The Metaphysics of Buffyverse Souls 

i'd always been in the camp that this was just the writers kinda screwing with the lore to work with the characters the way they wanted, but this explanation actually makes so much sense!

I wish you touched on Spike a bit more in this video because he really highlights that even his impulses have always been aligned to be more prosocial compared to angel. Spike, before becoming a vampire, loved his mother and wanted to share that love with his attractions. After becoming a vampire, he still loved his mother and wanted to love his new vampire family. And when he realized not having a soul was becoming a detriment to the only person in his life that he cared about, he went through hell to get it back. And when he did get it back, his road to redemption wasn't to rekindle a sense of good, but to remember why he did good things, even the few good things he did as a vampire. Being a vampire blinded him from what he cared about on a deep level, leaving him to chase the highs of life. As he described, the world just became one big party to him. I think this is why Angel resented Spike on such a deep level. Because, at every stage of his soul occupancy, he never had that natural drive for good the same way Spike did. The fact he did the reverse of what Spike did when he got his soul back says it all. He needed to work and suffer to be the angel we know him as. And he's not mad at Spike because he didnt earn his place, but because he wanted someone else to be as bad as him, so he could at least feel there was some justification to his evil; that anyone could have been as bad as him. But as spike points out in their fight, the only reason spike was as bad as he was is because angelus taught him to be that way. There were things, like cheating on drusilla, that he had a gut feeling and understanding was bad. But that, along with many other things, were drowned out by angelus. This contrast between spikes' natural good and angels learned good is very important to their characters and what it means to have a soul. It isn't about how you got good, but staying good once you get there

I always thought of it in a manner on "conditions". Season 2&3 of Angel explain what exactly a vampire is, which is a bottom of the barrel demon more akin to a virus. It only exists as a primal predator, but once it moves into a human body, the vampire gains its memories and personality. Liam was a man who loved indulging in the primal urges. He also had a bit of aggression because of his father. When he died, the vampire entered the body and gained Liam's memories, becoming Angelus. Since a vampire is already primal, its behavior was amplified. When he got Liam's soul, it was as a part of a curse, becoming Angel. As Angel, he frequently says that he remembers EVERY misdeed he's ever taken part in. I believe the curse amplifies his bad memories and basically gives him clinical depression. William Pratt was a weak man with a great deal of love and frustration in not living life the way he wanted. Becoming a vampire amplified those desires and unleashed his anger. Willfully regaining his soul allowed him to function as a normal person who has regrets, but can deal with them.

The difference could also be in the different methods used to ensoul Spike and Angel. Angelus was a monster through and through. There wasn't a shred of humanity in him so the idea of getting his soul back would be a nightmare to him, thus it was used as a punishment for all the evil acts he'd committed. Spike, on the other hand, still retained some human qualities after he was sired, such as his love for both his mother and Drusilla. He demonstrated that he was also capable of empathy and realising when he had done wrong, which is what led to him going to get his soul back. That's the difference, Spike wanted his soul back, Angelus didn't.

1:50 I might be wrong but I think Angel said that when he was cursed for the first time his memories of who he was as a vampire didn’t surface instantly, so I always assumed that if he had stayed alive for longer he would eventually remember everything ‘Angelus’ did to Buffy.

Fan of Angel. Since 1999. I'm 38 in 2023. Amazing character analysis. Thank you.

Great video. Something I would add, if I may: Angel went from blood-thirsty, animalistic beast to having a soul within the span of a heartbeat. Spike spent several years with a chip in his skull that zapped him every time he tried to commit violence on a human - that coupled with trying to change himself for Buffy, he had a good head start on Angel. Something else that sets them apart is that Angelus had his soul forced upon him, Spike sought his out and fought for it in order to be a better person.

You should make more buffy/angel vids, I would watch the crap out of them!

love it! Also Spike already made the choice to have a soul and being kind of good so is not that mayor change with soul

I could listen to you just talk about this character for hours.

Masterful analysis. Now for the love of god, please make more content about this incredible show and the characters that dwell within.

This is great. I have only one (I don't know if it's a complaint or an opinion) thought here... people don't change every five, ten years. Well, they change, physically, and maybe mentally realizing things, BUT, they don't grow, unless something catastrophic happened, OR they become sooo radically aware of self. Radically aware is rare. Most people don't want to deal with the shadow parts of themselves. So they tend to ignore any pain, dissatisfaction or unpleasantness until it's too late, or too buried. Growth takes some serious thought work. it's an active thing... Most people don't do that kind of heavy lifting unless forced or divinely guided. If it happens, most of the time, it's an accident or an epiphany.

rat boy angel will always b peak for me 😪

Just found this channel and i think this might be one of my favorite takes on the Angelus soul questions I've ever heard. Just having a soul doesn't automatically make you good is something i honestly think a lot of people need to understand in their actual lives. Please make more buffy content you have s singular insight i could definitely hear more of.

