The most nerfed card in Hearthstone history…and it's still out of control! 

The easiest nerf I think would be that after the quest reward, damage dealt to yourself ALSO damages an opponent, not INSTEAD. This way you would have to heal not only through quest damage, but all other damage needed to kill your opponent. Plus it woulnd kill the flavour

Stormwind is the worst set that ever got released.

I still fully believe they need to shift its functionality from transferring damage to sharing damage. Warlock still takes the hit, but so does opponent. Very much the feeling of "if I'm going down, I'm taking you with me!"

You forgot to mention the basic change to Warlock where losing life is now different from taking damage.

Craziest thing about this deck back in the standard era was that i more than often didn’t lose to the self-damage transferal, but rather the giant broom shenanigans, those damn questline lifesteal ticks

_"For the rest of the game, after you take damage on your turn, summon a Demon with that many stats."_ Boom. No instant face damage.

They could nerf this quest by making each part "discard 2 cards", and the reward could be a 5 mana spell that opens a portal. (The portal summons two 3/2 imps each turn)

the issue it's the cart itself, it should have never been printed

cyrstallizer and raise dead reminded me of one game i had with a demon seed deck... turn 1: play quest turn 2: play 2x crystallizer (part 1 complete ) turn 3: kill both to opponents 3/2 minion, tap, raise dead, crystallizer (part 2 complete) turn 4: tap, raise dead, crystallizer (part 3 complete) turn 5: play quest reward turn 6: brann, 2x crystallizer, spirit bomb grand total of 30 damage to the enemy face from all of this...

At this point I think the only way to balance the demon seed is to make the reward heal you instead of taking damage from your cards, that way it would no longer be a win condition

an idea i think can work is the questline reward being like a 3/1 lifesteal with "after this deals damage, die!" (insted of deal 3 with lifesteal letting u poke it to reduce the healing) and make the 7/7 have lifesteal then make it so u summon a demon with stats insted of taking damage with maybe insted of lifesteal it has something like "heal for half of damage dealt" has it forces heal to be in deck and ad the quest then can be like 5/6/7 or 6/7/8 to finish lets it be strong and really not kill a deck but really slows it down (maybe if this change kills the deck add rush to the demons summoned so it heals u for half of what u deal and maybe make it only heal on your turn and not the first turn it deals damage or something like that)

Maybe it should be limited to damage you directly take from your own cards. This would take fatigue and damage your opponent's cards deal during your turn out of the equation at least

I was thinking that changing it to count instances of dmg taken your turn, instead of amount of dmg taken would slow it enough to make it fair

Change the quest line procs to 5 damage, tamsin Battlecry to “Your hero can’t be damaged on your turn”

The Demon Seed is the main problem in the deck but not the only one, Darkglaire is also a huge a problem even after two nerfs and the Giants can be cheated out way too easily because there is too much cheap self damage and healing.

yeah i was just thinking about how badly designed that questline is, i dont think there was ever a time where it was "balanced", it was either meta breaking, banned or just terrible

The thing with The demon seed is the more card they add to help substain the dmg you do to yourself the more likely the card will became powerful. And since all card which also dmg to yourself come with high benefit like card draw/also hero power who do the same, you are less likely to pay the price from bad draw.

It may make the card inconsistent with other quest lines but i think changing the final reward from a battlecry effect to a death rattle effect could also slow things down

Druid did not have many problems with Demon seed before introduction of "draw two shuffle two" card. Double Naturalize played at right time could easily fatigue warlock to death, as quest only works on his turn. But now, when instead of fatigue infinite self-damage and broken tempo is a key to victory... Idk how to counter it.

Please just make the damn tamsin card say 'opponent takes it *too*' that way ql warlocks kill themselves to kill their opponents and they really need to spec into healing to use tamsin to win the game. That, I would say, would be the first step in the right direction.

We need super wild. A new version of wild where demon seed isnt banned

I'm new to Hearthstone, so I really appreciate these videos about the history.

one of the best content of hearthstone will thought, will written, will presented. keep up the good work zeddy.

