The Music prof. Breaks Down Bernstein on Beethoven 7

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0:00 Introduction with Loki
0:36 This is one of the most unremarkable melodies
1:14 Bernstein’s showing off
1:31 Allegretto tempo
1:46 “It isn’t a good tune”
2:33 The primary element is rhythm
3:15 Schubert was obsessed with this material
4:00 "Do you like the melody?"
4:36 The chromatic drop
5:10 Is Beethoven a great melodist?
6:00 “There’s nothing there!”
6:21 "He spent his whole life trying to write a good fugue"
7:26 Comparison with Mozart
7:40 The late fugues
8:23 The Archduke trio
8:49 Simplicity is a hugely undervalued quality
9:31 The Russian tradition of melody
9:45 Beethoven learnt his compositional tricks from Haydn
10:08 "Beethoven was a nobody!”
10:49 An example from the Appassionata
12:24 Orchestration? The 8th Symphony
13:04 Beethoven’s deafness affecting his textures
14:21 Bernstein’s hyperbole
14:41 Mahler’s reorchestrations of Beethoven
14:59 Slightly old fashioned gestures in late Beethoven
15:24 Comparison with Berlioz and the younger generation
16:36 Lenny’s really going for Beethoven
17:14 "In Beethoven’s case, the form is all”
18:28 "No composer ever had that - even Mozart!”
18:41 “It’s so unpredictable and so right”
19:09 “He struggled!”
19:31 Works that Beethoven was planning when he died
19:58 A digression about Beethoven’s unfinished String Quintet sketch
21:12 Beethoven’s crazy life
22:28 Struggling with severe disability
23:00 “…phoned in from God!”
23:42 Berio and sculpture
24:02 "But he wrecked himself trying to achieve this inevitability”
24:43 “It could be no other way.”
25:01 Berlioz listening to Beethoven’s 5th symphony
In this video Matthew King reacts to an extract from Leonard Bernstein’s conversation with Maximilian Schell about Beethoven’s 7th Symphony. The focus of the discussion is the famous Allegretto second movement. Bernstein’s comments on the piece are characteristically brilliant and perceptive but also full of hyperbole and exaggeration. Matthew King analyses Bernstein’s remarks, using them as a springboard for a broader discussion about Beethoven’s life and work.
The original discussion between Maximilian Schell and Leonard Bernstein about Beethoven’s 6th and 7th symphonies can be seen here: • Leonard Bernstein Disc...
Matthew King's discussion about West Side Story can be seen here: • West Side Story and Be...
Bernstein can be seen conducting the Vienna Philharmonic in the Allegretto from Beethoven’s 7th Symphony here: • Ludwig van Beethoven ...
Beethoven's Allegretto can be hear in Carlos Kleiber’s superb performance (and tempo) with the Royal Concertgebouw orchestra here: • Carlos Kleiber Beethov...
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#Bernstein #Beethoven7 #TheMusicProfessor

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28 июн 2024

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Комментарии : 245

@BeethovenIsGrumpyCat 18 дней назад

"Beethoven is not a great melodist" really means "Beethoven did not write Italian opera."

@jaydenfung1 27 дней назад

"Such music shouldn't be written." I feel like Beethoven would've taken it as a compliment!

@InfiniteSingularity3.14 27 дней назад

This video brought back a vivid memory from my college days. I once had a music professor who, during a lecture, sat down and played the opening part of a Beethoven piece. He then proceeded to criticize it extensively. For a long time, I wondered about the basis of his critique. Watching Leonard Bernstein here, I now realize that my professor had merely copied Bernstein's exact critique without any originality. Even back then, I felt that my professor's harsh criticism was unwarranted. After all, he could not compose a piece even remotely as brilliant as Beethoven's works. I should also add that his way of putting Beethoven down was to compare him to Mozart who is one of the greatest composers of all time. To have to use Mozart as a way of putting the other composer down is in itself a compliment. It's fascinating to see how true genius, like Beethoven's, stands the test of time, while pretentious critiques fade away.

@sciagurrato1831 26 дней назад

Reminds me of of a music professor at an Ivy who did exactly the same thing - suggesting “improvements” to several well known masterpieces. This professor thought Roger Sessions (who?) was a great composer of our time.

@keithsparrow7717 25 дней назад

This Bernstein exposition has also been taken apart by others, e.g. Thomas Goss on 'Orchestratikn Online'

@christianvennemann9008 22 дня назад

I have the opinion of quality over quantity when it comes to the comparison of Beethoven to Mozart. Yes, Beethoven "only" wrote 9 symphonies, whereas Mozart wrote 40. However, in my opinion, the quality of Beethoven's 9 symphonies (especially 5, 6, 7, and 9) outshine Mozart's quantity of 40 symphonies. But that's just my (hopefully) unpretentious opinion.

@CommonSwindler 27 дней назад

A lot of people are completely missing Bernstein’s tone here. Bernstein is not “critiquing” Beethoven, he is enunciating how from elements. which extricated from each other are limited, are a constellation of sound taken as a whole. Colors are just colors on their own, but arranged in certain way, they’re the Sistine Chapel.

@johnboyd9854 27 дней назад

Very poetic and well put.

@themusicprofessor 26 дней назад

Exactly

@rithmx 25 дней назад

I think people do get that point, but the point of criticism is that Lenny is really going out of his way to critique Beethoven (usually unfairly) and barely revealing an alternative motive he may have had. In other words, Bernstein's kind of a prick.

@Open2Reason 24 дня назад

@@rithmx If Leonard was actually critical of Beethoven, he wouldn’t have spent some of his life’s work conducting some of the most perfected, most memorable performances of Beethoven’s work. The guy loved Beethoven, clearly, and he knew how his compositions should have been performed. I recently watched a RU-vid video of Bernstein conducting a performance of the 3rd piano concerto. Bernstein’s demeanor was that of pure joy. I can’t remember the name of the pianist, but they hugged each other at the end, because I think they both knew they had performed to perfection. It was that good. This is not a man who dislikes Beethoven. His “critique” is intended to explain the beauty and genius of simple melodic gestures and expressions. But I don’t think he was suggesting in any way that Beethoven was somehow limited to that.

@robertoriggio117 23 дня назад

What I think many are missing, including the host, is that Bernstein loves Beethoven. He's making a point about Beethoven's genius. He's purposely exaggerating the mediocrity of isolated elements in Beethoven's music as being deceptive. He's identifying why it's so hard to put your finger on what made Beethoven the genius he was. It's elusive to analysis.

@Iceland874 27 дней назад

That passage grows and becomes so majestic. I love the 7th. Great video. Thank you.