I really hope you make a vid some day that’s about Cordy’s character development and the misfire that is season 4. You make some genuinely amazing vids. Keep up the good work!

I'd be keen to see a video on redemption arcs after seeing this. After your brilliant analysis of Catra's arc, I am especially curious about your views on Faith.

Awesome video! I often thought about the 100 years of remorse vs. Spike moaning in a basement for 2-3 weeks and then being fine argument as ... an unfair comparison. When you think about it. Angel underwent the biggest changes over the shortest period of time (from rat-boy angel to champion of the helpless "Angel") when he was with Buffy. Following her example, if you will. Spike was able to undergo a similarly fast change because he had Buffy.

I don't think that Spike is at all the same person with or a without a soul. To see the difference, one must compare S7 Spike to S2 Spike, not to S6 Spike. The pain chip reduced Spike's aggression towards humans starting with S4, but it didn't really change his personality. He simply found other ways to exploit and hurt humans instead of killing them. The only reason Spike fought demons and helped Buffy was to impress her, so she would have sex with him, not because he genuinely wanted to fight evil. Only the soul allowed Spike to think, feel, and care about others as a human being and not just a selfish, calculating monster.

You are soo good at analysis! I loved this! (I think Angel only had 100 years of soul, not 200?)

The best explanation I've heard is from Ian of @Passion of the Nerd: Spike was a poet and passionate and a mommy's boy. Angel was a Chad , drunk Layabout with no interest beyond that. The Demon took him over completely as opposed to Spike It's why in Season 2 of Buffy, the judge couldn't burn him, but could Burn spike and Drusilla

So while I disagree with chunks of that, this was entertaining and an interesting theory. And I loved the Theseus part.

This is brilliant, i’m mind blown 🤯

If he didn't remember what Angelus did, then he couldn't feel remorse or grow from it.

I also think it’s important to consider Spike and his chip. Just because Spike isn’t a big bad anymore doesn’t mean he’s not still affected by his soul. and he still had a lot of affection for dru, just like he did for buffy, but he expressed it differently. just because his moral growth is stunted doesn’t mean he isn’t capable of learning things, like how to be more of what he thought buffy wanted. in the buffy guides from passion of the nerd, ian (narrator) repeatedly states how spike’s actions in s5/s6 are frequently selfishly motivated. they might be good/better/more-aligned-with-the-schoobies choices, but the motivation doesn’t change. at least not til s7, as seen in the bedroom scene in s7e20.

I'm a bit late to this, but I'm also a Buffy-phile. Something to keep into consideration about spike is that before he got his soul he had that inhibitor chip in his head that basically enforced moral decisions as far as his physical ability to deal with humans. That informed a lot of his decisions overtime, and for so long that actually became habit,2 full season (in-show years), plus a chunk of season 4. He had more time to make it to who he was before he actually got his soul than Angelus did when he got his. Yes, Spike was a little Punch-Drunk when he got his soul because he had the whole guilt thing going on for him, but instead of the psychological pain of a person with a soul-killing, he had to deal with a physical pain that was beyond his ability to cope with, but I think his enforced morality gave him a head start.

Your explanation is the best I've heard!

Great theory! It explains so much in such a logical way. Thank you!

I always thought Angelus being a separate entity from Angel as a pleasant fiction that Angel likes to hide behind. Angelus is him with limited choices and ways of responding to things, but even sans soul it's still his personality. One of the major reasons it took him so long to become Angel is because his personality would've never _chosen_ to experience the hardship of getting his soul back. So having it forced back in was an even more traumatic event. Liam was a simple and selfish person. And his demon was the same thing. It was the traumatic trauma of being re-ensouled that forced him to confront his mental make-up and change. And even that took him a damn long time. Mainly because unlike Spike..he didn't choose to change. And he didn't have a good support network around him to help him facilitate that change. That's one of the main things that separates Angel from Spike. William was a more odd and complex individual. He would probably be romantic enough to choose to go through the pain of getting his soul back for love. And that's why the demonic entity in Spike also would. It's the same personality, it just the thing driving it is demonic. And Spike demon having the navigate that personality along with having many of his baser impulses curtailed by his chip...well..unsouled Spike would make some very interesting choices. And when he made the boldest one...Angel had paved the way of knowing what's that's like. And he had Buffy around to give him a chance. All Angel had was Darla. Poor bastard. Though Darla did have him when she was being affected by Conner's soul. Pretty much every member of the Fanged Four got affected by a soul, besides Drusilla. And....I'm kinda happy about that. I think it would be kinder to stake Drusilla instead of giving her back her soul. She's been tortured enough.

