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@@Pepe-dq2ib On the bigger ones you don't pay much more than comparable saws from PM etc. I do wish they could get the jobsite ones cheaper for tradesmen.
Thank you both for taking the time to come by and visit us at the booth last week. It was a real pleasure to meet you and your wife. Tell her I'm sorry if I scared her a bit with the demo!! Don't forget, we do market to the industrial sector but if you want one for the garage shop... John A. will happily install one wherever you want!
How would this react to a board catching the blade wrong, kicking out, and pulling your hand in as it kicks the board? Wonder how fast the computer can see that coming, because that sort of accident happens in a split second.
@@Maxime-ho9iv The average computer can do 5-500 billion computations a second. On the low end, that's a calculation ever 12 nano seconds. If a kickback takes half a second , that's 500,000 nano seconds. In that time, the computer can perform 41,666 computations.
As a software engineer, I wouldn’t trust any proactive software safety mechanism without a physical reactive backup like a sawstop. Software engineers are notoriously bad at writing software
Software engineers aren't "notoriously bad" at writing software (yeah, I'm sure some are), but they're not great at envisioning every potential use case. As soon as you think you have an idiot proof product, the world provides bigger idiots to prove you wrong. As a non-software guy managing a bunch of software engineers doing control systems for heavy equipment, I can assure you that it's hard to simultaneously account for all of the stupid things humans will try to do without getting in the way of what a good operator is trying to accomplish.
@@rohlfing63 You're exactly right...but I'd still agree that the general quality of coding (especially when interfacing real-world scenarios) is middling at best.
id be more interested to see what it can do in a kick back situation where the saw driives your hand through the blade from the back before you even know what happened. im curious why they never did a test like that, and am curious if its fast enough for that.
Love this, but man I know that a) I don't need a production saw like that, and b) I'm not cashing out my 401k to buy one lol. That safety system though - that's the smartest design I've seen.
Is it probably super expensive? Yes. I do think this is one of the best and most thought-out saws I've seen. Hopefully, they can make hobbyist ones priced competitively with sawstop sooner than later.
The rumor that I heard was that a regular saw kept stopping even though hands weren’t even close and when a black dude tried to put his hand close to the blade, it wouldn’t stop. You need to buy an AI option to make it work better and pay super expensive monthly fees for the AI. Like I said I didn’t hear this first hand.
The downside of the the SawStop is you have to replace an expensive cartridge and scrap your expensive blade or dado set. I bet this Altendorf saw is at least twice as expensive but I like the technology. However, you don't need any of this expensive technology, simply use common sense and safe practices, keep your hands well away from the blade.
@@petemclinc You sound like the administration in the white house telling me to buy a tesla because they are inexpensive and they don't understand why you don't have one yet.
Hoping at some point that these safety features will make it into cheaper saws. Especially here in Europe we only have the Festool saws with Sawstop tech but they are simply too small - we need a proper European saw 🤞🏻
Definitely cool tech. I wonder how reliable the hand detection is, as it's software based, rather than the much more simple capacitive contact detection that SawStop uses. I imagine (I hope) they have tested the heck out of it, as a failure would most likely lead to liability lawsuits. Anyway, it's great to see this kind of safety tech integrated into the saw, and I hope it will make it into consumer-level saws soon.
I wish I could have heard more about how the hand detection works, mainly how many times it can check per second if your hand is moving toward the blade. if it's updating less than 100 times per second I would not feel confident in a system like this.
Beautiful! One need only sell both kidneys and your firstborn to afford it. Oh, and the guy with the single-bay garage workshop, guess what? LOL This thing is simply amazing! I DO have the room for it, but I wasn't born rich and can't spare a kidney, so I'll have to stick to my $800 saw and get the centerfold foldout of this to hang by my saw. Thanks for the video! As a retired radar engineer, I am forever enamored with cool technology!!
Professional shops as well as small shops must also factor in incident costs. Just one minor accident on a table saw could cost several thousand dollars to over a $100,000 if nerve damage occurs, just in medical bills. Now factor in fines levied by OSHA if/when they find an issue. And then come the Lawyers and then your insurance rates go up and can even affect your ability to bid on projects. This looks like a very well built machine that will help increase production, boost employee confidence while using the saw and help you produce a better product. If I had the production volume and room in a production shop, I would seriously consider this saw. I would assume financing would be available, either through the manufacturer or as a low interest business loan.
