Doing this in class once, and I actually broke the other guy's ankle. When he was rolling backward we all heard a loud crunch. This technique is dangerous in more ways than I realized. I LIKE IT!!
Meme Liszt Yeah,that was about 14 years ago when I was white belt. The guy that got his ankle broken was a purple belt, and was actually instructing me. I did exactly as he instructed, he just didn't know how he was supposed to be standing. Not my fault.
A year or 2 back we had two beginners sparring, from standing. It was a normal wrestling/no gi class. The one guy jumped this and broke the other guys ankel. He needed surgery and came back to try the warming up and maybe some ground techniques after 8 months. The guy who jumped it had seen the takedown on youtube and didnt knew how dangerous it was. Good of you to make this video Stephan! I always really enjoy ur vids!
Great video! Thought I'd offer my perspective.. I train Capoeira, where we use this takedown all the time (on concrete floors... ouch! :/). Ok, so the goals in Capoeira are different, but there are a few tricks I've found to make training it safer: First, if you reach your arm over and grab their far shoulder (as if you were grabbing your buddy for a photo). This locks your partner in so they can't run away, forces you to be more side on and also gives you much more support so that even a fairly small partner can support a larger partner's weight. Second, on entry we tend to break the move into three parts 1) reach the back leg behind the partner first, 2) Land the front leg on the hips and then 3) do the hop. The scissor becomes less aggressive and more controlled - more of a sweep/structure break, rather than a shock load, and means it's easy to bail if your partner is in the wrong position. Thirdly, the safest way to fall from this move seems to be to just sit down rather than to try a twist or role. Again, allows for more control. (in capoeira we do train some nice escapes / reversals for this technique, but they're "advanced" moves and carry some injury risks of their own) Just some thoughts :)
Yep also practice capoeira and this move is "normal". Especially after a "fake" meia lua de compass and then transitioning into the scissor sweep. This makes that your hand is already on the ground and you have more control over the steps to perform the move. I've done it so many times and never got someone injured. I guess it is the way you enter the movement that makes it more dangerous. Now also started bjj and at one point there was this class about the leg sweep where you enter into the base stance of your opponent ... i could not resist to put my hand down and scissor sweep him... man instructor went nuts on me... don't ever do that again... i don't want to see that in my class... i was like.... euhm I've done this move over 15 years ... nothing special or dangerous about it if I'm doing it ... afterwards he did say it was nice ... but don't do it again :-)
That's good to know because i am a shotokan practitioner. I see bjj as being Japanese influenced. As much as people scruff traditional martial arts the fact is bjj owns it's roots to jujitsu i.e. a traditional martial art's lol.
Joe Lauzon used to pull this move off a ton in local grappling tournies back in the day. I remember he got so good at it that we used to train the defense against it in tourny classes.
TheLurkingPanda Yeah, i was just kidding :), new techniques can't be learnt with a dummy. The move is really awesome, i guess it's also pretty effective against heavier opponents!
I used to do this technique all the time but I definitely see the risk involved and only use it against other equally experienced fighters and even then I do it very rarely. Still, I may appreciate this more as a self defense technique, in a real life threatening situation if I am likely to do so much damage. lol Seriously though, I didn't know about that leg lock, usually I find the move clumsy because I can't think of much else to do other than an ankle lock or heel hook. Thank you so much for this breakdown!
We did this throw yesterday in our JJ training, so I searched it :). I like your explanations and BJJ-Lock techniques. We use almost the same. Thank you!
We learned it in judo back when it was still legal. They banned it in tournaments maybe five year after I started. It was effective. However, the programs in judo (in tournaments) were... people in tournaments are doing everything possible to not be thrown or not land solidly on their back. People twist, try falling forward, try dropping to their knees, etc. Against less experience judoka... people often would twist and put their free arm backwards to try to avoid being thrown full point. Even with experience opponents, many standing grips could end up with the far arm not free -- either double holds, reaching across, or just caught up from a previous attempt. In such cases, there is no possibility of a break fall and one can easily be thrown straight on your head.Doing this on a 'friend' on concrete... pretty stupid. Lots of other safer throws to impress friends and there are lawns or fields in most places.
Yes, I remember it was legal but our sensei advised not using it because it was dangerous. Our sensei also advised against tomoenage, saying it was a deadman's move. Not only can people get hurt but if you failed with that waza, you were in a position that was very disadvantaged. Another waza that was advised against was kataguruma.
This video is both informative and responsible. Make more please :) I wish two things: more martial arts instructors were that way and that I could train at your dojo.