I always thought that Angelus was a separate personality like James McAvoy in Split because of that scene where they fought each other, but when he was reensouled, Angelus was put back into Angel's, so I thought that was integration. After watching this, I think I was wrong.

Amazing! Beautifully said Sara! Oh, by the way, Ian sent me. ;-)

Never thought about Angel as being Angelus w/ a soul and Liam being dead since being bitten. Good vid.

This is really great! (:

this was a really beautiful breakdown, deeply appreciative!

The reason there’s Angel and Angelus and no Spike-elus is because of how long Angel had a soul for and who Angelus was. Liam was a hedonist, someone who sought pleasure in every form, and this is the strongest driving factor in his unlife. Angelus could best be described as an artist, with death and destruction as his muse and the destruction of human beings as art to him. The more insane he can drive someone, the more of a masterpiece he sees them as. As Angel himself said, he was only in it for the evil, with it being everything to him. When he got his soul, Liam was still dead, Angelus just got a conscious. It took 100 years of wallowing in self loathing and hatred that formed Angel as we know him, because helping Buffy and fighting the good fight gave him a way to channel that self hatred. Spike isn’t all that different from who he was in life. William was a poet and loved his mother more than anything, with love being his most defining characteristic, and this trait followed him into his unlife. It was because he saw Drusilla was attracted to the darkness of Angelus that he decided to become the worst vampire he can be, but he still stayed as true to himself as he could. Drusilla sired him, but it was Angelus’ teaching and influence that made Spike a monster. As love changed Spike into a monster, love also made him want to become a man when he fell in love with Buffy. He wanted to become the person she deserved, so he willingly fought for and obtained his soul, but even before that he changed, forming connections with both Willow and Dawn and seeing both as something like sisters and trying to protect them for their sake, not just for Buffy, especially Dawn. When he got his soul back, it didn’t just give him a conscious, it amplified the love and self loathing that was already there. Buffy’s influence helped him move on from the guilt faster than Angel did, but the soul didn’t change his entire personality since there wasn’t much difference between William and Spike when it came to defining factors, but souled Spike is a combination of William and pre soul Spike, having William’s ability to form genuine connections and love in a pure way and Spikes confidence and maturity, while retaining his love to fight but not seeking it out to hurt anyone anymore. He’s still willing to kill if needed, but he’s not seeking it out anymore. Being a vampire wasn’t about hurting and death to Spike, but instead it was one big party, which is why he didn’t gain a new personality like Angel(us) did

Dude this was brilliant. You just assembled 10 puzzle pieces I already had lined up in my head. Loved it.

Loved this take 👌👌💕 Just subbed :3

Beautiful work Sara.

This is the best explanation of this I've ever heard!

I love that you make the point about self-interest. My theory is that vampires basically operate on pure selfishness. I never thought about the angle of free will though, and an inability to change. It makes much more sense, especially when you consider how long Angel had his soul. I personally don't see Angel and Angelus as all that different - or rather I see them on the same level as Spike and William. Angel even hints that they take their personality from the human. Angelus was very riled up over the feelings that Buffy gave Angel, and I think he aggressively wanted to desecrate Angel's memory of loving Buffy. But outside of that, he and Angel share a liking for artistry. To me, there is a bigger difference between Liam and Angel than Angel and Angelus. Think about Liam dancing drunkenly on a table, then cut to Angel awkwardly singing "Oh, Mandy." Liam was a party boy, and Angel grew up from that. Your theory that free will enables change sounds like a good reason why. Angel can't unsee what Angelus has done, and decades of reflection has made him a different person than Liam, a different person than the person he was when the demon took over. In other words, Liam was an artsy, party boy, Angelus was the demon forged from that personality, Angel tried to fit in with vamps as an ensouled vampire, but ultimately his memories of Angelus' experience changed and sobered him. William was constrained by society and wanted to break free. That's the personality that the demon had to work with. Once he is turned, the demon allowed him to relinquish his inhibitions and be who he wanted to be... but evil. William did not want to live by societies rules. When Spike was chipped, we got to see the person William was (or wished he could be perhaps) deep down without the constraints of society, and without a constant evil persona. Once he gets his soul, he is essentially in the same place as Angel was when he first got his. But they have different views on what happened to them. Spike sought his soul on purpose, out of pure selfishness, wanting to be someone Buffy could be capable of loving. Once ensouled, he saw himself for what he truly was - a victim. He understood why he shouldn't pursue Buffy, and stopped doing so. He also understood that there was still value in walking your own path separate from societies rules, which may explain part of his attraction to Buffy, who walked her own path of a slayer instead of listening to what everyone told her she should do. Unlike Angel, he does not blame himself for what the demon did. To do so would be to do what people expect him to do, but he also clearly sees things philosophically different than Angel does. So, Spike is not on the same evolutionary path that Angel was, and will not land in the same place. Liam, Angelus, and Angel all value artistry and expression. William, Spike, and souled Spike all value freedom, poetry, and experiencing the world. Their fundamental values are all the same throughout their various life states. Their paths and their places in them are different, between each life state and between one another, because they are very different people who view and experience the world differently. What happened to them was traumatic, and people deal with trauma in different ways.

