The Myth of the Council of Jamnia and the Origin of the Bible 

So nice to see someone that actually does their research and doesn't just repeat stuff. Amazing video.

I was taught about Jamnia in Bible College, and just accepted it. Thank you so much for presenting the evidence..as a good Biblicist I checked out the proof for Jamnia, and come up blank. Thanks for the Truth

Thank you for all your hard work, Dr. Brant Pitre. GOD Bless!

Wow! I´m imprresed, I thought that this concil did take place until now. Thanks so much for educate us Dr.

absolutely excellent! well done, Dr. Pitre. you touched on something at the very end of the video that was running through my mind during the whole thing; even if Jamnia took place, that fact that the council was overseen by Jews 30 years after the resurrection - i.e. Jews who denied Christ and His resurrection - would be grounds enough for *not* accepting their version of the O.T. cannon. That said, it's awfully hard to reject books that are quoted in the epistle of Jude and later quoted by the Babylonian Talmud, but accept a cannon by Jewish rabbis who despised what Christianity had become. It doesn't make any sense at all. The departure from the Septuagint was, in my opinion, one of the worst decisions of the Reformers.

Dr. Jack P. Lewis was my Hebrew Professor at Harding School of Theology. His seminal paper on Jamnia turned the tide against the "Jamnia Canon Council" idea. He was an amazing scholar with two earned doctorates. A very humble man as well.

thank you so much!! You are very clear. What a wonderful job. We Catholics must know how to give answers about our faith.

Awesome information!! When I became a Christian at age 20 I was very worried about submitting my entire self to what was taught in this Bible book. So I wanted to know WHERE DID IT COME FROM?? Who put it together and when?? How can I trust these folk?? .... I continue to be shocked that almost all of the Protestants that I have known have never asked these questions.

I'm more and more impressed with the expositions of Dr. Pitre.

Your lectures are very sound and backed up by evidences.You have helped me a lot in understanding our faith.May the lord continue to bless u brother..And may our lady's intercession be always there for u..I will remember you in my prayers..

I've noticed that a lot of things that modern biblical scholars believe, came from German Protestant liberal Scholars from the 19th century. I'm a little curious, has anyone else noticed that?

This is a great channel , one of my favorites, along with father Spyridon of the Orthodox Christianity also. I believe both versions of the Christian faith have much to offer the world! Keep up the good work. God bless you and your family.👉✝

Dr Pitre, You are a divine gift for many of us. I can't thank you enough for this and all your videos I have watched thus far. May God bless you abundantly.

God bless you Dr. Pitre and the marvelous work you do in teaching us. Thoroughly appreciate it.

Thank you for your excellent and scholarly approach to this thorny topic. I am edified to my amazement almost every time I get Catholic content from Dr. Brant Pitre and many others. Yet, Especially Dr. Brant Pitre. Thank you for allowing God's Word, the Holy Scripture, to be more clearly opened to all who have ears with which to hear and eyes with which to see.

Wow! So much to learn - so intriguing but fascinating, I couldn't get enough. Thanks Dr. Brant Pitre for imparting your knowledge about the holy books.

I can hear Dr. Pitre talking all day

Thank you for the clear explanation Dr Pitre. I am very thankful for your research and clarification.

You are so brilliant and a great teacher we are blessed to have you to allowing us to understand our Bible deeper.thank you Dr Brant

What an excellent video! Well done! Like I try telling my protestant family and friends... "It's all about authority, who has it?" The first time I heard about this so called council I remember thinking "why would I accept a old testament canon from the guys who put my savior to death?" Awesome beard by the way :-)

Excellent presentation, thanks!

Well done, Dr. Pitre.

I heard someone spouting this drivel about the Bible the other day. I may have to show her this video. Thank-you. Beautiful.

Tell a lie long enough and it beomes the truth..

The video series, The Chosen, does an excellent job showing the split between the two schools of Hilel and Shimmiah.

Thank you Dr. Pitre for sharing this information. I had heard of this council and that it could not have any authority to determine canonicity of Sacred Scripture but I had never before now heard the council itself is more of a mythical theory than reality.

