timer is important. Since M+ adopted the rating system, it became aspirational content. Many people, me included, are in it for the journey of mastery. Without the timer, the competitive aspect gets lost. At the same time, the timer generates tension that gets it's climax and resolution when the last boss dies, it's a good feeling. And most importantly, it discourages degenerate behaviour like waiting for lust before every pull. Key depletion also generates tension, but as @Drasnier above explained, it psychologically sucks more to get double punished for failure. Not beating the timer, and getting less currency is enough. Agree to remove depletion.
I love doing 5 mythic dungeons only to get 2 pieces of gear, getting a item that is not good for my class or already have most of the time. on top of that; the game is a race for no reason while giving me 51 gold at the end to cover the cost of the repairs the gear will give me if i dont die. Thats assuming my pug group doing 8s wont just die once and give up or we fail 55% of dungeons before they start because they go mental to fast. Or you can do a delve and always get a piece of gear, even if you cant use it, and you might get other cool stuff at the end. it's not a race. and best of all, you dont have to worry about losing a key because someone leaves in a mythic because you aggroed a mob wrong.
Much, much better take from you this time around when talking about player progression, skill, delves etc. I think you guys got hit pretty hard by us fans on previous talks so maybe you listened. A few points you really should know: people doing delves has nothing to do with skill levels and you still completely miss the point on this again. I promise you I could do mythic 10 or mythic raid or get gladiator again if I cared to. Many of my friends are the same. We just prefer comfort and chilling with those we love over sweating in tryhard content for a stupid piece of loot and a title that truly no one cares if we have. Delves are popular because they require effort, some attention to detail and character abilities, and general progression of gear/team (friends or Brann) to become smoother. This is what traditional RPGs were before the world of dark souls-esque gameplay corrupted it in the past decade. Those of us who like delves like it because it's fun and I have heard a lot of "high end" players miss this point completely since they came out. Character progression shouldn't be just about skill. In fact, if you think about literally ALL table top and old school CRPG (early wow included for sure) you will see a complete emphasis on those and a total lack of emphasis on try hard sweaty push button fast or die nonsense. This was never supposed to be what RPGs are and that is why delves ARE and WILL continue to be popular: chill gameplay with friends that gradually progresses your account and stats. It involves some basic story telling but could be much better like specific account wide delve progression (Brann level etc) could continue a narrative. Anyway, I hope you can understand that what players choose to do with their time is hardly an indicator of skill and I know too many examples (myself included) who could be doing M10 keys or 2000+ rating pvp content but just don't want to anymore. Content chosen =/= skill level.
I feel like the dungeoneering culture of WoW is just completely dead. It just doesn't feel good anymore, and obviously pugging is just a nightmare. All anyone wants is the numbers, but yet people never take the time to explain HOW to get the numbers. There's a reason why it requires a key to be inserted in order to run a M+ dungeon. There's virtually no communication anymore. I'm on the Sargeras realm and general chat is DEAD. I see more active chat when I'm in Delves than I do in Party chat or in the middle of the hub city. It feels better to just challenge myself to a few Delves, and then chill. No rush, no nagging dps telling me to go faster, no tank yelling at me for failing a mechanic, and no healer to bitch at me for missing one interrupt. Just me, myself, and Brann who by the way encourages me the ENTIRE TIME, and even gives me food to recover. The definition of Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. So instead of pugging and hoping that I don't deal with toxicity, I'll just cut that out and not bother with it. 'But what about your gear?!' What about it? Pugging for a raid is much easier, and I can always get the tier later in season as I get tokens for the forge. The game rewards me for waiting and taking the long road. I don't need Hero gear. There's always next expac, and I can run the old raids for T-Mog. I'm just tired of doing something that is high stress, and having to deal with toxic ass players as well just isn't for me.
"I'm on the Sargeras realm and general chat is DEAD." I don't know this for sure, but I've been told most hardcore WoW players have moved over to Discord servers, hence the quiet nature of the in-game chat channels.
The only way to boost M+ participation and overall morale is completely gut the current system and design a solo queue without the god awful death affix. The worst part about mythic+ isn’t the difficulty, it’s the high probability of failure. It feels absolutely terrible to get to the last boss, wipe twice and one person leave.
So make it braindead pointless content that requires no coordination, planning, gear optimization and it's just faceroll non group content in an MMO so you can get easy gear and still fail anything that remotely is not just a gear check. If you can't do 8+s now, that's on you.
What if the timer got replaced with a Limited Resurection counter like in delves. But it counts only when you Release....then you give Rating based on how fast you are/with so many resurrections left..😊 some math behind...(Time is Additive/ respawns left is the multiplier idk)
The stakes of M+ just makes it unpleasant. The timer, the keys, being punished for failure -- makes pug groups toxic by nature. Make M+ like delves & I'll do it.
Speedrunning is awesome and M+ is speedrunning in wow. The depletes are important(without depletion all keys are MDI-type keys), the timer is important(tension so keys are not all 90 minutes completion keys).M+ is the only place in the game where you can push your skills to the limit. Anything else but mythic raiding is braindead easy but M+ pushers don't ask that it be removed from the game because we understand different people like different things. If you don't like speedrunning, don't engage with the content and stop yapping about it. Go do some mythic raiding, it's the same difficulty as a +10 and has no timer. Good luck with the roster boss though. The toxicity is minimal if you can play to the required level of skill or actually bother spending the time to get better. People take criticism as toxicity now, it's very immature. If you play well you don't get toxicity at all. The only toxic players I played with this season were very bad players taking advice for toxicity.
@@VDHmain I would have exactly 0 issues with M+ if it wasn't the only way to get the mythic armor effects on the rest of the tier sets. If they gave a way to achieve that through raid &/or through delves, I'd be a happy camper.
It isn't tho. If you want to raid you need to just zone into raid...if you want to be optimal you will do fucking anything for upgrades...at least we no longer have to Play PvP for trinkets and so, cuz that was truly absoloutly bullshit
You don't? You can do normal in crafted gear or M0 pieces, heroic once you've geared from that and with all the crests you got raiding for 8 weeks, you can upgrade enough to start mythic. At what point do you feel pressured to do M+? Because it's a quicker way to get gear? Go figure.