Great exposition about living and learning

I hadn't thought about it like that, but it does make the most sense.

Thanks for sharing this! So many interesting ideas here. Had not heard the ship analogy before, but it's fascinating.

THIS. BLEW. MY. MIND.

You really should read The Code of the Whedonverse - The Elect and the Damned which differentiates Spike and Angel using the Myers-Briggs index. Angel/Angelus's values are all rational - he thinks, he senses, he judges. Spike's are all instinctive - he feels, he intuits, he perceives.

In the S4 finale, Spike is ready to watch Buffy get killed, almost gleeful about it, but then has that "oh bugger" look on his face and helps instead. This is why I don't think the whole 'the soul means you get to choose' explanation is definite. Unless it means the demon part of Spike was the one choosing to help her, which would also mean it's as much the demon who falls in love with her, but that never really gets answered or followed up on because Soul Spike is pretty much the same as S6 Spike (just a bit less 'icky' for lack of a better word).

This was how I always viewed the Angel/Angelus dichotomy. Spike has said it best: "He always was a bit of a drama queen." To use your analysis of the continuum from Liam to Angelus to Angelus with a soul to Angel to back and forth again, there is one consistency of Angel in all his incarnations as being an extreme person in beliefs and actions. As Liam, he lives a life of excess by overindulging in every vice possible. Living every day like it's his last without seemingly caring for much because he will never have his father's approval. Then he becomes a vampire and what does he do. Slaughters the town he lives in and murders his entire family. And then goes on to make a name for himself as the most sadistic and depraved vampire in recorded history. He is cursed with a soul and after trying and failing to fall back on what he knew for so long (wanton cruelty), he avoids people as much as possible for 100 years give or take in a reclusive depressive state. Then he's called upon and introduced to Buffy and sees a pathway to use his situation to better the world and attempts to be a champion. He loses his soul again, regresses (as you phrased it), and proceeds to try to make up for any noble thing he tried to do by attacking what made him feel human and generally causing destruction, concluding with him attempting to destroy the world (an almost middle finger really at himself; "if Angel was trying to make the world a better place, I'll respond with trying to tear it all down"). He's reensouled and naturally goes through the guilt process again of new sins and body counts. I could go on but I think I'm making the point of whether he's good, evil, or just a drunk jerk, Angel has always been an extreme person. Which for me is why Angel goes to this extreme at times of referring to Angelus almost as a separate person. It never bothered me so much when other characters did it but when Angel himself did it, it drove me nuts. I rationalize in my own headcanon as a way for Angel to compartmentalize his two opposing sides: the side that wants to do good and the part that wants to tear it all down. But neither exists without the other. When Angelus returns in Buffy Season 2, his immediate actions are informed by his behavior as Angel. When he regains his soul again, Angel's actions are again coming to terms with it. It's one reason why, for all it's flaws, in Angel Season 4 when he loses and regains his soul again, Angel has a profoundly different response. It's not just for the sake of keeping the story going by not having Angel moping and feeling bad for a few episodes but because Angel has a better understanding of this dichotomy within himself after having gone through this back and forth for so long. And granted, depending on the writer and the specific story being told, Angel would go back and forth when referring to his time as Angelus in the first or third person. But I personally took it as, they are one and the same.

Wow, this was incredible. A great explanation for a great character.

"In fact, post-souled Angel is actually more similar to post-souled Spike. It just happened a long time ago." wOW mind blown. Seriously, I've put some thought into this over the years and felt like I had a good grasp of the issue, but I never made this exact connection. Great job with this video.

OMG, I'm rewatching (and also watching the series back to back for the first time) the series right now and that's something I've been thinking about lot (that Angel's soul is a very big part of the characterization but Spike doesn't have one but are good and sensitive anyway). I have just started season 6 so I will come back and finish this video later, but yeah cool that it's not only me..

I really love the way you broke this down.....You are an incredibly smart person, love your videos so far. I am a big buffy fan so I came across your video on season 6 and really enjoyed the way you break it down. I wish I could be that poetic with my word as you seem to be. Anyway great job please make more.