Hello brother Your videos are really inspiring and true. Can I have the permission to use part of your videos in my channel with link to the original videos in the description box..

Very Good! I still would have liked some discussion of the certification process of the CORRECT Books of the Old Testament, the Compilation of the Septuagint being a good alternative explanation.

At 26:23 of the video, the real story is told, that IF a Council of Jamnia occurred in 90AD, and the OT canon was "supposedly" established then, how is it that this Jewish council had ANY influence on what goes into the canon of Scripture, seeing as how the Christian Church was already in existence for "60 YEARS"? Does anyone really think that in 90AD, that what the Jewish authorities had to say about Scripture was even listened to at all by the Christian Church? After all, the non-Christian Jews didn't even accept Jesus as the Messiah, so how can they be relied on for sorting out what is Truth? This shows, as Dr. Pitre said, that there had to be another body of people who determined what the OT canon was, and that came later by the Catholic Church.

Superb evidence of the MYTH of the council jamia. God Bless You Dr Pitre !

Dear Dr Pitre, As this year is,the year dedicated to St Joseph, I was wondering if you have books, DVDs. and CDs...so we can learn more about St Joseph

*catholic productions* Hi, can I take parts of this video? to translate it into Spanish

Very helpful indeed. Evidently the Essenes also had writings other than the Canon.

Thank you so much! I was just watching a debate with Tim Staples & James White and White was calling on Jamnia as proof. I knew there had to be more to it

Bravo, love it.

could you please do a video on how the cannon of the Tanakh

Very interesting. I enjoyed it. I agree - no council of Jamnia. However, I did read in F.F. Bruce's book The Canon of Scripture in a footnote in a section about "Discussions at Jamnia" that there are many references in the Mishna and later rabbinical compilations to the discussions of the sages in the vineyard of Jabneh' in the generation following AD 70. I would like to know about those many references. I know you did quote the Mishnah here. But are you aware of such references actually mentioning discussions at Jabneh?

So interesting!

Excellent!

"Rooted in the council of Jamnia, these books were not" - Yoda/Brant (24:51). :D

Great analysis, dr.Pitre! Now, what about the catholic apocryphal books?

I usually enjoy these videos by Dr. Brant Petrie. This one left me unsettled. Why? The corpus of the Scriptures in the Greek Septuagint was inclusive of the Deuterocanonical books and the Septuagint dates back to 247 BC during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus II. Jesus and the Apostles, quote from the books of the Septuagint or “The Book of Seventy” as it was known. The Early Church Fathers of the Patristic era quote from the Septuagint, including the so-called “hidden” books today known as the Apocrypha. Saint Augustine was a proponent of the Septuagint. In written correspondence he urged Saint Jerome not to abandon the Septuagint. Jerome did so because he mistakenly assumed the Jews had the older Scriptures. This is true of the prior-Masoretic text, which we do not have a copy of. (Proto-Masoretic). The Hebrew Scriptures that existed in the third century were most definitely an established corpus of writings accepted as holy writ. One needs to be aware that it was Jewish translators using an ancient Hebrew Text (proto-Masoretic or proto-Septuagint-that gave us the first Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. This Book of Seventy was a central Bible for the Hellenized Jews, as well as, for the Greek Gentiles from the third century BC to the first century AD. The subject of Jamnia is an out growth of how the Jews were forced to delineate the books or cannon of Judaism in light of two key factors- 1. The loss of the Temple and the priesthood meant that the religion had to redefine itself. 2. There was competition as the spread of Christianity-the Way-became greater and the threat perceived by the Jews caused a reaction. Later in history, not only were there Christian’s who accused the Jews of changing their own holy writings, this same accusation later surfaced from Islamic religious leaders who made the same claim that the Jews had altered their writings. Eventually, the Jewish canon was set in response to the Christian canon which was intact and based on earlier Hebrew Scriptures translated by Jewish scholars -not Greek or Gentile scholars. While Dr. Pitre did mention the Septuagint in this video, he did not touch upon its canon or it’s contents which describe what most of the Hellenized world read in Greek-both Jewish, and later, first century and later Christians. This is relevant irregardless of whether there was or was not a Jewish Council at Jamnia circa AD 90.

