Perhaps the next theorem video could be why move sets (like mix attacking, fast physical, bulky special, etc) are close to everything or the Dragonite theorem
For those unaware, Sashay in PBR uses stall sets when you fight her in the Masters Battle of Stargazer Colosseum. She uses Pokés like Confuse Ray-Sand Attack-Mean Look Umbreon, Double Team-Rest Registeel, and even a Subsititute-Spite-Swagger-Pressure Weavile, of all things. Her whole game is slowly PP stalling your Pokémon while you try not to throw your Wiimote through your television screen. Those two fights single-handedly taught me the value of Taunt.
Well when you consider stall’s absolute peak, you only have to look one tier lower in Gen 7. No Dug needed either. Absolutely horrifying Bliss-Alomomola-Unaware mon core. Worst of all Quag was innocent. They just replaced it with Pyukumuku and called it a day.
My most played metagame was Gen 7 UU, and nothing traumatized me more than seeing that stall core on the other side. Stall in Gen 7 UU is probably one of the strongest team styles in a Pokémon tier in history that didn’t involve something so hilariously broken that got banned.
The only thing I dislike about stall players is how they're just fine stalling for 50+ turns but as soon as they feel like there's a gap in their defense, they just forfeit the game immediately. It's a waste of time for both players.
Thats only logical tbh. Their games take longer and they respect their own time too. Whether the other player is having fun is up to themself to control, not the stall player. I'd hate even more if they still switch around still being an ass.
The most engaging match I've ever watched as a stall v stall battle that went to 1000 turn draw. Watching both players switch around jockeying for position was genuinely incredibly fun.
when i am playing stall on ladder I am not here to respect you I am here to waste your time and yap at you the whole battle give me all the disrespect i deserve
@@Eroil I know, I just started listening and thought that it sounded like the type of obscure niche history that he would ramble on about for 30 minutes 😂
@@charlesbyrd2452 yeah I think he takes them more seriously as they're a job of his, for his own videos he just does whatever he wants for the most part lol, pretty sure he takes it as mostly a hobby and not a serious job
Shoutouts to whomever had the bright idea to give Dugtrio of all Pokemon a 20 point boost to its base Attack in Gen 7. Imagine if Alolan Dugtrio had also gotten Arena Trap though.
@@danka1167 it's a shame because I always think about how cool it could be to have a trapping ability; basically forcing a Ko Everytime you come in similarly to first impression users. Then I get hit with the reality of how uncompetitive it can also be
I was at the forefront of banning all trapping abilities for YEARS by the time Arena Trap got banned, i made an enitre team abusing the hell out of trapping abilities just to prove how oppressive it was, and finally, it happened. I still remember the day Diglett replaced Dugtrio on SM Stall and feeling so damn validated...
apparently there were people using giga drain trapinch (no, i’m not kidding) back when arena trap was legal in early sword and shield ou because it could beat seismitoad aka the one dracovish counter in existence at the time
Funny enough PP stallers have not very good patience. Recently I battled a guy on Showdown that tried to stall me, the battle drag for more than 60 turns and he had the battle won because I had no attack moves but used sword dance to stall turns and 20 turns later my opponent forfeited. I have more patience than stallers
Honestly I can understand the appeal. Having a stall Pokemon just _feels_ clever. Like, instead of just going all out attack and stuff, like most Pokemon do, you go the defensive route. It feels good to have your opponents attacks do basically nothing while you slowly chip away at them, as if you somehow cheated the system lol. The only problem is that its infuriating for the opponent... I once battled against my brother using Defense-Form Deoxys and he got really frustrated and bored, so I felt bad about it. :(
My main complaint with stall players is the fact that by extending the game to ridiculous lengths and giving you multiple chances to throw out attacks: they have the audacity to complain about crits and hax. Your strategy literally creates more opportunities for me to hax you with a random crit. It's your fault for losing to it. I also just couldn't stand the insane scald rng cause by virtue of battles going on for a while: burns would be almost guaranteed at one point and this led to a lot of frustation.
any stall player whining about hax is not a true player of stall, you play for 200 turns you accept that you are gonna get crit. if you don't wanna make that deal go play ho
@@alextintyrn291 iam not complaining about crits iam complaing about oneshots is not the same if you have a long battle even pokemon with low crit rate will eventually crit what my complain is about, is some pokemons stats being crazy high also some natures are just superior. crits ignore stats for a reason so even pokemons with high defence plus status moves can be counter and that is ok. i just dont think someone should be able to oneshot someone at the first turn because power creep go brrrrr
Genuinely i don’t understand how you can hate playing stall. ‘I have better things to do’ you’re playing showdown, just click X and do the better things. And beating stall overtime is the most rewarding matchup in showdown, ig people prefer playing against HO, set up to die x5 then gambit sweeps
@@danka1167 most people don't like to be held in a single match for potentially over an hour. If a person is going to lose, it shouldn't really take that long.