@@soulflame99 While this whole thread is doing the funny "of course you can" on both sides the incentive to do the other is really strong. If you're in any kind of mythic raiding guild, the social pressure to do a few 10 keys a week is big. Same goes for any static group trying to push their limits in m+ You have 16 gear slots in your character sheet. 1 myth track item from the vault/week. It's rare to not get a slot dupe in the vault at some point.
I main resto shaman for two decades, played m+ since legion. Many titles and mounts from m+...I only pug, been guildless for years.. I have lost all will to do m+. I'm sitting at 1780ish score. The damage profile... is insane. It just gets more and more stupid with each season. DPS players never helping with affixes... I'm so done. It's nonsense. The biggest mistake was making 5s feel like 15s. It's over for me and I don't know why I even have a sub anymore.
Same assassination rogue here since launch and I'm not sure why I'm even playing anymore I can't remember the last the time I got home from a stressful day at work and had "fun" with this game its just full of fomo, timers and just plain to damn hard all for so someone can say they got X mount or X title before X date and you didn't therefore you're trash and not allowed to run with them. Let the %5 of players have the game already blizz has gatekept it for them since I'd say legion
You're just forgetting that the rsham is THE HEALER, he has a kit for all dungeons and all the affixes, being the only healer who can carry a pug on his back. If you've been playing shaman since legion and are having difficulty healing most of your keys with 1.7k IO (which isn't even KSM), I believe it's not just your teammates that are the problem. I got 2k in the second week with disc priest, having never played with him in my life.
I am a resto sham and a veng dh tank. Do delves, I am so so happy in them and am ignoring mplus for the first time ever, and they even have a glory of achiev with a mount for delves :)
@@thalesrocha1533 lol people like you are the issue. I have raided world ranked in my time, and I agree with light. The need to swing your dck and jump on a comment saying "duh duh get good look how awesome I am noob" is why delves are gutting mplus. I no longer take my learners or mates to mplus, why expose them to your kind of attitude when we can sit in a delve they can have fun and learn, I have the tens and elevens for personal challenge. I got ksm on disc preist season one SL btw, getting it on one now is nothing mate.
@@LizzieLeish I dont think they were saying get good, I think they were calling out the inconsistency with what they wrote. You don't pug "many titles" in m+ and then get hardstuck
Great discussion/video. Specifically at @27:17, exactly! As a Delver, I'll never do M+, as it would be a turn off to do, in the same way as non-casual/regular BGs PvP would be to me. I have a skill ceiling and a stress level that I do not want to try to surpass, during my recreational time. I have no problem with 'harder' content existing for those who wish to have it, but then I don't want those same people gating my enjoyment of the game (gear acquisition) because I'm not worthy because since I'm not playing at the same difficulty level as they are.
I mean...you as a delver getting a hero track gear is offensive for everyone else. I compleately get where you are comming from, but if you want good gear you need to do harder content, and if you dont want to do harder content you dont need the better gear...like you REALLY dont need better gear, everything that isn't high m+ and/or Mythic raid dont require you to have any gear, even stuff you get from WQ is enough to do all delves including "zekvir ??"
@@xsardes336 "you as a delver getting a hero track gear is offensive for everyone else." Not to other casuals who pay a sub fee, only the 1%ers. The Casuals don't mind what the 1%ers do as long as it doesn't affect the Casuals gameplay, so why dos the 1% mind what the Casuals do since it doesn't affect the 1%ers gameplay? "I compleately get where you are comming from, but if you want good gear you need to do harder content" I could counter with "My $15 is as good as yours", and "keep out of my business, mind your own", as you sticking your nose in my recreational time is offensive to me and other casuals. I'd then ask, as an answer to your opinion, "why?" Why can't "all roads lead to Rome"? You could be given special titles and things like mounts and such, without having to diminish my progression in my video game (WoW is first and foremost about getting better gear). And in case you're going to ask, I want the better gear to do the parts of the content in WoW that I do consume easier/faster/funner.
So youre against hard work = better rewards? I havent raided seriously since before mythic even existed and this is the most entitled thing ive ever heard from a grown adult lol.
M+ this season is fuking exhausting. 9,000,000 casts going off at once, kicks getting overlapped and mobs instantly recasting is a special kind of hell
AoE stops were too powerful. They serve as a tool to buy time for kicks to come off of CD now. People need to learn and get better at interrupting *late*, that's all.
@@GotekSC Yes let me and the 4 other toxic angry randoms "learn together" and powow after the game around an open campfire. People will leave after one death dude, nobody "learns" pugging m+. Not to mention people are monkeys and cant follow directions.
@@GotekSC That's fine if they wanted to power down the AoE stops. Don't lower their power AND pile on more required CC/kicks. Don't punish the player base for their absolutely idiotic decision to allow DH's original Illuminated Sigils not only making it to release but lasting a whole season!
Dude I swear to god the mobs are over tuned with their spells. Web bolts hitting for 1.2 million and having them spammable is ridiculous. Even doing delves they can just crank out 4 million of damage in no time flat and I have a single interrupt with a 30 second cooldown.
Delves Rank 11 should drop Gilded Crests so casuals / solos can stick to the Delve pillar to finish upgrading their Vault Hero drops *without* being funneled into M+ / Raids if they want. M+ ranks 2-6 shouldn't have a timer at all and shouldn't deplete keys (upgrades on completion). Challenger's Peril at +7 should be what introduces the timer.
Delver's bounty chests reward 3 THREE gilded crests. I did 127 delves. I got 2 Delver's bounty. That's 6 gilded crests. I only need to do 1764 more delves to afford a 636 crafted item.
I disagree. All they need to do is make all hero track gear use tuned crests and all mythic track gear uses gilded crests. The overlap of different crests is just a dumb way to timegate people and it's ruining delver's prog
You're not doing content where you need the gear anyway, so why? XD And you're never going to either, because you're missing the point of it entirely. Play to have fun. Play to excel at the class you picked. And don't care about gear, FORGET ABOUT GEAR. It will just drop into your hands at intervals, and you'll go "yay" and put it on and forget about it again, cause you're off to run another key because *that is the fun bit*. GLHF Edit: I agree about depletes, I don't think that should be a thing at all, personally.
Genuine question. Whats the point of gear if your not doing M+ or mythic raiding? Half of the delves you can literally avoid all the mobs and go straight to the boss. If you can do delves at 616 ilvl why do you need full 639?
