@@AllThingsFascinateI swear, Monk suffers from its design space competing with Fighter, and WotC distinguishes them by making everything the monk does worse to make sure Fighter gets its points
@@logancuster8035 Colby likes sustained over burst. he likes reliable over situational. gloomstalkers are the quintessential burst class. they are the poster boy for "in the right situations, they are very powerful" but in the wrong campaigns, they are meh. with that said, i would've gone gloomstalker as well for more attacks, access to aid/rope trick and an easy way to generate advantage/surprise.
Hey, I love thinking about optimization builds and I’ve been looking for months to find quality content like this. After wading through a bunch of trash like Nerdarchy it’s so refreshing to find thoughtful multi class builds supported with good math. Thank you!
Thanks John! I was in the same boat and, since I couldn't find anything out there that was exactly what I wanted, I decided to just do it myself :P. Glad you're enjoying!
What I'm thinking is a kensei/gloom stalker, race is grung. Magic item would be boots of striding and springing. Important feats are mobile and sharpshooter. He will have insane hops and be a hard hitting archer.
The bird race doesn't take away from the wall climbing or slow fall I'd actually argue the opposite since if your flying at 40 feet (cause it's based of walking with is great) and someone reduces your speed to zero you no longer take all the fall damage you'd get cause slow fall and if your ever in a cave or cramped dungeon like the name of the game you can still walk up walls and keep aerial superiority without the space for flight.
This is incredible content. I love looking into the most optimized way of playing characters. I often don't end up playing my characters out exactly the most optimized way but looking at the most optimized way is soooo helpful to then decide what is willing to be sacrificed for flavor while still having a strong character.
Another possibility is go go ranged with Kensei, take the Longbow, take Archery style, at level 9 (Ranger 3, Monk 6) you can make 2 ranged attacks per round doing 1d8+1d6+1d4+DEX and are able to spend a Ki to add another 1d6 to an attack, if they are already at less than their max HP you can also do another 1d8 per round with colossus slayer. With your massive mobility you need never get into hand to hand and with sharpshooter it just gets nastier, and unlike other archers if they close big deal you can now make unarmed attacks.
I feel like all the people who love the monk are all the people who played it as their first 5e class. One of my buddies in college ran a game, and I decided to try it out, and now I just keep thinking of new ways to integrate the monk into builds. A lot of stuff there that people underestimate.
I'd love to see a Way of Open Hand/Battlemaster build from you. Or even a Bladesinger/Monk (MAD) but even possible? Great video! What would you want to see added or fixed for Monks to make them on par with other classes?
Ha ha! Well, tell her I'm flattered, and let her know that *you're* getting a shout out in the episode I plan on recording today :). Hope to have it up tomorrow sometime.
I think at this point I’ve seen at least all of the D&D Optimized builds and I just went back to watch this one. I gotta say, seeing Colby in the early days is charming af lol.
*I would love more Monk & Cleric builds .* *[ Edit 1 ] Tasha's adds a lot of new Feats , new alt features & new additional features .* *That can really give the monk a huge boost .* *At level 1 .* *Monks don't have ki points .* *They get it at level 2 & starts with 2 ki points .* *[ Edit 2 ] The ( Default ) restrictions on monk weapons are actually Simply weapons + Short swords that lack the Heavy or Two-Handed properties .* *Which makes a quarter Staff / Staff a odd edge case .*
I like to call my build a "Ranker!" Human Variant, Kensei 17 + Gloomstalker 3, Goodberry, Hunter's Mark, Zephyr Strike, Archery fighting style, 10 20 14 8 20 8 Ability Scores, and Sharpshooter feat. Use Ki for Deft Strikes and Focused Aim to get a bonus action Sharpshooter attack. Once Ki runs out use Kensei's Shoot or Hunter's Mark. Prefer backgrounds that give thieves' tools proficiency. Thematically I imagine a Zen archer.
So bad I never knew this channel before ! Already subscribed ! I've played a Githzerai Way of the Long Death Monk / Gloomstalker Ranger and it was amazing ! Hunter's Mark really adds up with the number of attacks a monk can dish out and you can still benefit from the spell casting. It is one of my favorite MCs for monks. I've played an Evil Tortle Monk/Paladin of Vengeance (STR-based) and it was probably the stronger, mechanically. You can "dump" DEX, still have an awesome AC, access to hunter's mark and you can Divine Smite with your Monk Weapon. Finally, my third MC for Monk is Cleric. I'm currently playing a Tiefling Monk/Cleric of Light, for thematic purposes. It is awesome to impose disadvantage with reaction and you have a couple of spells to use you concentration. Great content, will keep watching for more !
Quick note on One with Blade, it's use for this multiclass shines on the rounds where you cast/move hunters mark. You won't get your BA unarmed/fob, but it nets you a bit of extra damage that doesn't require a second roll. So basically first round of combat is Hunter's mark - Longsword attack, spend ki to do your MA die damage, second attack Longsword as you aren't trying to trigger your BA unarmed or FoB. Second round Longsword attack, unarmed attack spend ki, FoB on BA.
I, too, love the concept of the monk and it is my favorite class. I have hated that it was so underpowered for so long. My first character when I came back to D&D was a Kensi Dragon Born. My DM wouldn't allow multiclass so I never thought of it...but this seems AMAZING! I am going to rebuild that character...now to find a new game that I can play this!