@JazzGuitarScrapbook 27 дней назад

Ooh please do Glenn Gould being rude about Mozart! Pleeeeeeeaaase

@themusicprofessor 26 дней назад

Brilliant idea. I'd be happy to try.

@aaronpolichar7936 27 дней назад

The harmony, rhythm, and form are what make the melody good. And the melody and rhythm are what make the harmony good. Beethoven was a composer. He composed pieces, he didn't write any of those elements as an entity in itself. Composers put things together.

@leecornwall8381 27 дней назад

The deep ness of Beethoven’s music is unique.

@jackmooradian2858 26 дней назад

How deep is that ness?

@Dazbog373 27 дней назад

The scale of Beethoven's genius is simply unimaginable. We forget the fact he started going deaf in his late 20s. And yet composed the late string quartets, etc. while almost stone deaf. As Schopenhauer said: "Talent is the ability to hit a target few others can hit. Genius is the ability to hit a target no one else can see."

@VisiblyJacked 27 дней назад

honestly that is not such a big deal. Any talented musician, fully trained, would be able continue to write music and hear the music in his head after going deaf in adulthood. Beethoven's massive talent and his personal suffering is more to the point.

@Dazbog373 27 дней назад

@@VisiblyJacked Spoken as someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. Keep being jacked tho

@feraudyh 25 дней назад

@@Dazbog373 I had a musician friend who could look at a symphony and hear it in her head. I was impressed, but she said it was just a consequence of a thorough musical education.

@Dazbog373 25 дней назад

@@feraudyh oh really, and what did she compose to compare with even the worst of Beethoven?

@feraudyh 25 дней назад

@@Dazbog373 she was not a composer at all. She was a musical copyist. On her desk were the handwritten scores of lots of composers and she would use a PC application to turn them into printable files. She worked for Boulez for example. May she rest in peace. PS She sometimes noticed mistakes in the scores and this did not always sit well with her clients.

@Jasper_the_Cat 27 дней назад

I think the last movement of Mahler's 9th falls into the territory, too. It's the beautiful harmonic movement in conjunction with the simple melody that works so well.

@RichardGreen422 27 дней назад

Part of excellent teaching is leaving students with something they remember. Bernstein's rhetoric here does that--after all, who else would consider *criticizing* Beethoven. The takeaway--that no individual component of Beethoven is the best ever, but that his music is indispensable because it is so much more than the sum of its parts--is correct. I find both his analysis and his communication of it brilliant. And FWIW, he was a great Beethoven conductor. I enjoy his second NYPO 7th as much as anyone's, and his Missa Solemnus with the Concertgebouw is a world-beater. I am glad RU-vid led me to your channel.

@petersilktube 26 дней назад

I don't know, I think we forgive Bernstein a lot because of his obvious musical excellence. But I sort of think here that he's being deliberately provocative to no particular end, and not truly believing his own words. I think it's possible to be a great teacher without the polemic. It's a bit distracting. It's harder to learn the important thing you say in sentence 2 if you said a ludicrous thing like beethoven being bad at harmony in sentence 1.

@joejoejoe532 13 дней назад

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@@petersilktube I have to respectfully disagree: Bernstein’s analysis here, exaggerated in places to be sure, is exceptionally effective in its purpose, which is to inspire us to conduct our own exploration of Beethoven’s music. Particularly he is inspiring a non-academic public to listen to Beethoven more closely. A traditional lecturer that just lists examples after examples of excerpts of the great melodies, harmonies, and orchestrations of Beethoven’s music would put me to sleep. That’s because such a lecture would completely miss the greatness of Beethoven. As students we will never grasp Beethoven’s greatness by listening to excerpts: we HAVE to hear it whole, and that helps us appreciate the parts that make up the whole. But by piquing our interest with what APPEARS to be a negative bashing of Beethoven then concluding that his music is inevitably perfect due to the sum of its parts, we are galvanized to listen far more closely and enthusiastically.

@haroldsdodge 22 дня назад

What an absolutely brilliant video. Thank you Prof, there are so many wonderful insights in your clip. One other thing about Beethoven is the depth of his emotional connection with the listener, what you could almost call his empathy. A presenter on BBC Radio 3 (can't remember who I'm afraid) put it superbly when he reviewed recordings of Beethoven's 5th for R3's "Building A Library" series. At one point the presenter said something like, "while I was putting this programme together I was going through a very difficult time in my life, and I thought, 'Thank God it's Beethoven'." I know exactly what he meant.

@jihanjoo 21 день назад

I also took Bernstein's commentary to be highly complimentary of Beethoven. When he says, "that's not a melody" or "that's not a good melody," he's not saying Beethoven doesn't know how to write a good melody. And I don't think he is contradicting himself when he also says "I like it too." What he seems to be saying is, "Even with this motivic material that may be considered by some to be barely a melody much less a good melody, Beethoven is able to craft this dramatic and deeply moving passage through harmony and rhythm." It's like Beethoven was challenging himself (or proving to others) to write great music with an extremely simple melodic line. I hear much admiration and repsect in Berstein's voice as he describes Beethoven's 7th symphony.

@themusicprofessor 21 день назад

Yes, Bernstein admired it immensely.

@martijn1111 26 дней назад

In 1812 Rossini wrote an aria on one note in Ciro in Babilonia for a supporting role, because the singer was in tune on only one tone. Beethoven could have heard about it before december 1813, when his seventh was first played. Unfortunately i never could find it, so I suppose it was replaced. Bernstein was never big in Rossini I suppose.

@andreivulpescu503 26 дней назад

I find this a very interesting comment, I had no idea about this. I do know Beethoven had a thing for minimalist melodies (the trio from his first Symphony’s Scherzo comes to mind, as well as the scherzo from one of his middle period quartets that I can’t remember the number of). Nevertheless, given he was almost certainly jealous of Rossini’s melodic capabilities, this is a very intriguing possibility.

@thebones 26 дней назад

Beethoven doesn't need the approval of a second tier composer like Bernstein.

@roryreviewer6598 26 дней назад

One of my favorite Beethoven melodies is the slow movement theme of the Op. 127 string quartet.

@themusicprofessor 26 дней назад

Magnificent!

@EXISTENCE1891 27 дней назад

Beethoven's genius didn't need a melody. The absence of a traditional melody makes it a work of genius

@marcraider 27 дней назад

exactly!

@aaronaragon7838 27 дней назад

I've seen this video of Bernstein dismissing Ludwig as a melody maker. Bernstein is a musical giant, but wrong in his critique.