Wanted to say first and foremost.. excellent channel and I find your teaching very helpful and sincere. I agree that this technic is not intended for sparring purposes but should be studied by serious fighters in general because it is stupid affective and it does work. Thank you for posting a lot of my generation learned it from scorpion in mortal kombat 1.lol
Outstanding video, we had an instructor who would do this all the time and since he outranked me I couldn't say much. I told my guys the exact same thing that you have said (more elegantly than I could) here in this video, thanks.
I had a friend of mine, who had only been practicing Judo for about 2 weeks in some school enrichment activity do this on me, stupid on my end, since I had been Uke for Kani Basami in my Judo practice at a club and I was well aware of the dangers, but I was rash and let him do it. When he tried to perform the move he couldn't lift his leg as high as he should've, so his leg was at my knee where it should've been at the hip and his other leg was lower as well, and he ended up twisting my ankle badly. I managed to somehow avoid dealing any more damage but it left me limping for a good 6 weeks and even now my ankle gets stiff and painful from time to time. Basically, don't fuck about with this move if you don't know how to do it, I've had a good 2 years collective experience in Judo and while I would be happy to perform and relearn many of the moves I was taught, Kani Basami has been one I've steered clear from.
I learned this while I was training Taekwondo and it has since been one of my favorite throws. We also had one version where you put your leg on the back of your opponents neck and the other on the chest and twist forward which I feel is far more dangerous.
it isn't really dangerous, but in judo competition times ago you basically see only legs grabs and this techinque when your adversary basically stuck sideway
I used Kani Basami as one of my signature moves for years, before it was banned. I never hurt anyone, but I was warned of the dangers and I did the move differently. I was big on foot sweeps and would block the ankle with my foot first and then basically kick the opponent in the chest with the back of my leg. My momentum was in the kick, so I wasn't throwing myself at their leg/knee so I never injured anyone's leg. I could also do it as a thrust kick past their chest, putting the leg in the right position, and then twisting to knock them down. It made for a hard breakfall but that mostly created the risk of getting the wind knocked out of you. One of the keys for safety was keeping your legs wide apart for the technique and staying away from the knee. It probably meant the move was easier to escape that way. There is another move that might be more dangerous. It's kind of a foot sweep. I can't remember the name. We never used it. You basically get the opponent off balance while facing him and then spin him right upside down so he feet are in the air and his head is down. This move broke necks. I saw a higher rank Judoka seriously injure a green belt with it at a tournament.
Although not used in Karate tournaments, this was one of the techniques that my Karate instructor taught, but we called it a SCISSORS move. Some of the same or similar techniques are taught in different martial arts, but each martial art has its favorite techniques while other techniques are neglected and forgotten because they are not practiced or emphasized, and not passed down to the next generation. Karate also has some throws or take-downs and locks, but not everyone knows or uses them.
As a capoeira practitioner and teacher; I have grown doing this take down. Like you say good training and supervision makes all the difference. It's very hard to explain, but from a Judo or Jiu-jitsu point of view, the way this technique is applied can be compared to a truck running you over. Practitioners don't know how to jump or get enough impulse to apply the take down. That's why heavier practitioners tend to hurt their partners or opponents. In capoeira we tend to go from the ground up, this helps because the hand it's already on the ground, thus helping keep the legs on the right position. Great video. Oss.
exactly, if you put most of your weight on the hand that touches the ground, you can have a very slow and controlled "flying" scissors. the only "problem" that's left is the person who is falling has to bring his chin to his chest to not get himself KO'd (basics).
Nice? That is not nice. That is retarded. So is sticking a kama in your friend's leg. No remorse. No awareness of what a major fail that is. God help us.
@@ayam1maya some dude ruined my ankle with this move and I've been out of training for over a month and it's not funny. If you are looking to compete this can crush your dreams man!
This is my most favorite and used takedown that I use for MMA and JJ. I've never thought of it as being the most dangerous or even dangerous at all. In fact I used this take down mostly when i wanted to be gentle. There are some variation's; the one displayed in the video uses the grip on the collar which creates more momentum and possible danger from lack of control. I always like to grab the opponent wrist when using the scissor sweep, giving me more control and distance to work with (Hence im 6ft and have long legs and arms). If you want control focus your efforts on the standing hand, the technique should not depend on the momentum, it already has the perfect mechanism for a take down. Never failed me or hurt anyone, but I do not deny, it can be lethal. Hint hint: Putting the front leg on the chest or neck instead of the lower abdomen with momentum and strength = potential death by concussion.