Yeah, the only downside there of course is that your spell isn't very sustainable. Still, a nice option for at least one encounter a day, and lets you keep all your Monkiness :).
@@DnDDeepDive Especially post Tashe's, Ranger dip is far better. Favored Foe is Proficiency Bonus times per day, so Monk levels make it better. Stacked with Hunter's Mark from Ranger, you have enough to last all day long even at high level. Monk capstone it just, bad. It only helps if one has used all Ki points. Even if only for levels 19 and 20, a Ranger dip is better than staying full Monk.
@@brettmajeske3525 IMO martials are best multiclassed as aside from fighter most dont have good capstones and its tough for them to keep up with the spellcasters without the versatility and optimization that multiclassing provides. Dipping into 1-2 other martial classes such as the fighter and ranger, helps shore up the monk's weaknesses.
Recently rewatched Equilibrium starring Christian Bale and it got me thinking of a Kensei Monk 8/Hunter Ranger 12 build. Point Buy: 15 Dex and Wis 12 Int and Con 8 Str and Cha Custom Lineage (+2 Dex) Feat: Gunner (+1 Dex, proficiency with firearms, ignore the loading property and no disadvantage firing at a target within 5ft aka melee range, just like the short range Gun Kata in the final scene between Preston and DuPont.) Skill: Perception Custom Background: Insight, Sleight of Hand Monk 8: Str and Dex saving throws, Athletics, Acrobatics Martial Arts Unarmoured Defence/Movement (15ft at Monk lvl 8) 8 ki points to spend on Step of the Wind, Patient Defence or Flurry of Blows Deflect Missiles Ki-Fueled Attack (Crossbow Expert doesn’t apply but you’ll be able to unload a bunch of shots later on, which is handy for going one on one with DuPont) Kensei Weapons (by the end it’s 2 pistols from the DM’s guide which deal d10 piercing damage and a longsword substituting the ceremonial katana held by Tetragrammaton Clerics) Kensei Shot (kind of moot tbh) Agile Parry (which will get insane by the end of the build) Way of the Brush (painting if you want to understand art after going off the Prozium and regaining your emotions or Calligraphy if you want to be a god) Slow Fall ASI (+2 Dex to cap it off for maximum accuracy but not yet, that’s coming at lvl 8) Extra Attack Stunning Strike Ki Empowered Strikes/Magical Kensei Weapons (to punch through thick kevlar vests and motorcycle helmets) Deft Strike (which will help with the double tap action later on) Evasion (the Gun Kata is based on the most predictable firing positions that assailants will take up in order to dodge enemy fire and return it more precisely) Stillness of Mind (you don’t need Prozium to keep your centre) Sharpshooter (somehow you never miss. You’re one of the TV Trope codifiers of Improbably Aiming Skills) Ranger 12: Investigation Favoured Foe (damage now is better than damage later, sacrificing a bonus action for a d6 that you can get for 1 ki from a Deft Strike or this feature 6 times per short/long rest is a lot better than one tied to your spell slots. Also, Favoured Enemy is incredibly situational.) Canny (Perception to shoot behind your back or Athletics to mitigate the dumped Strength along with your saving throw proficiency.) Fighting Style - Archery (you use guns. ‘Nuff said.) Zephyr Strike (makes you harder to pin down in combat) Jump (save thise Ki for Deft Strike) Hunter’s Prey - Colossus Slayer (for 1d10 + 1d6 + 1d8 + 5 on one attack, 1d10 + 1d6 +5 on another and 1d10 + 5 on your bonus action gained by spending a ki on Deft Strike and activating Ki-Fueled Attack.) Observant (odd numbers don’t do anything and you are very perceptive.) Roving (not in character but can be useful) Defensive Tactic - Multiattack Defence (at the end, it’s 26 AC with UD, this and Agile Parry, making you very hard to hit.) ASI (+2 Wis) Enhance Ability (you’re kind of a Mary Sue) Darkvision (you’re relying on more than muzzle flash to detect enemy movement in the darkness) Land’s Stride (more mobility) Nature’s Veil (again, not in character but still can be useful) Conjure Barrage Multiattack - Volley (This is the true Gun Kata and can clear you a hallway’s worth of guards on your way to the big boss) ASI (+2 Wis, capping it off for max AC, spell save and Monk DC and perception, active and passive.)
I'm totally late here but I love monks as well. I think utilizing their speed and ki point dash action with the mobile feat is a great way to go. You will sacrifice your damage by a ton but you will be so hard to even target with an attack the DM will be forced to throw you in a 30 by 30 room. I love your build so much though. A monk that can hang in damage dealing is so cool!
I'm a little late here, but I think Gloom Stalker as your subclass would be way better. Dread ambusher for additional attack and movement speed fits right in with the theme of this build. Plus adding WIS to initiative rolls.
As Life from the Loamly said, it can be better vs higher AC targets. I'd also add that it is good to use when you crit, as you would then add 2 martial arts die.