@Open2Reason 27 дней назад

If you listen to the actual movement, the part that Bernstein is “critiquing” is more like an accompaniment on top of which a true melody is born. The piece develops. This part is the setup for the development. It really is a very beautiful movement, and I believe Bernstein knew it.

@nicolasgabet7561 26 дней назад

Stravinsky said in a conference that the genius of Beethoven came from his struggle to compensate for his total lack of sense of melody.

@Open2Reason 26 дней назад

@@nicolasgabet7561 And yet it’s Beethoven’s melodies that remain among the most memorable - I’m thinking the 3rd and 4th piano concertos, the violin concerto, many of his piano sonatas, his string quartets, and the sublime melodies of his symphonies. I don’t think thy are complex melodies like we find among the more romantic composers, but they remain simple, exquisite and above all, memorable.

@FreakinOutOnAudio 27 дней назад

Few thoughts here: 1. It's a chordal/rhythmic musical idea. In a composition with development, especially, the materials can be just about anything. Tchaikovsky has a ton of these kinds of chordal/rhythmic ideas as well, and like Beethoven's they are as unforgettable as any "tune", but of course, these kinds of ideas lose their special identity when the harmonic component is taken away, while a single-note tune, made to stand alone, can sometimes retain it's identity. But there is no hard line separating the concepts. 2. Beethoven is a good contrapuntist, it's just his usual chunky style shows up here, so it's got his unique character. Definitely late Beethoven (like so many composers) gets the contrapuntal bug, but there are some fun contrapuntal moments in the earlier periods, even before he really sets his mind to renewing study later (as pointed out in the video, Beethoven's early student exercises and such don't show a particularly dedicated student, and he even brags about doing it all on instinct instead, but later on he realized the value of what people had been trying to teach him, and admitted he's got more study to do). 3. Mozart, and in his own words, studied hard (especially JS Bach) and worked himself to the bone to master and enrich his contrapuntal technique, and did so relatively later. These were revelatory studies for him, and the shift in his style and quality is massive. I'm just making the point that it doesn't come for free to anyone, even Mozart. 4. Beethoven certainly is a great melodist. His style is chunky most of the time, but he has his flowing moments. The important thing is that his materials are catchy as heck.

@jihanjoo 21 день назад

Also, I just wanted to say that it's perfectly "okay" to say Für Elise is a great melody, and to say the Ode to Joy theme is a great melody. In fact, I would personally rank them both as not just some of Beethoven's greatest melodies but some of THE gretest melodic materials that have been ever conceived by all humanity. If you hate them, it's because you have heard them too much, not necessarily because they are bad melodies. But weren't we all just completely hooked and mesmerized by them the very first time we heard them as a child (if you actually CAN remember that far back in your life, that is)? I remember it. I really loved both of them as a small child and was just completely fascinated. Even if I grew to distance myself from them because I "knew better," as I get older and older, I just keep coming back to them with new appreciation. They are infinitely memorable and hummable. Virtually every single person in the modern world can hum it. That's not nothing. Its appeal is absolutely universal. Their longevity and prevalance should be counted as evidence of their enduring greatness and immense strength. The fact that they are EVERYWHERE and so ubiquitous should not be counteed against them, it should be considered a crowning achievement that very few other artists have ever achieved. I see that people here (including our professor) are going out their way to NOT mention Für Elise and Symphony 9 maybe because they are too "obvious" or too "pedestrian" (I understand that Herr Beethoven himself might have agreed with this assessment!) but I think we definitely should acknowledge them as some the greatest, if not THE greatest, melodies that Beethoven has ever written and certainly the most impactful, even if Ludwig Beethoven himself might not have thought them to be most representative of his output. To me, it would be inconceivable to discuss Beethoven as a crafter of melody without discussing Für Elise and Ode to Joy.

@themusicprofessor 21 день назад

The next video on this channel will be about Beethoven 9. As for Für Elise: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-jblFQ1whX5s.htmlsi=V-uIXBHRagiVxCaE

@AIainMConnachie 23 дня назад

Watched that Bernstein thing a long time ago. He really enjoys engaging in hyperbole. I really enjoyed your critique. Thank you

@andysoul295 27 дней назад

Love your videos. Thank you

@luisalonso693 26 дней назад

You could react to glenn gould talking about how mozart was not a good composer in his later years. I think it's a very bold statement and a very controversial one. Great video!!

@themusicprofessor 26 дней назад

Brilliant idea. I find Gould's remarks about Mozart pretty unforgivable!

@Grondorn 23 дня назад

Glenn Ghoul

@cyberprimate 26 дней назад

Not the first time I hear an accomplished composer say Beethoven wasn't a great melodist. First time I heard it was from film composer Vladimir Cosma. I think by "…not a great…" Bernstein meant "not a virtuosic" melodist, harmonist… My teacher says a great fugue sounds simple even when it's complex behind the curtain. Beethoven's fugues rarely sound simple.

@michaelktori5178 26 дней назад

This passage from Beethoven 7th has fascinated me since I was a kid at the London Proms watching Sir Malcomb (Flash Harry) conducting.

@MichaelTLam 27 дней назад

Love the opus 110 fugue 🙏 First time encountering the sonata I didn't understand it at all Now it's one of my favourites

@stpd1957 27 дней назад

Really good post, thank you

@sciagurrato1831 26 дней назад

Bernstein, for all his self-proclaimed genius, will be remembered for his show music. I agree with the Music Professor about Bernstein’s “showing off” in front of select audiences such as MTT.

@ftumschk 27 дней назад

"The Music Prof. Breaks Down Bernstein on Beethoven 7" - Great video... I look forward to seeing parts 1-6 ;)

@robkeeleycomposer 20 дней назад

A magnificent and wide-ranging talk Matthew. I learned a huge amount.

@themusicprofessor 20 дней назад

Thank you Rob. Much appreciated

@galeem713 27 дней назад

I was asked if I could have a meal with any two people, who would they be? My reply was Beethoven and Michaelangelo.

@Tizohip 26 дней назад

Great video

@kyleethekelt 27 дней назад

Beethoven's work is filled with lovely melodies, as you demonstrated. The 2nd movement of string quartet op 127, the adagio, is achingly beautiful. `However, I get the feeling that Beethoven himself didn't regard melody so much as queen as a means to an end, and for me that's no bad thing.

