@@asherroodcreel640 Care to elaborate? Not asking in a "prove it" kind of way, rather I'm interested in the writing process, particularly in the context of video games!
I would even say it's easier to argue the statue isn't sitting on Archtree branches, but just on branches and wood. A pyre, to signify the woman and/or her baby are meant to be burned.
Why not a pyre made of archtree branches? Could be a double meaning that the mother and child need to be burnt for the world to continue on the way it is but eventually, like all things, this tree will wither and fade into darkness and linking the fire will only be possible so many times before this tree becomes ash
The first connection I made was that the statue is on top on the same kind of wood pyre like the lord vessel is placed. One could say the woman is a vessel for the child before it's born. If so, the child would be the fire of the vessel. We could overthink it and relate it to the witch of izolith that created the flame that gave birth to demons and that the pigmy used.
Explanation is heavily flawed. Mother of the player (Chosen One) is never depicted in the game, and there is no proof she is important or even remarkable like Virgin Mary. While player is some kind of Messianic figure (sacrifices himself for the world, just like Jesus) , his mother is simply not relevant.
The chosen undead was resurrected at the end if DS3 thru the soul of cinder at the literal end of times, so that variation of the prophecy did come true eventually which is kinda neat.
Another thing about the cut content you mention is that the person who pushes the Firelink statue aside to access the kiln is the blacksmith Andre. Andre of Astora.
I think you're correct about the statues representation, and also I think that we recreate the scene with Gwynevere. She's essentially the mother in the portrayal, with her size making us seem almost as her child. It makes the illusory truth of it even more scathing when you look at it that way
I've got to say, you've become my favorite and objectively best game lore youtuber ever. You don't just take the item descriptions and make vague theories about the lore that leave people more confused than before watching the video. You actually do your research and basically reverse-engineer how the devs crafted the lore of the game via its environment and artistic direction. This makes the lore much more tangible and logical. Thank you!
He lies about Christianity in key points. He says that early Christians had to "reconcile the fact that the Messiah was dead" with his coming again. Christ rose from the dead. He defeated death. That is the entire point of Christianity. That is why the first Christians were willing to be martyred and die. It wasn't fabricated later as Tarnished Archaeologist would have you believe. He is a malicious gnostic.
It always seemed more like the statues were referring to Velka, to me, since so much of the imagery leads to the painted world. I can see the chosen undead, although it's unusual that a prophecy about the chosen undead would have so much focus on a fictional woman, mother to a fictional child. With Mary, it's at least predicated on existing, defined characters. One could jump a few hoops to rationalize why images of motherhood would be a core image for undead, but I doubt it would be that deep in development. I'd sooner accept that they just wanted generic church icons and it had no purpose until late in development, if at all.
It's especially fun to analyze these things WITHOUT the context of later games. Remember, when Dark Souls came out, Miyazaki didn't intend for sequels. It was supposed to be its own self-contained story. For example, people who discuss which ending is better like to bring up how Linking the Fire is (supposedly) better because the story of the future games ostensibly depends on you, the player character, Linking the Fire - though this seems to insist that nobody else, such as Solaire, could have done so, it is much more annoying to me that the Dark Lord ending is not dismissed out of some more concrete argument but through, basically, pure convenience. The story would be simpler if you Linked the Fire ergo it is better to do so. Well, that's beside the point.
There's something really sad about the chosen undead child being depicted with sword in hand. Still swaddled yet already destined to fight and struggle
It is a little at odds with it's Christian influenced iconography as depicting someone holding a sword in Christian art is a reference to their means of martyrdom, execution by being beheaded with a sword. An example of this is the portraits of St. Paul which almost always depict him holding a sword.