I really enjoy you breaking down the numbers. I feel like after a certain point people play monks for flavor and action economy. However if I may make a suggestion, I would look into going with the gloom stalker ranger. You can add your wisdom score to initiative so you can make sure you always go first and also has some other cool features with it as well
I love the idea of the swords...person with Kensai taking a longsword (katana) but with a Kenshin flare, using quick draw type attacks but never fully drawing the weapon. Instead shoving the hilt into the enemy, then slamming the sheath down the blade to generate a second impact or partially drawing the weapon to stop an attack or quick drawing the hilt into the opponents weapon before it gains momentum kinda emphasizing my +2 to ac from the Kensai feature and/or even your wisdom bonus to AC since you're well trained in watching your enemies attacks. (mechanically making unarmed strikes which works cause it's blugeoning damage but for flavor using the sword hilt and sheath) I've got ideas for trying to give the longsword reach by binding up the blade in the sheath before it's fully drawn or using a chain but I'm not gonna force my DM to try to figure out/balance that out for me 😂 all that said though with Tashas changes I feel Kensai is best suited for ranged attacks over melee really
Hey Colby love your work! Your depth and detail in your builds is outstanding. Is there a reason you didn’t start with 2 levels of Ranger to get hunters mark from the beginning? I realise you don’t get as many attacks but the increase in damage would account for that over time wouldn’t it?
Thanks! I think getting to extra attack, scaling our unarmed strike damage, and getting more ki points outweighs the Hunter's Mark damage. Especially considering that we'd often have to be using our bonus action to cast and then transfer Hunter's Mark to a new target when our current one dies, meaning no bonus action unarmed strike(s) on those rounds.
Agile Parry says " If you make an unarmed strike as part of the Attack action on your turn and are holding a kensei weapon, you can use it to defend yourself if it is a melee weapon. You gain a +2 bonus to AC until the start of your next turn, while the weapon is in your hand and you aren't incapacitated. " This means you MUST use your Attack action to make an unarmed strike NOT your Monk weapon. Attacking with your Monk weapon does NOT qualify, and martial arts states that your Bonus action is an unamred strike. Which also does NOT qualify because it is your BONUS action and NOT your Attack action. So Agile Parry means you only get the +2 AC if your give up using your weapon and only perform unarmed attacks.
Ha ha - I always think I'm going to make them shorter and punchier but I have neither the editing chops nor, apparently, the self-control to not be a wind bag :). If it helps, you could always try the podcast form and listen while you're driving or something, but that might put you to sleep and I would hate to cause an accident :P.
That's correct! I'm assuming you're always going to be making unarmed strikes each round - even if you run out of ki, you can still make one as a bonus action.
@@DnDDeepDive You just raised a fascinating point. The text says the unarmed attack has to be a part of the attack action. If your GM clears you to use your bonus action unarmed strike as eligible, then you can make your two weapon attacks every turn! I need to message my GM, thanks!
I might be misreading it, but it looks like the unarmed attack has to be a part of the attack action and not the bonus action. Given that Monk damage on it's own is undertuned, I wonder if there was a sage advice on this subject.
@@Vagran I see your point. Being that Kensei weapons are considered monk weapons, and the unarmed strike is triggered by making the attack action, I assumed that agile parry simply kicks in so long as you make an unarmed strike, but I can see the interpretation being otherwise. The power of agile parry is *greatly* reduced under that reading! Here's my plea to DMs the world over to house-rule that garbage, since, as you say, Monks can use all the help they can get :).
Once you gain the extra attack at 5th level the monk can then, as an attack action make 1 monk weapon attack (in this case the longsword) and 1 unarmed attack. Thus, allowing him to gain the +2AC from Agile Parry. Looking at Sage Advice the question was asked: “When you use an Extra Attack do you have to use the same weapon for all the attacks?” The answer is “Extra Attack imposes NO limitation on what you use for the attacks. You can use regular weapons, improvised weapons, unarmed strikes, or a combination of these options for the attacks” The key phrase here is “a combination of these options for the attacks”.
have you ever made a Gnome Rune knight crusher multi class or a gnome rune knight monk. so many interesting ideas and the coolness of taking this small creature and making him large wreaking havoc on the battlefield
You actually do want to spend the ki point on deflect missile. IF you have a good target. Now why is that? First we must understand the exact value of a ki point. Flurry of blows lets you make 2 attacks as a bonus action, but since you can already make 1 unarmed attack as bonus action, so the ki point gains you 1 extra unarmed attack. -Whatever this missile is, it is likely to do better damage than 1d4 +dex. -Also there is a small chance you can take out an enemy a little sooner than if you waited for your turn to take this extra attack. That would potentially stop them from taking their turn, but even if the enemy has already had their turn, it might open up the battlefield for your allies to move more freely without taking opportunity attacks. -Lastly, there is a chance you want to spend your bonus action on something other than attacking on your next turn. Of course you probably don't want to make this attack if you have disadvantage because of range, or being in melee, and perhaps the biggest one. If your party is trying to focus down one specific enemy first, and they are not in range. Save your ki for that guy.
Instead of Colossus Slayer for the extra 1d8 damage, I'd take Horde Breaker for an extra attack which if it hits does LOTS more damage, plus it's another chance to stun.