Upcoming nerf leak: Questline: Destroy YOUR hero. Reward: Blightborn Tamsin

I think the mini rewards are also a problem no one talks about. Lifesteal deal 3 helps a lot for survival

I think 75% of the issue is the questline and 25% is that just like in magic the gathering, when they print standard or commander cards, they don't test them for modern or legacy. It really feels like none of the standard cards are ever tested for wild, only the caverns of time cards were thought through at all. Between bots swarming and a few specific decks in both standard and wild this past week, we are seeing streamers take a break and that is a major concern for the company and players.

The quest lines are hit and miss, but the problem of banning demon seed is that it's always going to be broken . Banning it brings up , open the waygate as a location or out right banned . This creates just an awful domino effect of which cards get banned . Plus botting is still a problem

The first darkglare and fleshgiant nerf was in scholo/darkmoon, so the demon seed wasn't in the game yet

I think in wild Blizzard needs to start banning quite a few problem cards i.e The Demon Seed, Secret Passage, Patches the Pirate etc. Cards that have consistently dominated some of the most broken decks and archetypes throughout Hearthstone's history.

Been playing since gadgetzan. The demon seed made me quit for 2 years. Glad I can play standard without that card. I’ll never touch wild.

I like that runed mythril rod was nerfed because of the questline for Zddy even though it was one of the craziest mana cheat of its time

i dunno if it's doable but i would change it to "damage you take from YOUR CARDS on your turn"

I love control decks and my problem with it as you mentioned, they just chill at 1 dmg away from completing it and then they complete it and play it instantly i never had a chance to dirty rat it because of it, thats the worst feeling

Maybe a nerf to the Tamsin could be every 5 damage you take you deal 3 damage with lifesteal to the enemy hero? That way it still rewards you for self damaging but you cannot be super reckless

What if fatigue damage wouldn’t work with the demon seed anymore, that would mean they have to kill you with self damage cards

I wish bans worked in a way that you couldnt have a certain combination of cards in your deck. I guess discover/random gen could still get the cards but I think it would help the meta

Every quest and questline just needs to get the axe in wild. They are known design mistakes, and promote incredibly toxic gameplay. It's time to appropriately deal with them.

Sharing the damage won't even be thematically off... the card voiceline literally says "all of stormwind will *share* my pain".

What if it didn't count fatigue damage? It would keep the self damage synergy but it would lose the inevitability of fatigue.

Keep up the good work Zeddy

Great video. Keep it up

I think if you take away the lifesteal quest reward? It will make it more vulnerable

Revert the card to original state and change text to ”damage from your cards and hero power”

It should give you a hero power which has the effect of

I have loved this card ever since it got printed and as much as I love the deck it needs a really big nerf. I've seen a couple suggestions for a nerf like "Also damages the enemy hero" and not instead. This would absolutely kill the card. What I suggest is nerf Tamsins cost to 7 or even 8 mana. Slow and control decks can Disrupt while aggro has a chance to run you down.

No card in this game should read: For the rest of the game, ever.

For the rest of the game your charge minions have +1 attack.

While yeah I agree that Blightborn Tamsin (And almost all the "Rest of the game" effects) are terrible design.. I was watching Rarran play tons of Demon Seed games yesterday and 90% of the games were won before the questline reward was even played

Pain warlock still one of the best decks in standard even without the demon seed's help

"MAYBE SHADOWSTEP" yep this vid earned my like.

Great video! I love this card personally, but can see how it's problematic. A suggestion I have is to revert the card to its original form in terms of requirements, but nerf Tamsin to instead damage your opponent as well as yourself, or split self-damage across both players. That would force more interesting situations where you still have to watch your own health but still get the thrill of damaging your opponent in an interesting and unique way.

What about a card that can silence a global effect? Would be great in standard with the bran issue as well xD

What about to change: Fór rest of game, damage you would take during your turn will oponent take too, same amount

what if they made tamsin do only half the damage rounded down though. that would make all the deal 3 cards absolutely terrible

I actually just thought of a way to kill the current demon seed meta pretty decisively. Make it so that taking hits to armor doesn't count for the quest. It has to be health. That would take out a big part of crystalizer's usefulness I think.

Start playing obscure decks, like Mill Rogue. I'm sure Mark could give you a few decklists for it.