Feeling more and more validated as time goes on that M+ was a mistake. Turning them into glorified speed runs is antithetical to what dungeons should be in video games. Add on top of that the way the WoW community is with this kind of stuff, and it gives me zero motivation to participate in the system.
4 дня назад
simple get friends a consistent 5 man group, and stop blaming the community, classic is just as toxic, a lot of people hating on M+ obviously don't have friends
M+ is the best thing they added to wow. Gave something repeatable , challenging , and fun. The rollout this season has been bumpy, but it will smooth out.
Mythic + is in a really bad state now. And that’s not counting players who choose to do Delves instead. The dungeons are not tuned right, some of the timers need to be adjusted and there’s no engaging gameplay with the affixes. They need to improve the experience so more people will play. And I tank pugs so this is one more tank on the side of just quitting
What does "improve the experience" mean to you? I tanked my way to 2.5k in pugs too. My first season since antorus. I think it's in a good state, actually. I like the difficulty to reward ratio right now. The upside from my perspective in the 10 range is that I encounter good players most of the time. Every iteration of affixes had critics, and it will never stop. I'm indifferent to the affixes, and tuning will get there over time. But instead of praying that blizz will do anything about them, I go ahead with the assumption that nothing changes and continue playing while taking control of what I *can* do. Learning from every deplete and trying to get better, because there is no other game that can offer similar gameplay to tanking high-ish M+ keys, and it's insanely good. Hope you can find more joy in m+, we need more ppl tanking.
@@GotekSC im heal and you are right i but the expation 5 days ago and im already doing m+7-8 with not issues, aloot of people dont like are people just play in pugs and dont have their groups. yes if you dps dont interrupt or you tank pull more than you need, but thats why comunication its key for m+
You hit the nail right on the head. Challenging content requires trial and error (less or more depending on the person), with group content you got added coordination on top of that. This applies to other types of games and not only WoW. M+ goes against that. Unless you got a predetermined group ready to learn and execute the encounters, M+ just sets people up to fail, matching them against mechanics they have never experienced and expecting them to beat them in one go.
The weight of M+ failures paired with with the bumped difficulty shouldn't be underestimated. My guild is full of amazing and lovely people. We got curve 2 days ago, and I felt like a viable healer and I am not ashamed of my performance. But I feel so bad for being the ignorant fool who hasn't gone above 7s that I don't want to join higher keys with the guild any more because even when everyone is kind and understanding it is painful to walk into their key knowing I will probably be the reason it isn't timed and that will cost them 30-40 minutes just to get back to where they started. And I probably won't even be the right person to help them push it up again. I'm rapidly approaching the 619 gear trap, and I don't know how to progress because I'm frankly embarrassed to join keys with the people I like, but I really am not going to pug, especially not the lower keys I can actually get into because they have no character progression available. Guess I'm one of the people who plays without seeking mastery. Looks like I'll be raidlogging unless something changes. The painful part is that it didn't feel like this before. Except maybe DF S1 which was also rough, but on the whole, M+ has never felt this demanding, and it feels like the devs just don't want players like me around any more.
You got curve brother/sister. Just have your friends teach you the mechanics. I've pugged to 2500 as a tank, and doing keys with friends a level lower. I know they're good enough players. I remind them of mechanics even from dungs we've already been to on an even lower level. I tank, and while the pull is going I remind them of what to kick, where I'd like them to position, when to do defensives. You sound like someone that already has the right mentality. You *do* feel empathy for the people risking their keys. Now go ahead and apply yourself to the problem, study the dungeons (maybe get a friend to go over a route with you with MDT) and become a better player. The increased difficulty comes with an upshot to people on the other side. Mastery over the dungeons feels insanely good. And as opposed to raiding, where really only progression is truly engaging, mythic+ stays that way because of the speedrun aspect to it. Also, pugging isnt nearly as toxic as the shitters make it out to be. You're mostly reading from people that logged onto twitter or this comment section to complain about toxicity and bad players, when they are only in m+ for the shinies while trying to find every mechanic to die to. You will definitely encounter these people in anything below 8, and from then onwards it gets rarer and rarer. Leavers still exist at all levels though.
We need harder delves. Something worthy of giving myth track gear and gilded crests. Screw M+. I hated it since day one, but I felt forced to do it for the gear.
I like Delves and M+ a lot, slightly more so M+. But Delves do expose the issue of M+ being a game type that fosters toxicity and is mostly anti-community cohesion. Once Delves are no longer really worth it for gear, the difficulty spike to jump into M+ to get 619+ gear is comparatively astronomical to an 8 delve. Blizzard should take another look at the timer - is that timer really conducive to an RPG? Is it helping the community or building thick walls between players?
The problem there is that delves are too rewarding for their difficulty. You can get 616 from bountiful delves alone without a single map or vault, and my main that im pushing 10+ on is 620. That means you get people in +4s and +8s that have never had a challenge outside of "this mob auto hits me for 70% of my health lol" This has NEVER been a problem before to the extent it is now because of delves giving players crazy good gear from completely braindead content. Mythic dungeons, just like raid bosses, are a progression. You learn them as you go to eventually time them and to go higher. People coming straight from delves to crest breakpoint difficulties are missing a lot of practice with the dungeons and at the same time expecting others to make up for their lack of knowledge. Delve loot either needs to be nerfed HARD or it needs its own gear progression, completely separated from raids/m+
@@Jonseemann LOL so you can solo an eleven delve then? years of ksm, delves I actually need all my kit over an 8, but yeah we need our own gear, I hate that I have to go back and run with the sweatlord crowd in mplus now I need the currency from plus 8.
as a solo player, M+ was always a big NO. the whole score system is toxic because people will invite you or decline you based on that. It's a nightmare to get invited so you have to pug your own keys and even then its a nightmare, you'll bump into a lot of bad/toxic players, you get punished hard for failing a key. Unless you have a really chill group of friends its not worth it. I love the concept of turning everything solo. Delves is a much better idea. just like I love the idea of solo RBG's and solo shuffle. one thing is true: people suck and make things harder and less enjoyable.
While I agree with the first bit turning everything solo is not the solution, especially not for an mmo and they should have learned that lesson from WoD. What they need to do is remove depletions so we can just try again and replace someone if they don't work with the group. It would also make people less picky when forming groups and not everything would need to be meta.