I guess my question now is : Who decided to remove books from the Scriptures and what was their reason for doing so?

Does anyone know where I can find a list of quotes from the early Church fathers showing that the canon of Scripture was not defined until 4th century?

Thank you, beautiful

This is one of the things I've been looking into lately. Between Josephus saying there are 22 books (which could just be a re-arrangement), Melito's list and the fact that the most ancient Christian cannons do not agree on which deuterocanonical books are scripture (neither do the apostolic fathers, it seems), I don't really see a place to accept them as scripture. I would love to receive a different perspective or resources.

But I read about the council of Jamnia in a 17th century book "the Catholic Controversy" by St Francis DeSales. However DeSales asserts that only the Catholic Church had any canonic say so.

Thank you.

Great video, great teacher.

The Church Fathers basing themselves on Apostolic Tradition all said that the Church received as Scripture those books that were regularly maintained by the priests in the Temple as Scripture. It was the Church that determined the canon of Scripture from the beginning. Everything else was reactionary. Christ said again and again "it is written..." His audience knew exactly the sort of material He was referring to. We get our canon from the Christ and His Apostles, who were all faithful Jews in the early first century. It is revisionist and reactionary to pretend the Catholic Church does not and always has had the authentic canon of OT and NT scripture.

Praise be to God

…but Ben Sira in the forward mentions the tri-part canon and does not include itself…

2nd Esdras also know as 4th Ezra 14:44, 204 Holy Spirit inspired scrolls were written in 40 days by Ezra and 5 other scribes. Where are they now? I know we have some but where are the rest? I'm neither catholic nor protestant nor any other denomination for that matter. I just want all the books. I'm not referring to the gnostic books either. Anyone know ???

Do you have any of your books 📚 on Spanish

Correction: Formation.

Who was that 19th century German Jewish scholar who proposed the Jamnia theory? OK, I found it, Heinrich GRAETZ. The English subtitles rendered it as "grates" and I knew that was wrong. Wikipedia, which is not authoritative mind you, says the year was 1871.

As per the New testament Jesus opened one of the SCROLL (ISAIAH) in the synagogue and read... right??? My question: can we find these scrolls and get the original version so future confusions can be avoided... I believe most religions have passed down the important scrolls through centuries... some i have seen in videos of stone engravings of the some scriptures or books... As much as I understand it's not as easy as i think... Is it possible to have these scrolls (all religion) to be preserved in a centralized area for research... with signed authorization (of each religion's submission to this centre) so future wars can be avoided?? ... like the fights for the ARC between many tribes and kings in the past...

If it didn’t happen at the so called council of Jammie, then when did the Hebrew Masoretic text drop the extra 7 books from the Septuagint?

My sources say that Protestants only reduced their OT to 39 books in the 19th century, but do not explain why.

Wikipedia: The theory of a council of Jamnia that finalized the canon, first proposed by Heinrich Graetz in 1871, was popular for much of the 20th century. However, it was increasingly questioned from the 1960s onward, and the theory has been largely discredited.

Do evangelicals believe in the council of jamnaia?

Holy Family Jesus Mary Joseph Bless them who dislikes this video. Amen!

In the formation of their scriptural canon, as well as in the development of synagogue worship services, legal tradition, religious calendar calculation and community political organization, post Temple Jewry acted with a consistent concern on differentiating themselves from the emerging Church. By the end of that process, it became possible to postulate a form of Christianity that emerged from Greek philosophies and Roman mystery cults rather that the Covenant of Moses. Even earlier than that, a Church too intent on differentiating itself from Judaism could endure a heresy in which the God of Moses was regarded as an imposter. Institutional amnesia must be a form of temporal mass hypnosis.

I have a question: Is the book "DIDAJE" Which was not include in the Catholic Bible an apocryphal book or it can be used for fornation? Thank you.

