"Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day." - Gandalf.
Is it just me, or are The Nameless Things proof that Tolkien knew of and respected Lovecraft's work? Because they really seem like a Lovecraftian element in the Legendarium.
Ulf Lurken I think you might be reading a bit into it. The quote is pretty vague and sounds mysterious more than anything. Modern Cosmic horror isn’t specifically hinted at in that passage, only something dark. Of course their might be some influence, that can’t be disproven, but there doesn’t seem to be enough evidence to claim that there was. Anyways, even if Tolkien was familiar with Lovecraft, I don’t know if he would really incorporate its stylistic flares, it jus really doesn’t feel like a Tolkien thing to do. That may be our more Cthulhu focused culture seeping in.
Jackson Almodobar bruh EVERY writer back then knew who Lovecraft was and had heard or read his works lol Lovecraft and Conan were the two O.G.’s of Modern Fantasy Writing.
@@midshipman8654 Good point. Tolkien had to resist the urge to engage in the sort of proselytization that C.S. Lewis is noted for. Also, on reflection, Lovecraft would probably be too grim and nihilistic (perhaps even seeing it as Satanic in some way) for Tolkien's liking.
I always thought that to be one of the more creepy and haunting details in the Legendarium. Even Gandalf and perhaps the Balrog saw those creatures as awe-invoking and fearsome.
Soooo, Tolkien was about to write a story that would have partially deconstructed his work and that in some ways sounds like modern fantasy grim-dark, but he thought it was not worth doing? That's very, very interesting. I will remember it next time I argue with someone calling Tolkien simplistic.
You can also guide them to The Children of Húrin, which was one of the first Middle-earth tales Tolkien started to work on, but considerably darker and more morally ambigious than his more famous Middle-earth tales. It had main character incest, murder and suicide while G.R.R.Martin was still a twinkle in his mother's eye.
Don't give Hollywood any ideas. We'd probably end up with Gandalf teaching that the war against Sauron was pointless, and Rey showing up out of nowhere to fix everything.
@@baneofbanes They weren't the ones being referred to. They were the hard times, so to speak. The weak men were the ones who enabled their rise to power, because without the weakness of European "leaders" Hitler and his cronies could never have taken control of Germany, nor could they have successfully taken over (at first) and invaded (later) nations. If you want an example, look at Franz von Papen. His scheming allowed Hitler to rise to Chancellor, because he thought Hitler could be easily controlled. "In two months we'll have pushed Hitler so far into the corner that he'll squeal." Didn't quite work out that way, to say the least. Or France and England's decision not to stop Germany's march into the Rhineland (in violation of the Treaty of Versailles) in 1936. At that point Hitler had not finished building his military forces, and France alone could have easily crushed the few battalions Germany sent in. William L. Shirer wrote: "In March 1936 the two Western democracies, were given their last chance to halt, without the risk of a serious war, the rise of a militarized, aggressive, totalitarian Germany and, in fact - as we have seen Hitler admitting - bring the Nazi dictator and his regime tumbling down. They let the chance slip." There are plenty of other examples where weak men enabled the success of Hitler. I think it's a perfect example of the saying that Daniel McNeally posted above.
4:38, that is exactly how the second age ended as well, with all uniting against evil in one final battle, then the world falling into decay, before rising again for another great battle. The history of middle earth is repeating itself. Elrond himself said, "I have seen many defeats, and have witnessed many fruitless victories".
I'm going to be that one person that sticks out but I honestly would've liked "The New Shadow" to be written. I don't think it would diminish the Lord of the Rings ending if done properly. The corruption of Melkor would be ever-present in men and saying that Sauron was the last evil to defeat would be sort of ignorant. I do feel to make the new shadow feel more in line with the lord of the rings, lord of the rings ending would have been changed to at least hint at a new evil because I do understand that the lord of the rings end was very melancholy but sort of happy. Honestly, I do and don't want "The new shadow" to have been written is all i'm trying to say, lol.
I like many others would have loved J R R Tolkien to have finished "The New Shadow" but I agree that it would have taken away something "special" that I associate with LoTR. I suppose the Battle at the Black Gate, destroying the ring, freeing the Shire and sailing into the West all help tie up loose ends in a positive way leaving me with a positive outlook for the future. Maybe that is the escapism I don't want tarnished.
Right, because of Melkor's taint lesser evils would arise throughout all the ages of the land. It wouldn't have been as powerful as Sauron but neither was Sauron as powerful as Melkor.
Its good idea, A New Shadow, its a new story, but what we have now is some pages in History of Middle Earth and hypotysis. How about that, Tolkien son, Christopher Tolkien, or Grandson, Simon Tolkien, would restart this story, based by all we know about History of Arda, I would love that. How about you ?