I really appreciate your video. I wanted to play a wood elf Path of the Kensei so I could use a long sword with a dex- build. I like the idea of an agile elf warrior wielding a long sword in two hands. Your suggestions for making this build more viable are great. But I have to ask, wouldn’t a hex blade be a lot better so you could use the hex curse and the spell curse, for every short rest? Then you only need a one level dip. If you did go second level you could get the mage armor invocation to improve your AC too (edit: I looked this up and it mage armor doesn’t work with the monk unarmored bonus). Ranger is cooler thematically though.
Yeah I did a side by side comparison with Lock instead of Ranger but ultimately decided Ranger for both flavor and because you don’t have to invest in Charisma and can just focus on Dex and Wis which are needed by both. Also, the Fighting style is a nice little bump, as is the d8 once per round. In the end, the damage is very comparable (though the lock dip takes a little lead early on.)
problem is, you already get that 1d4 (and better, as you level) by using your bonus attack for unarmed strike (even without spending ki), so I'm not sure that this would be an improvement. And, of course, you couldn't benefit from GWM because it requires the weapon to be heavy, which prevents you from doing a lot of important monkish things...
This is exactly what I'm doing for my character. I'm trying to model it after a Demon Slayer character, so this multiclass is PERFECT. Especially with the proficiencies and other bonuses they get.
I am sorry, but I don't see this build working very well. You put some good numbers on the screen, but that is not what real combat looks like. First. you are looking at a +2 or +3 to concentration, meaning you have a 30-35 % chance of losing hunter's mark every time you take damage. Which you will do, since you are a melee combatant with no way good way to get out of melee combat. Second: basic combat tacticts states, the whole party should target down the enemies 1 at a time, because 2 enemies at half health, deals double as much damage as 1 enemy at full health. Because a competent party will do their best to focus 1 target. You will have set up your hunter's mark almost every other round, preventing you from using your bonus action to attack. Third: you only have 3 1st level spell slots for your hunter's marks. So you will run out really quickly if you lose concentration a couple of times.
This build has me thinking of another build style that would be interesting to see, the combination of tank and sustained dpr. What builds can best balance being able to survive combat while also dishing out the biggest hits.
A thought: Would it be worth it to take 3 levels into fighter and take the champion subclass? Even starting as a fighter to use d10 hit dice over the monk's d8. Notable benefit: Dueling Great weapon fighting Protection Action surge Second wind Improved critical!
worth a look, sure! That said, a lot of the benefits you list you either already get from the Ranger (dueling) or you can't use in conjunction with martial arts/unarmed defense (Protection, Great Weapon Fighting). Also, we're already getting a d10 by using a longsword with two hands, as that's not prohibited, as the longsword is versatile but not heavy.
You could do monk/druid ultimate terrain controller with pushing, stuns and knocking from monk and spells like entangle, fog, gust of wind from druid, not to mention spike growth, wall of stone and bones of the earth
No... Ranger has no unarmed strikes, which make up a large part of the build’s damage (since you get two, with Ki). Also no stunning strike, or, well, walking on water etc. :)
Ah, but this is why we go Path of the Kensei! "Kensei Weapons. Choose two types of weapons to be your kensei weapons: one melee weapon and one ranged weapon. Each of these weapons can be any simple or martial weapon that lacks the heavy and special properties. The longbow is also a valid choice. You gain proficiency with these weapons if you don’t already have it. Weapons of the chosen types are monk weapons for you."
@@senorelroboto2 ha ha - right, I think I said something like "if you're here to be the ultimate Kung-fu master OR you're going to 17, take Open Hand and just embrace the sub-par damage" :)
@@DnDDeepDive Too true. Too bad you have to practically play a multi-year campaign to get that sweet "Pai-Mei Special" of insta-death-or-10-d10-necrotic- damage attack. Good things do come to those who wait.
@@DnDDeepDive I have not read your spreadsheets so forgive me if the answer is there but, have you ever made a video covering how you do the math of stuff like your builds, calculating sustained damage builds, and calculating nova damage? If not and it's more of a "learn math you plebian" thing, I respect you for keeping hold of the "Maybe someone else did the math" market. Your great attitude and dazzling smile make listening to numbers alot easier, cheers!
@@samuelparis7218 i used to do it all manually, then I discovered this little gem... forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?582779-Comprehensive-DPR-Calculator-(v2-0))
I'd love to see a kensei monk with the new features in Tasha's and the feats Gunner and sharp shooter, I think you'd be getting 3 shots with the pistol any around you spend a kid point on your action to add martial arts die damage to one of your shots. Alternatively you could use one hit to stunning strike and then the second attack and bonus stack with the pistol in close quarters.
Sounds good, I have been playing with this concept in case my current character kicks the bucket. I'm considering taking mink to 5 for extra attack and then fighter for a one level dip to get archery fighting style. I considered 2 into ranger for it and hunters mark though but I'd miss out in an ASI so I'm not sure if that is worth it. Then again who plays to 20 🤣
I would love to see you do a 2.0 version of this now, post Tasha. Would you still do it the same way? On a separate point. I also love monks. My personal, ideal, avatar character is a shadow monk gloom stalker swashbuckler(5) to add a free mobility, extra damage sneak attack, and uncanny dodge. All while teleporting in and out of the shadows.