M+ is the worst, most destructive system that has ever been introduced into the game and its a terribly lazy system at that. there is no real thought put into the dungeons, they just slap a couple gimmicky affixes and a timer into a dungeon and call it a day. the massive flaws in the system have been apparent for quite a number of years, its just that people were willfully ignorant of them due to not wanting to admit the flaws existed. Its just now you really cant do that because you cant argue with participation numbers. the second a competing system gets dropped, most people dropped M+. it was obvious people were only doing it for the rewards, not because they found it fun or entertaining.
Project harder. It's actually statistically the most successful non-raid content they have ever added. Proven time and time again by participation rates, game creations and the fact they even alter class skills to include m+ situations. But yeah, keep projecting your failure and say it's the worst system because what the matter is it's just you don't enjoy it now and it's too hard - even though they nerfed it now and 8+ is a joke.
As someone who pugged there way up to 2500 for the first time this season, early keys are slower and fail more often than the high keys because low keys people dont know what they are doing.
I pugged KSH this season and I can say with absolute certainty that blizzard wants to box solo players off into being just delvers, they could only make pugging into such a miserable experience because in their minds players no longer need to pug, they can go do delves instead. If they made it so that mobs didn't go right back to casting after being stunned like before it would change the story overnight (probably). I'm not sure why blizzard wants to box players in, surely players engaging with more than one from of content can only be good for the game.
The casting change was good. It finally solves the circular journey since b11 racial op in legion, to all aoe stops gone, to now its a good compromise. Aoe stops or stuns are meant to buy time until the next interrupt is ready. It forces people to become better players. Learn to actually look at and read the group kick cd thingy that everyone uses. Learn to wait for kicks until the last moment to increase time between casts.
If you think about doing M+ pugs, know you will become a misanthrope. The state of M+ pugs is pure torment. You will see people with a 2.7k rating who do 400k dps, do not interrupt, and leave after they died once. That is, if you are lucky. Most groups are a "boost the leader" kind of deal. If you are a DPS that isn't a 620+ Paladin/Shaman, prepare to scroll that list for 30-60 minutes. The loot you receive will be shit unless its a trinket. And that will probably be rebalanced by the next hotfix. So you sacrifice your time and sanity for a chance of a good item ONCE A WEEK. You are doing the equivalent of mythic raiding while people are actively trying to grief you, to receive unupgraded heroic loot. Yes, 8+ keys reward gilded crests. But you will either do those keys with guildies, on coms or you will rip yourself bald and cry yourself to sleep at the sheer anti-competence you will witness.
Mannn, if I see a 2700 rated DPS, which happens kinda often when they want to boost their low-geared friend on the friends alt, they out-dps the entire rest of the party by 2 or 3 times, but they'll leave on the first or second wipe if the tank or healer doesn't know what to do and refuse to communicate back when they're told the right thing. Because they know what happens from there, they've been there a 100 times before and lost all patience with people that don't want to get better. :) Bro, none of us are doing this to get gear. The gear is just what we use to do the thing we think is fun, which is blast some keys, heal some crazy incoming damage, and have a good time. You are the kind of player with a bad mentality that only cares about gear, and you never improve because of it, I'm being serious. Listen. Sure keys over 8 start getting hard at times. Though since I'm a healer main that knows my stuff I actually have a way easier time in high keys where people aren't hopeless. Lower keys can be awful though, because people like you never get good, as you don't play for the fun of it or to feel like you're excelling at your class, you only play for the shiny at the end... Change that mentality and you'll soar my friend, soar in the sweet skies of tasty, TASTY victory! Well... sometimes. The rest of the time you'll frown as you take a look at your tanks stats on WoWArmory after a few wipes, then sigh as they cuss you out. Then you grab a drink before jumping into your next attempt. (I swear if I see one more tank eat the beam (you can just move back a bit she's not going anywhere tanks that read this) on the first boss of Dawnbreaker I'm gonna scream xD) Good luck buddy. It can be done, just don't... be so angry about it. ^^ And understand that the people you hate are NOT the elitist high-rated guys. It's the angry bois who think that shit has any status attached to it and aren't there yet that will give you pain. And those people... are just bad.
@@Terrados1337 haha, I've seen it all since I've been playing since before M+ was a thing. I have some stories... xD One quick thing, the Xalatath balls you just walk into, they don't deal damage or anything, you just gotta not let them hit the mobs because that buffs the mobs. If you walk in them they buff you. But yeah low keys are just hell cause most of the players doing them are bad and refused to learn anything before they entered the timed mode. It does get better higher up, but that bar goes up as the weeks go by and the losers get more gear for free... But like, can't be helped. These people have had no challenge in the game (or maybe life) before this so that's just how it goes I'm afraid. Only way to solve it is to get really elitist in who you invite to your keys. And abandon the losers... sorry not sorry.
@@Drasnier Dude, I've enjoyed reading your contributions in this comment section. BTW, I am that tank on dawnbringer. I tried walking away from her as soon as the dbm announcement comes but still get damaged. Might be the case I'm a shitter. Any detailed tips?
My biggest issue other than the toxicity of pugging (and my own lack of skill), is the loot drops. 9/10 times I get gold. I started a spreadsheet of all the dungeons I've done since the mythics started, and I've gotten 17 drops out of 83 dungeons that have been completed, and 9 of them were dupes. Combine that with people being either super elitist, generally nasty, or wholly incompetent, and the three groups that- once they realized that IF we timed it, it wouldn't be by much, started just sabotaging. Pugging raids is just as bad as of late. "Sorry, this isn't a prog group" and a kick, after asking in a whisper about an unfamiliar strategy (Ovi where they wanted to do a 4-4-3, but all that was said was "we're doing 4-4-3" and then pulled. Not a "Hey, we're doing 4-4-3, everyone good? No ready check, no anything. Or requiring 7/8hc for a "alt friendly run"..... yeah, no, pugging raids is just as similarly toxic as M+. Loot is just not worth it anymore, and it's killing the game for me, at least.