I worked on 2 Altendorf table saws every day for years and neither of them ever broke down. fantastic saws. This new tech looks great, albeit untouchable for a small shop due to price.
For $1 million dollars :p. Hammer has some blade stopping tech too. It's good to see vendors trying new detection systems out, even if the saw is out of my price range. Thanks for including it.
Hammer (Felder) uses the CS system and does not control the motor assembly when it activates. They use magnets that disengage and allows the motor to just drop down. Our motor assembly is driven by servo motors and is controlled the entire way, not allowing the motor to bottom out or be damaged in any way. That is how we are able to be back up and cutting 10 seconds after the safety system activates.
Impressive technology. Definitely seems like this sensor approach is something that could eventually be scaled down to a hobbyist level similar to SawStop.
@@jameszaccardo1520 as of right now this technology took about 10 years to develop and it's essentially an option that costs around €10k. It will probably take years until it can compete with sawstop for hobbyists.
in principle its pretty simple concept, you can run basic machine vision with just a raspberry pi, triggering the safety system is just sending a signal to a relay, modifying off the shelf table saw to mechanically retract is probably the most complicated thing to solve, or maybe just replacing the blade height adjustment crank with a clearpath servo or just a nema 34 stepper, cranking that handle at around 1500rpm would most likely get the blade out of the way pretty quick and the whole system should be around 300-400usd in parts... (600-700 in case of clearpath servo)
@@dubi127 Conceptually it is indeed simple. That doesn't mean making it well is also easy. You have to have a vision system that works quick and well in all kinds of situations (dust, debris, ...) and you need to make sure that you have an extremely low level of false positives and absolutely no false negative. In other words: making a quick proof of concept is indeed not that hard, but making it into a product that works flawless is a lot less easy.
In Bavaria, every carpenter works with an Altendorf, or if the boss don't like the Altendorf and has the money, it's a Martin. But, since 1996, I worked on Altendorf Elmos F 45 for about 90 %, with CNC driven fence. Till today, a state of the art product, for me, the one and only 😁😂🧡‼️
Looks safe... I mean, I've never had modern electronics/ computers fail or glitch before, so I would stick my hand in there and bet my fingers on it I suppose.
I'd be interested to see the fmea on the machine vision system. I'd still much prefer having the saw stop system as well. I can think of a lot of plausible edge cases and combinations of conditions that could cause the machine vision system to fail. So while it is a fantastic improvement and can greatly reduce down time, I'd still much rather it augment a capacitive system like the saw stop. It doesn't replace it.
For the price, I am sure it will be better than I expect, but the camera technology scares me slightly. Cameras (mixed with a program) can do amazing stuff, but being fast and precise at the same time? The problems I forsee is probably only something a beginner does, and again, this isn't for them. I think having the capacitive blade, for backup, would be a better idea. Allin all, this is an amazing machine. Looks nice, has some nice features, and the sliding bed has always been an interesting design to me.
Certainly an awesome machine, BUT, it ain’t gonna fit in no two car garage and the price probably requires your first born and/or the south 40! Still, if you can afford the saw you can afford to build a shop to accommodate it.
I wish Festtool (who bought Sawstop) didn't sue bosch for trying to implement similar safety features into their saws. I really like boschs concept, just like sawstop they simply measure the conductivity of the material, to check if it's wood or your finger. but unlike sawstop they don't stop and destroy the blade by ramming a aluminum block into it with explosives, but instead use the explosives to shoot the blade downwards and therefore you just have to change the explosives and not the blade and aluminum block as well. it was a relatively cheap and very safe system. I'm just waiting for the sawstop patent to run out
YES! During the normal demonstration we show how the system activates even when there are sudden movements that can be caused by kickback or even someone slipping and reaching out to arrest their fall. I can TRY to grab the blade and cannot do so. It really is an amazing jump forward where safety is concerned in the shop.
saw this at IWF last year in Atlanta and spoke with the reps. Great technology, especially the reset (no replacement of breakblock or blade). Not sure if it will ever be cheap enough for the DIYer (that drop drive system is very expensive). Great to see you sharing it with everyone!!