Love this build Cory! For all my first 4 characters I played all non-magical characters (a Battlemaster Fighter, A Barb/Stronk, and a Theif rogue). Even now in my first 5e foray into playing a magical PC I can't help but take half fighter levels 😅. I appreciate the ranger multiclass and honestly never thought of it. What's your opinion on this build now post tasha's what with Dedicated Weapon, the Crusher feat, etc.? Would you still go Kensei Monk? My thoughts are it might be more optimized to take the 4 levels in ranger for the ASI and have a higher balance of WIS and DEX while going Open Hand Monk for more battlefield control/advantage generation.
Thanks! Actually, I updated it post-Tashas, and I think I'd go Astral Monk - check it out here - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-z0H5ZItATAM.html
I love the Kensei and I would love to see you take another run at it. The way of bushido warrior I am such a big fan of rp wise. Though my party does bot always love my Tabaxi who refuses to sneak up on enemies
Keen blade doesn't seem like a very good ability. It only applies to 1 of your attacks. +3 to hit and damage sounds like a lot, but if you want your +2 AC from kensei, you need to do unarmed attacks for one of your attacks that are part of the attack action, and your flurry of blows is also unarmed. So 1 of your 3-4 attacks gets +3 to hit and damage, at the price of 3 ki points and your bonus action. So this is about how your combat is going to go. Round 1: Bonus action: Keen Blade Action: 1 sword attack, 1 unarmed (to get +2 AC) Round 2: Bonus action: Hunter's mark Action: 1 sword attack, 1 unarmed (to get +2 AC) Round 3: Action: 1 sword attack, 1 unarmed (to get +2 AC) Bonus action: 2 unarmed strikes. Round 4: Bonus action: reapply your hunter's mark (If your team did their job, your original target should be dead by now). Action: 1 sword attack, 1 unarmed (to get +2 AC) Round 5: Action: 1 sword attack, 1 unarmed (to get +2 AC) Bonus action: 2 unarmed strikes. Round 6: Combat is winding down, and you get to use your great speed to take down a fleeing enemy.
using the martial arts feature of the monk you can use dex instead of str for attack rolls of monk weapons (as long as they aren't heavy) and unarmed strikes. by using dedicated weapon on a longsword, the monk can now use dex with longswords.
Love your presentations but Hex and Hunter's Mark are different. Hunter's Mark "you deal an extra 1d6 damage to the target whenever you hit it with a WEAPON attack" while Hex "you deal an extra 1d6 necrotic damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack" - no weapon requirement so it applies to unarmed attacks and spell attacks whereas I don't think Hunter's Mark would.
Right! However, as per the Sage Advice Compendium: “The game often makes exceptions to general rules, and this is an important exception: that unarmed strikes count as melee weapon attacks despite not being weapons.” So I think we’re in the clear here. Results may vary, depending on the DM of course :).
imo depends on what you want to do but i'd say definitely not that combo. thats very bonus action intensive already with rage, step of the wind, flurry of blows, wild magic (if you roll the bonus action) and astral arms. imo at its base both classes already eat up alot of bonus actions. best to pick subclasses that give you something without spending your bonus action... something like zealot and mercy. personally, i'd throw in 2 levels of fighter for action surge and the unarmed fighting style.
I like your vision! I guess it would depend on if you went Sharpshooter as well, but as is, I prefer getting mileage out of the unarmed strikes, especially taking advantge of fury of blows for two attacks, as opposed to using your BA for that extra hand xbow attack.
Gotta have sharpshooter. Guess I'd need to see the damage of Flurry up against the damage of the xbow/sharpshooter. But Kensei can add Deft Strike to the xbow too. This is a lot of crunch to do when I'm not at my desk. Just seems optimal.
@@michaelbeal1400 Oh yeah, I'm sure if you're adding SS the damage would be superior, at least at lower levels. But I guess, for me, at that point, it doesn't really feel like I'm playing a monk :), and you could probably do a lot better, damage-wise, with a different class...
Meh. The problem with Monks is that they are "well rounded" in a game that relies on "focused roles". They seem like they are really fun to play, and I get a lot of ideas from them. Their prime Stats (Dex, Wis and Con) all cover the most common Saving Throws. But, ultimately, they fall short. I've considered a Monk/Barbarian(Zealot) mix for the +1d6, but it takes 3 levels of Barb to get that.
i wouldn't say they are well rounded. i think the main problem is they are mediocre in all possible archetypes (striking, contolling, tanking). they aren't supports, summoners or healers either. and yes you are right. 5e is all about hyper-focus in a role (being excellent at one thing) with possible elements of other roles over being a jack of all trades. I think thats a decent multiclass if you really wanted barb and wanted to play a str monk. but if you don't like to invest too many levels you can just get 2 barb for rage and reckless attack. if you wanted a dex/wis monk then, definitely pick something else than barb. i recommend fighter for action surge and unarmed fighting style. battlemaster is also a good subclass to increase dmg and add control elements.
Rob, when I say "well rounded", I mean "jack of all trade, master of none". They're not bad characters at a lot of things, they just arent great at any one thing. I wanted the Zealot for the extra D6 per round. But going Str on Monk stretches the stats out a lot. Of course, what I _really_ want to play is a Monk with Tavern Brawler, where any Improvised Weapon counts as a Martial Arts Weapon. I to walk into a fight, and take up any random thing at all. Or just take his shirt off, and kick people's asses with that. Or a shoe. :) Still, the extra D6 from Zealot would have been nice.
