Julian second Comment. I think Tony Williams reference to a "willy nilly" technique was to the fulcrum at the forefinger and thumb where the drummer relies on bounce. So i think you reversed his observation. Thanks for posting this important conversation. Some Commenters have said the fulcrum in the last two fingers is not new. But i think every generation of drummers should have this conversation. Cheers. Bill.
In Steve Gadd’s GADDIMENTS, I saw Steve clearly use it as, of course, Tony Williams. I have to say personally it is sooooo comfortable and it DOES let the stick vibration flow more freely and breath. Thank you for posting this video… more need to see it.
I learned from the Carl E. Gardner drum method to hold the stick between the thumb and the first joint of the middle finger. From that point it was easy to use the ring and little fingers and pretty much take the index finger out of it. After that, I didn't really have to hold the stick very firmly with any finger. The whole hand was at work, with the majority of the practice time playing pianissimo.
Great video thanks. I saw Tony Williams 1985 video about three years ago. He first mentioned this technique in response to the question how to play fast doubles. Every note he said had to be "intentional". That is he intended to play said notes with control and not rely on bounce. Later on in another video he said this was crucial playing fast doubles on the floor tom. For me i love this grip but have to play it with my palms facing down. But i find i change grips depending on what i feel. This grip for instance does not work for me on the classic jazz ride pattern where i use a lot of fingers. Such is the beauty of the diversity of our instrument. Cheers. Bill.
I started doing this too (unknowingly) when I was working on my technique. Actually one of my teachers always drew my attention to that gap between the index finger and the thumb as a mark that your hand is relaxed while playing. And my other teacher told me to play with my pinky tight on the stick for a little while so that there were no rebound. He told me to look closer at drummers like Anika Nilles and Shariq Ticker, Mike Mitchell, Larnell Lewis - basically pros. Their pinky is always (except for fast doubles) on the stick. Mine wasnt. When I lifted the stick my fingers always opened for whatever reason and he pointed that out. So I started doing this, and first - it really helped. I am a better drummer now). It helped to feel and to control the stick so much, and when the stick is about to fall out of my hand (we all know sometimes it just happens somehow) it really doesn't - the pinky keeps holding it real tight (although Id been a tight holder only for that little amount of time when working on that). And second - my fulcrum is sometimes on the middle finger but sometimes (or at the same time) is on the pinky! It is a pretty peculiar feeling.
Hi man! If you will research a little bit about jim chapin and old drumming grips, you are going to find out that holding from the pinky is actually older (strube , rudimental author from 19th century) So tony didn’t invent the wheel this time! Jim chapin, moeller’s student who was a known rudimental expert, talked about the three grips for matched grip: First finger folcrum, second finger folcrum and pinky grip.
Tony Williams was Alan Dawsons first student. Dawson and Williams dad were in Korean war together, and his dad convinced Alan to give young Tony lessons.
Honestly this is not a troll but there is nothing "new" here. Look in to the Steven's Grip and the Musser Grip for playing the keyboard percussion instruments with 2 or 3 mallets in one or both hands. Also with Jazz there is the Burton Grip. This gets involved with how the grips have evolved. You are right about control but to say Tony is only playing a closed grip with no bounce is just wrong. Watch him play. Fulcrum doesn't matter and playing with the longer "lever" he actually has more bounce. He is not playing with only a closed grip sans the open grip. There is a lot written on drum grip technique but they never mention the effect of the palm of the hand below the fingers and at the heel of the palm and how the palm can be manipulated. Find an advanced mallet technique book like "Method of Movement for Marimba" to get a better idea of what I'm getting at. BTW, these techniques were formalized as techniques well over 100 years ago predating Moeller.
I some how developed this technique naturally in my right hand, and after 7 years of playing electrical drums then switching to acoustic drums I was stunned by how much better my right hand control was, because it wasn't so dependent on rebound! Now I'm practicing this grip on left hand too, it's a certain for me. Also you can get some really powerful rimshots with this grip using the Moeller!
Marcus Gilmore seems to have his fulcrum between the middle and the ring finger. Most of the time his pinky seems to be kinda awkwardly wrapped off of the stick. Which works for him wonderfully tho. I started shifting from the index finger to my middle finger a couple of years ago, and noticed that even just focusing on the middle finger, the rest of the bottom fingers will follow. Now my fulcrum seems to be between the middle and the ring finger, with the pinky just resting and following along on the stick. I try to not think it as much anymore, considering some of the stuff are just more fluent when using the index finger and some are easier the other way. It grows on you naturally after going through the horrible phase of trying to figure out a new grip and tehnique.
Thanks Julian for this video! So interesting. I played for 10 years using tradicional grip until I decided to start using match grip. After a couple of years I realized that I was feeling much better with my left hand rather than with my right, but I couldn't understand why. Yeap, naturally, I was holding my stick with my second finger more than with my first and using a last two fingers kinda fulcrum when needed for power strokes or for playing rolls over the kit. Now after hearing your video, it all makes sense. So yeah, I just need now my right "strong hand" to learn the same thing lol
@eathg9 I've had the exact same problem for years! It reached the point that I even tried playing a left handed set up to compensate. That didn't work very well. If you ever have a moment, please lemme know what you've been able to do to strengthen your right hand.
In old concert footage I first observed Ringo rotating his fulcrum between front fulcrum, to middle, to back fingers depending on what he was doing. Sometimes having two different fulcrums going at the same time. That got me looking at a lot of other seasoned drummers who were mostly self taught and saw they were doing the same thing. My take away is that shifting fulcrums is natural and has solid biomechanical reasons. Everyone else was indoctrinated into the front fulcrum orthodoxy by formal percussion instructors.