It really fills me with dismay we’ll never get more answers about the primordial serpents. The serpent statues in Dark Souls 3 were the only mention of them as the story went on. Imo they were the most interesting characters in the Dark Souls franchise
Imo it's an allegory for Satan and Jesus. To each their own for which is which. Further explanation would only lessen the myth. You are the sheep, they are the shepherds. The origin is unnecessary.
two things: 1) i am obsessed with this channel it is amazing 2) you drastically overestimate my ability to understand what is right in front of my face - my mind was getting blown every step of the way! so excited for part 2
Yes and what is it with the absence of Ships in Elden Ring? You only see a couple and it's obvious they are a thing but there are no docks no ports or anything. Also the Rusty Anchor item description is so SUS.
@@misterio3678 Yeah, there are definitely important questions here, even on a basic metaphysical level. If "The Lands Between" are, indeed, between life and death (or planes of existence, generally), then what does "leaving" on a "ship" even imply, or look like?
The name Numen is almost certainly a reference to Numenor, a city inspired by Atlantis in the Tolkein mythos. Great seafarers and technologically advanced (like basically steampunk), ancestors of a lot of modern humans in "modern day" Middle Earth, etc. Would be one hell of a coincidence if the name Numen isn't a Tolkein reference.
I’ve always wondered why there were animals depicted at the altar in the undead parish and now in hindsight it seems so obvious 😂 Great work as always, TA!
I'm so glad you guys decided to touch the topic of dark souls! Although there have already been a lot of theorists who tried to decipher the trillogy, I feel like a lot of these theories are based more on speculation rather than facts, especially regarding the first game. I would love to see your take on the serpents!
I adore this channel. The parallels you draw between in-game and real-life architecture, iconography, and archeology is incredibly interesting. You really make learning about ancient civilisations so fascinating, something which I admire. Bravo, sir! Long may the sun shine!
Found this channel recently. Brother, no channel has captivated my attention like this before its effectively removed the brain rot 5 second attention span I developed from til tok. Your stuff is awesome dude. I hope you keep making it.
I've been obsessed with these games for close to a decade now and you still manage to consistently blow my mind. You spend as long as you want on that statue 👍
Even though I already know the mayority of this, I really appreciate these videos. Because when I replay these games nowadays I do it for the mechanics and character creation possibilities, and I just run through the levels all the time. So it's thanks to this content that I can still enjoy the narrative aspect of From's works. Thank you ❤
Love the backdoor teaser, love the small portions of humor, and the fact that you stick to your "Tarnished Archeologist" catchphrases. Oh yes and the talk about statues and stuff is cool too. Statues are great.
so happy you're doing dark souls lore now too!! the perspectives you put on things and the way you point out stuff that i've literally never noticed in hours and hours of playing these games blows my mind every single time. i really hope you do some stuff centred on ds3 in the future as well, i played it for the first time recently and thought the lore and design details were so magical and immersive (especially with the nods to the previous games and how the world had changed since their time)! i kept thinking of this channel the whole time i played it and as soon as i was done i went and scoured your channel to see if you had anything on it 😭i'm so normal about these games
20 plus minutes of this just doesn't seem like enough. Just as I'm settling in for a super deep dive of this stuff, I have to wait for the next video. Amazing stuff as always TA. I've literally binge watched all your videos in like a week.
Great vid! BTW, with dark souls remasteres you can spot many secrets along the chosen undead's path. My favourite one is how see little humanities sprouting out of the Great Tree. You can also track these humanity sprites all the way down to the Bed of Chaos
This channel is now by far my favorite fromsoft lore source on RU-vid. Together with the very few Redgrave videos on bloodborne, the agony of effort videos by charred thermos, hawkshaw plot against the gods and Sinclair lore.
I discovered this channel about a week ago and I just finished binge watching all of your videos. I’ve gotta say, focusing on environmental story telling and mixing in real world history and archaeology gives the stories of these games a whole new layer of depth and makes them all the more fascinating. I don’t think there is any channel putting more work into research than you, and it makes your videos so captivating. Keep up the good work, I can’t wait for the next video
Others have said it all, but it's really great the different perspective that this channel brings to lore discussion in general, in any game really. It just works real well with FromSofts games, because the consistency lends real credibility to actual archaeological interpretation.