@@Joemantler yeah you could say the monk is a jack of all trades (though he doesn't have alot of trades unlike the bard which is what i meant). the monk is more of a jack of some trades, master of none. i agree that hes not bad at those some things but in 5e, if you aren't at least great in one thing (which will be your typical role in a party) then it's a bad class. in fact monk is widely regarded as the worst class in 5e. agreed that would make you a bit MAD if you didn't give up dex/con/wis. i'd personally just do it this way via point buy: 15 str (+racial bonus), 14 dex, 12 con, 8 int, 14 wis, 8 cha. if you're really just after the d6 bonus on zealot, then there are other classes that can give you that (or close to it but with lesser level investments) or even better (but will have concentration). stuff like favored enemy, hex, hunter's mark, sneak attack, maneuvers, divine smite, unarmed fighting style, colossus slayer, dreadful strikes, gathering swarm, hexblade's curse, , etc. if you really want to play a tavern brawler monk, i suggest to go for it. that can be optimized anyway. I think battlemaster again just fits well as it alleviates your action economy problem (no need to spend your bonus action to get a dmg boost so you can just use flurry of blows or grapple with your bonus action). fits with the theme as well as you have moves like trip attack, push attack, grappling attack, brace, riposte, etc. just be forewarned that it'll take a lot of levels before martial arts improvised weapon becomes a significant improvement as your martial arts die only moves up to a d8 at level 11 monk. i suggest just ignoring martial arts altogether (stick with your d4 or at most d6) and get dmg bonuses like the ones i mentioned above from other classes which can give you a better dmg bump than what the monks give you (they are very bad at this but if you want to major in monk, go for it) with less levels invested. if what you're more interested in playing is a tavern brawler (not really a monk) then it opens up more options for us to make it better. i admit the visuals of dealing alot of dmg by beating an enemy over the head with your shoe is funny. i imagine you taking your shoe off and laying the smackdown on a giant. lol.
It's astounding how three levels in the right class fixes almost all the issues with monk that people complain about online. Especially with the Tasha's upgrades. My optimized monk is a Shadow monk with a 3 level dip that varies depending on what I want to focus on. Three levels of Echo Knight Fighter opens up the monk's ability to be everywhere on the battlefield. Three levels of Fey Wanderer Ranger makes monk a light skill monkey and a decent party face. Three levels of swarmkeeper ranger gives monk undisputed battlefield control. Extra damage, moving targets 15 feet after you hit them, and having your swarm auto disengage you after an attack all give the monk amazing options each turn that compliment their main class features. Whether you go with fighter for shadow clones or ranger for shadow swarms, the fighting style you'll want to pick up is probably thrown weapon fighting. Strap a bandoleer to your chest and fill it with daggers. Once your party starts finding magic weapons fill the bandoleer with all the +1 daggers the rest of the party doesn't want once they get their first +2 weapons.
i wouldnt say swarmkeeper turns the monk into the undisputed master of battlefield control. there are many, many more class combos involving spell casters that are better than this. and tbh with more investment, fey wanderer is the superior controller over the swarmkeeper. i wouldn't pick thrown fighting style, especially not early. it's better to pick unarmed fighting. if ranged attacks is an issue, just have a ranged weapon as a backup like a longbow and assign it as your dedicated weapon. what i will agree with is that a monk (just like other classes) will benefit from a multiclass and needs it more than others due to being the weakest class in the game. personally, i'd also multiclass a monk into battlemaster with gloomstalker as the tertiary class. that should give the monk the popular battlemaster/gloomstalker core to give it an upgrade offense and utility wise. then i'd pair this with the mercy monk for some debuffs and increased dmg.
@@TheRobversion1 unarmed fighting is a trap if you're going to take monk levels. With monk as your main class you outpace unarmed fighting by tier 2 levels. The only reason to take unarmed fighting is if you want to play a boxer archetype and you never want to take monk levels. You're better off just starting with a quarter staff and switching to a longsword when you get the dedicated weapons feature. Spell caster multiclassing on monk is a waste of time. To get any decent level of spell casting you need to prioritize caster class levels. At which point your tiny number of monk levels becomes useless. Monk is probably the worst class to dip into. Don't do it with a caster. Druid might get some synergy if your DM rule of cools comboing martial arts with wild shape, but then you're splitting levels to get two key abilities up to par and falling behind the whole time. Monk gets more utility out of thrown weapon fighting because daggers are a monk weapon. They use dex and martial arts die damage. Shadow monk especially since a dagger is a great target for a silence spell right before you burry it in an enemy's back. Diverting attention to longbows will eventually cause your "monk" to wonder why they aren't taking elven accuracy and sharpshooter to boost that part of your toolkit. Doing so causes the monk to waste feats on the munchkin meta optimal feats and let their three main stats suffer, or to ignore key monk feats like sentinel and crusher if their dex, wis, and con are high enough to justify taking feats. Swarmkeeper is ideal battlefield control. If your definition of battlefield "control" is a damage per round calculation in a white room theory crafting setting then you're just doing it wrong. When I DM I go out of my way to ensure fights don't only take place in big empty rooms. Lava pools, bottomless pits, the tossing and turning deck of a ship (both nautical and aerial), any number of chandeliers or stalagtites hanging from the ceiling. I throw it all in. Munchkins look at the 1d6 piercing damage option on the swarm and they simply stop reading the ability. The ability to move a target 15 feet without a saving throw or move yourself 5 feet without triggering opportunity attacks are the best tricks in the swarmkeeper's toolbox. When I DM I ensure that battles happen in 3 dimensions and that the Z axis has a way to trip up even the highest level PCs. When I'm a player I go out of my way to find a DM that didn't learn to build encounters from the reddit school of white room theory crafting.
