The New Fault Lines | Which Side Are They On? | Megan Basham 

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Well, I am a born again Baptist, conservative, persevering 50 years, not reformed but can love my calvinist brothers/sisters whom I expect to be with in the presence of our Lord; and to be very truthful, there are only 3 names on your list that I even recognize and they are each Biblical through and through. I learned early in my walk with the Lord that many writer-preachers didn't seem to be Biblical in all of the areas I consider non-negotiable so I am careful whose literature I read or listen to. Rather than wasting time listening to unfamiliar voices that may fill my mind with doubtful things, my desire and aim is to grow in my relationship with my Lord and Savior and trust His Spirit to guide me on the narrow road that is sometimes difficult but He Himself has said "strait is the gate and narrow the way that leads into life" so I will follow Him. Maranatha!

As a member of Gavin Ortlund's congregation and a personal friend, I can guarantee that he is not a progressive. I don't agree with everything that Gavin believes, climate change being one of those things, but until seeing this podcast and then listening to his podcast that you referenced, I had no idea about his thoughts on the matter. Seeing as he is my pastor and friend, the fact that I didn't know his stance on this says how little this impacts his leadership and sermons.

Having a different view on scientific matters such as climate change (even if you are wrong) does not make you a progressive, especially in the theological sense. Gavin Ortlund is firmly conservative on all the following "fault-line" issues: - male only elders - inerrancy of scripture - 5 solas - PSA - LGBTQ is sinful - abortion is evil I just can't for the life of me understand why you would slander a brother who does great work for the kingdom due to political differences that have very little to no overlap with biblical ethics.

I don’t think John Piper was ignorant about his stand on politics-he knows his influence and I think it was just a subtle way of pushing what he truly believes.

Just want to say that Gavin Ortlund isn't the progressive patsy you paint him as in this video. Even in the video he put out on climate change he included an emphasis on the sanctity of life and is firmly pro life which last I checked isn't popular among the left. You said yourself that neither Conservatism nor Progressivism is entirely sound, so don't assume that a persons view on one topic is defining of their entire political stance. I really don't see why you would want to caricature a fellow Christian without due diligence. His disagreement with your guest was over a comment that white supremacy should be rejected in the Church. How is that woke?

Please let Megan do more talking. I want to hear her. That’s why I tuned in.

Brother, JMac didn’t just change his mind. He was explicit in his explanation of why he was reopening GCC. He was not sure of the dangers of the virus, and was willing to give the experts the benefit of the doubt. And the moment he realized the lies about COVID numbers, he reopened. It’s no different than if your own doctor told you something about a sickness that you decided to take his advice on until you realized he was wrong about his prognosis. And he proved his stability when they came after him guns blazing. Think about it. Great video though! God bless!

Gavin Ortlund was straight up slandered in her book.

I only know Gavin from his RU-vid content and have been blessed by it. Your take on him came out of left field for me. I am very sensitive to progressive pastors and Gavin doesn't strike me as one. I just realized this video is from 2 years ago so maybe things have changed since then.

I find that Piper is one of the best voices when he’s right about something (God’s providence, suffering, joy in Christ, the glory of God, salvation) and he just has really big misses, especially when it comes to the culture and politics. He’s one I really believe you can chew on the meat and spit out the bones, and the meat will be really good. Many of these others have too many bones and rotten meat.

He is wrong about Gavin Ortlund, who is theologically orthodox and rarely talks about controversial political issues. It's seems this is focused on political orientation rather than biblical orthodoxy and practice.

Having listened to Gavin Ortlund for years, and most recently, his rebuttal against your accusations in your book, make me completely rethink the validity of any of the claims in your book at all. I think you need to go back to the drawing board. Your intentions and your methods of investigation are alarming.

My husband and I are in a church right now and we began going there because they didn’t require masks, or separate people by masked and unmasked or jabbed and not jabbed. Some of their theology we probably don’t exactly agree with, but it’s not issues that are big.

I’m not a Calvinist but I love both John McArthur and RC Sproul-love their preaching--

Naive is not the word I would use for piper. He knows exactly what he did.

I’m in about 20 minutes and every time I hear “cowardly” I get jarred with thinking of Rev 21:8: But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” God help us be courageous and faithful. 🙏🏼

I love Doug Wilson! He has actually really helped me in my homeschooling journey. Love RC Sproul too. We use his books in our homeschool!