I always have believed there are civilizations beyond rhun and harad... Would love to see them! Imagine a noldor who was tired of the war ran to the Eastern edge of the world where he came in contact with strange people that have long forgotten the valars and their own origin...
Numenorean colonies turned Kingdoms. The Wainriders and Balchoth were pushed west into Gondor by whom? Other Far Easterlings? Empires raised by the Blue Wizards? What lands tragically fell to Sauron? Did any resist and turn back his armies? What of the Avari Elves who did not go west? Did they ally with some men and war with others? Lots of material here
It’s funny how Tolkien was aware that men feel the need to construct new enemies in times of peace, because that’s exactly what’s been going on in the world for many years now since the end of world war 2.
The Greatest Hero Nah, ever since WW1 every war we’ve been in is because of that. The reason why the Vietnam war happened, and why there’re Soldiers in the Middle East. All because of WW1
Don't forget the cold war which in the nobody ended up winning since Russia & America still hate each other. The only way humans will stop killing their own is if space aliens show up to get purged instead.
Were still fighting Russians in Syria. While the Soviet state dissipated because of Gorbachevs incompetence the goal was to establish a state friendly to the U.S.A we failed since the current government is not in amiable terms with america.
It’s kinda like making films that take place after Return of the Jedi. The heroes have won and the enemy is defeated, but the ending is cheapened if the same enemy returns and everything that was fought for in the past is lost.
I like how the new evil cult was called the dark tree, perhaps paralleling the white tree of Gondor or the 2 trees of the dawn age. That in itself is a brilliant start to a new tale because it still draws on a mystical element of middle earth ... but in the end I’m glad it ended where it ended. A story becomes more meaningful sometimes when it finishes and has a place where we leave it. Don’t wanna stretch it out to much like butter over to much bread ;)
Disagree. Life is conflict. It never ends. And a new foe arising from men itself, and the blue wizards to the rescue. Against some sorcerer that has been promised by Melkor in the void to be immortal, ect. It would be fucking dope.
I agree, without the fantasy elements the story would be something we have already see elsewhere without the magic it will not compare to the previous tale.
History becomes legend. Legend becomes myth. Myth leads to curiosity. Curiosity leads to bad decisions. Bad decisions lead to the next great war... eventually.
@@aliyaser7698 Might be a bit of a schizo theory, but I have always believed "gods" in various cultures throughout the world, were in fact real people who did great feats (for better or worse) tens of thousands of years ago, and slowly changed from "extraordinary humans" to "divine beings" as the stories were passed down over the millennia to keep them awe-inspiring as humans collectively progressed.
@@DrewPicklesTheDark In Islam, the Lord says that these idols were good people who helped their people, and when these people died, they made statues for them, and Satan convinced people that these statues help people to draw closer to the Lord.
As much as I love Tolkien and his Legendarium, I'm happy with how it ended. It's such a wonderful tale as is. (Though, here's hoping Amazon's LoTR series will cover the Silmarillian some how).
The Amazon series won't cover The Silmarillion because the rights to it were never released. Only the rights to The Hobbit and LOTR were sold. Why is a LOTR series even necessary? It's a self-contained trilogy, and the story is finished. I believe when something is done as well as it possibly can be, as in Jackson's three films, it's "done". It needs to be left to posterity. I also have every reason to believe that, like every other film or TV show based on Nordic / European mythology and lore or set in the time of those events, that it will be used as a political tool. What does that mean? Look for "diversity" to come to Middle Earth in a whole lot of ways Tolkein would NEVER have imagined, along with politically charged plot lines involving things like feminism, racism, and every other "-ism" that's out there. This new and unnecessary LOTR series will have all the subtlety of a sledge hammer at a political protest. Count me out.
Actualy there was one last arcan artifact left, in the Lord of The Rings, Saruman when talking to Gandalf called himself Ring Maker and wore a magic ring of his own creation. No doubt its still on Saruman's corpse in the Shire. A pity no one reminded Tolkien for as Gandalf said to Frodo, even the lesser rings where dangerous in mortal hands. It would have made a great story hook.
This is actually the main story of a d&d lotr campaign I'm running. The companions will eventually make their way to Orthanc and find a magical instruments and ring prototypes.
@@Thorerx Considering that Saruman's greatest power was his voice I always thought it would amplify the bearers ability charm others or something like that.
@@Thorerx Well the Hobbits turned Grima into a pin cushion. The only reference is the book that Bilbo, Frodo & finally Sam where writing. Question who has access to this book?
@@davidmouser596 The Red Book of Periannath? I remembered reading that they are kept in The Shire's Library (which I think pretty much every hobbit has the access?)