@@CitanulsPumpkin nope unarmed fighting is not a trap. that sounds alot like alot of treantmonk "thinking in a vaccuum, letting personal biases influence" thinking. if you're an unarmed user, it's great to have at earlier levels. once it's not needed anymore (you reach that 1d8 martial arts) you swap it out for something else such as superior technique. if you're using weapons, then dueling. the fighting initiate feat (or if you multiclassed into fighter for it) allows you to swap it out when you get an asi. and tbh most players who play monks, want to do it PURE unarmed. not swing weapons. personally if i wanted to do weapons, i'd just play any of the other martial classes and perform better than a monk. the reason to play monk is to play unarmed. while i generally agree that multiclassing a caster with a monk isn't a good idea, it depends on what we're after. are we really after the spells or are they just a nice bonus? like in my own multiclass idea of a gloomstalker, i'm not really after the ranger spells. they are just a nice bonus. i'm after dread ambusher and umbral sight. if i multiclass lets say into genielock 1-3. i'm not after the spells either though they are nice to have. i'm after genie's wrath, bottled respite and access to a couple of invocations which could be useful such as misty visions. and even if i was after spells, it would also depend on the spell. is it a lower level spell like darkness, fog cloud, silent image and a cantrip? then so going to a caster class just for that (typically 1-3 levels) is fine. the whole idea of falling behind is again dependent. what are you sacrificing and what you're getting in return are what matters. do higher level abilities matter to the build? what levels are the campaign ending? for example, multiclassing out of rogues is common. there aren't alot of powerful abilities in the 9th and 13th slot so all you're getting is sneak attack dice (which is easily replicated when multiclassing dmg wise). if my objective is archery, then i'd wonder too. if i wanted to play an archer though, then i wouldn't play a monk. i don't get the part of letting the 3 main stats suffer. you just need 1-2. dex or dex and wis. con is a bonus and 12-14 is enough. i wouldn't say sentinel or crusher are key monk feats in general. it depends again on the build. there isn't just 1 way to build a monk you know. personally i've used a crusher but not sentinel on a monk. i played a skirmisher type monk so sentinel is pointless. it's better on a tank. nope my definition of control is making enemies disabled or ineffective at what they are doing. the fear/charm effect on the feywarden will control the enemy more than pushing them around. and people who calculate dmg in 1 round aren't doing it wrong either. dead enemies are the ultimate form of "control". this isnt "white room theoycrafting only" either as i've also done alot of burst striker builds (theorycrafted and playtested with different dms) and they WORK. i'd define swarmkeeper more as forced movement but yes still falls under control (as it can make enemies ineffective at what they want to do) but i simply consider what the feywarden does more effective. i don't use the 1d6 gathering swarm option either. i use the forced movement option as well. i rarely use the disengage one. while you may prefer dms like that and you dm like that, not all players do and not all dms do that. i have a couple of dms who do that while my main dm doesn't do that much. playstyle preference shouldn't influence analysis of an ability or at the very least it should be prefaced that its effectivity waxes and wanes dependent on the dm/environment/campaign.
@@TheRobversion1 yeah, sure, bias... Still not wasting my time on stacking unarmed fighting on low level monk just because munchkins are biased to think it's a great combo. As for actual bias, gloomstalker is over hyped. It's the 4th ranger conclave I consider behind swarmkeeper, fey wanderer, and horizon walker. It's use is especially mitigated by eldritch adept making devil sight a feat option for all classes. We keep veering into non monk weapon use arguments while debating fighting styles. The simple fact is thrown weapon fighting is one of the only fighting styles that boosts a monk weapon that will show up in every single campaign regardless of DM fiat. A bandoleer full of 30 daggers that all use your martial arts die instead of d4s is a better option for monk than making any one of most of the other ranged weapons their dedicated ki weapon. Blind fighting would probably be another top tier pick for most monks. You brought up the style that swipes battle master maneuvers. Yeah, that adds one cool trick. Guess what. The swarmkeeper swarm gives mechanical equivalents to 3 of the better maneuvers and doesn't lock them behind a once per short rest battle master die use. Swarmkeeper also ticks off your "caster" check box by adding mage hand and fairie fire to the build. Spells the monk benefits from greatly besides the other ones ranger gives by level 3. I typically only take superior technique and martial adept if I'm building a Reborn skill monkey character and want to have 6 or so extra edge cases to roll bonus d6's on skill checks. Edit: there seems to be a fundamental disconnect every time I see someone debate monk features. Monk isn't dps. It's mobility and single target CC. If you want to cast area control spells be a druid. If you want to deal high damage at point blank range be a fighter, barbarian, rogue, or paladin. Monk isn't for that. Monk is for moving all over the battlefield and delivering "key" attacks that make openings for your party to exploit. And no matter what munchkinry leads you astray, 3 levels of swarmkeeper ranger add to the main purpose of all monk's other abilities more than any other multiclass dip. Gloomstalker doesn't let you stunning strike an enemy and move them 15 feet onto your party member's great sword. As for charisma casters, warlock is an easy dip choice for most classes, but for monk specifically the only low level CHA caster dip that adds greatly to everything the monk already excels at is the Mage of Prismari Sorcerer from the Strixhaven UA. One level of Prismari Sorcerer adds more to what the monk is built to do than 2 to 3 levels of warlock.