So given that Graetz popularized the Council of Jamnia and the myth of a defined collection of books, how is it that the Protestants adopted these books hundreds of years earlier?

So It wasn't until the medieval times that the Jews finally agreed on what would be there "cannon" ? Excellent information, thanks .

Even IF Jamnia happened, by 90 AD Jesus already gave the authority to the Apostles

Obviously they wouldn’t have debated the scripture issue if it had previously been officially determined.

But St Francis DeSales decried the Councel of Jamnia in his "Catholic Contravercy"

As far as I know, in the second and third century some Church writers (Origen, Methodius) gave a canon of the OT which excluded the Deuterocanonical books, on the basis of the Jewish Canon, though it seems that it excluded yet some books of the present Jewish Canon. St. Jerome did not consider either the Deuterocanonical Scripture on the basis of the Haebraica Veritas. Origen seems nevertheless to have quoted some Deuterocanonical writings as Scripture. St.Jerome actually knew the Book of Sirach in Hebrew, but he did not translate it. It seems therefore that the present "Jewish Canon" was already widespread at least in the IV Century. I do not mean by that that the Deuterocanonical are not inspired, only that there were doubts and even rejection towards their inspiration between several Church early writers on the basis of a supposed Jewish Canon, widespread among the Jews after their expulsion from Holy Land, even if the so called Synod of jamnia actually never took place.

I never found Ecclesiastes despairing, quite the contrary.

Believe on the Lord and trust Him . God be praised

Is josephus naming 2 less books because of summarizing the books of samuel and kings?

What about decision regarding gentiles acceptance ?

Did you ever hear the saying, “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”? If so, do you an alternate explanation for the fact that St. Jerome attested that the Jews did not consider the deuterocanonicals inspired already, in his lifetime?

Why are there four gospels only?

So where did they get Jamnia into this. Did he just pick a city name at random

What about the Jewish aspects of Catholicism? You began with comparing it to protestism which makes me wonder about your sources

Thank you very much , I was told that what the Jews done was toss out all writing not written in Hebrew at this Council held in 90 AD. explaining the different in Catholic and protestant Bible's.

At this point Dr. Pitre does not convince me of the 'Myth of Jamnia'. IMO Dr Pitre's explanation is just another theory. The Jamnia theory is at least clear cut, and I do not concede Dr. Petre's version. More study is needed. Cheers! From Canada.

For what reason do you leave out the Septuagint in your discussion of an authoritative Hebrew canon? If it's what Jesus and the disciples quoted from, that's more than authoritative enough for me.

Dr. Brant Pitre forgets that the Septuagint was translated about 200 BC. That canon has not changed, the texts are the same as what Jews and Protestants use now.

but there was a school of yamnia that existed in 90.

I dove into that question when I came back to the church and quickly found Jewish scholars that debunked the entire idea of Jamnia as being a real event. The thing I found most compelling when reading about it, is that the book of Maccabees is the single source for how a Jewish person is to celebrate Chanukah. Obviously Jews are celebrating Chanukah to this day, so if Maccabees is not legit, then how on earth are they learning about it and why would the continue to mark this feast?

Even if Jamnia happened, what of it? By AD 90 the Rabbis were stripped of all authority. See the parable of the wicked tenants.

Interesting how a myth(lie) becomes the way certain groups ie protestants pick and choose scriptures

Josephus made the number of books in the Old Testament 22 books, according to the number of letters in the Hebrew alphabet, by merging some books together. Because he considers the Hebrew language sacred and the number of its letters is also sacred.

22:02 We don't necessarily now that Sirach was in the original Septuagint or if it was added in later copies of it. And I believe that Catholics primarily use the Vulgate rather than the Seputagint. The Septuagint is used mostly by Orthodox denominations.

When and how was the Jewish canon established?

They are grasping at straws. Next they might claim the Council of the Sanhedrin at Jerusalem in 33AD. The questions of who has the authority are what led me back to the Church.