Yea, didn't he say the carriage that is dropped down at high speed was 200+ kilograms (400+ lbs.). That's gonna need serious, high torque motor mechanisms. I assume this machine runs on 3 phase power.
Honestly i think it's stupid and will cause more accidents, you have a "safety" system that is active which is wrong the best systems default to the safe state meaning in the event of a failure it fails to safe. But with this people get careless when they think a bad outcome is impossible but you have a camera that could have issues, and computer that needs to interpret the information and finally a mechanical drive system add a few years of use and watch accidents skyrocket as you mix complacency with system failures
i watched the Altendorf demostration of this at Ligna (woodworking fair in Hannover/Germany) this year. Really impressive. The cameras even detected a childs hand
That's brilliant! Altendorf table saws are already awesome, and this tech makes them even better! Would love to see the camera/AI system added to smaller units.
I work in a small wood shop that has an older Altendorf with a 10 foot sliding bed. I can definitely attest to the quality. I’ve always said if I had a small shop of my own, and could only have one tool, it would be a sliding tablesaw, The precise cut beats anything I’ve seen.
What about if there is some sort of a kickback that pulls your hand side ways? Also the biggest challenges with this tech is fast retraction. Vision system would not be that difficult or expensive. Since it is not destructive, you could easily over do it for safety.
The cameras are positioned in a way that it can probably still see your hand until its well past the blade, plus I'm sure with something with that much tech in it, its got some sort of kickback sensor that can trigger the blade retraction, especially since its non-destructive.
I've known about their system for some time now and it really irks me, they only provide the handguard-tech on their top-of-the-line F45. As soon as they bring it to the way more affordable F6 they have a buyer in me. As for now: the 45k+(Euros) this baby costs isn't an option...
Know, if they can get that protective system down to the cost of a 3-5HP cabinet saw. Maybe between the costs of a cabinet saw and a SawStop cabinet saw. I would feel better about spending the SawStop price for this technology.
Seems cool, I wonder how it performs in a kickback scenario or time where the hand is moving at a much high velocity. For now I’ll stay with my sawstop ✔️
That coupled with the emergency brake would be amazing with regards to safety. Think of it as a failsafe in case the AI glitches. I work in technology and computers break down over time, so it wouldn't be a bad idea to combine the two technologies into one. This might actually be the first application of AI that I like.
I use a slider table saw every day at work. You utilize hold down clamps for the work piece you are pushing thru. Your hands should never be as close as they are putting their hands. So, there is no risk of pulling hand into blade. This is wonderful technology! If a slider is being used the way it is intended, then there is very little danger
@@ryanpalmiter6863The point of this technology is not to work only when you did everything right in the right conditions. Or a normal table saw will do the same.
@Maxime-ho9iv I agree! I was referring to OP saying kickback pulling your hand in. I think this technology is wonderful and this/sawstop technology should be required for all table saws. The seat belt of table saws
Great technology! We all owe a debt to SawStop’s inventor for forcibly creating this market, and it’s great to see new approaches towards the same goal: ten-fingered woodworkers!!
I had the good fortune to be able to use a top tier Altendorf tablesaw as my first ever experience with one. Absolutely incredible machine, thought through in every way possible. However, they should just take the L when it comes to competing with sawstop. AI and cameras? You kidding? You cannot make me believe that any system consisting of that many weakness will ever be as robust as a 3v current and an explosive charge. Prime example of where that reckless, brave American approach absolutely destroys the over engineered German one. It's about reaching people and saving fingers guys, sure, sawstop destroys your blade, but this shit will cost you more than a new hand.
I'm glad to be living in a time, place, and economy where technology like this is able to be developed. Yes it is expensive. Yes it takes a long time for the price to come down to a level where the hobbyist can afford it. However, here it is possible. I'm thankful to be here in America. Stay awesome.
@@XRRS24 Germany makes good products, but that doesn't mean they'll be affordable to the average consumer. These will likely bottom out at thousands of dollars, which is still outside the range of what most hobbyists would consider "affordable."