@@CitanulsPumpkin yeah sure don't that's your perogative. but to claim that unarmed fighting style is a trap when your objective is pure unarmed dmg is false. it's not bias either. it's based on math and playtest experience. if you can't see that, can't help you there. while it is possible that the gloomstalker is overhyped (especially in campaigns that play 51% of the time in broad daylight with no areas of shadow/darkness), it is still the best ranger subclass. ranking it 4th is just... i can't even put in the proper words to describe how inaccurate it is, especially putting it behind the horizon walker which is the 2nd worst ranger subcclass. fey wanderer is indeed one of the top 3 ranger subclasses but i'd put swarmkeeper 4th. it's also weird not to see the tasha's beastmaster here who i'd put 3rd. the use of the gloomstalker is not all about seeing in darkness. it's 3 fold: 1. excellent burst dmg with 2 extra attacks when multiclassed into fighter buoyed by bonuses to move speed and initiative. 2. auto-obscurement which makes them accurate and hard to kill in areas of shadow. this is is also one of the best surprise generators in the game which is a very powerful condition. 3. rope trick access. this is a great utility spell and panic button in combat, especially for ranged gloomstalkers. i would take thrown weapon fighting on a monk if it was the main schtick of the build such as going kensei and doing a dart sharpshooter. i don't understand how a one-handed weapon working dueling (which daggers are as well) wouldn't make dueling relevant in all campaigns. i do agree that blind fighting is also a great fighting style with proper multiclassing to leverage it such as a class access with fog cloud, darkness, etc or playing a shadow monk. if you're fighting unarmed, that thrown weapon fighting style isn't getting used 90-95% of the time which minimizes it's benefit over superior technique, dueling or unarmed fighting. i don't get the swarmkeeper and fighting style swapping. i wasn't saying pick 1 or the other. you can get both. we can argue over ranger subclasses or fighting styles to pick but i never said swarmkeeper and superior technique shouldn't be taken together. the issue with gathering swarm is it scales off of wisdom targeting a strong save (str), so unless you're an astral monk it will fail more until you've maxed wis (which i bet will be late as unless you're an astral monk you'll most likely max dex 1st to be able to hit and dmg). faerie fire is fine as it targets dex even though the dc will be lower. and overall, it depends really what you want to do with a monk. you want to push/pull stuff? sure swarmkeeper. you want to do more dmg? gloomstalker is better. me, i'd rather do more dmg and kill the enemy round 1. nothing to push/pull when an enemy is dead. and it's not environment reliant either. the only times i'd build around swarmkeeper is if i'm not a monk. the 2 most common optimized builds you'll see online are the cheese grater spike growth build and the gathering swarm + cloud of dagger + booming blade combo. anyway it seems like your mind is closed off to these kinds of things so yeah, you do you.
"One of the tankiest classes in the game" ehm... no. We are talking level 17, and your AC is 21 before magic items. That is pretty standard, about the same as a tank with a shield and defensive fighting style. But unlike the tank with a shield, you have increased dex and wisdom, meaning your constitution is lower than a tanks. Your hit dice are d8s meaning your hit points are even more behind the tanks. Fighter and Paladin have self healing, bringing your hit points even more behind by comparison, and barbarian does not have self healing, but makes up for it by having d12 hit dice. Even the rogue and bard are likely to have more hit points than you, since constitution is a natural secondary stat for them, where as it is third priority for you. So no, every frontliner has more HP than you, and your AC is on par with a tank, not above it. Also if you are ever prevented from attacking or the monsters go before you on round 1, your AC drops by 2. Yes you have great saves, but monsters are going to chew you up in melee.
I know this is a year old now, but this build is broken according to RAW, unless there's some errata I don't know about. PHB Ch9 Melee Attacks specifically says unarmed strikes don't count as weapons. Hunter's Mark specifically says adds a 1D6 damage when you hit with a weapon attack. Note no damage type is specified. So essentially your weapon of choice now deals x+d6. Hex on the other hand, says you an extra 1d6 necrotic damage when you hit with an attack. Any type of attack triggers the extra necrotic damage.
unarmed strikes arent weapons but can be used to make melee weapon attacks. hunter's mark applies. As per JC. twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/608776737917263872
Right - here's what is says in the Sage Advice compendium: "The game often makes exceptions to general rules, and this is an important exception: that unarmed strikes count as melee weapon attacks despite not being weapons."
@@DnDDeepDive yeah I can see that. Just one of the things I glossed over I guess. "Does stunning strike work? Yeah,. Blah blah blah moving on. " That would make a very compelling case to a GM in a session 0. --* After further review: the play stands. *--