I encountered Megan for the first time yesterday. Thank you for the interview. I would like to suggest that at the end of such a presentation you have a screenshot list of the people or items discussed and their ratings. I miss comments or do not understand the names because of hearing and the closed captioning often is inaccurate. John Patrick, a Canadien pediatrician 33 years ago said we are living in a very unusual time where Christianity is tolerated but by the middle of the 21st century culture and gov't would be hostile. He was right. Florists, cake decorators, photographers and wedding venues are prosecuted for not accommodating same sex marriages. Elderly people protesting or quietly handing out literature on public property at abortion clinics are charged with felonies instead of civil disobedience. FBI putting informants in the Catholic church to find out who attends Latin Mass to list them as potential domestic terrorists. The Treasury Dep't is keeping track of who is buying Bibles and religious books. Little Sisters of the Poor was prosecuted for not providing abortions or birth control for their employees. We are already there. It will become worse.

I originally said I wish you had included Mohler. But given the three Ps, I don’t feel he would have fit into any of those well. There would have needed to be a fourth category, but would have ruined the alliteration. “Opportunist”.

What a great interview - thanks both of y'all.

Thought this was spot on. JMac didn’t just change his mind, he got more information about the true danger of the virus and made an informed decision.

Wow! Great interview and discussion. Very helpful niw that her book has been published.

The "open war" analogy is spot on.

I think premillenialism can definitely lead Christians to not fight as hard in the culture war as they otherwise might, because they obviously figure it's a losing battle. But that's no excuse to refuse to take up arms - we are the salt of the Earth.

39:54 What’s the point of “great doctrine” if it’s not applicable to real life? A head full of knowledge and a mouth that speaks it is worthless without a body to exemplify and validate it. Cowardice is unbelief, pure & simple. Thank you for daring to be courageous followers of Jesus.

Thanks for this great video! I have really been struggling, but slowly beginning to understand John Piper and this helps. . I'm thankful to be able to go ahead

When it comes to your own (Piper) You definitely protect them by calling them naïve. Piper is not naïve he’s very aware he’s very thoughtful hence what he does says and thinks comes with purpose. I love your work I think you’re terrific both of you but please don’t protect your own.

I think you are right about the Kuyper's idea of spheres. Many pastors don't fully understand this principle. But I don't know that it the responsibility of pastors to be the experts at operating in all spheres. Pastors are primarily to operate in the church sphere, but with an understanding of Kuyper's sphere sovereignty. Just saying, I think someone like John Piper operates well within the church sphere and is a gifted preacher/teacher. However, I don't expect him to be an expert in politics, business, arts, media, law, etc. I guess I think this is an overemphasis on the pastor's role. John Maxwell is a great example. He was a pastor who became an expert in LEADERSHIP principles. But he realized that in bringing forth Biblical principles about leadership, but operating in the business sphere. He didn't operate in this sphere as a pastor, but as a Christian Leadership counselor in the business sphere

One thing to point out is that there are genuine pietists, like the Amish or Mennonites. So we want to be careful about calling people who act like pietists with regard to politics, but who isn't actually a pietist in the strict historical or theological sense. The Amish, for example, live VERY differently from these political pietists and political pietists would probably not want to live like the Amish.

I am 40 minutes through and I keep hearing Joel use the phrase, radical teo kingdoms, then call Mike Horton a persevering pietist, as though the two kingdoms doctrine is why he's a pietist. I really think Joel has a terrible misunderstanding of the doctrine of two kingdoms. Luther understood that doctrine very well and yet, he was deeply involved in both the church and state. I'm also aware that Joel doesn't like that distinction and instead calls it the kingdoms of light and dark, which again, misunderstands the doctrine.

I have noticed that Gavin Ortlund has some very left leaning views where I lean to the right, but in all my searching, he gives the fairest critique on catholicism that I can find. So many right leaning teachers that I love and trust straw man the RC church, which just isn’t right either. It’s very hard to find any pastors today that I agree with on everything.

This was a solid program. Thank You Very Much 🤓 🙃 🤭 🎬 😉 🙂 😎

At 43:00 the statement that MacArthur didn't sign was most probably the ECT (Evangelicals and Catholics Together) document in 1994.

Michael Horton’s “Christless Christianity” is a great book and was very eye-opening to me. I had no idea about his R2K while reading that book, though. Dr. Joe Boot takes him to task in his “The Mission of God.”

Those who push for “eliminating the need” of abortion (never gonna happen) are denying the power of God to redeem a terrible situation. I have seen God do wonders with what you would call a hopeless situation when those involved decide to trust that God can do so.