I'm a long time MMA trainer, an after seeing very bad injured knees with this technique, I forbidded it for ever. Specially I remember one guy that got his knee joint absolutely destroyed (bone out of the socket, broken LCL, broken meniscus, etc).
This is my favorite technique ... i did this a lot with many of may sparring partners and thank God none of them got injured except for the guy i fought in a street fight but its not his foot or leg that got injured but his head from being slam to the ground.....
I use this one all the time in sparring. Like any takedown, to avoid injury while training, you have to use control. The worst training injury I ever had was from getting thrown with an uchi mata. I had 3 displaced vertebrae in my neck, almost paralyzed. That would have been way worse than a broken ankle. On a side note, this isn't a legal scoring technique in sanda (san shou), you don't score from any takedown where you follow your opponent to the ground, the fighter initiating the throw must remain standing. You can do it, but then the ref will tell you to stand up and stay off the mat. That's how sanda is here in China anyway.
I don't mean to be rude, but I have to disagree with Mr Kesting on this one. This is absolutely not the most dangerous technique in Judo. There are plenty of others that can cause severe injury or death, depending entirely on how they are applied, and how the uke falls. If you know how to do a basic back fall without allowing your head to smash into the ground, then kani basami is a fairly safe and smooth technique to fall from. Personally, I think tai otoshi is far more dangerous, as it has a very high possibility of destroying uke's knee and/or smashing his head into the ground. Tawara gaeshi, sumi gaeshi, or tomoe nage can easily send uke's head smashing into the ground, again depending on how the throw is applied. If you are a good training partner, you will allow uke the safety measures necessary to let him roll or fall safely out of a technique. Honestly, the danger of a sport technique comes into play when it is executed in an unsafe manner. Almost any Judo throw can be slightly modified to cause severe injury or death by preventing uke from having a safe path to escape and roll or break-fall. However, I don't recommend testing this theory.
When people refer to this as the most dangerous move in Judo, they are usually referring to the fact that more people were injured because of this throw than any other move.
It's funny he was talking about the heel hook because that is a very dangerous move. Just it isn't a judo move but still he used it and it can be very dangerous for the guy on the receiving end.
I fully agree with you, Steve. For me also the Tai Otoshi has far greater damage potential. (Any Otoshi technique for that matter, as they are designed to pile drive someone into the ground with his spine flat on the ground.) As far as the demonstrated technique injuring so many people: I see this video also explaining that one of the legs should go behind the knee? My sensei (I have a classical Japanese JiuJitsu background) has explained to me that this makes the training injury rate go up dramatically. Chances increase the feet remain standing on the ground (resulting in ankle injuries) or your partner's legs just fold, not throwing him backwards so much as more making his knees buckle. Legs fold, your leg is between his legs at knee level. Knees just get ripped apart. The explanation I got was to let the leg sweep over the floor and sweep him of his feet at ground level with one leg, and indeed at hip level with the other. (As an added bonus it makes the throw a lot harder and gives it a better success rate as well.) Interesting to see it explained this way, by the way. So please don't read any wise-ass 'we know it better' words in my comment. We are all martial artists here. There is no better or worse style. I have the utmost respect for each and everyone of you.
Fordo JR someone is teaching you well at your school, household or both that you came back with that edit. Also, I agree with you, in Muay Thai there are several takedowns I learned that are, on one hand not so dangerous (everything in martial arts is dangerous to some degree, so take that assessment in relativity); yet if you modify them enough they immediately become lethal. That however is not how the technique is taught or intended to be performed, therefore even though the potentiality is there for lethality or great harm, the modification makes it "not the standard technique", while you can modify a hooked rollup to essentially be some sort of "rolling DDT" that would certainly maim or kill anyone you applied it to, the adjustment makes it something other than a rollup... at the risk of becoming overtly redundant... this means to say "you could kill someone with that takedown, if you did this, that, and the other thing" you're not talking about the technique in question anymore by the time those modifications are applied. I.E. the hooked rollup is not lethal. Neither is a sling shot by the way, until you put a nail in the cradle.