@@watery2211 it's a pride thing. People who are into competitive games have some level of pride, some are just willing to swallow it others. Mind you, I don't really play competitive/pvp type games, so this is mostly what I've picked up from people who actually play. I probably would equate it to a boss with a cheap move/trick. It's not really that hard to beat, but the level of annoyance is mostly the issue.
I'm being fr when I say the comments were more engaging than the video. The sheer vitriol people have towards the playstyle roles back to being funny to me. Not that it's an unjust hatred or anything, but man, the levels people exaggerate it are eternally entertaining
Oh people complain about playstyles they hate all the time. If you want a game where Stall is completely unviable, look at YugiOh and how people there complain about how it's all about Hyper Offence nowadays. Basically people will always find a reason to complain, no matter what. Part of human nature really.
On paper, Fezandipiti looks like the ideal stallbreaker, packing Taunt and Toxic (Chain) to mess with walls as well as Roost for recovery and U-turn to pivot. But its only stat above 100 being Special Defense and Poison/Fairy leaving it weak to both Great Tusk and Kingambit, 2 of the most used Pokemon in OU, as well as being useless against Gholdengo without Heat Wave really puts a damper on it.
I like semi-stall lockpick-shotgun style; late game mega-slowbro sweep is hype, especially when they don't expect the Trick Room. What makes me laugh is when other stall players get pissy with me for playing stall.
I appreciate this small overview of the times stall was relevant, I think anaylsis of gameplay styles and their popularity is fun, especially since you can see how various changes throughout the generations affected both its viability and usage. Shoutouts to Dugtrio for being a constant menace. It being a little arsewipe is kind of why I like it. Something people don't look at before talking about stall, and something even talked about in this video: most of the time (I won't deny that sometimes it can be a chokeholding strategy in certain metagames), it is absolutely beatable, but requires a different mindset than the other types of teams. Hot take: I actually like using stall. A stall v. stall match is absolutely insufferable sometimes, no doubt, but it's also an incredible game of chess for both players. Course, this also tracks, I like playing control decks in various card games because I like being able to choke out my opponent, (though, ironically, I don't typically play zoners. My preferred type of character is whatever the hell Hakumen is. Or Kaguya from UNI2. Or Archetype Earth from Melty. Or grapplers.) My other hot take is that it's also just as annoying when Hyper Offense is dominant. I'd like to actually play my game, you know. If I wanted super fast games, I'd go play VGC (and I do like the format! It's actually my preferred style). A good metagame should be able to at least accomodate all kinds of game styles without one being totally and completely choked out. I also totally stalled anyone who read all of this. Enjoy your reading debuff! - signed, a control player.
The best strategy to use against stall players is to forfeit at team preview. If we all do that then they'll get bored of not actually being able to battle anyone, and will then use a different team. At the very least it means I don't waste any time slamming my face against a brick wall.
One of the most satisfying things, are those crits against stall players that have just switched, recovered, repeat - you call the switch, you get a crit with a super effective hit and a core piece goes down. Then they moan about it, not realising the main point of crits is to handle bulky-walls and -sweepers from becoming to overbearing
Had a Stall player who whines about hax when I crit his Quagsire with a crit Earthquake from Mega Garchomp. Was one of the most entertaining moments I’ve experienced in Showdown ever.
It’s funny because design wise one reason crits exist and function like they do is to discourage stall specifically. It rewards more aggressive play and discourages stall, because the more you attack, the more likely you’ll eventually hit a critical that can matter. If you’re expecting to take dozens of hits, you need to be prepared for a few crits among them
Perhaps the next theorem video could be why move sets (like mix attacking, fast physical, bulky special, etc) are close to everything or the Dragonite theorem
Месяц назад
I want to see another ‘Why X is NOT everything’, to be honest.
Stall is so incredibly anti fun. I dont feel outplayed, i don't feel out built, i feel the dread of knowing i have to be here for the next hour. Stall is the sole reason i went doubles over singles. Anymore i queue into stall in singles i just ff. I can get my mmr back, i cant get my hour back.
You don't understand, the pleasure of stall is derived from the salty tears of our opponents who can't break through us with their uncreative meta teams with the same 3 sweepers.
You make the suspect assumption that stall players are having “fun”, and are not just soulless automatons who just click buttons and also probably pour the milk in before their cereal.
@@cylland5060H0 is over quickly. If you dislike the matchup it’s almost immediately over cause you stop it or lose. It’s like comparing a 30 meter sprint vs Usain Bolt to a marathon against a bronze medalist. One is over right away you move on, the other lasts so long you’re sore and irritable.