John Piper is not naive. He knows what he is saying and doing

Thanks for this amazing conversation. So valuable!!I will be sharing!!!

Wow, if Keller said that about abortion then he is very, very wrong. The Bible is clear on how to lower rates of abortion, live holy, abstain from sexual immorality, do not murder, etc.

I generally agree with the generalizations, and know specific qualifications don't necessarily undo the categories you put forward here- seems pretty clear and helpful. Would you say that some of the issue with the pietists that pietists have a libertarian political agenda combined with a conservative social structure, rather than a clear theonomic/theocratic paleoconservative vision for cultural application of household discipleship? John Piper, for instance, can say publicly women shouldn't serve in the military, but at the same time equivocated on Biden's murderous policies and Trump's pride- which is inconsistent, and leaves you politically castrated.

Pietism is actually a legitimate Christian response. It's different to cowardice (although cowardice may pose as pietism, in fairness). It's a strong belief that we are not of this world, and that martyrdom, etc, is the way.

You can't give someone a pass on being in error on biblical application and obedience because they are "confused" by politics or culture.

The actual discussion begins at 8:57 Also don’t forget that Piper was lightly defending CRT on his RU-vid channel. A good place for her to start reading on Horton’s outlook on the culture wars is his book Beyond the Culture Wars. Also his written debate with Douglas Wilson on this topic in a past issue of Wilson’s Credenda Agenda.

Joel, Megan Basham just appeared on the Andrew Klavan’s channel to sell her book! Klavan has a gay married son and supports gay marriage and homosexuality. Let follow the money and see who is willing to compromise Biblical truth for sales! Wow you can’t make this up. Does she have a chapter in her book on herself?! Still supports her?

I think that at the beginning of the Obama administration, many evangelicals were attracted to the idea that moral law could come be set aside for the purpose of getting along and everyone could be politically agreeable. As a Southern Baptist, many have been all to happy to live in Sodom and disdain anyone who says, we’re to happy living in Sodom, but we worship- being in agreement with each other.

Steve Lawson , perseverance !

I was anxious to watch this program considering the topic. I have really been enjoying Joel's preaching and teaching lately. I was pretty much in agreement with all of the 10 men. It is interesting though, because it does come from personal preference in some ways and also where you are theologically. But, the one thing I didn't agree with is the take on Michael Horton. I have read many of his books and he began writing at a very young age. He is very brilliant and has written much on what is wrong with the church in America. Having a Southern Baptist background and coming from an Armenian church (not realizing it as a new and baby Christian) I struggled a lot not understanding why what I was reading in the Bible was not lining up with what I would hear from teaching and preaching at church until God brought me deeper into theology and understanding of the Scriptures. And reading Michael Horton's books have really helped my husband and Irealize why we struggled so much. So much wrong and false teaching has come into the church and has affected the church in pretty much every denomination. I have been walking with the Lord for about 42 years now and it has been quite a journey seeking truth and right theology and being able to find a solid church. My husband and my family have moved often and sometimes we can't be in a church where we agree with everything, but we go to a church that is closest to what we agree with and that holds as close to truth as we can find..I would deeply encourage anyone to read any of his books and I am disappointed that he was not given a fair assessment. Otherwise a great program.

"Nobody knows what federal vision is . . ." True statement, thankfully. We'll let that dog sleep till the end of time.

Loved this conversation! Love Megan Basham and her work at The Daily Wire! Thank you so much for clarifying so much where many of these pastors/preachers/leaders fall I agree with you Ps Joel, it is indeed "All of Christ for all of life"!!

Megan needs a better webcam and mic.

This is my own, personal, meaningless take: 1.) Keller has shown enough alarming red flags to this point that I personally do not believe he is a Christian. 2.) Piper has some valuable insight, while not my favorite, and some “yellow flags”, I cannot make the leap to say he’s no good. Just be extra discerning with him. 3.) I’m not familiar with Ortlund. 4.) Voddie: one of the best 👍 5.) Chandler is almost, not quite, to the level of Keller. His basically open hatred of police officers, defense of BLM, and his “please forgive me for being white” trash is enough to say avoid him. 6.) I don’t think I’ve ever heard Horton preach or teach but I’m under the impression he’s good. 7.) Avoid Moore due to his CRT and social justice embracing. 8.) MacArthur: One of the best. 👍 9.) Sproul: One of the best. 👍 10.) Not a Doug Wilson fan, but not because of any wonky theology or concerns (though I would lovingly disagree on eschatology). I simply find his speaking style/sermons extremely hard to follow. In no specific order here are my top 10 contemporary favorites: -John MacArthur -Voddie Baucham -Paul Washer -Steve Lawson -Alistair Begg -Conrad Mbewe -Emilio Ramos -Sinclair Ferguson -Al Mohler -Joel Beeke Favorite non-living: -John Owen -John Flavel -JC Ryle -Martyn Lloyd Jones -Martin Luther -AW Tozer

I would LOVE to know Megan's view on Julie Roys' articles regarding John MacArthur. I know that's not the conversation today, but it's definitely like to know.