Very interesting how the 'undead religion' reflects Nietzsche's idea of 'slave morality' serving a purpose to keep certain figures in power and values in favor. Of course, Nietzsche is all over Dark Souls (with it also being inspired by Berserk and all), but it's cool to be reminded of this once in a while. Another thing about Nietzsche that I noticed while watching this video: the two endings reflect the two clashing ideals in Nietzsche's narrative. The 'good' ending of linking the fire reflects the Judeo-Christian notion of 'godly salvation' (as well as being a 'slave morality' used to, as I stated earlier, keep certain ideals in power), whilst the rebellious 'bad' ending embraces the human, earthly notions of what Dark represents in DS, bringing about an age of 'stained humanity'. This second ideal aligns with Nietzsche's ideal of embracing the earthly human body instead of transcendental notions, whether of afterlife or of the purity of the soul. The linking of fire ending also serves to preserve the 'status quo' of known 'welfare' , whereas the age of dark brings about a scary and unknown future, but one full of possibilites. This, again, reflects the dichotomy of clashing ideals in Nietzsche's narrative.
Let's not forget that in Elden Ring, the ending seen by most people as the canon ending has Ranni, a character who recites Nietzschean poetry, kill a prophet of God.
Well, color me impressed. You dismantled the entire Firstborn theory; bravo! I cannot wait to see more!( hope you do Oolacile someday) That said, I do have a few notes: 1. The other statues in the Parish are what confuses me; the women holding the staff torches. To me, they seem a clear cut depiction of the Fire Witches of Izalith, albeit in a different iconagraphic style than Izalith, in their aspect as goddesses of war(note the helmets). The only question I have is; if so, why are they here?! 2. I do not believe Frampt is lying to us in any way for a simple reason; the existence of what is called a "Lord Of Cinder". "So I will'd myself Lord, to link the fire, to paint a new vision. What is thine intent?" A Lord Of Cinder is capable of reshaping the world; as a matter of fact, that is their whole purpose. Every year of those thousand years between us and Gwyn was bought by him sustaining it that entire time. Same with us and the Bearer Of The Curse,and so on and so forth. In exchange for their seemingly endless pain and sustaining of reality, the Lords Of Cinder hold a tenure as the "God" of this world; the will behind the Flame. I actually have a wider theory in the making about it(including why the Black Knights appear where they do), but in short, Frampt is not lying. Nor is false Gwynevere, even. "A grave and arduous test of mettle, yea, it shall be." "Inherit the Fire of our world" We inherit the Fire; we become Lord Of Cinder for an age. For an age, we are " God"; for ages after that, every person worth mentioning in history tried to emulate us, follow in our footsteps. We have proven mortals can become gods; the price is merely agony incarnate. Speaking of which, the Catacombs statue can be easily explained in this sense; considering what happened in Dark Souls 3, we know Lords Of Cinder can be summoned back to life at a dire enough occasion. In other words, the Undead may have believed our Chosen Undead would return at their darkest hour, summoned as a Lord Of Cinder, even after making the greatest sacrifice. For all we know, it may have even happened at some point!(my guess is between 2 and 3) 3. I really like your focus on New Londo in the end; nobody talks enough about the place. That said, I also believe people underestimate the importance of the Four Kings; it goes to the point I believe the prophecy was once notably different. Why? Well, for starters, the statues make no reference to pilgrimage, and the Undead Asylum is unlikely to be as old as the Shrine. The Shrine itself is directly linked to New Londo; a city of Undead. There's no need for much pilgrimage if your Shrine is an elevator away. "Lord Gwyn recognized the foresight of these four great leaders of New Londo, and granted them their ranks and the fragments of a great soul." The Four Kings were all Undead; now, remind me,how many statues with a baby holding a sword and a woman with a crown are there? Doesn't their sharing of the Shard remind you of the Farron Legion's way of thinking? Sharing the soul of a greater being amongst themselves? We all know what happened later, of course; still, a thousand years ago, it must've seemed like a foolproof plan. Loyal heirs to Gwyn,and a full city of Undead to pull from. Pity it all went to ### when they fell to Dark and Lloyd took the helm. "Talisman utilized by Allfather Lloyd's cleric knights to hunt down the Undead. Blocks Estus recovery within a limited area. In the outside world, the Undead are accursed creatures, and Lloyd's cleric knights are widely praised for their Undead hunts." As such, Frampt and Gwyndolin needed to..tweak a few things. Likely in the last few hundred years, since the emergence of the Abyss that consumed their former candidates.