That's not new man, former drummers used a lot, here in Brazil a lot of old samba drummers used it reaching huge 16th control and speed playing the Samba
Actually moving the fulcrum to the pinky and ring finger has been discussed for years and has been covered in Jim Chapin's video (released in '92) on the Moeller technique and Steve Smith's video on matched grip. Despite what Tony Williams says about not using rebound, the "ring and pinky" finger technique works very well with the Moeller technique which does indeed involve rebound. I've found the louder I play the more I move the fulcrum back in my hand because it allow a bigger stroke and there is less shock to my hand the farther back my fulcrum is. I do still use index finger fulcrum for quiet, more delicate playing, but for a majority of my playing I use middle finger, or middle finger and ring finger fulcrum. Like everything in drumming, explore it and see if it works for you instead of taking someone's else's word for it.
This was a pretty cool video. Interesting about the different fulcrum. I’m currently switching from index finger fulcrum to middle finger fulcrum. Working on using the back two fingers more to control the stick.
I think you're right on about that there is no hard and fast rule. People should definitely get used to shifting grip depending on what sounds they want to get. The Tony Williams approach definitely has its uses. One thing that is evident is that you can get a lot more power within a short distance using it. You can also twitch your entire wrist quickly clockwise with a firm grip with all fingers on the stick instead of a fulcrum at all for the strike (as if you were playing the backside of the bell of your ride cymbal). It's a really powerful and energy-saving method and actually can be faster. I find that the index and thumb is better for buzz rolls.
Check out the Modern drummer cover feature on cindy blackman. She said, "I use the Tony Technique. She explained it that the fulcrum rests on the first joint of the ring finger, and all the other figures are on the stick as well. That strange left hand grip, where Tony and Cindy are pointing the stick almost straight forward, is the opposite of how I was taught. Again it's a firm grip. But I have seen Tony using his fingers opening and closing on the ride cymbal. Tony utilizes bounce, but does not rely on it.
Thank you, very, very much! Beautiful. I love this new fulcrum grip, (in swing and even eights), after your video I only use that one!! (but over 300bpm I use the fulcrum between forefinger and thumb and exploit the rebound..😉)
Tony uses the “old” fulcrum for uptempos and singles - in this same clinic - watch the whole video - its on RU-vid - he didn’t use this technique for everything
Interestigly the fulcrum with the last two fingers is what is also used in Kendo whan handling the Shinai or bamboo sword. One more proof that Tony was the real Samurai of the drums 😉
Now that my thumb index finger wrist forearm are screwed I’ll start again on this technique I already can’t play congas etc anymore for years of horrible form trying to get a correct sound or slap essence is you don’t have to play through a drum or Willie nilly to get the sound of your desire thanks maybe I’ll save my shoulders and rotator cuff which are almost gone also control baby control next let’s also work on the face mugging 😃
Hey, check the drum cover of chop suey by Tarn softwhip, i think she also uses a similar grip especially her left hand. Let me know what you think. Great video btw
interesting ... but i think more important then technique is understand subdivision keeping time and understanding your roll in the band as a drummer ... a lot of drummers forget that drums most of the time is an accompaniment instrument for most of the time ,,, and their goal is to provide solid groove and time in form of a pulse for the other musician to relay on and play against . it would be nice of you to show some practice time of you using this grip.
What you say is true, folks should keep in mind the benefit of switching to this technique is going to be dependent on the musical context. This has huge benefits for modern musical trends because you can generate that punch and pop without overpowering; think of like the hip hop staccato sounds, everything has very short decay. The drums can reflect that sonic texture easily with this ring and pinky fulcrum technique, way more than the traditional Moeller fulcrum.
Trying to think if I have already been doing this accidently. Pet peeve though, when a drummer doesn't have his pinky on the stick. Gotta have the POWAH
CRAP!! I've been using that grip for some time now, thought I was on to something, just to find out others have already done this! Bummer. But it's a great technique, I get a awesome wood sounding ping when playing this way. Now stop sharing our secret!! jk
You do realize you are full of it, right?... in the video Tony say’s “But holding it with all the fingers” (8:28 - 1985 Clinic PART 2) in reference to the grip and the drum stick. He demonstrating a point earlier in the video showing the grip in concept, not actually how he plays. But go ahead, invent a whole new tortured way to hold the stick and hurt your self while playing, just don’t put it out there as if you know what you’re talking about.
He says this in the clinic around the same point “the best drummers, played a different way, they played with the back part of the hand. They held the stick basically here (He then demonstrates the stick grip I am talking about in this video).” This is an exact quote from Tony Williams 1985 Clinic Part 2 of 3, right around 8:10. Feel free to disagree with this interpretation, but this is the way I interpret it, not just based on this interview, but having seen drummers play with this “fulcrum” of the back two fingers my whole life. Hope this helps you clarify why I made the video.
@@JulianArcher (1985 Pt 1 @ 1:50) Tony is playing doubles on the snare at around 192 bpm. His right hand seen with his thumb clearly on the stick while turning his right wrist for the doubles. I suggest you should prove your point, make a video demonstrating your theory. Show that you can play doubles in a similar fashion as Tony while not touching your thumb or index finger to the stick. Secondly, and now I'm just trying to help you...a stable, consistent contact of the thumb to the stick in both traditional and matched is fundamental to good technique.
@@xenprovence6126 lol I’m not saying you shouldn’t have your thumb and all fingers on the stick, you should have all fingers on the stick with either fulcrum. A fulcrum is the main point of contact, and where the movements originate. You can do either fulcrum with all fingers on the stick.