It's all well and good to deny that something happened. But, there's an old saying, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." Could someone please answer this question. If the Jews did not get together in Jamnia to decide on their canon, when did they get together to make this decision? It is common knowledge, I think, that by the time of St. Jerome, he first left the Deuterocanon out of his Vulgate, because he was following the example of the Jews. So, if not at Jamnia, when did the Jews decide to hold to the Hebrew canon and jettison the Aramaic/Greek books?

I am listening to your argument over the canon of the OT. Your basic premise is that there was no closed canon of the OT during the time of Jesus. You give examples from Matthew and Luke to justify your position. Between 3:00-3:30, your argument is that there was no definitive decision on which book comprise the Tanakh by the time of Jesus and that there were many writings "floating around" but nothing settled as yet. I am confused. From history, we know that the Jews were under various foreign rulerships from the time of Nebuchadnezzar when they were taken into captivity to Babylon. Later they returned to the land during the reign of the Medo-Persians. The Medo-Persians were conquered by Alexander the Great and the land of Israel fell under Hellenistic rule. In fact, the story of the Maccabean revolt occurred during the Hellenistic period before the Romans became the super power. During the Hellenistic rule, the Greeks "imposed" Greek language and culture in the lands they conquered. They introduced Gymnasiums were athletes competed totally nude. Greek cities were also built. A classic reference would be Mark 5:20 where the man of the tombs, after failing to go with Jesus in the boat, departed and proclaimed his testimony in the DECAPOLIS (Deca - Ten; Polis-City). So he went and proclaimed in ten cities which were Greek Cities built after the Greeks took control. During Greek rule, Greek became the De facto language in the Land. While there were still Hebrew speakers, there were many who could only speak Greek. Many Jews who had "immigrated" to Egypt also spoke Greek and were not conversant with the Hebrew Language. This said, a translation of the scripture was made during the time of the Greek Rule called the SEPTUAGINT to cater for the spiritual needs of these Jewish "Greek speakers" in Egypt and eventually in the land of Israel. This was a translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek intentionally made for the Greek speaking populace, both Jews and Greeks, who were not conversant with the Hebrew Language. If one looks at the composition of the books in the Septuagint, it was the same 24 books in the Hebrew Scriptures, the Tanakh. This was composed during the time of the Greeks and that was way before the birth of Jesus of Nazareth. MY QUESTION: How do you reconcile your view that there was no decisive authoritative books in place and that there were many Canons "floating" around during the time? How was the selection of the Books for the Septuagint translation determined if there were no decisive books in place for the Hebrew Bible?

Jews seem to use a lot of the same books as Catholics though. This is just my experience and from Jews that I know.

GOD BLESS pls who dislikes this video . AMEN!

Go to RU-vid and type in Dr. Fred Tarsitano, how we got the bible. Listen 2 all of the series

If anything Jamnia sounds exactly how the Gentile Catholic Church claims it’s Authority to create a Canon..

Read your invisible power.

The speaker failed to harmonize Jesus calling the Scripture "Torah, Prophets and Psalms (Writings)", and Josephus saying that the holy books of the Jews are 22, of 3 different categories, which agree with the Masoretic Text (MT), counting Ruth as an appendix of Judges, and Lamentation as an appendix of Jeremiah. 22 was the length of the Hebrew alphabet, so the collection was regarded as perfect and closed. It appears that Hebrew OT was compiled by Ezra, Nehemiah and the Great Sanhedrin they set up, finished by c. 350 BC. The Greek OT LXX formed during 200 BC - AD 200 added the Apocrypha, and the rabbis who got the original Bible in the temple out ot it before the destruction in AD70 debated about whether to keep all the books, at about AD 90 because of the age of the characters involved, and probably at the rabbinical school at Jamnia. The theory is not proven, but is plausible and likely close to reality.

15:21 And so conviction as a standard for identifying canonical books is purely subjective. Not everyone is equally convicted in all matters at all times when they do not have the Holy Spirit within.

The Old Testament is an 3500 year old written producing as the product of history and not any council as is the New Testament some 2000 yrs old. It's futile to argue with hundreds of generations of scholars and cultures that read this.