@@AuntJemimaGames sorry, I wasn't clear 😉 I replied because the other person was thankful to be in America, which I found art as the saw originates in Germany. Hence my remark 😉 Germany makes great tools and I wish I had an Altendorf in my garage! Cheers from the Netherlands 😉
I own a sawstop and yah its not the most powerful versatile tablesaw and yes its expensive but my fingers cost more than the extra cost of the saw. I like tbis tech. If i ever get a bigger shop i might consider this saw
Unfortunately that type of drop mechanism will always be expensive. The AI stuff is cheap to implement but the reason saw stop is cheap is because the way it drops ( even though it wrecks your blade ) is very simple and not complicated to make. I work in aerospace and I know a complicated mechanism when I see one. This will never be under 25 -30k imo. Very cool stuff though :) not trying to hate I would put the AI with a simple drop to lower price but I bet saw stop has some stupid parent on their drop.
It definitely looks like I need a lottery win in the next few weeks. I know there are add-ons to regular saws that provide the sliding feature, but the LED/Camera setup is definitely a game changer. The add-on sliders are just that, they're an add-on and not integrated and engineered into the saw itself. This makes them feel a bit out of place, no matter how well designed they are. I would love to have a saw like that, for the DIYer/small scale woodworker. It would be something to hand down to my children and grand children and possibly even my great grand children. Definitely an investment in the future of wood working in general. Can't wait to see what else you show from AWFS, since it would be quite a while for me to be able to go to one of these shows and they don't have anything, anywhere near as elaborate up here in the Great White North.
Time for me to start doing lottery. Then buy much bigger house with land for big workshop... in southeast London... with permission to use machinery in a residential area or create a huge basement... £3million, minimum
@@BradSnyderAltendorf Currently 40 minutes northeast of Calgary in a small town called Beiseker, Alberta. I may be moving a bit further north to help look after my parents, who live in Lacombe, Alberta.
@@chrisflavelle1200 Got ya, well Akhurst Machinery would be your go to then. I was kinda hoping you were in Alaska, give me an excuse to go up there and do some business while also visiting my brother and his family!!😄
I’ve used alfendorf saws in workshop environments most of my career. they are the best table saws on the market. The rolls Royce of saws for sure. once you use a sliding panel saw everything else feels like going back in time.
Thank you for the love! I can't agree more and not from an employee standpoint. I was looking at the Altendorf F25 for my own company prior to working for them and looked/researched and got hands on with others but the Altendorf design, materials and manufacturing results in the hands down best product available. Plus it will last long enough for me to pass it down to my kids.
@@BradSnyderAltendorf yeah they are incredible. Accuracy like nothing else and paired with a two or three bag extractor they are so clean. essential in a shop that’s cutting MDF for hours on end every day. Also, a small detail but changing the blade on a f45 takes me about 20 seconds. it’s just such a well designed saw.
Matt, very interesting mating high tech with high precision saw. Now waiting for what else you found at the show. Thanks for being our team on the go, looking for new/updated methods and tools.
The definition of adapt and overcome. Sawstop not wanting to release a patent so other companies use this technology to save peoples hands. This company developed a new way to stop injuries. Awesome!! Thanks Mighty Matt!
A patent they never should have been awarded since the technologies were already in touch to turn on lamps and well brakes are on every car. Or at least a 2-5 year utility patent only for combining them. Not this 20 year garbage they were awarded.
@@delxinogaming6046 If you read the patent case as was the understanding of most manufacturers that they should not have been awarded the patent in the first place. Since it was using two existing technologies. Which would have disqualified them for anything more than a 5 year utility patent. They later went on to get awarded a 20-year patent which was done under very dubious circumstances. The company was not started by people that wanted to make a difference it was made by people that were long time patent attorneys and abused their connections in the approval process to get awarded a patent they never should have been. This is why Europe does not recognize it and allows people like Bosch to have a competitive product. Since their's do not use a brake and capacitive technology was already existing in touch lamps from 1954 and those patents had long expired.
Don't forget sawstop also tried to get legislation passed that would have required their system on all industrial table saws which would have essentially gave them a monopoly.
This looks like an amazing piece of kit. Although i have heard reports for it struggling in poor lightning conditions and with shadow's, causing faulse activations. I would like to see this kind of safty feature become available on a machine designed for the smaller workshop, i believe that both Altendorf and felder only offer them on the larger models.
Not so surprising I suppose, but a shop should be really well lit anyways - so I wouldn't expect this to be a problem in real world conditions. If I can afford this saw, I can afford proper lighting for sure!