Another great story that he didn’t finish was with the modern day father and son that were time traveling in their dreams and only thought they were dreams until they realized they were both dreaming the same thing which was middle earth. It sounded like an amazing story
The Elves were gone. The Hobbits seem to have had a golden age and then diminished. The Dwarves had one more golden age before their decline. There were few Ents remaining, and many of them seem to be going more tree-like; the Ent-Wives were probably destroyed long before. Gandalf and the other Wizards were gone. Durin's Bane was destroyed. The dragons were gone. The rings were destroyed or (in the case of the three Elven rings) rendered powerless and taken West. Even the Orcs were mostly crushed. With the Wizards, Elves, and Dwarves went most of the magic. Middle Earth as we know it pretty much ceased to exist at the end of the Third Age and the early years of the Fourth Age. In fact, the decline was already well under way during the Third Age; the powers both of good and evil were much weaker than in the Elder Days. In LOTR, Sauron, while very powerful, seems to be much weaker than in the War of the Last Alliance, and yet he nearly wins, for the Free Peoples are also divided and very weak compared to what they used to be. In the War of the Last Alliance, an army of men and elves is able to confront Sauron, defeat his armies, destroy his physical form, and take the Ring. The Elves and Men of LOTR seem to no longer be capable of even dreaming of that - they come near to defeat even though Sauron has no ring. Minas Tirith barely holds out against what can be presumed would only have been the first of many attacks if the Ring had remained hidden. And yet Sauron, even at the height of his powers, even in possession of the Ring, was but a servant of Morgoth, who himself was overthrown in the Elder Days. In a story of the Fourth Age, there would have been elements of Melkor's influence, but it would have been near-exclusively a tale of men, of corruption in men and the opposition to that and its eventual defeat. It might have been a very interesting story, but it would not have been a Middle Earth story. And because the evil arose in men and men would remain, it would leave one with the impression that it's only a matter of time until yet another evil arises in the hearts of men, so there wouldn't have been the same closure. LOTR, on the other hand, ends with the defeat of a great evil, the coronation of a good king, the beginning of a final golden age for the Dwarves and Hobbits, and a bright future. It's a bright future tinged with sadness, because the Elves are gone and the Dwarves and Hobbits will soon go into decline, but nevertheless one looks forward with hope. I think Tolkien did well to abandon the project and instead focus his attention on the Elder Days. There are a great many tales of the Elder Days that I wish he had completed and published an authoritative version. And the stories of the Elder Days are still Middle Earth - in fact, perhaps even more so than LOTR.
Depending on when the New Shadow, would take place, 100, 120 or 220 FA, the elves either were around or there is no direct evidence that they had left so early into the fourth age, although many left early in the fourth age. Before Elessar's death in 120 FA, where the story might take place, Arven states that no ship will take her west to Aragon, seemingly implying that the last ship in the havens has travelled west but this likely means that she has chosen the fate of men at that point and thus can't travel west. Additionally Legolas was also around still with enough elves to at least crew 1 ship into the west. A lot of elves had probably gone by that point though. As for other creatures. Smaug was not the last dragon, I believe Tolkien said they survived into later times, and Gandalf states that "there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough [to melt the Rings of Power]", indicating that there were lesser dragons around. The hobbits had only recently started a sort of a new golden age, with large landgrants by Elassar. We know they eventually declined in numbers and stature but it seems unlikely that their golden age would end so quickly and so near in time to the reign of Elessar, which protected their realm from the bigfolk. Additionally it should have taken a long time for the repopulation of Arnor and possible pressure on the hobbits by the bigfolk. Finally the brown wizard might still be around middle earth, tending to her nature, and the final departure of the blue wizards is not mentioned. Unlike the brown wizards their goal was hindering Sauron and with him gone they should have gone west if they stayed true to their cause, but Tolkien also discussed them swaying form their original cause, in which case they might stay in Middle Earth, perhaps ruling realms in the east. But yes, a story set in Middle Earth during the Fourth Age would have been a whole less magical. You can imagine many good human centric political stories without magic, but that feels less Tolkien. The myths he Tolkien drew form do naturally feel very Tolkien esque and could fit into the later ages of the dominion of men. Take for example the story of Sigurd, Fafnir and Reginn. It involved one dragon and mostly humans apart from the dwarf Reginn (and a few others if you include the origin of Fafnir). That could canonicly take place in the 4th age or later, with the dwarves and dragons mostly failed but still around. You could say the same about the story of Beowulf.
Yeah, there are still a few elves around for a while, but as a power they are done. In fact, by the time of the War of the Last Alliance, they're already a shadow of their former power, and by the time of the War of the Ring, while they still have a handful of strongholds, there will be no mighty hosts of elves marching to the great wars. The Battle of the Five Armies appears to have been the last great battle of an Elven army, and that was a footnote in comparison to the wars against Morgoth. There may have been a few dragons still around, but they seem to be less powerful than the early ones. There may be 2-3 wizards remaining, but the two main ones are gone, and the two Blue Wizards, if they do indeed remain, are gone into the east, and Radagast is not one to be a major driving force behind any great power for good or evil. Dwarves and hobbits may have had another good innings, and a story set during that time could be interesting, but it would have a strong hint of sadness for what is gone. You're right that dragons remained, and Shelob was apparently still on the loose, along with some lesser spiders and perhaps some other monsters. But a story of a dragon hunt against a lesser dragon or an attack on Shelob, after the tales of the War of the Ring, would seem like a mere mop-up operation.