@schubertuk 27 дней назад

Bernstein is clearly defining a melody as limited to the upper register - in that sense, the Allegretto has an apparently dull, almost poor melody. But as you astutely point out, the melody is in the inner voice movements in combination - which results in one of the most beguiling effects in the classical repertoire. Bernstein is both a genius and and, perhaps, allowing his own ego to dominate by trying to expose the magic of Beethoven by demonstrating how a piece can be great whilst appearing on the surface to be seriously flawed. To be fair to Bernstein he did do a TV exploration of Beethoven's Hammerklavier sonata (opus 106) in which he eulogised very passionately without any of this silly positioning - and no criticism of this fugue! Beethoven's fugues are sublime, going places Bach could never have dreamed of (no criticism of Bach intended!). Whilst I will happily accept views that Bach was the greater fugal writer (certainly in quantity, variety etc) - Beethoven's own efforts can stand side-by-side without embarrassment, not repeating Bach, but taking the next step. I believe Berlioz wrote his Symphony Fantastique in 1830, 6 years after the first performance of Beethoven's 9th - not within a year as you suggest - still a ground-breaking feat!

@themusicprofessor 26 дней назад

Excellent comment. I believe he began sketching ideas for it as early as 1827, when he fist saw Harriet Smithson as Ophelia.

@schubertuk 26 дней назад

@@themusicprofessor Wow! I think the apparent miracle of Berlioz's innovation is something I still need to explore more. I love his music and often feel we do not recognise his genius as highly as we should. I am also curious as to how or whether Berlioz's more guitar focussed style affected his musical conception (versus Beethoven & many contemporaries who would count their primary instrument a piano), including Berlioz's often eclectic choice of bass notes.

@themusicprofessor 26 дней назад

I agree that not being a pianist-composer meant that his harmonic choices were very individual. He is often criticised for this, but I think it enabled him to create unique and extraordinary harmony, unlike anyone else. He is an amazing composer. He seems to have seen himself as a successor to Beethoven, and in many ways he was, although his music is perhaps too idiosyncratic to be widely popular.

@myouatt5987 27 дней назад

Fantastic video, Prof ... I really enjoy these commentaries! ... Loved the discussion on the 'allegretto' nature - I'm sure Bernstein could have transmuted it into a Mahlerian version ... but then you mentioned Mahler later on! Nice one - was that Poulenc I spotted in the background?! Now there'd be a nice subject for a video! 😀😀 Cheers - many thanks.

@themusicprofessor 26 дней назад

Yes, his Mouvements Perpétuels

@adhdlama2403 27 дней назад

The point that it's an unremarkable melody is so incredibly reductive. I don't understand why Bernstein pretended not to understand contrapuntal melodies , that the inner melody and the outer melody play off one another? He plays it the "block" section, and emphazises the E for no reason other than it 's on the top and the melody is "supposed" to be on the top. No orchestra would play the first exposition of the theme like that. I am mystified by this argument from Bernstein.

@qwaqwa1960 27 дней назад

Tea on the piano? :-)

@federicoprice2687 26 дней назад

You should see the cakes and biscuits inside!

@lebannerfan65 27 дней назад

I have long wanted someone knowledgeable to break this down, and to engage with Bernstein's rather strong opinion.

@jonathanp935 27 дней назад

There is someone else that breaks this down too, look up "defending beethoven".

@saibhandari 26 дней назад

Woah!

@DenianArcoleo 27 дней назад

Rather frustrating video. Bernstein is clearly heading (from the beginning) towards the inescapable fact that, despite there being superior composers in every individual musical element, Beethoven's music is greater than the sum of its parts and (generally) greater than anyone else's.

@bozidarsicel3884 27 дней назад

Bernstein is showing off his charlatan's side.

@billbailey7193 22 дня назад

Beethoven Bach and Mozart are Champions League winning teams. There are many magnificent composers but those three are above everyone. And who is the best out of those three - it has to be Bach - all three have such identifiable styles, but Bach’s style is almost a completely separate type of music. No one composes in a style like Bach.

@bazingacurta2567 21 день назад

@@billbailey7193 There are at least five composers other than Bach and Beethoven that I rank above Mozart.

@michaelbell9134 24 дня назад

A further example of masterly orchestration, in the Andante from the Fifth Symphony. The movement is in Ab, with a recurring alternate passage in C major. The martial character of the C major section is pointed up by the use of trumpets (in C) and timpani in C/G. After the third and final appearance of the C major section the G timp simply disappears, and the trumpets lose their C major mode and confine themselves to the single home note, C. But both continue to be used, sparingly, for the purposes of discreet orchestral colour, and the effect is amazing.

@thewavingbear 27 дней назад

The King of Inevitability

@solitarymusician 24 дня назад

Personally, I usually go for lemon ginger tea at the piano. Very good commentary, especially on the cigarette 🚬...Slàinte! 🍵

@billczerno215 27 дней назад

I think it was Cherubini who told Berlioz : "All the same, one shouldln't write music like this! " after the 1st audition of Beethoven's 5 th in Paris ; and Berlioz replied : no need to worry, Maestro, music like this isn't going to be written any soon.

@cpklapper 23 дня назад

I like the fugue in Beethoven’s “Eroica”.

@themusicprofessor 23 дня назад

The symphony or the variations?

@cpklapper 22 дня назад

@@themusicprofessor the symphony

@Michaelhendersonnovelist1 24 дня назад

I’ve watched that video several times in the past because it’s fascinating to hear Bernstein criticize Beethoven regarding the basic components of composition, particularly given he had studied with the best. It illustrates that in art, there are the basic tools, and then there is the creation, which may require deviation or even tossing them aside. Picasso is a great example. He could paint and draw as well as any old master, but that’s not where he was going. In a way, criticizing Beethoven for his orchestration, etc., is like criticizing Picasso because he figures deviate from reality and from the “rules.” Certainly Beethoven knew and could follow the rules of orchestration, etc., but that wasn’t what he wanted to accomplish. And the proof is that he’s still played today. I submit that had Beethoven not existed, and a composer today wrote about anything Beethoven did after the third symphony, particularly the late sonatas and quartets, they would be revered as a great composer.

@lapanen007 26 дней назад

I wonder... If you'd play it even a bit faster than what did, you could imagine (once again.. were talking of beethoven here) a heartbeat in the left hand material

@gradwhan 27 дней назад

best fugue writer after js bach was Haydn in my view. the creation, the masses... full with amazing fugues

@user-mw6gw9ld2b 25 дней назад

Where Bernstein talks about (almost 'at' Beethoven and his music), you speak through his music. This is not only more meaningful, but more compassionate and more faithful. I was rather chomping at the bit the whole video (and as usual, loved it), waiting for what I thought would be the one piece that could shatter most all of what Bernstein was espousing: Beethoven's Eroica Variations. I think the fugue at the end is as good as any that JS Bach wrote. In fact, I think with Beethoven you can always go back to Bach (forgive the cliched pun).You pointed out as he progressed from masterpiece to masterpiece, that he intended to use B♭A C B♮(H) eventually. I look on these variations as Beethoven's own "Goldberg" variations. Melody, harmony, tone, color, fugue (even a canon thrown in for good measure!). There is, as you said, much humor in his music, and I think especially so in these variations. Even a sense of childish youthfulness - like a kid with his first guitar pounding out things for the sheer joy of loud, ebullient repetition. Lastly, in Beethoven's 7th, the allegretto is one of the most beautiful melodies - it is just almost never fully carried entirely by one voice. I liken it (once again) to Bach; it is very similar in its progression to the Chaconne for solo violin. I think you'd find no greater legitimacy for that movement than with this comparison. Thanks for your discussions.