I refuse to believe people are this dumb, that Blizzard needed to implement Delves just for them to see how BAD of a system M+ is... I've been screaming this eversince Legion. It's TRASH, it should NOT have anything to do with gear progression. Sure keep it in for the few people who actually like it cause they have a consistent group for it but otherwise, just let players progress their gear without having to live through that terrible experience, just let raiders progress their gear from raids for example, there really is no need to force people into M+...
But this expansion it was the other way around, you felt forced to raid if you cannot pug high enough in M+ I literally lag 2 weeks behind in terms of gear because i refused to raid after the release of M+.
@@whereisthesurvivalhunter9525 yes, that's how it should be, how it always was back in the day, that raiding is THE endgame, the main challenging & rewarding content, the way you progress your gear. M+ always should have simply been an optional challenge mode.. Since BFA it's a manditory bridge between HC and Mythic raiding..
While I prefer a 5-man dungeon experience to raiding, I do agree with your opinion on the matter. Blizzard could have created an excellent multi-tiered dungeon progression system without a timer and was actually working on one prior to Wrath, but settled on the lowest common denominator (the esports crowd) and never looked back. That's why you see those same players rush to the comments bashing against people complaining against M+ in a vain attempt to protect their precious. Legion's Karazhan 5-man should have been the start of such a system being a mainstay, pushed and reiterated on much more than they have been doing. Its still not too late for that too.
why don't they just make it a change so Zek'Vir is available once a week to drop 15 gilded. As an example you need delve prerequisites for that week, 12 bountiful's done that week (at +8 or higher) to unlock Zek'vir etc. They could attach affixes on Zek'Vir each week in the form of different stories like delves.
it just hurts that blizzard has decided from the get go to intentionally design delves to be inferior to m+ and raids. i want to work just as hard as a mythic raider and earn mythic level loot i just want to do it solo, but they capped us at heroic and slowly drip feed us hero gear out of the vault while nerfing the delves to the ground every week. plus all the delves are just slight variations of the same few sets of enemies, you get kobolds, cultists, fungal, or spiders. and zekvir? shove him in a broom closet with no unlock requirement, make him a sack of health with a fear, good enough. really dissapointed with the implementation so far, hope blizzard really pumps the gas with delves next season because i want to enjoy them but i also want to be challenged and that is the antithesis of their design so far.
What do you need the loot for? Are you in it for the loot, or for the aspirational aspect of clearing higher delves? Or how the bellular gang calls it, are you extrinsically or intrinsically motivated? As for us m+ers, at some point you get gear capped, but the m+ continues scaling. We don't stop trying to improve as players though and chase for higher rating. Good raiders or m+ers see loot as a tool, not as the reward itself.
Delves were never meant to replace ,+ and raids. WOW is not meant to be a full solo game to get the best gear possible. That's the reality you fail to accept.
It seems like a huge part of the problem is the change to Stops/Interrupts. Stops need to put enemy casts back on CDs and/or overlapped kicks need to not go on CD. It's not a difficulty issue, its a communications issue. The bulk of M+ community is not coordinated groups on comms, and those people can find their challenge through normal scaling. There is not an option for PUGs other than just running low keys you out gear without a progression track to higher gear.
You are exactly right. The moment you hit 606 in delves you feel forced to switch from delves to M+. You don’t feel done, but the progress via delves is too grindy. Doing 8 delves for 16 crests to upgrade to 4/6 without the option to go to 6/6 sucks. There are two ways that might work for me. Road 1 is to remove or lessen the friction between delves and other content. Like with pvp have delve gear. Delve gear is ilvl x in raid and m+ and x+y in delves and open world. It can be upgraded. So for example you get an item from delves it is max track for delves and open world. It is 1/6 for raid and m+ and you can upgrade it to 6/6. And you can even get myth track gear from delves 9, 10 or 11. The second road is making either a different dungeon route or make it more pug friendly. I want to login and just play. I don’t want to go through all kinds of hoops. A few hoops and possible solutions. First of all getting into a party and getting a full party; I don’t know a solution for the first part, but getting a full group might be easier if tanking and healing would be more attractive; this could be done by power so a tank feels stronger as it feels right now or rewards, double the crests, guaranteed item. The second part is coordination. Make it so if you interrupt the same mob a millisecond after somebody else you don’t get a cool-down. Reward learning instead of punishing it; if you try something out and fail the key is ruined; stop the depletion. Get rid of the count; most of my runs we have way too much count or we have to walk back and kill some more mobs after the last boss. Linear scaling, make every level feel like a similar increase.
I really like the idea of Road 1. I've done raiding in the past and I simply don't have the time to devote to that anymore but I still want my character to feel powerful for the things I am doing. Delves seem ideal for me to achieve that. It never used to be a huge deal back in the days before scaling but now it feels like nothing can be stomped without maximising gear as much as possible.
@@justin5002 in my opinion a split up of skills between raid, m+, pvp and maybe even delves/open world is long overdue. If a spec is too good in raid while it is average in M+ can nerved to the point it is average in raid and bad in M+. I think tuning and things like this should be split up at least per different instanced content. I'm not sure but it could be that there is already a split between pve and pvp. I can remember some discussion about it in the past.
The problem is always expectations doesnt meet reality then frustration. Wow does not set good expectations. The M+ score is a horrible measure of how good you are at M+. So people who can be perpetually carried through keys think they are better than they are then eventually get to a point where their score says they should be doing a certain key but they are not good enough to do it and should be practicing and getting better in lower keys. But the only feedback the system gives them is constantly failing at keys and they blame everyone else.
Mythic+ Difficulty is fine, especially after the +12 nerf. It's aspirational content, just like arena. Players need to rise to the challenge and try to improve with every depleted key. That said, the pug experience has tons of room for improvement. - Get deserter debuff working for M+ - Remove key depletion. Kicking people while they're down does not mesh with the rest of current blizz philosophy. - Introduce currency for finishing keys that is used for cosmetics or: low amount - reroll the key *to a dungeon of your choice* medium amount - protect your key from depleting (if blizz wants to hang onto depletion) high amount - upgrade your key This is the first season I participated in M+ since Legion, and I pugged my way to keystone hero in 3 weeks. Since I'm now in the top 10% rating, I don't want blizzard to do anything with difficulty, just remove the friction and risk for any keyholder, so people have a better chance at learning and getting better. I want better people to play with in pugs.
