Tony Williams: Control and clarity 

What do you mean?

Totally agree!

that's a great point and I agree 100%-it's quite clear that great drummers spent an insane amount of time patiently practicing the basics until they sounded good, before moving to complex stuff that made them unique. many of them even mention returning to basics in order to perform better. at a 1987 clinic in Austria, Tony Williams said "I don't practice anymore, but if I had time, I'd practice rudiments, singles and doubles".

Stork Legs lol

There's a much greater benefit playing something for hours at a time than playing for minutes over consecutive months.

@Stork Legs huh?!?

Stork Legs HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! HAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAH aaaaaa ahhhh HAHAHAHAHA thanks for this. Made my day

And me third?.. haha

There is still someone you can still learn from today and i think he learned a lot from Tony's technique, although he never talks about his idols: Virgil Donati.

@@laurentiuolivian1861 Agree 100%, Virgil is amazing drummer who plays for the song, has chops, discipline, and an understanding of working with other musicians.

@@marko1970 what a worthy final drummer to tour with Allan Holdsworth, he was surprised to be asked for the gig and he was already a huge fan of AH's music.

Miguel Merino and those with his discipline. Which is his most replicable quality.

Good point but just to clarify he didn't say he plays without bounce he said he doesn't rely on it. Different things

@@cerestablet9934 Different drums and cymbals at different angles, sizes, and tensions make relying on rebound near impossible. You are correct in your statement.

TW would not make that claim, no great player would; out of awareness & respect.

He was all about "soon." I know black people usually age very well but in this video here he looks young. What a great raw talent at such a young age with Miles. He was nice enough to explain his ways to a crowd but he might go over the heads of some. Some if not most of us hang on his every word.

what a tune!

I'll never forget the first time I heard "Fred" when I was a teen in the 90's.

Yes! The album Believe it and this song Fred are really game changer, not only for you! This soft gliding feel in the groove with so much swing and easiness, unbelievable. Chad Wackerman and Virgil Donati come very close to that quality in the groove!

randy brickson when you have that kind of massive understanding of what you do, it would be nothing but stream of consciousness to describe it.

Agreed. It’s best to temper what Tony says here with what he actually does in the video. That being said, after many years of pursuing a grip using mostly the thumb, first, and second fingers, I am beginning to see his point about gripping the stick with the last two fingers. If I may offer this observation… if you hold the sticks in an overhand matched position, explore striking a surface (holding the stick somewhat loosely) with minimal tension in your forearm, elbow, and shoulders. I try to make this the fundamental starting point these days with my grip, and it seems to be working. Also, would like to suggest this exercise… Get the application TEMPO for iPhone. Set the accelerando function to “bars” and begin with one strike to 1/4 note at 40bpm. Follow the ever increasing tempo with alternating strokes and watch how your grip changes to accommodate faster and faster tempo. By the time you get up to 200 BPM, you may notice that you have to hang on for dear life. This exercise clearly shows that any grip is never Constant.

great comment

It's interesting to consider that he may have actually physically been doing what you say, but mentally he was thinking about what he was doing in a fundamentally different way. He may have been visualizing his motions in a certain way that allowed him to get the control he wanted, even if it differed from what his hand was actually doing. These kinds of discrepancies are fun to think about when they happen :)

This is so true.....he is using bounce and a kind of Moeller with his left hand....the opposite of what he thinks he is doing....this common in sports also....feel versus real etc.....still my fav drummer.....but only when he was playing small drums and dark cymbals....this period for me is a bit of a chops fest....not really into it....

brilliant thread

Yeah I'm sure you have a better take on Tony's sticking then he does, get real

Yeeeaaaa I think you may be getting carried away a little bit there boss, but it was a good lesson nonetheless

The whole clinic is up on RU-vid.

Yes, and I don’t care for the change in direction. Hakim or Foster are more to my taste.

Listen to Art Blakey, Chick Webb, Philly Joe, and even Elvin J! They were "heavy handed" for jazz players! Rooted in the African approach which was certainly different than the "snap crackle pop" of Joe Morello and Buddy Rich. Tony Williams took those influences a step further into what we now call modern drumming. Ginger Baker did the same- just listen to Toad from Wheels of Fire. Besides, speed doesn't mean shit! Concept is everything- Tony had tons of it. He played loud for a reason.

Samsgarden is heavy-handed meant in a pejorative sense? Or did you just mean he adapted to a style (i.e., something positive)?

Matt Markus Non - pejorative

Samsgarden cool, I agree! :)

Its a basis for technique, not all of the time.

Agree with your statement although I'd add that for me at least, I'm constantly varying where or how I hold or position the stick (probably subconsciously) depending on what I'm doing at any particular moment when moving around the kit. Not sure Tony is saying "use this technique all the time".

Good observation/analogy. The 'L' word really should be stricken from Drumming. Many yrs ago a lesson dude was Teaching it. I walked out ,rolled the eyes and did a twelve stroke on the steering wheel . Its B.S. literally and Tony would most likely agree.

at the end of the day it's all singles and doubles baby. Flams are like italics vs normal font.

that's an awesome suggestion Charles, I'll try this out. I usually practice unisons with 2-3 limbs but rarely 4. The hand exercise you mention sounds similar (but not identical) to one suggested by Antonio Sanchez. Have you seen it?