@themusicprofessor 25 дней назад

Thank you for your comment!

@fabianwhs9891 23 дня назад

Bernstein is very much of a personality That is being showed off often when he speeks and many say in the music I heard people saying "hearing Bernstein" in the pieces he conducted But often, there is a lot of profoundness behind his statements and practices

@RechtmanDon 20 дней назад

When I demonstrate this, I do it as a "guess that tune" game. Before mentioning the composer, I play the first 11 notes of the melody, but without the rhythm, claiming that the rhythm is a giveaway! Then I play it with rhythm, and of course few if any recognize it. I then complete the melody, pointing out that few if any will ever go around humming this totally uninteresting tune. I then play the countermelody, noting it is almost as uninteresting. Beethoven couldn't write a beautiful melody to save his life; even the Ode was borrowed from a German folk song. So what' the big deal about Beethoven? He is the musical poet. A non-poet will say something like "time seems to go on forever, but suddenly seems to hardly exist at all;" the poet might create a unique combination of words, and instead say something like "an infinite instant--time." What Beethoven did was to combine his two melodies; I finish up playing them together, and immediately the magic, the poetic genius of Beethoven manifests itself.

@ccfliege 25 дней назад

Maximilian Schell played in a great WW2 movie with Klaus Kinski. Just a sidenote

@N-JKoordt 27 дней назад

Dog was brilliant in this one 👍

@Asturiano53 27 дней назад

What about Ode to Joy?

@federicoprice2687 26 дней назад

Well, it's very Schillering ...

@Asturiano53 26 дней назад

I meant the melody Beethoven composed for it.

@TheGloryofMusic 16 дней назад

Most of Beethoven's fugues are pastiches of Handel (Missa Solemnis, Diabelli Variations, etc.). But some are highly original. Adolph Bernhard Marx said of the fugue from the Opus 110 Sonata, "This is a Beethovenian fugue". And the fugue from the development section of the Opus 101 Sonata's finale is unique. Rosen remarked on how the subject is a musical joke. The suffix to the trill is broken off before resolving, leaving the listener hanging in mid-air.

@themusicprofessor 16 дней назад

Yes. A characteristically gruff joke.

@lawrencetaylor4101 27 дней назад

My radiology professor was Lindsay Rowe, and his books were the most widely sold among all professions, Chiropractors and Medical students combined. Whenever he discussed Pagets' Disease, he would talk about Beethoven. An abnormal growth of bone after adulthood. Often the first sympton is that the person complains that his hat is smaller. In Luigis case, his auditory canals laid down more bone, compressing and eventually crushing the VIIth nerve causing first his tinnitus and then his total deafness. I've seen one patient who wasn't diagnosed early and suffered from horrible articular pains. He must have been suffering the martyr...and he gifted us with his music. Many musicians have busts of Beethoven, are the facial features different with age? Lindsay was a meticulous researcher, I don't think he would have thrown that idea out haphazardly. BTW I think Leonard was suffering from a bad hair day. I lost a lot of respect for him when I saw this interview. He had done so much to install a love for classical music even in moi, a poor lad born with two left ears, who was told to only move my lips and not make a sound for my early musical career.

@galeem713 27 дней назад

The 7th was pretty good for a deaf guy. What’s Bernstein’s excuse?

@gerastiman 26 дней назад

The opening of the allegretto foregrounds the accompaniment of the (very lovely) melody that starts in bar 27 on violas & cellos, no? A little like the finale of the eroica. Making a feature of the accompaniment as a thing of interest in itself before revealing the melody that sits on it, not a unique idea (perhaps Haydn's Lark quartet opening, or full statement of ground bass in e.g. Dido's Lament), though Beethoven takes it a good deal further, giving it a quasi-melodic prominence through the whole movement. But it's a bit daft for Bernstein to pick on an accompaniment figure as an example of weak melodic invention...

@paulwl3159 24 дня назад

Surely Bernstein was just paying an oblique compliment to Beethoven’s amazing ability to create greatness out of apparently unpromising material? And writing fugues wasn’t really what the music of Beethoven’s time was about. But when he did turn to fugal writing later in life his results were extraordinary.

@themusicprofessor 24 дня назад

Yes, he was. This video isn't really disagreeing with Bernstein's central point - it's just an opportunity to go into the Beethoven topic a bit. Although fugues were at their peak in the late Baroque era it's interesting that all 3 of the great classical Viennese composers (Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven) enriched their compositional style by exploring fugal practice. Baron von Swieten was a key figure in all this - we owe him a debt of gratitude!

@climate42 24 дня назад

Calling beethoven an 18th century composer is pretty accurate. His taste was clearly viennese classical, which was not the fashion of even the slightly younger hummel. Expressive to be sure, but the expression is amplified by discipline that younger composers didn't seem to have the same interest in.

@waffleman- 27 дней назад

You should make a video about Bach

@themusicprofessor 26 дней назад

I have done.

@sybedijkstra1 26 дней назад

Melody: for example the opening Allegro of the 'Frühling' sonata (sonata nr. 5 for violin and piano), one of the most beautiful melodies I know. But otherwise I agree with the analysis that Beethoven coud work miracles with almost any thematic material.

@johnboyd9854 27 дней назад

Thank you for another fascinating video Professor! When you mentioned Beethoven’s influence on Schubert in the context of the 7th Symphony it made me think of my favorite Schubert piece, Gesang der Geister Uber den Wassern, D. 714. The rhythm, the lower register, the chromatically descending harmony, etc. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Nh2j7AUtXWQ.html

@themusicprofessor 26 дней назад

Absolutely right. An inspired response to Beethoven's Allegretto. It's a marvellous piece.

@coreylapinas1000 27 дней назад

By far the most interesting work he never finished was the Lieder on Hebrew Modes.

@themusicprofessor 26 дней назад

I will listen.