jazzcama Thanks for all of the respectful responses and interesting opinions. Of course, every instructor is going to teach a slightly different variation of technique, so it really depends on your personal experience as to how dangerous each technique will seem to you. For me, in the way my instructor presented the "original" Kodokan style tai otoshi, there is a good chance you can hyper-extend uke's knee if you leave your right leg straight (assuming you're in right-standard grip and you are throwing uke over your right hip/leg) and his foot gets stuck to the matt. This tends to happen when you pull uke's balance onto the front foot as you enter for the throw. The easiest way to ensure safety when applying tai otoshi is to keep the trowing leg bent and lower your weight to the ground, this pulls them down with momentum rather than leverage against the knee. Of course, almost any technique can be modified to be safe or dangerous depending on its execution. My point is, in an actual randori situation where you are facing a resistant opponent, it's easy to accidentally fall into a dangerous situation with tai otoshi. I say this because the same scenario has happened to two people that I know personally inside of our organization. In fact, it happened to a very well-accomplished instructor during a testing student's randori demonstration. Maybe I'm biased because I've actually seen it happen, but I definitely believe that tai otoshi poses a noteworthy risk to be aware of.
A few points of clarification: Kani Basami done IMPROPERLY (as you mention "with leg behind the knees") can absolutely hurt people, but when done PROPERLY (with the leg just under the calf muscle), its totally safe. I personally have used it for 48 years in both intense shiai, & randori with zero injuries. I taught this technique properly in my video series in the early 90's and had thousands of students over the years with not a single injury from Kani Basami. The simple fact is that technique has some very specific requirements in entry and leg placement that too many did not discern, or they got careless/reckless and it was banned because it was being improperly taught. I understand their desire to protect from injury but IJF is getting very weird and IMHO making wrong decisions in general with the leg attacks, and in particular they should have instead issued a LOT more Hansoku Make penaties with bad Kani Basami attacks so people would figure out they are doing it wrong. In summary: A good technique that was too often misunderstood and poorly/carelessly executed.
I had some idiot college kid BJJ practictioner (who probably learned it online) do kani basami to me and caused my angle to invert and give me pain for several weeks. I had to wear a soft angle brace while practicing for weeks afterwards. Tbh I'm glad this move was banned. People nowadays aren't trained properly enough to use it.
Thank you for posting this. Sorry to hear about your experiences with this technique. I plan to start studying judo soon; however, I'm not doing it to be an MMA fighter or anything. I see judo as a great way to stay active while learning a really effective and time-tested system of self-defense. I'm certain the teachers where I'll be studying know their stuff, but it's good to know this technique is dangerous.
Looks very effective! Yikes!! My boyfriend was from hong Kong & knew a lot too! I think its very fun to watch. I am 56yrs. Old now & I would have liked to stay in shape the way they do! And, most importantly, know how to protect myself & possibly others! Great videos!
We practice this, however we do it above the waist and use it as a tak down to a lead to a kick to the mid-section or groin. Great vid....thanks for loading.
this is one of my fav techniques. al tho i train in bjj / judo i got my start in classic hapkido. i learned this technique in hapkido and it has ben one of my all time fav techniques. but i have learned that you need to be careful because you can ko people on the way down and get ppl ankles twisted up. I dont train this techniq in a sparring situation, even tho i have in the past. it all depends if the person im training is good at falling and rolling.
@smokes161-2 out of 3 fights do end up on the ground and much of it is pummeling the other person unfortunately. BJJ and its ancestor, jujutsu, and derivative, judo, allow those trained in the form to disable aggressors faster with certain COMBAT proven techniques
I have a quick question, So I am a first deg Black belt in song moo kwan, and for my Second degree I have to incorporate a few self defense movement into our school, and was wondering if you suggest this set of movement for me to incorporate into our school. Thank you,
+Simon Burgers Ju Jutsu is self defence so I *think*it's in the syllabus still. However I wouldn't be surprised if it was taken out. We call it: crab claws scissor kick too
+Amadeus Nordström If you have killer heelhooks you can anything with them. Armlocks, chokes, neckcranks, knockouts, you name it, the possibilites are endless.