Around the 14:00 minute mark you state that the great commission is Jesus saying that we are to advance the kingdom into every sphere and realm of society…arts, entertainment, politics, medicine, etc. Can you provide chapter & verse(s) to support the christianizing of secular entities/agencies that the world has constructed? Can you provide biblical, scriptural text to support that the apostles did these very things you are proclaiming we as Christians are called to do?

Great conversation on a very important topic. I think it would be a pretty easy/slam dunk episode to do a similar one on national politicians as well in the same vein

Joel, how is this content helpful at all? Is this done out of love and a desire for unity in truth? What do you gain by putting down other ministers of the gospel? I don't agree with Tim Keller's political stances either but never heard him slander anyone, let alone another believer. You've lost a viewer with this video.

I honestly think it comes down to not being tossed about with every wind of doctrine and finding a good home church and sticking with it.

Man I'm so thankful that you mentioned that Keller is Kuyperian! The progressives and the persevering both are kuyperian indeed

This is good. Right away, we recognized our previous Pastor was pietist/tolerant of progressive and we left. We are at a church now where the pastor stands for truth and opposes falsehood. However, we would like a more strong stance theologically and doctrinally. He waffles between Calvinism and Arminianism and surprisingly, seems to believe some people are saved, that, to me, clearly are not. All this to say, finding a strong preaching of Truth and strong politically is hard. We would be at your church if we lived there. We are in Dartmouth, MA. Slim pickin...I want family oriented, strong politically and very strong theologically and doctrinally.

I think we need a 4th category for Chandler. How’s “people-pleaser”? Or perhaps “popularity-chaser”.

I’m intrigued to know more about why Doug Wilson was blacklisted? I’m a fairly new Christian and I love a lot of content on Canon+. I loved his daughters book Eve in Exile as well.

Joel, if you watched Essential Church, then you know that MacArthur was always of the "stay open" camp. But he wisely allowed for the weaker brothers in the 51 elders panel. That's leadership.

I heard Piper at a Ligonier Conf. in 2011 and had red flags.

Great commentary

Thank you both for the genuine commentary!

Question Pastor Joel, why do you think Ligonier promotes Michael Horton? And can you do a podcast on why Ligonier dropped Doug Wilson?

Firstly JMac was right about the American Revolution. The response made by the host here was weak and utilised passages from the Bible not comparable to the Revolution. Secondly, I've watched a lot of Gavin Ortlund and not heard him bring up race once. He's thoughtful and puts foreard his arguments and is orthdox on the core things. I certainty wouldn't put him in the progressive bracket. Maybe this host is misinformed and needs to learn more before making his judgements.

His categories are simplistic. Great Missionaries of the past would be labeled liberal because they contextualized the gospel using his categories. Discernment is necessary but these guys don't offer much.

Finally watched this one- great program!

Thanks for the interview. I love MacArthur.Piper, and Sproul but haven't they paved the way of a non resistance stance towards the State? Did they not marinate the church such that when COVID hit, we responded passively? We were taught to look at Romans 13 in a way that bowed to Caesar in all things.

Great tittle to create a sense of unity among the body. I pity to wives of these fellows who are always dogmatic, and seldom admitting they don't have all the answers.

Interesting you should say what you did about Johnny Mac in light of staying open during Covid.

The thing I dont like is that this judgment seems to be based too much on politically left vs right instead of biblical vs non biblical. Both left and right have both good and bad, and is not the standard by which we should judge things

John MacArthur does not believe that Christ is going to return rather soon. He believes as do many pre-millennials in what the scripture actually teaches. That is, that his coming is imminent, it can come at any moment, and nothing else has to be fulfilled in prophecy for it to happen. He could come in the next 60 seconds or he could come in the next 60 years. That is what John MacArthur believes and teaches.