I haven’t seen the AS version. I found out about the Tony Williams exercise from a friend who studied with John Riley in NYC, Riley studied with Tony. However, for a long time I didn’t know that Tony practiced the exercise as fast as he could. I didn’t know this until seeing the Mike Clark interview.

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Sroumdzu3c4.html

cool... I posted a few days ago a video on the AS exercise, thanks for reminding me of it! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-6vh9Hz7gXCM.html

Lock your hand with your forearm nad only use your fingers to move the stick

@@bernardtapie1092 Thanks!!

Nathan Walsh Not even close to Buddy Rich. Buddy had speed, precision, and a finesse that I don’t here here.

Buddy Rich is the most overrated drummer of all time. Dude was a clown stunt man personality who could shred. So what? Tony is a humbled, master who has explored the real depths of sound as a whole and human experience. He is a prophet. Rich was an asshole.

@@freelance_commie Agreed

U2WB ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-uFCJs_WvsG4.html sure about that? Same clinic. Check it out

U2WB hahahahaha TONY HÁS ALL AND MORE

I agree it's confusing, but the way I understand it is... Tony didn't like techniques that proposed *only* using fingers (with little wrist, like French grip) or *only* using the wrist (with little finger action) - I get that from 2:14. My impression is he thought the entire hand should be involved, controlling the stick at all times and keeping the mechanics as simple as possible.

I start to play with the grip he mention in the right hand, and the sensation is diffrent. when you have the grip point closer to the wrist, it takes less effort to the hand to lift the stick. its hard to explain, but try it! chris dave use the same grip

@@BeTheDrum You may well be right - maybe we just have to accept that there are some exceptional individuals who get to write their own rules when it comes to technique.

BlueHeat 550 You May find some more insight from rudimental/marching instructors like on Vic Firth.com.

@@blueheat5503 The natural talents are always the worst teachers, cause they just can't explain what they are doing as they just knew what to do by intuition. Same with Buddy, same with Vinnie. Just very philosophical thoughts from them, but no clear explanations like from Jojo Mayer.

I think while he held the sticks firmly, he still was not overly squeezing. That sort of tension would be difficult to execute smooth strokes as it would make all the muscles in the hand an arms tense, imo. I do not grip the stick in the front of the hand either, as he explained. I keep the thumb and index finger on the sides of the sticks, but I never curl the index finger underneath the stick. The middle finger is where my fulcrum sits. I am surprised he did not feel that he used rebound in his playing. I imagine he meant that he did not rely on bounce only to make his strokes. Playing “off” the drum head and not “through it” is essential to good form and freedom of movement. His playing was amazing and his technique was impeccable. I do understand what he meant by playing with a “wiggle” in the front of the hand. All my beginner students exhibit this method when they first begin to learn. They grip the stick with the thumb and index finger (curled under) only and leaving the rest of the fingers out of the equation. This is what I think Tony meant by playing Willi Nilly...

@@trevormcmanis I grip the stick as you do. I never looked at it as a "firm" grip, but the more I think about it, it actually is a firm grip. I agree with you on your opinion about his rebound. Explain the "wiggle" that you speak of please.

Jeff Porcaro Groove check out Todd Sucherman

Steve Smith Pathways of Motion addresses this.

@@pwdrums1956 agree, saw that but who teaches it? who uses this as a primary grip on Drumeo or other? nobody I know of!

@@Joesfosterdogs I could be wrong, but i think it would be considered another one of those grips that's an option. So you learn it and apply when needed. I believe I saw Dom Famularo demonstrate it on Drumeo. Apologies if wrong.

Found this. Watch from 18 minutes in. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-qKqhv8MhuL4.html

Jeff Cashio Mark Giuliani

GuilianA

It makes perfect sense. He's saying instead of letting the stick pivot between his thumb and index (or) middle finger and using rebound to play the strokes he is negating/controlling the rebound by holding the stick in his hand and using his whole hand to play each stroke. It means you're using one technique no matter whether you're playing fast, slow, loud or soft. No larger wrist action for louder strokes and no isolating the fingers for faster or softer strokes.... one whole identical hand motion for everything.

Think of it like a conga player or hand drummer. They work with very little bounce/rebound. So a good hand drummer needs to use the entire hand and all of the muscle groups in the forearm at all times, whether playing super soft or loud. Similar thing. Of course: Tony did use natural bounce and rebound - but in a measured, deliberate way.

@Adam and @greg -- totally agree, nicely stated!!!

@@adamimberti6948 that's what is usually referred to as wrist strokes

Who are some of the other musicians?

ColtraneTaylor I’d be surprised if you EVER get an answer .

rebuttal: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-nkJoTY0GE8M.html

Show us how with a video of your own.

Ok,poor kid

SMH. You listened to 15 seconds or whatever of a drummer playing and insinuate something about the drummer? Are you suggesting that Tony Williams didn't play with finesse????? Your comment is either pointless, or stupid. Both?

U2WB Sai fora, pobre coitado 👊🏻

What are you talking about man? This man was good enough to play in one of the greatest jazz groups ever at the age of 17, pretty much invented jazz rock fusion in the late 60s, was an acknowledged master of his instrument, and influenced countless drummers in the last 60 years. Who are you to talk smack about Tony? If you don’t know you betta’ ask somebody.