All "takedowns" can be dangerous when done "incorrectly" (from a judo perspective). The judo maxim of "jita kyoei" (Mutual Benefit and Well-being) illustrates the importance of safety in the sport (and art) of judo. Kano-sensei explicitly modified deadly jujitsu techniques and fashioned a rule-system that promoted the safer techniques (points for landing opponent on back). Poor or badly-timed application of any technique will lead to more injury than the application of "banned" techniques usually do. Kani-basami is a wonderful technique that, unfortunately, was involved in some major (politically speaking) injuries (as pointed out in this video). The banning of Kani-Basami in competition has led to a reduction in its teaching, and thus a reduction in expertise (on average) among judoka. Less expertise leads to more injury (per capita) when people do try to use it. If there is a spectrum of dangerous techniques in judo, kani-basami definitely exists in there. I'd argue that o-soto-gari is a much more "potentially dangerous" throw than most. A non-trained uke will undoubtedly hit his head, while the power that is developed in the throw is massive, and is directed entirely at the point of impact on the floor (as opposed to rotational energy in a seoi-nage or uchi-mata). My father (and original judo Sensei) attributes his Parkinsons Disease to decades of o-soto-gari impacts, where even as a highly trained uke, he could not avoid hitting his head every time. At least with Kani-basami, there is a level of physical skill required before you can even attempt the technique (an athletic threshold, so to speak). How many people have sprained their wrists (for example) improperly posting their hand to the ground during kani-basami? O-soto-gari is taught to every white-belt in their first week of class. So we, by default (in judo and karate, etc...) are taking any old idiot off the street, and arming them with a potentially deadly weapon. The up-side is, in my experience, most of the average idiots quit before they can develop the technique (and thus power) to make it a life threatening attack. Long-story short, this video is good, and it discusses an important technique and its dangers, but don't let yourself be fooled into thinking that it is the most, or even the only, dangerous throw in the sport.
I love how you said Kano-sensei. Very few people understand that this the correct way of saying it. Like my shihan, I call him Linebarger Shihan instead of Shihan Linebarger. Kudos to you and thank you for saying it correctly.
I like this analysis. I've definitely smacked my head had on the mat from Osoto-Gari! Also yeah, I had a Sambo guy do this to me once in training. He had complete control the whole time. Proficiency does lead to safety, but we still need to have conversations about this technique because people will always imitate what they see. It's the people who jump into this without proper control that hurt people and ruin the move for everyone else.
As a child, once I tried this on my Judo sensei (an Irish cop) and almost broke his knee because I was so sloppy. A decade later, a jiu-jitsu black belt visiting our Shotokan dojo tried this on me; I had no trouble stepping out of it without falling. A wide relaxed stance (typical in Shotokan) helps.
Not only that, in the end he says that this technique should only be practiced on a super controlled enviroment or with a dummy... just as the wrist techniques he talked in the traditional jj :/
Juan Hiribarren Wrislock throws, supplex, leg locks, calf crush, wheel hooks, knee bars etc... Are very advanced techniques with high degree of chances of injury. Teachers avoid do it on BJJ because many people would get injured therefore leading to less student retention. This is why they avoid it unless you want to become a competitor or reach purple to brown belt level because by the time you reach this level it means you are able to control your strength and have no so much ego.
Dave Hummel NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.... :( I'm doing Judo in the off season and I saw this and thought I could use it with a wizzer :\ I was gonna be the coolest kid in the team with this!
***** How tho? If it works in Judo it should probably work in wrestling. I mean you can hit it from a whizzer as shown in the video... it's whatever it's illegal anyways.
+Matticus Barticus I would advise to keep this technique in you back pocket as a last resort for the reason that you're falling down with your opponent (hip/ass first) as you're doing it, and you may get injured just as much as your attacker on the concrete. Maybe if you're on grass or soft dirt? I dunno, but just something to keep in mind.
Depends on the leg lock. You can still do a kneebar or just twist their foot past the point of rotation. Boots don't stop you from doing that. (Literally JUST tried it).
Thanks for alerting me about the dangers of this throw. For me, its all about injury prevention! If I train this technique during sparring, I'm just going to alert my partner and slow-mo it. I had no idea this one could be so dangerous.. it looks very harmless.
That's mainly because "sparring" in a Capoeira roda is more of a game where the guys are not out to fight and hurt each other....so most kicks/takedowns are controlled (but, yeah there are still aggressive rodas)
In capoeira, kani basami (called tesoura) are reserved to very high level practitioners. You will not see a three-hours-per-week capoerista trying to do it to another.
KingSygma i know, i have seen this in a roda once, when i was still practicing capoeira, The guy who had to take the tesoura while he was doing the agmada was somehow air lifted and got slammed on his back pretty hard. It can be pretty nasty
alexander huismans I have practised capoeira for almost two years, and I have seen a "live" tesoura only once, in a jogo duro. It was during the farewell of a colleague who was leaving the group, so I sometimes think they were trying to cripple him or something lol
This is illegal in collegiate wrestling as well and known as a leg whip. It was used to defend when your opponent gets a single leg lifted. It was made illegal because they used to kick really hard with the lower leg at the back of the opponent's ankles. I found out it's still illegal when you do it more gently (as the video depicts) when I did it in a match.