@coreylapinas1000 26 дней назад

@@themusicprofessor it's not available but the concept alone takes precedence.

@mcrumph 27 дней назад

I would like to suggest that next time, you mike your keyboard. It's fine if you're facing it & not talking, but if you're just twisting about & speaking, its level is quite low.

@themusicprofessor 27 дней назад

Yeah I agree to be honest

@rb4421rb 20 дней назад

Schubert was indeed obsessed with this long-short-short-long rhythm. He wrote a set of great variations on an original theme for piano four-hand D813 in which he plays a lot with this short rhythmic motif (not exactly present in the theme). ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-8YH6IQDzX5U.html . I don't know if Beethoven would have reinvented the fabric of music, had he lived any longer, but Schubert would certainly have changed it all (just listen to the harmonies of variation 7 at 11: 20 or of the Doppelgänger).

@Jasper_the_Cat 27 дней назад

Tom Jobim would like to have a word. Iykyk.

@dmytryk7887 27 дней назад

That occured to me as well. Not the best rendition but --> ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-PYdrhTL3VBk.htmlsi=j4QRQDMZSVjHUgb0

@jamesboswell9324 16 дней назад

Would you indulge me with a personal theory relating to that now famous concert when Beethoven premiered his 5th and 6th symphonies? A thought that came to me is how those two works somehow became the seeds to two main strands of future symphonic development. The programmatic, somewhat autobiographical and lyrical 6th, a signal for all-encompassing visions that lead to Berlioz and then Mahler, while the minimalist and more self-contained 5th signposts an alternative direction that foreshadows Sibelius. As someone who loves all these composers but knows next to nothing about musical theory, does that idea make any sense at all?

@themusicprofessor 16 дней назад

It does make sense. The 6th certainly points to Berlioz and further forward to Wagner's Tristan! The 5th: I can see Sibelius in both pieces actually. Stravinsky also comes to mind (his wonderful Symphony in C uses the Beethoven 5 rhythm).

@jamesboswell9324 16 дней назад

@@themusicprofessor Interesting. Thanks for replying.

@OmarTravelAdventures 27 дней назад

I never liked Bernstein's interpretation of Beethoven, and this clip helps explains why. Regarding fugues...I would like your opinion about the Missa Solemnis fugues.

@themusicprofessor 26 дней назад

I think they're wonderful. The final fugue at the end of the Gloria is almost superhuman (and the one at the Credo isn't bad either!) To be fair to Bernstein (who I admire very much) there are some fine recordings of Beethoven.

@martineyles 25 дней назад

How about the 6th symphony. I think this has some wonderful melodies and orchestration, yet it seems to eschew some things that he is praised for in some of his other symphonies. It shares trombones and piccolo with (and première date) with the 5th symphony, which embodies all the things he is usually praised for. They are very different, but together demonstrate Beethoven's genius, while including what Bernstein praised, is actually much greater and much broader.

@themusicprofessor 25 дней назад

Actually the contrast between symphonies 5 & 6 will come up a little bit in our next video! He wrote them in parallel and they were meant to represent opposite sides of his compositional personality: one fierce, concise, dramatic, developmental, the other lyrical, expansive, idyllic, melodic. I agree: the 6th is a delightful anomaly among his symphonies. A marvellous piece - all the more so because it's somewhat unusual (but he does excel at lyrical works: the Pastoral sonata, the Spring Sonata, the A major cello sonata, the 4th piano concerto, the Archduke trio, piano sonatas Op 90, 101, 110 etc.)

@omegaomtv 25 дней назад

All I can say is Beethoven's music, inspires, uplifts me, more then any other composer. He usually wins best composer from amateur listener votes.

@WestVillageCrank 27 дней назад

Then there's that crap melody from the 2nd movement of the "Emperor". That lousy tune with the leaping 7th. The one LB borrowed for "Somewhere" from WEST SIDE STORY.

@themusicprofessor 26 дней назад

I've never noticed that! You're right.

@WestVillageCrank 26 дней назад

@@themusicprofessor There is another crib, but LB would probably not make fun of the melodist. "Ohio", from WONDERFUL TOWN, is liberated from the andante of the Brahms 2nd piano concerto. And having pointed those things out, I admire LB as conductor, as composer, as teacher... but he could be be a tendentious imp, couldn't he?

@themusicprofessor 26 дней назад

I wouldn't be without him though!

@WestVillageCrank 26 дней назад

@@themusicprofessor We agree! I saw him conduct a couple times: THE DYBBUK, and a Sibelius 5th at Tanglewood. And I once spent an afternoon with Sid Ramin, Bernstein's lifelong friend and orchestrator of WEST SIDE STORY. Not quite close enough to LB, but we take what we can get.

@variationxx 6 дней назад

Since probably the late 19th century there has always been this desire by certain composers to knock Beethoven down a few notches. This either stems from massive ignorance or massive insecurity, or in the case of the video - drugs??? The only other composer near his level is Bach. Regarding melody - he was probably the greatest true instrumental melodist. The Ninth alone is a masterclass of melody. From the opening melody based on the primal 5ths to the invention of the never ending lyrical melody of the 3rd movement to the fact that he purposefully created, in the Ode to Joy, a melody so simple a child could play it, yet so profound that it has inspired people for 200 years, Beethoven shows that he bends the nature of melody to his will. I don’t know of any other composer that could distill so much power into a melody that only has 5 notes played stepwise. I know it’s sacrilege, but I revere his fugues more than Bach’s, and I LOVE Bach! Beethoven just did so much more with the concept. The Grosse Fuge alone is probably the single greatest piece ever written, but the variety and depth of his fugues are just beyond astonishing. When I studied music there was so much to be made about the mathematical underpinnings of Bach’s fugues, which is truly amazing, but I think Fugal writing really came into it’s zenith with the late works of Beethoven. And Bernstein never discussed rhythm, for which again Beethoven is at his greatest. Even Stravinsky was forced to acknowledge this. His rhythmic genius gives his music immense power - a power that was not even close to equaled until the 20th century. He was also a great harmonist, his focus being on the teleological nature of his work instead of just for color. I think Bernstein, talented though he was, shows himself to be a true idiot for putting this nonsense on video.

@themusicprofessor 5 дней назад

Interesting comment. I too am a huge fan of Beethoven's fugues. I think Bernstein is using hyperbole here to make a dramatic point. He loves Beethoven really!

@bozidarsicel3884 27 дней назад

Bernstein is simply making a caricatures of himself.

@Tolstoy111 27 дней назад

If you watch the entire talk it makes sense. It’s all rhetorical.