Thanks for this episode. I was skeptical at first. I think there is (if you understand what I am saying) too much pointing of the "Wolf" rifle at people instead of doctrinal positions. We should put more focus (IMHO) on evaluating doctrinal positions and less focus on pointing "guns" and people. It's the idea of teaching people how to think rather than what to think. Having said that, this was a very even-handed presentation. Well done.

Revelation 2 & 3 outlines the issues Jesus commands we resolve in our fellowships. Anything not in those categories is nothing more than a debating society. So, the pulpit for sale is the sin of Balaam. The issue is what pulpits are for sale!

Thought the 3rd P would be Postmill.... lol 😆 love you brother

Just learning more about RT camp of Christians. Usually a turn off because some seem a bit pietists as you said. But this was a respectful critique from the inside. 💠💠

John Piper’s problem is more than culpable ignorance and culpable silence. It is also more than one or two terrible articles. Reference John Harris’s helpful video for all the ways JP’s theology and teaching are infused with critical theory assumptions over years. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-mNmRZCWsb4o.html

What are your thoughts on Rick Warren and Louie Giglio?

Did someone explain to Megan that she will now be judged with the same judgments she just handed out? Just asking.

Obviously many would disagree but I personally think it was a statement in itself in how weak the church had become already that at the point it happened John Piper became as high profile as he did. I think if you examine the point culturally that you will see the emasculation had already gotten a foothold and voices such as his were our supposed best to offer. By no means is any man perfect and I know we are all compromised in life. Sin and foolishness follow us all but if you are at a point where a John Piper is a dominant Christian force in your nation....you've got a problem.

Piper has always been the mad professor to me. He was the pastor of the church my aunt and uncle attended. Always thought he was very overrated. He has become ecumenical in his old age. He knows nothing about eschatology

I don’t think mrs basham did herself a favour coming on this podcast. It kinda undermines my respect for taking part in this discussion.

I think you need to reconsider Horton. He has a little more Progressivism in him sometimes than you noticed. His advocacy of Weber, his 2012 stance on gay marriage, his recent take on abortion, he has said some questionable things on race, though I can't find or remember.

Fantastic conversation, and so spot on!

It would be really helpful if you can put the time stamps for each pastor. 🙏🏻

I love Doug Wilson. I’m finding more and more I agree with him.

42:28-42:33 Maybe it was both men; I always thought that that was Norman Geisler who thought that ?? 42:57-43:08 I believe she might be referencing the “Evangelicals and Catholics Together” statement.

Moscow, Idaho is a civilization made up of sinners just like any other city or town in the world. Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world. He did not set out to fix Rome or any other civilization because they would all be destroyed . Instead He told us to set our minds on the things of heaven. Why? Because that's where Christ is.

So when you refer to application, does that means that a have to become political?

Found this video after watching another of Basham's interviews. This is not the way that Christians should be dealing with complex topics. It seems that evangelicalism has traded exegetical nuance and effort for simple propositional platitudes, turning them into some sort of orthodoxy litmus test. Generalizing the entire thought of fellow Christians into "Liberal" and "Conservative" buckets is, at the very least highly uncharitable. Worse yet, wielding these categories as trump-cards to discredit conversation without doing the appropriate scholarly legwork of actually engaging with, and forming, positive argumentation degenerates one from informed interlocuter to witch-hunting ideologue. This is not the way to preserve the sanctity of sound biblical doctrine. This video is truly a blight on Webbon's reputation.

Excellent program, many of my favorite Douglas Wilson is great in many ways. This is one of my newest favorite you tube programs

I’ve been on the inside of one of these big reformed charismatic “joy” ministries. (That should let you know which one) The people at the top are website orthodox but practical liberals.

This was really good. She could use a higher quality mic though or at least adjust the levels.

Someone needs to explain this to me, I know it will be stupid, but please, I will listen to any good explanation. How can people who know that the bible doesn’t allow women to take teaching authority in the church can be ok that a woman will help us sort out which teacher is most faithful to the word. Isn’t that even more authority, to be able to tell you that you’d better not listen to your pastor, than pastoring itself?

O wow! Labels R Us! Coming up.

Good show. But I do wish people in the media who know they will be hosting or guesting on a show would get a proper microphone. And, do at least a little acoustic treatment to whatever space they are in. It’s not that hard to put up a curtail or two. These interviews where one of the parties sounds like they are in the bathroom… it’s just annoying. And avoidable. :)

We need The Kingdom!

Where did you place Matt Chandler-pious-progressive-perseverance?

Wait, RC Sproul? Isn't he in glory right now?