Thank you so much for going back to Dark Souls, this game means a lot for me and the whole atmosphere and ambiance gives me an unique feeling that only few games did. Here for more!
Hawkshaw has a great series about DS lore, including the Way of White, coming to the same conclusions and then taking a few steps further. Nice video TA!
The Virgin Mary was worshipped so much because she also was the embodiment of some Roman/Greek deities, Juno being one of the most obvious ones, much of the Greek myths are also infused in this game too
I bit late here but one theme that strikes my is that of madness. Many early asylums were originally lazar houses and some of the ideology around the excluded lepers was transposed onto the “mad”. There were also panics caused by the supposition that madness is contagious. This supposed contagion seems to be made fact with the curse of the undead, and this curse also seems to have a leprous effect. It is further fitting that you begin your journey in an asylum. As a final note, though I’m unsure how this fits, I get a feeling of Goya’s Los caprichos and Los disparates from this game. At the least, these works did hit on the topic of madness. Wishing you well! Take care, your videos are always appreciated.
this didn't feel like it needed to be 25 minutes long but I like the main idea that the statues reflect the "religion of the Undead" which is to eventually produce the Chosen Undead
The video didn't even need to exist at all, because DS1 was never actually finished, it was not properly translated from Japanese, and the core identity had to be changed from Dark Ring to Dark Souls because of copyright issues.
I’m not sure common culture knew undead would be a thing till they literally became a thing. Barring hidden lore that they existed in the war or the dragons
I do not play any of the souls games. I haven’t tried, but I just feel like the game itself isn’t something I would enjoy doing lol. But, I adore the lore and world building. So I am very happy to have found this channel. Thank you for making these!
I love your videos man and I have always wondered about lordans early history and the more obscure ruins about the area. Aswell as the chosen undead themselves
The thing that always stuck out to me the most is how many other “chosen undead” took the pilgrimage to Lordran and either went hollow or gave up, became disillusioned with the prophecy or saw through it, either aided by Kaathe and becoming darkwraiths or otherwise. One of the largest souls you can find in the game is on a corpse right outside Gwyn’s arena, without an enemy anywhere immediately nearby to have killed this undead. They’re just sitting there, slumped over, in a relaxed position. I always took it as an undead just like us, who made it all this way, only to see what had become of Gwyn and realize what exactly “succeeding” him would mean for themselves, and sat down, slowly waiting to go hollow.
I've seen a lot of convincing theories regarding these statues and the significance of the iconography we see throughout Lordron and beyond. I like this one, even if it is not my preffered idea, as it does magnify the importance of the player and their role in the story in a way I hadn't considered before. The idea that there's not only myths and legends tied to the chosen undead and their journey, but perhaps an entire religion or cult based around these myths and legends makes a fair amount of sense.
Thou'rt a great scholar Edit: just finishing up the video and I am astonished. Let's have a round of applause for the TA team and get excited for part 2! Bell ON!!!
I love you guys, amazing work again and thanks so much for looking into this, the idea that the statue showed for some reason gwyns wife in one shot as the firstborns mother never sat well with me since she wasn't around otherwise
Great video. This would also explain why the Undead Parish has two churches, the old church where Andre resides and the new one that houses the Gargoyles - the former was used to worship Gwyn's son while he was still next in line to inherit the fire, and after his betrayal, the new one was built for the replacement faith of the Chosen Undead.