@@joeporkka2047 you make a great point. I am just going on reviews that I have read where a few of them said that they had to disable this safty feature due to faulse tripping of the blade and Altendorf said it was due to poor lightning. No personal experience as they are well out of my price range and far to big for my shop. I would love to have one though and did look at them at one point.
@@joeporkka2047 I agree completely, but in my case, even standing to the side can cast a shadow and keep it from “seeing”. But yes, if I can afford a saw that costs that much, I can afford adequate lighting! 🙂
Kg vs lbs: A lot of engineers in the US work in kilograms. It is compatible with the rest of the world. Being an Engineer in Canada we learn both Metric and Freedom Units.
We have both at work. The Altendorf is an amazing industrial machine, but way too expensive for medium to small shops. We hate our two SawStops. They fire the cartridge once a month without touching the blade.
Great video! Eventually advances in technology make what is high-tech today, obsolete or a runner-up tomorrow. Remember VHS?--> Made obsolete by compact discs --> made obsolete by streaming audio/video. With technology, you can never get too comfortable. Although SawStop has had an incredibly long run.
This is cool and I might look into one for my shop. This is not a saw stop killer and I dont think this company has any intention of competing in the same market with saw stop. SawStop doesnt make commercial production saws such as these, rather sawstop caters to a more average consumer base. Altendorf just needs one 10" 3HP cabinet saw with this tech and Sawstop might be in a bit of trouble.
That's pretty awesome tech! I appreciate I'll most likely never own that saw or one like it, but maybe that technology can be put into a saw more affordable to someone on my level. It took me more than 10 years to save up for the SawStop cabinet saw. I don't think I have it in me to save up enough for this one!
Seems super cool but would be even better if they could integrate the SawStop idea into it as a backup once the patents expire. Software can bug out but an electronic circuit that trips if something grounded comes in contact with it seems more reliable.
This saw brand is worth its weight in gold. I was using one that’s nearly 20 years old today and it’s still bullet proof and accurate. That new technology is amazing. Nice video mate
I'm not dissing this saw or video at all but it probably takes it's weight in gold to buy it! My 30-year old Jet still works fine so guess I'll stick with it. If I ever upgrade it will probably be a Sawstop 😃
Thanks for all the love! It is a double edged sword selling such a high quality product. I can 100% stand behind our machines but once I sell it to a shop... unless they grow in not going to be selling them another saw!
If you’re using a saw professionally, this saw pats for itself rather quickly. I can mill and process hardwoods and sheet goods far faster with much higher quality cuts and with far more accuracy. American cabinet saws can’t hold a candle to a good slider. And Altendorf saws are top notch.
Let me rephrase it. This saw is worth it weight in gold if you have a busy shop and are either processing timber from rough sawn to finish quality timber or are breaking down sheets of MDF and ply every day. It will pay for itself by way of less hours/ Labour to make a finished product ie. Furniture or door linings and solid timber doors for instance. 😊👍🏻
This is a fascinating leap in tech. I'm sure my SawStop was once looked at in a similar light a long time ago. My late uncle wished that I'd save up for a SawStop. I guess, when I'm in my mid-80s, I'll be telling people that THIS is a must have for the same reasons he told me. Thanks for sharing this with us... I doubt I would have seen it any time soon otherwise!!
That is a pretty sweet saw! Hopefully the guy who's using that at his job doesn't get careless with hand placement and then he goes home and gets on his Dewalt table saw and chops his fingers off😮
We bought a Altendorf saw around 2004,around 2015 was the first time a repair had to be done. This saw was used at least 4 hours a day,every day. Glad to see the new Hand Saver! They make a Really Great Saw! Thanks for the video.
Doing this with CV (computer vision, the right term for what they're calling "AI") is not reliable or safe. There are all sorts of ways there could be an obstruction, dirty lens, someone whose hand is oddly shaped, tattooed, not white, etc. whereby it could fail to detect. The mechanism by which it's driven down is very interesting but also not safe - it needs a lot of power which could fail to be available (eg blowing breaker) at the moment it's needed. Using this thing as a safety mechanism would be a huge liability issue. The leadscrew drive retracting the blade is quite interesting though and perhaps could be made safe with a SawStop type detector and spring loading to drive it in a fail safe way.