@kennethvenezia4400 18 дней назад

My cat is the greatest composer ever. No surprise, he's a Russian blu 😾

@bengt-erikfroberg9191 21 день назад

I must say I seriously think Bernstein is high in this video. Furthermore he divides melody, harmony and all the other component of music into discrete entities and not a combined whole. "It's not a good tune"??? It's a fucking genius piece, they had to repeat itwhen the symphony premiered. And this "He was STRUGGLING with this and that" - you know what? I hope he did, because man!, the things this guy did for music and music history development. No, Bernstein - not your best piece of pedagogical essays. It's even a little bit cringe actually.

@OmarTravelAdventures 27 дней назад

If the second movement of the Seventh Symphony is unremarkable, then I suppose it's a good thing that Beethoven wrote 36 other symphony movements (Pastoral had 5) . Perhaps the others will strike a chord with him.

@richardkastlemusic 20 дней назад

Thank you Professor. Bernstein hated Beethoven. I posted 2 videos on my RU-vid channel about his stunts as a conductor. In the 1980's he conducted all 9 of Beethoven's symphonies on TV. Bernstein added trumpets to the orchestra creating an ugly trumpet heavy sound. Then he did an interview where Shell asked him about Beethoven's ability to orchestrate. Bernstein said: IT'S BAD! HE HAS THE TRUMPETS STICKING OUT. THEY'RE DROWNING OUT EVERYONE ELCE. He was purposely making Beethoven sound bad and then lying about his ability to orchestrate. This is just one of the many stunts I identify in my videos.

@loicetienne7570 9 дней назад

Wasn't Beethoven a very innovative orchestrator for his time? I do not know enough about the history of the orchestra, but Beethoven was a pioneer I believe. My opinion is that Beethoven was a master of orchestration, playing with colors like no other, as if the orchestra were a single instrument. Apparently, there is an academic consensus about suitable criteria for judging an orchestration, but it seems to me that there are inappropriate for appreciating Beethoven.

@harryjones5260 27 дней назад

minimalist

@coreylapinas1000 27 дней назад

Wim Winters would have a heart attack if he heard your version.

@themusicprofessor 25 дней назад

Well let's hope he never hears it then!

@MichaelTLam 27 дней назад

Examples of great melodies: Sonata 7 mvt 3 Sonata 12 mvt 1 Sonata 18 mvt 3 Sonata 24 mvt 1

@themusicprofessor 26 дней назад

Thank you Michael.

@anteb.k.8396 27 дней назад

Basically he just agreed with Bernstein on every point, I agree xD

@anteb.k.8396 27 дней назад

Let's agree he's a total master of form, if you take just 4 bars there's not enough there, you need a full piece and a full story with Beethoven, maybe the most human composer of all

@fredrickroll06 18 дней назад

Beethoven was a better orchestrator than Schubert or Brahms - which is saying a very great deal! Like Mozart, his orchestration is very transparent. Bernstein doesn't mention the COUNTERPOINT to the main melody of the Adagietto - the counterpoint is the ACTUAL main melody - a wonderful, hyponotizing melody, one of the best!

@themusicprofessor 18 дней назад

Odd that he didn't mention the countermelody.

@basantibaksi6 22 дня назад

Reminds me of Glenn Gould's comments about Mozart. You need ego of a special, distorted, kind. to be essentially (at best) a second rate musician, passing derogatory comments about two of the titans of western classical music. Has anybody done this with/to JS Bach?

@themusicprofessor 22 дня назад

I have a feeling that Delius may have made critical remarks about Bach.

@fredhaight3088 14 дней назад

Why do do many music professors, when trying to illustrate a point, pound out the passage as poorly as possible? Are they musical pathologists, holding up a tendon with forceps, pronouncing that Beethoven had excellent tendons but his ligaments were a bit weak? One could pick 100 better examples for harmony, melody and counterpoint, but why isolate them? Can you find a better combination of counterpoint, tragedy, and harmony than the Fugue that opens his Op 131? ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-wXohruGlL3Y.html. This 7 movement quartet is possibly both the most emotionally differentiated and at the same time musically integrated piece that ever existed. The hilarious 5th movement suddenly, shifts on an octave, to what sounds like the "Kol Nidre." Then you look back, and hear the opening fugue, and the Finale as also being derived from it. Beethoven had been commissioned to compose a piece for a new Synagogue in Vienna, and was given a copy of the "Kol Nidre." The commission was not completed but you can hear it through this work. So add to melodist, humorist, harmonist, tragedian, tone-poet, epistemologist, and contrapuntist, one of the greatest human beings of all time (although you would never guess his from his cadaver.) Please spend the many hours with this quartet that it deserves and requires. It's a life-changer. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-MCtLbxNW2oI.html

@themusicprofessor 13 дней назад

I've just been writing about it. I didn't know about the Kol Nidre connection.

@ericastier1646 22 дня назад

That was interesting. I do agree with Bernstein although he is a bit bashing but not without redeeming Beethoven. Bernstein's talk is charismatic to listen to. I'd say it's true Beethoven was not good at writing melodies which you confuse with did not write melodies. You see a good melody contains some notes that will be like magic but in B. it's rhythm first, harmony second and melody conforms last to those things. You can never get a chopinesque melody magic with that recipe. The greatest insight on B. compositional process is early piano sonatas. They're purely form and quite often dreadful empty totally unworthy stuffing content but yet everything in the form is there and it suffices to satisfies many people (not me) like a column antique temple pillaged of its interior colors, statues, wood, oriental rugs, paint, essence to live only the bare structure and stone surface (or rather a temple that was never developed beyond foundations). It's hard to say it is bad because the structure feels solid. Then Beethoven fills that empty space with a lot of draft and wind (lots of notes) and thundering rhythm (Bernstein nails it with ": "how many times do we have to listen to this rhythm?" ) to make it sound full but there's really nothing there. As he grew older he started to develop good interiors and then the magic happens for most of the piece you demonstrated but the empty temple is still always his foundations. You can feel he never changed his form first process. In a way what i describe reflects Beethoven's life, imperative in forms with oppressed content. The Bernie comment that B could never write a good fugue applies to many composers who tried including Chopin, Brahms, Mendelsonn, Schumann and even Mozart none could write a stunning fugue. They sound half baked. Overall i agree with Bernstein while being aware he is pushing it to make his act more savory. That scene with Bernstein would be excellent acting if it were a movie but that's how artists are.

@themusicprofessor 22 дня назад

Interesting comment. But I don't agree about the content in Beethoven's early sonatas. The content is marvellous!