No way man. I want mythic gears for no effort please! Remove the timers so I can just coast through with no risk or reward or planning or optimization of my build or gear.
Getting subs is Blizzards primary goal and designing for the broadest player base feasible maximizes this goal. To this end, the pillars should be entirely ilvl equal and entirely separate, let the PLAYER decide what content they want to do. For the out gearing content fears and keeping the content hierarchy, make delve gear reduced ilvl or unusable in M+ and raids, ditto for M+ gear in raids. Let the pillars stand on their own and if it lacks participation rework it or let it die. This archaic mindset of it's an MMO you NEED to do group content is something Blizz should abandon for their own profits. Players that are: 1: pure solos, casually playing with friends, busy, skill capped, anxious about timers or depleting keys... get delves 2: group oriented, unable to dedicate to raiding, esport speed play oriented, seeking greater prestige and challenge... get M+ 3: group oriented, speed play oriented (enrage timers), seeking highest prestige and challenge... get raids 4: flexible, group or solo oriented, completionists, achieve hunters... get all three I see this covering a wide swath of the wow community, maintaining pillar hierarchy integrity, reducing out gearing from lower hierarchy content and reducing the need for a convoluted "track" based gearing system. I believe this would contribute to sub numbers, which is Blizz's ultimate goal. Constructive critiques welcome!
Remove the time-out timer and do a finish-timer instead.All the E-Sports jerks can play for a best time,and everyone else can do the keys.And do the same thing as in Delves by Tier.Problem solved.Im sitting on 4 tankspeccs and 3 healspeccs and I want do M+,but not like that.
So make the game just how you want it? Yeah good one. No, people like competition, testing their builds and skills. Timers mean you need coordination, teamplay, you have non-timed content but your selfishly want to make it 100% non timed.
@@Despond It's called variety. If you wanna be a tryhard, go be a tryhard in this mythic mode and flex on people. I've seen you in like 7 comments now talking down to others because they want a different way to play the game. Not everybody wants to be a sweaty try hard on every single game they play. I got away from playing PvP/Arenas because of that. I don't have the time to keep up and farm everything nowadays. I want a chill experience, Delves gave me a little bit of that and Mythics should have their own chill mode with reduced chance of gear drop or maybe reduced ilevel just for people to progress in their own way. I also think you need to log off and touch grass because you are hyper aggressive over this game.
So make the game just how you want it? You ask this question then do the exact same danm thing if you want competition guess what a count up timer showing how good you are does that without forcing everyone to conform to that timer but having that option. This whole idea that a forced timer is required for competition is BS of the highest degree if you want competition have it but stop shoving it down our throats.
I feel like bricked keys is literally the only problem with M+. Get rid of that, and a good portion of the toxicity goes away. Players will always be annoyed by other players messing up, but if there is less on the line when it happens, their reactions will be less severe.
Delves are great and shouldn’t directly compete with m+. The problem is the rewards from M+ aren’t scaling with difficulty. You can sleep walk through a t8 delve and get better gear than a +6 M+ key. M+ should have its rewards scaled up with its increased difficulty, but also delve rewards should scale beyond t8. T11 giving the same loot as T8 doesn’t make sense, especially with how easy t8 is.
"You can sleep walk through a t8 delve and get better gear than a +6 M+ key." I say this every time I see a comment like this, but you really need to take into consideration that different people have different skill-ceilings, that it would plot out on a bell-curve graph. It seems like people who say things like you just said are usually on the far end of the bell curse, expecting everybody else to be as "gud" as they are. (Apologies if you are not like that, but it seems that way every time I see someone say the same thing you just did.)
@@LetMeGetAUhhh Delves are pointless though. Anyone with skills/experience did their 8 delves on week 2 and never went back. Maybe I just can't relate because I'm just under m+ title range and far detached from the mole people and civilians, but to me there is no real point in delve people getting hero gear anyway, they don't use them to do hard content. A delve player with champion gear does the same dmg as a delve player with hero or myth gear; less than tank dmg, like an old grandma driving the speed limit in a lambo XD. People should focus on getting better before they focus on gear.
@@CosmicCleric Well, that is the point of different difficulty levels. It's not entirely unreasonable to expect similar difficulty of content that awards the same gear. With delves its a bit tricky though, clearing them on a mage vs clearing them on a blood dk is a massively different level of difficulty. That being said, current difficulty of tier 8 delves is definitely lower than a mythic +6 pretty much across the board I would say.
An option is to shift all the Puggers into delves instead of M+, but then they need a gear track and challenge that goes all the way up to Mythic track gear. That seems like a much more challenging problem vs just scaling M+ back to where it was in DF.
M+ timers should be for 2 and 3 chest. 1 chest should be default with no timer. Then bad players could get through it using time and learn rather than group getting disbanded.
100% agree. One chest for finishing, one chest for killing bosses/enemy forces in time. Maybe the Beat the timer chest has a guaranteed drop of gear for the +1/+2/+3 etc item level and the finishing quest has a chance of gear, dropped augment runes.
Agree. Simple solution is to provide a few gilded for high delves so can progress without M+. Maybe you get more gilded for high M+ than delves as the carrot but it’s not the only way
So you want to only solo, and get the best possible gear? rofl ok. WoW isn't for you then. Delves were not meant to be end game content that replaces group end game.
@@Despond Nope, I just want to progress my HC gear. Not bothered if I cannot get Myth gear if I don’t do Myth group content. Certainly happy to do in the +5 range but +8 with PUG as an average gamer can be hard and disappointing/frustrating. Difficult to find time with a group consistently with busy family lifestyle. Much easier to find 30min here or there to have some fun but then has to be PUG
8 and higher are considered mythic content when it comes to loot, as seen by the crests. The assumption that you can just go in and pug without a solid group, knowledge of the fights or preperation between the party players is just absured. If you take away timers, people would just camp for hero and cds on every pull. M+ is meant to be hard, It's meant to be a challenge, not free mythic gear. We're allowed to have hard content in the game. Not just content anyone can complete
Broadly agree but I do think there are some issues - not with the difficulty necessarily, but the design that pits players against each other and results in a lot of toxicity.
@@Junebug89 Agreed. They should think about removing depletion, or otherwise incentivise finishing a key even past the timer (I need the practice, so I can get better) either with somehow getting deserter debuff working in m+ or a currency for finishing keys that rewards cosmetics, paying currency to protect against depletion or even upgrading the key with a high amount of it.