There’s people who use drugs and alcohol to excuse any behaviour and don’t care, that’s angel. Others like spike who despite doing bad things, never want to hurt people along the way regardless what they’re going through.

MOAR Buffy content please please please!

I actually think there are a few major differences between Soulless and Ensouled Spike. Soulless Spike had an external moral compass in Buffy. While he was capable of making selfless decisions like helping the scoobies patrol or looking after Dawn, he still had a sadistic streak left in him ex. Watching the demon gang raid houses, trying to feed off a human, etc. He loved Buffy as best as he could but he was still overall selfish, arrogant, possessive, and toxic. Ensouled Spike genuinely wanted to be a good man. He was more humble, laid back, selfless, and romantic. When he was under control of the first, he wanted to die if it meant sparing others. He loved Buffy enough to put her happiness ahead of his own.

One thing ive never understood is how angelous is more dangerous considering that im aware hes never taken out a slayer but spike has done two but hes not as feared as angelous

You: I've been in the Buffy fandom for a while. Me: Lol Your YT name is literally FIVE BY FIVE Takes. -Nicholas Cage You don't say meme- Lol. I really like your videos and I'm glad we seem to be a party of several of the same fandoms.

Yes. In Buffy becoming a vampire takes your baseline personality and removes all empathy and inhibitions. The perfect example of this is Spike and Harmony. It's him without self control. He blames himself for the actions (and so too does Spike) because they recognize that "crazy" in them is part of them and they are responsible for making decisions to stop it. Its the existential battle we all face between good and evil within ourselves. We are all capable of great evil, if we stop paying attention to our actions and act without care.

Oh that’s fascinating and makes so much sense

Very impressive analysis!

The way i see it,, I think its because of spike having the chip for 3 seasons he soulless was able to learn his ways, - through working with buffy, learned his ways enough to go fight for his soul,,, Angelous learned nothing, got his soul forced on to him as punishment, Angel now and then dose say things like he would miss it and also struggles with it like dark angel,, Since having his soul he was struggling with who he was his morals Uptill meeting buffy,, buffy and angel team only ones named him angel as we do, Everyone kept naming him angelus,, Deep down he still angelus,, So essentially he's two people in one. Kinda dexter like similar situation,, angelus/dark passenger Thats the differences I see between spike and angel.

The writers had very little care for continuity of the lore, and rewrote and retconned many things in service of the plot at the expense of making any sense. The definitive answer to what a vampire is and how the soul functions appears to be the following, after a general overview of Buffy, Angel and the comics: • Maloker was a giant, bat-like Old One, pure demon. He bit and mixed his blood with a human, infusing his essence into the human. • The human died from blood loss. • The corpse of the human was magically changed by Maloker’s essence, giving it the physiology of what we know as a “vampire” - which is to say, a hybridised mutation of a human body with Maloker’s essence. But the body is nevertheless still dead. • Any other dimension that is able to link with “our” world (through gateways like the Hellmouth) allows for the transportation of demons across dimensions. • Any demon that is able to transverse into “our” world is able to enter the corpse of the mutated human, and possess and reanimated it, much like a puppeteer and puppet. This is what vampires in Buffy and Angel are - the corpses of mutated humans that are reanimated by a third-party demon. • A soul being restored to these “vampire” corpses dislodges the demon that is in possession of the corpse, and installs the human soul as the entity that possess and reanimated the body. It’s both convoluted *and* straight forward.

I'd also argue that Angelus after Angel is different from Angelus after Angel in a few key ways, because he has all these memories of being Angel. It makes him so much more resentful of who he was which he takes out on Buffy by tormenting her in season 2. I don't think Angelus before Angel would have tried to destroy the world, for example. He was just an evil party boy. Angelus after Angel was fighting a war against good.

Before starting this video I just want to say I have always wanted people to discuss this topic and am glad to have come across this video. I've never understood why vampirism is an unstoppable ticket to hell. They've made it clear vampirism removes the soul, and losing one's soul takes away their ability to do/choose good; so why are they held responsible for their actions? In Angel's case, he didn't know exactly what was gonna happen, but knew he'd be getting up to no good with Darla, so I would argue he deserved the damnation. But Spike was just bonked over the head and turned, poor guy didn't ask for any trouble and yet he has to face the punishment for actions he made without definitive free will. Just my 2 cents. Angel as a show is very interesting with its moral philosophy, but lacks in theological philosophy to back it up