From a layered safety perspective, it would be great if a saw contained both technologies. If the hand recognition ever failed for whatever reason, the SawStop sensor could back it up. Thanks for sharing!
one of the reasons we pursued this was to allow the operators to cut ANY material on their saw. A capacitive system cannot cut aluminum, concrete/masonry products, "wet" hardwoods but our system has no issues with these and other materials causing false activations.
@@BradSnyderAltendorf Excellent points that I did not consider while looking through my “wood working” safety glasses. It’s an impressive machine and I applaud the engineering and technology that went into it. Now, how do you get a brochure packaged into every “Safety First” banner shipped to carpenter/machinist shops ? ;)
@@BradSnyderAltendorfWhy did you not demonstrate the most likely scenario of an accident & that’s a hand being pulled in from the back/side from a kickback? People don’t generally put their hands in the path of the saw, the hand gets sucked in in a milisecond during the cut.
i am sorry, but i cant really see an option for bandsaws... simply because where would the saw blade go? maybe some kind of resiprocating band saw, using just a section of a saw blade, being pulled down through material by the motor and back up just by spring tension, in an event of hand coming close, the connection of the blade to the motor below would release and the blade would "jump out" in a safe way on the back stroke? but then again, you loose the speed and advantage of using a bandsaw in the first place...
These big sliding table saws in general are super expensive. Like 25k. So I assume all the tech makes it even more. I don’t see this fancy camera based systems being out in an American cabinet saw and especially not on a job site saw. I would love to have even a basic slider with no safety feature but you need tons of space and tons of money for even that. That being said. Obviously this is insanely cool.
Carl, I can get you a brand new Altendorf slide saw for well under that. If you are seriously interested and want to invest in a machine that will last long enough to be handed down a generation, let me know and we can talk!
@@ejd53 Oh certainly but there are other companies that can build alternatives so hopefully this starts to become a thing There needs to be more competition and innovation. Saw stop can't be the ONLY dog in the park forever.
@@MemelordSupreme Well luckily, the patents started expiring in 2020, and things should be completely up by 2024 according to some research I did. Here's hoping.
I don't care if it is an industrial quality saw. They can't possibly be serious asking almost $70,000.00 US for ANY table saw. You could dang near buy a HOUSE for that, and it's way more than I paid for my new truck. Even running that saw for 50 years, you'd NEVER recoup the cost of that saw. Anybody who pays that for a saw must have rocks in their head in place of their brain. This is coming from an owner of MULTIPLE Festool, Mirka, Felder, etc. products because they are actual value for the higher prices they charge. Yeah, the tech is cool, and it seems to be well implemented, but hey, you can't expect to cover the R&D on something on your first 10 sales. Unless you think you'll only sell 10 of them in the next 100 years.
Pretty awesome! It's like laptops and PCs when they came out. Over 4 grand. Now you can get a decent one for less than a grand. Nice to see a real competitor to the Sawstop.
I'm from Texas and we don't use kilograms, micrograms, milligrams, kilometers, meters, micrometers, nanometers, just tons, pounds, ounces, feet, yards, miles, and inches. We don't use the fancy stuff; we just keep it simple down here. 🤣🤣
It’s awesome no doubt but unfortunately it’s hard to be excited for something 90%+ woodworkers will never be able to afford without putting ourselves in debt which is not smart to do these days. Seems like more and more these companies cater to those who are in the top 10-15% range of income. I make more than the average median income and I cant afford to even buy the entry level Sawstop tablesaw. I barely could afford my current Dewalt 8.25” table saw (really wish i could’ve gotten a 10”, makes a big difference), which cut the tip of my thumb off a few weeks ago). A sawstop table saw would’ve prevented that. And most of us can forget about Festool, woodpecker or even Kreg products. I’m not trying to be a whiner, I’m blessed with what I have considering my situation (I dont feel it’s appropriate to expound on that in a public forum). That being said I really enjoy this channel, wish I could patron more to support all you do. It’s encouraging to see a proud and vocal Christian man have some success. 👍
Folks, this is a commercial machine! Of course it comes at a huge cost. It is intended to run all day, every day for 20-30 years. It is not a hobby saw. Why is everyone so upset at the cost? To me, doing this professionally, the cost is incredibly reasonable. These saws pay for themselves very quickly. This is not a comparison to a SawStop. THAT is a hobby machine.