I've always despised the design of quests. They always start in your hand and are uninteractible whenever the player piloting the deck has more experience and understands they can hold off on completion until they can play the reward on the same turn to bypass any Dirty Rat effects. When they are too good, you play Solitaire. I don't understand why they haven't reworked this card already. Just because it doesn't see Meta play doesn't mean it's well-designed or fixed the problems. Stormwind is the worst designed expansion in Hearthstone.

Another solutiin. First tíme you will také damage during your turn, summon démon of 7/X with lifesteak instead, X is amount of damage

At this point it's better to straight up ban/delete the card

It should also damage yourself as well as your opponent instead of ONLY your opponent

just make it that fatique does not count after the quest is fulfilled

Hey Zeddy, why everybody stopped talking about weakly quests?! We need to make it clear to blizzard that this minor change won’t slide in!!!Could you make another video about the quest problem?

Zeddy dosen't stop with "seedlock is too strong" 😅

Battleground Battlemaster was 100% nerfed because of Paladin, I argue that Warlock had nothing to do with it...

Imagine putting once per turn on tamsin

Reduce the questline requirements and change Tamsin's battlecry to: For the rest of the game, first time you take damage on your turn damages your opponent instead

So... who wants to bet. how many more nerfs, it will take to fix demon seed? 15 , 18 , 21. I can keep going.

It really is a good example of itself. Takes damage (nerfs) again and again, still f%(ing kills you.

Most of the cards that were nerfed from demon seed decks deserved the nerfs. Touch and rod saw play after the nerfs.

Best card for the best class ever

I'm not even sure that would be enough, but it might have been ok if ONLY your fatigue damage, damage the opponent instead

I actually think it’s darkglare that is the problem but still demon seed is pretty rad

Honestly it should read deal 20 dmg to yourself on all 3 phases.

I feel like no one would complain if they gutted the card completely. Talking Warsong Commander levels of gutted. Its time.

Release Demon Seed got me to legend for the first time.

Crystalizer is the problem here

You got crystal core, much earlier you got rogue with a mini bot magnitezed at 20/20 windfury OTK wtf...

theyre fine gutting other decks but not this just GUT IT

THE SHOP IS STILL BROKEN ON MOTOROLA DEVICES I LIKE TO SPEND MY MONEY FOR THE MINI SET.

Would love to see a Zeddy video where he talks about how Warlock always gets the most broken cards in the game.

Omg the card is normal it's just doing fine, I feel like the only time you guys consider a card OK when it's below avg stat,...

What if you make tamsin 10 mana? Itll allow counterplay in most cases since they most likely won't be able to take the final damage without spending mana, and when they do its not so consistent allowing you to dirty rat etc. Also 10 mana in wild is quite slow for a 7/7

Maby a good nerd is just change the card for exsemple: you can not take damege yourselfe from fatiche or card in your turn

This quest and wayfraggate mage has fucking wrecked any wild meta. Like seriously - otk still is uninteractive garbage that can just ruin things. Shaman questline isn't even dominating anymore because they gave Warrior one turn to do that.

demon seed one of if not the best card design ever sadly always broken so ppl hate on it (I like it tbh but I know it's way 2 much meta)

God forbid Warlock mains have something good 🤣

Demon Seed was fine before miniset. Just nerf Dark Glare NOT to give free mana

Yes lets fix the demon seed so we can start crying about the next top deck.

It's not the Quest that is the problem, it is their lack of balancing the game around WILD rather than STANDARD that is!

Im still autoconceding to that crap

I dont think any "for the rest of the game" should exist in hearthstone

blud wanted to kill the card.

wow out of control for sure!

Magic players over here just adapting to metta or the card get's outright banned

I like it that way

They should just ban it, most other card games have perma banned cards that are problematic, why can't hearthstone do the same? Why do they need to nerf it to unusability, instead of just banning it? It saves the devs time.

"Brand new video" he says while talking about the demon seed being broken for the 43rd time

I both love and hate this card. I love the design thag enourages a slower , more high risk/high reward kind of play. But I HATE bow easy it is to abuse and turn it into an abomination against mankind.

I think in standard problem is turn 3 paladin and hunters stupid zilliax module buff is mistake they should remove this text every pain warlock hunters and paladins playing zilliax buff module

I dont know, why they didn't make it so you just simply can't take self damage on your turn and thats it. No damage reflection - no disbalance Or maybe make it so self damage heal you instead, if questline reward will be too weak.