Personally, I quite like the way Buffy explains in season 2 what being a vampire REALLY entails to a former friend desiring to be one. The person you were prior to becoming a vampire ceases to exist. Your body becomes a shell for a demon to fill whilst gaining your memories. This is why a vampire will instantly betray loved ones because the demon inside the person has no logical reason to care about anyone. Granted, Spike changes even without a soul to guide him due to his unhealthy obsession with Buffy. I have a few theories as to why Angelus is LEAGUES above Spike in terms of evil: 1. William was pitiable in life but Liam was straight up pathetic. William was lonely and had serious love for his mother whereas Liam was incredibly impulsive and cared for no one but himself. This probably made it easier for the demon to seize control. 2. Angelus was pretty consistently treated like an enemy (which he deserved) whereas Spike was thrown in enough situations where he was forced to bond with the Scooby gang. 3. Given the spectrum of demons we see in the Buffyverse, it is highly likely Liam just had poor luck of the draw and got the worst possible demon imaginable to steal his body. Just my opinion though.

What's your take on that world war 2 soldier that Angel bit? I always liked the theory that he had some semi ensouled status.

Vampires are an analogy for a person lost on drugs or to an addiction and a vampire with a soul is a user in recovery.

The reason why Angel/Happy Pill Angeluslite/Angelus were split personalities was because as a Human When he was Human called Liam while he was not a murderer or person that sexually assaulted people as far as we know he was a person that did not take his familial duties seriously aside from his younger sibling and loved to start brawls with people and get drunk and hammered and sleep around which society viewed as sinful for the most part so while he was not downright sadistic like Angeluslite Also Known As Happy Pill High Angel or Angelus he was not really much for honor and respect either around most people. Now as Angel he while he could he agressive he did not like to fight too much he stared out feeding on rats and other creatures in the sewers, sewage, tunnels, tubes, slides, caves, coves, and bridges to try to atone and to stay under the radar as well as to keep his darker urges under control then later on decided to do more heroic things with the aid of Whistler motivating him and also because he fell for Buffy upon first sight and liked what she represented. Now in terms of Spike he as a Human was a hopeless romantic lovesick puppy poet and was also a Mammas boy yet most of society made fun of him and constantly teased and mocked him he was creepy with his obsession for certain people he romantically loved even if his heart was in the correct spot up. Then he immediatly fell for Drusilla upon seeing for for the first time and wanted to be with her forever for eternity and have immortality and infinity with her and felt that way once he fully became a vampire and still felt love for his Mom so yeah. As a Vampire all the pent up anger he held inside as a Human against most people eventually came out later and he passed the time by using rail road spikes on people and seeking out combat even ones he knows he might lose. But he was capable of doing semi selfless things even soulless and without a chip like for his Mom, Drusilla, Joyce, Dawn, And Buffy even in a twisted way. For some extent he even cared for Xander, Willow, Tara, And Anya later on granted those ones where while he was chipped unlike the others I mentioned that he showed care for beforehand. Now once Spike fought for a soul to get Buffys love mainly and got one he had lots of PTSD and guilt ridden things going on. For a while he kept to himself and did not like to show weakness to most people especially out in public then with Buffys guidance and hands she helped him become more heroic not just for her and a few select people but for general people and not just when a apocalypse may be happening or that he would get paid for it. Plus he did not have a soul forced and cursed on him with the true happinness or another curse like Angel did so yeah.

I think it has more to with the life they lived when they were human ,liam was a massive disappointment to his father when he was alive physically beat him and probably had massive feelings of hate and resentment he bottled up that only amplified when he became a vampire with no moral compass to hold him back he murdered his mother and sister to hurt his father, before confessing to think someone so small and pathetic made him feel the way he did made him feel like he wasnt a man etc .. whilst spike was a mummys boy even tho he was an underachiever he still had his mummy. Angels other half is such a coin flip in comparison its probably this reason why he split off into dual personality.

I think the reason Spike and Angel are so different when it comes to the soul is because Angel was cursed with his soul and Spike sought his soul because he wanted to be a better man, after being neutered by the initiative he started to see the value in humanity because vampires (in the show) can feel like they can love they can hate all the emotions are there just without a sense of morality spike as a human before he was sired by Drusilla was a mama's boy who wrote bloody awful poetry hence William the bloody and his day tonight from Spike as a vampire much like Angel before he was turned and when he became a vampire at least that's how I rationalized it in my head watching the show growing up so the way I view it is the soul is more an allegorical representation of a moral compass

*00:44** Wait! That's Anya's demon friend. Christ its been too long since I have seen this show. I watched it religiously as a kid.*

Superb video!!!