@@yeet8036 setup isn’t mindless either by that logic, I was just pointing out the logical fallacy of calling out a lack of intelligence in a strategy that doesn’t foolish waste everyone’s time vs a strategy that is literally a synonym for “extend beyond normal time. “ stall isn’t some high brow megamind play. The developers have been reducing stalls power for generations because of how brainlessly powerful and unfun it is. Hyper-offense might not be a genius tester but it’s intelligent enough to respect your time. Maybe YOUR time has no value but that’s not common
@@Skullhawk13 "Maybe your time has no value but that's not common" I don't even play stall. You're replying to every comment under this video and how you hate certain playstyle in video game. I think you have enough free time.
I usually watch your videos at x2 speed because I feel like you speak a bit too slow for my hyperactive brain; but just for this one I commited to the bit and played it normal speed. Glory to big stall.
I love stall - I remember being like 10 and laughing playing Pokemon stadium 2 beating my friends using only a single Chansey with double team, softboiled, toxic, and submission
Next video pls on " how good was kommo- o actually" , it has been the most underrated pseudo legendary mon , and the only pseudo not yet covered in this channel 🙏❤️❤️
@@skeetermania3202 pult has been for only 2 generations is quite popular bcoz of both anime and comp Pokemon, but kommo-o has been for 3 generations now still it's so underrated
The ONE TIME, I don't fully prepare for stall is always the time that my best friend makes a stall team and I have to sit there and watch myself slowly die.
Stall players really out here extending the battle past 100 turns but then get insanely mad when one critical hit occurs. Like sorry maybe don't waste time next time 🤷♀️
Ultra Sun and Moon were great metagames after this period though. Knock off spam being a lot weaker as well as the Megas and Z-moves made for a really fun metagame. Mag was a bit much but overall it was a great meta
@@RandalfElVikingoFunbro is banned because it causes endless battles(not exaggerating, literally endless. Its even banned from AG because it serves no purpose other than Trolling)
I am 100% sincere when I say I would be more than happy to equivalent exchange Baton Pass play in exchenge for banning Stall. At least Baton Pass sets that get set up end quickly, and the counterplay is as simple as "Taunt, Defog, or dont let them build up."
I think one thing that makes stall too strong in gen 2 (and even gen 3, honestly) is the lack of offensive items. Meaning in most cases items will benefit stall without doing anything for offense. In gen 2 basically everything runs leftovers, in gen 3 you have choice band but... that's pretty much it. Not even a special equivalent so Alakazam has no item. Gen 4 is to this day the most anti stall generation and introduced the majority of offensive items
That is wrong, in gen 2 offensive teams are currently far more common than stall teams. In gen 2 turn counts are just higher, because you can max out all defenses with EVs, but a long turn count does not mean it is stall, the teams still make progress mostly by attacking. Thief and Explosion are used that often in current teams for a reason Gen 3 is pretty much the most balanced generation in terms of offense vs defense out of all of them. Even TSS teams range from offensive to defensive. In gen 3 you have one of the biggest anti-stall features: Sandstorm. All damage sticks, there is no way to heal passively without being sand immune and the mons with active recovery are mostly wish users that require 2 moves lots to heal reliably. Like, skarmory as an example has no recovery besides leftovers, even if damage is low, it will continue to lose HP over the course of the battle. And Blissey can't heal of spikes damage with leftovers, therefore even threats that get totally walled by it like Jolteon and Moltress can get through it by racking up spike damage, by continued switching, baton pass or roar Gen 4 is not anti-stall, there is a reason Clef is used that often. I am not saying it does not have offensive teams, just saying claiming it is anti-stall is wrong, it is a regularly used team style there as well
@@Skullhawk13 Nah, Solitaire in this is Baton Pass Teams. With Stall you have to actively keep in mind what your opponent is doing at the given moment and makes moves based off of that.
@@CaptainJLinebeck I understand baton pass is some irrational hatred that shakes Smogon to its core and any attempt to argue it’s acceptable in anyway is pointless. However at least it’s over MUCH much faster
@@Skullhawk13 bp got canned for it's ability to turn the game into "do you have a bp answer?" if yes win, if no then gg. It would be nice if the move was allowed but the complexity of a ban where that team style is impossible but the move is legal isn't smth smogon likes. That said people saying stall is worse than BP are tripping lol. The games may be long but unless you've built a poor team you can definitely handle it you just need to be careful how you build (bc trappers are banned so you don't need to worry about that)
almost like doing nothing but switching and healing every now and winning against exclusively noob players unprepared for it reflects upon the less skilled
I haven’t even started the video and yet I’m reminded of how much I *LOATHE* stalling teams I like to hit things and make them dead and this impedes my progress
I used to dislike stall, but then i tried stall… it’s actually really fun, and it engages your strategic brain in different ways than your standard offense
One of my fondest memories is sweeping an Ubers Stall team with a shell smash Minior. The other guy had no idea what its ability did, so he switched around to try and do something as I got to +6.