@ericastier1646 22 дня назад

@@themusicprofessor I am glad that we could exchange ideas. I see a difference between the early sonatas and his more mature sonatas. It's fluff and too many unimportant notes thundering and running nowhere fast on the keyboard like a draft of wind that slams the window at the cadence, but perfect form. Also i agree with Chopin's critic of B, he breaks golden voicing rules in way that makes his music choppy and placate chords in the middle of thin texture. I think B. best output is his strings chamber music and his symphonies the worst.

@themusicprofessor 22 дня назад

Richard Strauss would have agreed with you (and possibly Wagner too) that the quartets represent Beethoven's most refined and polyphonic work.

@ericastier1646 21 день назад

@@themusicprofessor I didn't know that. Very much so, yes his string quartets and all chamber music really. But i insist that you can pick some of his early piano sonatas that are pure academic garbage with nothing but movement and structure with no music in it.

@JohnWilmot1179 27 дней назад

The video is interesting and informative obviously but who cares about what Bernstein thought about Beethoven really…

@belindadrake5487 25 дней назад

BEETHOVEN IS GOD! 👊🏾✨🌟 Bernstein as brilliant as he is , JEALOUSY IS A CURSE. Lenny if you were still here; MASSIVE SMOKER HAS GIVEN YOU BRAIN FOG. ! Go listen to JOHN CAGE. DOES 4’33. I like you Music Professor!!! BEETHOVEN was classical /romantic period. Not like Mozart, who can be ‘twee’. ( l like MOZ, BUT) BEETHOVEN WAS THUNDER & LIGHTING!!!! If anyone can write while deaf, BEAT THAT!!!!! 💥

@dr7246 27 дней назад

Beethoven’s genius, in my opinion, was in development of materials, pushing musical forms, and creating drama. His most brilliant fugue and contrapuntal writing, imo, is the first movement of the op 131 quartet. And his best vocal writing is the Cavatina in the op 130 quartet!!

@themusicprofessor 26 дней назад

Both great pieces. I want to do a video about the cavatina.

@ssvemuri 24 дня назад

IMHO, the beauty of a theme (yes melody!) is as much a function of the effect it produces as the number of notes. LB is being childish in using technical metrics to deride some cool themes (all IMHO)

@themusicprofessor 24 дня назад

The effect is indeed extraordinary.

@lordwilksy 25 дней назад

It's benign, you can argue like this with anything... "could it be, yes it could"... "well wanna ya got?..just a bunch of camp kids doin' shit" .... see.

@bozidarsicel3884 27 дней назад

This is exactly why I have never was able to take Beenstein seriously, even I realy wanted to and try it very hard and sincerely. There was allways something snobbish and extravagantly about him. Generaly, I found him very overrated conductor anyways.

@josephbarbarie692 27 дней назад

Beethoven is not a good melodist. Ummm, has Bernstein ever heard the song "Adelaide?" Probably one of the all-time smash hits of the lieder category. Also -- first movement of the Sonata no. 4 in E-flat. That one could have been written by Rossini. There are even odd parallels (or anticipations?) of "Largo al Factotum" from "Barber of Seville."

@themusicprofessor 26 дней назад

You're absolutely right. I've long thought the wonderful finale of Op. 7 is very like Italian opera in places, and Rossini was a huge fan of Beethoven.

@jackmooradian2858 26 дней назад

Ok that pathetique movement was way too fast. I know it well, and I didn’t even recognize a melody when you played it.

@user-uj5yo8tx9c День назад

I listen to theses non sense narratives from Bernstein and try to match them with his words in his book “The joy of Music” where he invoques the presence of God in the music of the greatest of all times. Fortunately Beethoven is still alive and the entire world evokes his name with deep respect and admiration and Bernstein, well he is dead, he is no longer in this world.

@tagoldich 21 день назад

I think anyone attempting to critique Beethoven at his best is just making a fool of himself. Back, Mozart, Beethoven are beyond critique.

@joejoejoe532 13 дней назад

It’s mystifying to me that people repeatedly interpret Bernstein’s analysis as a negative critique of Beethoven. It’s like they completely forget the ending part where Bernstein’s culminating conclusion about Beethoven is that his music sounds like it was communicated to him by God. That’s pretty damn high statement of admiration. The thesis is pretty clear to me; Beethoven’s music is greater than the sum of its parts. Finally, no one is above critique: in fact we learn the most not by critiquing the average, but the extraordinary.

@tagoldich 6 дней назад

@@joejoejoe532 Yeah, I don't remember what I was thinking when I wrote that. I agree, of course, Bernstein was just having some fun calling attention to the extreme simplicity of the underlying motif of the 2nd movement of the 7th. What he was actually pointing out was one of Beethoven's super-powers; his ability to take something very simple and build it into something monumental.

@johnmac8084 27 дней назад

Probably best to leave politics out of it on music channel

@themusicprofessor 26 дней назад

Thanks for the advice but no. Everything is political including music. Beethoven was political, so were Mozart, so was Wagner, so was Bernstein (and so were Kurt Weil, Hans Eisler, Nina Simone, Bob Dylan, John Cage, Luigi Nono, John Adams, John Cage, Alan Bush etc. etc.) A tiny humorous reference to Trump isn't going to hurt anyone.

@davidcrook5511 26 дней назад

Beethoven a NOBODY? Never heard that one before.... Thought he was one of the three greatest composers ever...

@davidcrook5511 26 дней назад

Oh dear they'll be raking up that old chestnut by Weber next what he said about the crescendo at the end of the Vivace in the Seventh...

@themusicprofessor 26 дней назад

What did Weber say?

@davidcrook5511 26 дней назад

Weber said that Beethoven was ripe for the madhouse Because of that crescendo I got that information from a Halle Orchestra concert programme notes written by Michael Kennedy

@themusicprofessor 26 дней назад

Ah yes. That's right. I think it was an increasingly common judgment, during his lifetime, that Beethoven was insane.

@aachoocrony5754 19 дней назад

Beethoven's fugue from opus 102 last movement reaches an enlightenment that has never been achieved by any other composer through the same medium. His opus 133 is his fountain of creative youth and genius. The perpetual cacophany is likened to the unrelenting dissonance of a Stradivari creating that eternal sizzle. Be careful of criticizing this fugue. Beethoven's melodies are second to none. Certainly better than Verdi's. (Lol)

@themusicprofessor 19 дней назад

I agree that his late fugues are wonderful.

@dbass4973 21 день назад

Beethoven's choices are inevitable because everybody who came after him ripped him off. His innovations became cliches to the point that it's impossible to listen to his music objectively and/or without anachronistic judgements. The only other musician like this was of course Johann Sebastian Bach.