Imagine if Drucilla got her soul. She'd be even more broken. Good God would she be broken. Though wouldn't always make a difference with depending on the vampire. Like Zachary Kralik, he was like Norman Bates before he was turned. Although I guess you can argue that with the fact that Angel is not Liam. I don't know if it was really clear if he had Liam's soul, they've always just said he was cursed with A, soul

I think it's really depend on the context of the mindset/personality of the human before being turned into a Vampire. Liam was a man full of vices and hatred, and thus Angelus was was more akin to this personality. Returning Liam to his body and see what his new persona did was part of the curse, so he was a "new" repented Liam, ashamed of his past as both the old Liam and Angelus and in conflict with both of them (hence why he rejected BOTH the Liam and Angelus names). He wanted to be a brand new persona and becoming one with Angelus was somebody both of them refused. William instead was a genuine good guy turned into a Vampire against his will. So under the surface of the violent Spike (convienently suppressed for a while by the Initiative chip), there was still the "good" background of William, and their similarities allowed both Spike and William to want to "merge" into a single personality without major conflicts, when Spike decided he wanted to have his soul back.

Wow. Great job 👍🏻

I've always thought the reason why Spike and Angel act so different with a soul is the manner of which they got their souls back. Angel was placed under a curse, while Spike fought to have his soul willingly returned to him.

Great video and take but I’ve always had a different understanding. To me, the demon just amplifies the inner person and their wants, so for angel it’s his anger at his father and for spike it’s his want to be loved. Specifically with the soul though, I’ve always felt it was the difference of how they got their soul. For angel it was a punishment, given to him against his will, where he hid from civilization and eventually lied to himself to create a separate persona in an effort to deal with his own actions. With spike he knowingly fought to get it back, and was more at peace with the monster he was, taking accountability for it and trying to move forward.

Angel said in season one of buffy the vampire slayer that when a human is turn in to vampire a demon take's over has the memories of that human it think's and act's like a twisted version of a human like Angelus is the twisted version of Angel when Angel got his soul back for the second time he didn't immediately remember the action's of Angelus but after about 100 year's in a hell dimension he would have remembered i agree Spike having a soul for a few week's like Angelus re-ensoulment for the first time and the soul doesn't make a person Is automatically good the soul give's a person a ability to feel remorse and empathy

My brain is getting tangled into knots trying to apply this philosophy to Harmony. So I guess that Harmony is basically unchanged as a vampire because, as a human, she was already emotionally immature and incapable of empathy? Except that now she doesn't have any compunction about killing. But she does try to resist killing/feeding off of Cordelia in Disharmony...so there's already some level of morality. And she joins the "good" team by working for Angel in season 5. I think she has a line somewhere along the way about how being a vampire makes it really difficult for her to distinguish right from wrong. But she tries. So a soul is...what, exactly? Just emotional intelligence? Some people lack that anyway. Is a soul just the ability to be selfless? But everything we do as people is selfish...even acts of "good" are selfishly motivated. On a long enough timeline, is any vampire capable of becoming just as moral, empathetic, and altruistic as any human is capable of being? Then Buffy slaying them is kind of problematic, isn't it? The other dimension of a vampire's "evil" is that they all have different definitions of what it means to be evil. Spike is simply selfish, wants to fit in and make a name for himself and has no problem doing terrible things to accomplish that goal, while Angelus enjoys torment for its own sake; he finds it fulfilling to murder and torture. He literally wants to destroy the entire world. In Conversations with Dead People, Holden says that being a vampire makes him feel "like I'm connected to a powerful all-consuming evil that's gonna suck the world into a fiery oblivion". So there is some objective, if intangible, entity that vampires appear to serve in their acts of evil. This is different from the standard mythology of vampires, where they feed on humans for sustenance; we know from AtS that a vampire can go without blood for months (Angel at the bottom of the sea) without suffering too many adverse effects, at least not physically, so do Buffyverse vampires even NEED blood to survive, or do they simply desire it? Is it purely symbolic? Sort of a Satanic (or whatever) parody of Christians drinking the blood of Christ? Simply another act of "evil"? Can vampires turn away from this seemingly inherent connection to that "all-consuming evil" that Holden referenced? Is Spike serving this evil by simply being selfish? I guess I'm sort of unsatisfied by the Buffyverse's inability to ever really explain, in coherent terms, EXACTLY what a vampire is and why they are the way that they are and how much control they really have over that. Which wouldn't be a big deal except that I can't help but feel like these unanswered (or partially answered) questions sort of undermine the entire premise/metaphor of the show(s).

A show that prioritizes emotional truth over plot consistency I like my shows the way l like my life 🙏

They’re no longer the same person anymore once the metamorphosis kicks in. Their appearances changes. Everything changes. I know this.

So you’re saying that we can’t really compare souled/desouled Angel and Spike because we haven’t seen what Spike is like after a hundred years with a soul? Does anyone have any ideas about whether Spike will be different or not, and if so how?