Loved the video and so awesome to see you doing OG Dark Souls. I’ve never seen this theory proposed and as usual, I’m sold. One thing that occurred to me towards the end of the video, is the lack of item description references to this prophesied messiah. References to the prophecy seem to me to be always sort of ‘old legends’ and are often inaccurate e.g. Oscar saying there’s only one bell. It just seems strange that even if the outside world was slightly isolated from the religion, that references don’t pop up to it throughout Lordran items. Also, it seems that the Way of White is the dominant religion outside of Lordran, rather than the prophecy. So are you thinking this is more of a Lordran exclusive religion with ‘whispers’ of it reaching Astora etc. hence the ‘legends’? If so, again it just seems strange for such a significant religion in Lordran not to have items like warriors of the faith weapons and armaments, or a ring associated with it. I think you’re right but just something that’s bugging me.
DS2 implies that countless kingdoms rise and fall on the same spot, and continue to do so after DS2. I think DS1 and DS3 are so distant in time that it makes sense that even what is supposed to be the same locations would no longer have any resemblance to one another. This is part of the reason why all the callbacks to DS1 feel out of place to me, though perhaps that can be explained by how the fading of the flame manipulates space and time to bring people and placed toward the fading flame. Fire brings disparity, past and future, near and far, and as the fire fades so too does that disparity, causing time and distance to lose meaning.
I understand that, I meant about the people who built the temples around it, the designs of the area itself and if his theoretical purposes of the original structures.
very fond of this approach to analysis. archaeology is a perfect fit for the interpretive storytelling of the souls series, which leaves so much open to speculation in the same way we look at the ancient world and it's remnants. i'd never considered the more subtle nods to christianity, only the glaringly obvious anor londo, the city of chruches lol great video, i look forward to more!
Congratulations, I just went through the Isle of the Alchemists in Lies of P and thought "This castle is of a way older stratam than the devices currently in place" I would love see experienced lore hunters tackle this.
Fuck yessss, one more for us hollows. You and your team are some of the greatest illuminators of these games' themes and iconography. I can't believe this community went so long without the likes of TA, cuz it feels like before all of your work, we were trying to put alien fossils together in some ways.
I posted this elsewhere but I wanted to post it here for your thoughts. Given that the path to the Kiln of the First Flame has its own sky, yet is connected to The World by a long white door in 1. That it is connected by a long dark hallway in Dark Souls 2 and that in Dark Souls 3 all 3 depictions in it heavily imply that The Kiln exists outside of time. It seems to exist in a realm of Abstracts and this leads to a theory of mine that Fire in Dark Souls represents Civilization and that Darkness represents Nature. That is why Humans have Dark Souls because we come from Nature and yet bound by Civilization (the Dark Sign being a ring of fire around dark) to become more than mindless beasts. Yet the fire harms us and warms us in equal measure and constantly parts of us lash out in rebellion towards it. Yet we perpetuate it because the Dark was/is terrifying because there is distinction between anything. It is a sleep like state where both dreams and nightmares but the latter half caused by the Fires encroachment upon it instead of acceptance of it. Yet the Dark is also gentle in that it is not intentionally cruel. It simply is. In the end The Fire Fades and Civilization will fall bringing about a Dark Age. Also as the Lord of Flame, the various leaders throughout history, are consumed by the very power they wield and enforce their will about them but all of them are keeping alive the civilization in its many forms first started by that one leader lost to history. They then choose successors or are overthrown and they too meet the same fate. In doing so they and their people perpetuate the cruelties of the fire and oppress others even dehumanizing them and yet they do so in fear of The Dark. In fear of not only Nature but Human Nature itself as many of the nightmarish things in The Dark originate from Humans. This not only echoes with the words of Darkseeker Kaathe at the end of the video but also ties into the Serpent imagery in Elden Ring that Hawkshaw noted in his video Elden Ring Snake