Problem with M+ is that if youre a solo DPS, its damn near impossible to get invited to a group unless youre completely over geared and have an inflated IO for the key level youre applying to. People just want to have an easy time, so they dont want "inexperienced" players joining their keys. Just simply take the timer away, stop degrading the keys and keep the loot the same (and ffs can we get some gol d out of these?!) and just add invisible breakpoints or a scoring system that allow players to get a higher key. Another way to resolve this would be to take keys away entirely and add each dungeon to an in game system where it shows all of your highest runs and the scoring system would determine if you upgrade your key or not (how many times did you die, how much damage did you do, how many interrupts did you do etc.) Whoever hosts the group, you go off of their dungeon level and instead of you just farming crests in lower keys or whatever you can instead works towards an S+ ranking for that level of key or something.
Blizz nerfing tanks is low key a massive issue. Tanks in pugs were a huge safety blanket that were able to cover for and forgive a lot of issues. Blizz nerfed tanks and now in addition to there being far fewer tanks, there is now no ability for a skilled player to sort of take over and carry a key. I've played wow for nearly 20 years. This is the worst state that the game has been in except for 8.0 and 8.1. If you don't pug, you don't know. The majority pug and this season and the changes to the game have been atrocious
Eh... I think you might just be bad my friend. My friends who are tanks have no issues so... yeah. I don't know. They certainly have evened out the responsibility in the dungeons a bit, making DPS stand for more important things, and at low keys the healer has one hell of a bad time since everyone is so bad they eat all the avoidable damage, but tanks? Hmm. The problem is usually just skill.
@@Drasnierexcept I played tank for over 10 years. I dont have the same self sustain. Like... just numbers wise tanks dps was cut down a lot and tanks can't self sustain.
@@ternel I pugged as a tank to 2500. While I did not play the game since 9.1, and did not do any serious m+ since legion, I don't really notice the tank nerf. Get good, I guess? And I heavily agree with @Drasnier. I love that the content is so difficult right now, dps shitters can't progress past a certain point or they get better. And I enjoy good players in my groups.
Hard dungeons are cool. The timer and key degradation were always what kept people out and/or salty. It's not any "not actually playing the game" nonsense. Raiding is still popular with tons on mid level people. M+ design is just complete trash
Barely anyone raids. It's just boosters and boostees. There are only tens of thousands of people in the WORLD that are able and willing to complete something as pathethically easy as a heroic raid.
A cool solution would be to create world quests that are repeatable and also have a tier ladder to them. Just particular areas where increasingly harder mobs keep spawning if you persist, a place where you can just keep the grind going indefinitely with anyone who cares to swoop in and join. It would be the most casual thing ever but still a great social experience.
100000% this. Casuals are eating too good. Bring them back to classic times, just re-deaigned for proper gamers. Remove all difficulty other than Mythic from raid, and let m+ start from abaut +12 hard. And these 2 are the only content that drops epics, everyone else runs around in greena and blues
INFINITE% this (haha ;D) Yeah no most of the game is just far too easy, so the moment the game starts punishing them they shatter like glass under the pressure of even a single failure.
@@lZeero3035l I wasn't referring to "" M+ is too hard! / questing too easy!"" I was referring to how you get a new piece of gear every 3 minute while level'ing, can speedrun normal and heroic dungeon in less than 10 min ( and get 1, sometime 2 piece of gear from it), run delves for a garanteed 606 piece in 10 minute, fly around TWW and craft 590 with crest... then you start doing M+ and you have a 40% chance to get one piece of loot after a 30 min dungeon.
I think follower dungeons is genius for teaching dungeons in a low stress enviro - they could add DBM type explainers of difficult interrupts, unusual damages, etc
Scrap M+ and bring back challenge modes already 🥱 too many similar versions of the same content is boooooooooring. They should put more effort into Normal/Heroic dungeons. Imagine if they did that, we could have 15 per expansion like in Vanilla and BC.
Clearly, 15 is excessive and not the point. My "idea" isnt garbage but youre entitled to your own opinion. Fosucing DEV time on normal and heroic dungoens and actaully making heroics a training ground to teach raid mechanics isnt a bad idea. Then adding back challenge modes giving unique and cool class fantasy ensambles, weapons and mounts is just the cherry ontop.
WoWs issue is there are at this point way to many outlets for gearing that become irrelevant fast especially with the upgrading system. Take the gear aspect away from both M+ and Deleves and what do you get? Absolutely nothing. We should start demanding better cosmetics to make all this worth it. Id trade more raids and dungoens per season than useless content. All the saved dev time we can have dynamic aquatic and ground mounts already.
I agree that normal and heroic dungeons have lost their meaning, and I’m all for getting rid of M+, but challenge mode dungeons were annoyingly stressful. Imo they should take the Delve formula and tweak it for M+. Take away the time limit. Take away the punishment of key downgrades. Give dungeons variants, empowered packs, ambush encounters, that sort of thing.
you want solution? here it is: 1. M+ always rewards 3 items at the end regarding of time. Reward scaling ends at +8 Timed dungeons serve to boost rating to get an elite recolour of the tier set (just like PvP). Max rating for all rewards by timing all dungeons at +10. If you time the key, you get double upgrade materials (Crests and Stones) 2. Mythic raiding. NO ITEM REWARDS FOR KILLS (FF14 style). just upgrade materials Raiding gear drops end on Heroic. Elite Tier Recolour (get pieces as you progress with kills), Weapons, Mount (achievement), Title (achievement) The reasoning: regardless of level, M+ is a shitshow because of the rewards (number of items) being tied to the stupid timer. take the timer out of the equation and everyone will be much more relaxed about it. As for mythic raids, you get the prestige and the bragging rights. RWF guilds dont really utilise the mythic gear drops, besides the odd piece here and there, so they dont really need it during the race. There you go. 2 of the end game loop problems solved.
As a healer, i can say i loathe m+, well, pugging m+, when you come across players that rage quit at the 1st death, regardless of the fact that they won't move out of the aoes and stuff. Getting blamed for their every misstep.