Yeah, I’m just going to think of it like a split-personality disorder. For me, Willow/Dark Willow is just like Angel/Angelus. Disassociating from themselves because it’s too painful and traumatic. It’s a mental disorder. Or am I supposed to believe Dark Willow is demonic possession too? ANYA: “Willow’s a demon?”

There's another consideration to take into account with whether Angel and Angelus are the same person, look at the template before becoming a vampire. Liam was a drunken whoring layabout, amoral, one hell of a candidate to become the Scourge of Europe. When he has his soul returned not only would he naturally be crushed by the guilt of his actions, things most any human would be horrified by, the gypsies driven by vengeance wouldn't be past having the spell inflict such guilt to make him suffer. William was a sensitive poet before being turned and while as a vampire he relishes showmanship and being a dick he has his limits. Destroying the world, Tara's family abuse, he doesn't like that one bit. Drusilia, a pious girl driven insane then turned. As a vampire when she is more lucid she can go either way, delving into evil to the point of unleashing Acathla, hurt and upset that Spike had fallen for Buffy, or trying to get him (and Darla) back. Harmony, a selfish alpha girl who had no growth or development, and ended up being much the same as a vampire. In short yes Angel and Angelus are the same, down to Angel wanting to look cool as Liam did and in the comics setting up a mano a mano vampire fight to look cool like Liam would. Difference is Angel is Angelus, Liam, being forced to grow up, mature, or go under, as we get a example of from Reunion to Epiphany.

I have trouble believing that becoming a vampire is a total takeover. Especially since Angel and Darla with souls still seemed to be very connected and not like 2 people who have no history together because that was just the demons.

thanks!

Thank you for this good good food.

I personally think they are the same person they just ALLOW Angel to disassociate theyre literally 2 halves of the same whole they just didnt acknowledge that because it went agaisnt the perception of Angel as this tortured soul desparate for redemption

I cackled at 'Rat boy Angel.' 🤣

This one always bugged me, thanks

Great video but PLEASE continue this for Spike! You barely scratched the surface for him!!

This entirely makes sense, except Angel has memories of what he did as Angelus and spends all of that time ruminating over it. I wonder if it's more like how trauma stops us from being able to grow mentally; maybe he was stunted and had to catch up. I have a number of theories around this exact subject but this is the first time I've ever seen someone make one so close to mine 💜💜💜

Spike as the vampire wanted to change and be better before gaining a soul he with knowledge sought out a soul of his own. For angel he was cursed with a soul for his crimes.

I don't know why Angel took so much effort to "redeem" Faith but not Lindsey.

This great explanation, but i have to kindly disagree, For this fundamental reason, Spike chose to have a soul Angelus didn't it forced upon him this created Angel to bare the guilt of all suffering so that Angelus didn't have to. Spike pre-soul actual change because he still had humanity which enabled him learn and grow as an individual. Which allowed him to accept the responsibility of atrocities and burdens that comes with it. For example in the buffy comics spike soul was stolen and he didn't noticed because besides being slightly apathetic, he barely changed. And what was the first thing he did when he figured it out he went and got it back. Because spike has humanity which allowed him to care; he cared about Joyce, he cared about Dawn, he even cared about Willow. Unlike Angelus who never made that change due to the lack of humanity therefore wasn't prepared for the burden having a soul that it literally split him in two Angelus and Angel

Maybe I'm not remembering the details correctly, but I always assumed it was a methods thing. For Angel it was a curse, so they could have shoved any soul in and it would do. For Spike, he went after and specifically got his soul. Not sure if the curse specifically got angel his soul, or if it just imbued him with a soul

Keep in mind Spike had a trigger!

Because they had a demon soul replacement and demons like people have different temperaments

The fact is that in later seasons the writers changed and thus the explanation of a vampire, a soul, and demon lore did too. When a person becomes a vampire, the soul leaves and a demon inhabits the body taking on the characteristics of the former person's personality. If the soul is restored into the vampire, the demon is retrained and held as the back seat driver. The soul is now mainly in charge but with demonic influence.

On Angel Darla asks Lindsay if she's the same person she was when she was human before being Darla now that she has been resurrected as human or the Darla who was a vampire since that's who she was for so long. He replies: both... neither. Your point made once again 🎉

Angel and Angelus, in my opinion, are the same person. Angel might feel horrible about the things he does, while Angelus merely enjoys himself. Angelus first appears in the first few episodes of Buffy. He's just a jerk who says things that he knows will frustrate Buffy. The only thing holding him back is his guilt over those things with a soul.

when you separated logic from philosophy, i took that personally. :)