Iceberg. Also this feeds into one more theory. That Gwyn and his entire family are Humans too. Humans that see themselves as gods and are seen as gods due to the power that they wield being descended from Gwyn who held the most powerful Lord Soul but Humans nonetheless. Following the pattern of relating in game phenomena to the real world reminds me of how in Early Classical Era of History Kings WERE Deified and then in the medieval era we had the Divine Right of Kings as they were bequeathed power by God/gods. Furthermore it is a common hypothesis that many deities were based off of real people from the morning of mankind that became deified via generations of ancestor worship. "My grandfather Schmidtyr was this tribes best smith and his weapons are used to this day! Even by your Uncle Kuril. In fact, he used one to kill a great beast that slew many of our kinsmen" "Your great great Grandfather Schmidt was so good at smithing it is said that he had the power to make his weapons everlasting which is why our greatest warrior Kuril only used them" "Our ancestor Smidt was related to the ancestor Kurl who was the greatest Warrior. It is said that Kurl left home one day with Smidts greatest sword to fight a great foe." "And lo did the God of Smithing and craftsmenship bestow upon the God of War Kurl a great weapon and said 'Now go my friend and slay Death itself' and they fight to this day. Which is why we bury our ever-resting ones for one day when Kurl defeats Death shall they rise awake once more."
I just want to point out that when people were speculating that the mother and child statue represented the birth of Gwyn's firstborn, Dark Souls 3 had obviously not been released yet. So we had no idea who the firstborn was, what he looked like, or what weapon he actually yielded. In hindsight the conclusion looks silly now, but 12 years ago, it was pretty convincing.
I'm thoroughly impressed with your content, sir. I just reloaded into Elden Ring over the Christmas holiday for the first time since the Colosseum update launched and I have already sunk myself deeper into the environment and its stellar storytelling with the eyes of an archeologically trained eagle. My very first realization not 2 minutes into the game: Who is Elleh? The church that Kale is at and we encounter Ranni in her Renna alias is clearly named after an important figure but has she been named elsewhere in the lore? Is this one of the older gods of the world or a notable member of the Golden Order? I'm stirring up a cauldron of ideas I have for what blanks these traces of information can help to fill, and being able to appreciate these games in their minutia like I am is entirely due to the profound insight you've helped to unlock. I can't wait to explore these insights of my own and those you continue to provide in these videos. Thank you for providing this delightful year's supply of content, I only wish you ever greater success moving into 2024.
This video's explanation of the mother-child statue removed the ground below all the fun theories about Solaire. But hearing an opposing point to all these decade-old theories is really exciting
I think it’s also interesting that you, the chosen undead, are fought by and made to suffer at the hands of the very people that are awaiting your arrival. Whatever plane of thought Miyazaki and his team operate on is wild. I’m so glad that he routinely invites us to be a part of the process.
Im not certain if christ was represented with a sword as a child, but he was regularly depicted with a sword as an adult, especially in reference to the second coming. Your videos are great! I spend most my time trying to get around and beat the game, i love people taking the time to pause and look around!
Great video i really loved it. Always belived that those statue where Gwynevere Or The Namless King But thid makes way more sense! I loved the part when you mentioned that some undead Belives that the chosens one will returns at the ends of times because it is exacly what happens in Dark Souls 3. Even Lord Gwynn in a way returns in the last moments of Souls of Cinder The fire calls he's most powerful follower to protect the flame! It would be really great see you do something on the catacombs or another Dark Souls locations Because they are gorgeus.
Awesome stuff TA, say I got this headcannon, that the whole darksign, age of fire, gwyns fear of dark, abyss. Where all a plot by the primordial serpants (enternal dragons anyone,) to destroy disparity and bring about the age of the arch trees again.
are you trying to imply that will be more elden ring archeology? don't tease me like that! it's the greatest series on youtube.... I'm also hyped to see you start a DS archeology as well, keep em all coming!!