The main problem is that Blizz over-corrected the difficulty and rewards for M+ massively while also handing out decent free gear from easy Delves. The gilded crests dropping from +8s now instead of +9s and up is a good first step (it's still up from +6 in the easiest season of Dragonflight, +6 back then would be the equivalent of a +4 now because of easier timers/dungeons and bullion gear), but the myth gear needs to start dropping from +9s instead of +10s and the challenger's peril needs to increase the timer penalty by +5 seconds instead of +10. Make some of the more strict timers more lenient in addition to that and heavily nerf the health of Stitchflesh's abominations and you have a good season. Still far more challenging than anything in Dragonflight, but a good season.
I’d gladly exchange an additional 10% health for half as many mechanics that can wipe a group. Even if they made kick casts a private aura you specifically need to kick/cc so you don’t overlap.
The core problem that separates M+ from delves and raids is M+ is the one format that does not allow you to practice. Certainly not at your own pace. A part of raiding is learning through failure. You wipe and talk it through as a team and try again. Rinse and repeat. Delves let you go at a pace you are conferrable with regardless of difficulty. M+ allows you to do neither. Sure you can argue " They should know the mechanics before going in" But if it was that simple we wouldn't have wipes in raids to begin with. Raid bosses are a solved strategy. For the most part. Point is no matter how much reading is done you NEED to put in the practice to truly understand it. M+ does not let this happen. M0 certain hasn't done a good job given the problem we're in right now. You HAVE to be able to go in giving it your 110% or the team is being held back. lower keys are a miserable experience because that's where the players are still trying to learn and practice these mechanics.
Gearing up with delves without doing Keys on the side is a sure way to not get invited into pugs because your ilvl says you want to do 8-10 keys, but you got 0 score indicating to group leaders that you have no clue what you are supposed to do in a key. To me it feels like that will be a huge point of frustration for people who want to continue on a meaningful progression journey.
2 changes that would make a massive difference. CC not resetting cast timers. They keep adding more cast/cc requirements and making it harder to meet them. Moving the additional death time to 10. Ideally that should be removed period, but a reasonable compromise at that level.
one of the issues people may be ignoring is that you are getting half the upgrades to your gear if you always get your cap on crests than you were getting last season. also, they should have kept gilded at +6
Remove the timer for gear but keep the timer for ranking. For instance no matter what you get 2-3 chests for loot. But your timer still ticks for leaderboards and score. So everyone wins. If a group wants to do. 15 with 500+ deaths. They fucking earned it. Let them have it.
In my opinion some changes should be made. Make a seasonal Mythic bracket for those wanting to be hyper competitive like you do in Arenas. Give us a normal Mythic + that gives people steady progression at a slower pace. This expac, M+ experience has been nothing but toxic. People instantly rage quit if something messes up, you can't even get groups. I'm more than geared for M0's and applied to seven different groups and got denied from all of them instantly. It is wild to see how people are treating this game. Make keys have zero timers until +5 or +7. Let people get their gear up until "end game" and then make them work for the final gear push. Or make Mythics not have a timer in general but have a "soft timer" for finishing and you can give people the chance at posting their fastest time like GRifts in Diablo. Give you more flexing when you beat someone by a fraction of a second. Another thing would be, give another chest for finishing in a certain time frame. The maybe chance of gear is annoying. I ran five mythics at +3 and I got two pieces of gear, none of them the priority stats. There are just too many variations of gear stats to have this much gating of gear. On another note, you should have some form of weighted option for the Great Vault. Like I've had the same cloak since I hit 80 because I've had ZERO cloaks drop for me. I would love the option to have the option to choose what gear slot I can choose to have a slightly higher drop rate like they do in Gacha games. Especially since again, you have so many variations of stats. The chance of me getting my cloak with the stats I need are STUPIDLY low and I just do not want to continue to play knowing I gotta reset the grind again and again.
I dunno, I feel like Blizz's only motivation is to maintain the illusion that you'll be getting something new, outside of a new store bundle/expansion pack, package.
It’s ironic. Blizzard has been working on this psychology of the gameplay stuff since wow’s alpha. In early builds, you got an XP slowdown debuff for playing too long, but people didn’t like it so they re-worked it into that slow XP rate being the default, but you could earn a bonus (rested buff) by taking a break.
that macro /target zek'vir /cast rebuke made all the difference. the special feeling of downing the bastard as pally is that it is MELEE interrupt. you are cooked if he gets off a heal because you left his immediate hit box.
Yeah, my goal is heroic raiding. I don't particularly want to do M+ (so I'm quite happy with delves letting me completely avoid that, the timers and extra mechanics are 🤢). I want my Heroic raid to remain at a heroic difficulty throughout. I have literally 0 desire to ever set foot in a mythic raid, because I don't want to deal with that level of perfection required for the execution of that difficulty level. I enjoy the larger form of 10+ people in a group working in sync. 5 mans don't scratch the same itch.
The events/delves loop is missing a significant necessary element that the, to me, obvious inspiration of gw2 has. It needs those meta events. The rare world events that occur much less frequently than normal events like the theater, and span the entire zone, have much higher demands for completion, possibility of failure, and the missing top tier rewards that raiding and m+ has. Example, picture the beledar shifts as a real event where void forces with bosses attack the arathi points of interest and need all players in the zone to pitch in to defend them and converge afterward to fight a void leviathan boss. Instead we have a random rare who dies in 5 seconds if people don’t intentionally hold dps to let others tag it. Wow such scary void state
I skipped the Dragon Flight expansion but jumped into this one thinking I would be learning everything with everyone else. First dungeon I joined the day it launched I was literally dragged through the dungeon. They all ran as fast as possible dragging mobs on top of bosses and running to the next. I stop for a split second just to loot and the pres evoker used the ability to pick me up and fly me back to the group. I left not learning a thing except run. No idea what the bosses did, they were stacked in with the adds. I was so confused and said "nope". I have been doing delves every since. I'm terrified to try a M+. I learn by doing and watching. Can't do that in a M+. Your suppose to know everything before you even sign up for it. I don't have a blizz authenticator so it won't let me put a description in when trying to just make my own M0 and say something like "learning group". I can't find a friendly guild that would be willing to take me through and let me learn. I am officially a delve mole.
I started playing again 1 day after the expansion. Leveled up, got geared and am now m+ 10 while not even pushing it. Geared to 627 ilvl as of today and having a wonderful time.