Potato Skunk. Reading this conversation... I say that you are two different but obviously well read Tolkienites, I have no true arguments with either side...but I suppose that’s how/why the man wrote it as he did. It does feel open ended, sad, but open. Thank you for all who participated, my hat is off to you. Ps. Long live the shire! Pps. I don’t believe the entwives are gone and correct me if I’m wrong, Sams cousin states that he saw an Elm tree... walking... on the north mores. Ppps. I like to there is a younger blue and an old blue wizard. The young becomes too ambitious and the old able to fend off the young’s assailments both body and mind and save his “younger” fellow Maia. (I know bodily appearances don’t mean much to folk like them)
You are correct about what Sam's cousin thought he saw. No clear explanation is given of what it was, and obviously an ent-wife is a possible explanation, but a Huorn is more likely. Huorns appear to have been active in the Old Forest outside Buckland (Old Man Willow is likely one, for example, and there may have been others). However, there's good reason to think the ent-wives were destroyed by Sauron, and while Tolkein never stated anything definitively, he suggested that was the case. The ent-wives moved east, across the Anduin, into what later became the Brown Lands. There they tended gardens, but when Sauron arose, this whole area was laid waste. In one of his letters, Tolkein stated that "I think that in fact the Entwives have disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance." Tolkein did not shy away from tragedy, and there's good reason to think this was one more tragic incident. And somehow the ents had to disappear at some point in the ancient past to explain the fact that we no longer see them today.
Potato Skunk, 🥺. Makes sense. But I do hope one made it. Which I must also state, that Tolkien is no stranger to tragedies like you said, there are a mired of them set in stone in the lore and as an aspiring Tokienite I chose to think with this vague description and meaning that he leaves it up to the readers, and given the All these woes, I chose to think the time of the ents is rather in line with the hobbits. And this needs more clarification from two sources in the book. Gandalf states that “their is a power in the shire.” Is this referring to the Men of Westerness watching Over the shire? And in the Song of the Ent and ent-wife. On an entwives verse she sings as if they tend/influence to a town or group of “unknown people” and if there is a folk to tend and live with it (in my humble opinion) would be hobbits, Men are too temperamental, proud and fleeting, elves are to high and dwarves belong to the stone they were wrought from, and that leaves the little folk. I may be reading into more things then I should and want to believe the time of the ents is fading but not gone, please forgive my persistence for it comes from a place of love. 😔
"Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again." Gandalf says this just before his famous "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us" line. I don't think The New Shadow would have diminished The Lord of the Rings. Thank you for the overview on this! Interesting concept.
As intriguing as the themes in this story are, I think it's good that Tolkien stopped. He clearly saw that this didn't really fit in with the Lord of the Rings and I'm happy to have the ending that we have.
Well I think it would have been a great entry to Dagor Dagorath. But I would put the Rise of the New Shadow about somewhere after a thousand years after the Third Age. Maybe with them forming earlier but slowly gaining power and influence throughout the years.
I would love to read the book. It would be fun to see the world expand, and some fun dark age action in it. It would be cool seeing the external evil uprooted, but the internal evil growing.
*-Placeholder for the comment I will make after charging my phone-* Edit: I agree that it was a good decision to keep The New Shadow unfinished, it would make all the previous effort to defeat evil seem somewhat pointless. It would still be interesting, however, to see the transition between the Legendarium Timeline and our own Timeline, but I think it should 1) Be placed later in time, not so close to the final events of LotR 2) Be a more gradual transformation, with focus on the neutral aspects instead of the negative changes(and even these should be more gradual and natural, I mean, humans are flawed, Tolkien could show that without a Satanistic Cult inside Gondor) My personal idea for a possible continuation/connection with our own Timeline would involve the gradual dispersal of the Gondorian people and culture, maybe they were forced to move away from the white city after some centuries, each small group developing their own culture. Instead of a big new evil the people in the book would be challenged by the everyday events, further reinforcing what Gandalf said about the importance of small acts of good to fight evil. Of course, the story needs to be an interesting *story*, not a newspaper, but there are lots of ways to do that: migrations, some battles, the remnants of the magic in the world disappearing but leaving some trouble in their wake, the people forgetting their past and our beloved characters becoming like distant legends to them(sometimes thought not to be real but still a source of inspiration). Basically, the story could show how we got from the fictional time in the books to our own Timeline, but instead of highlighting how men have decayed and corrupted, it could show how these great deeds of the past inspired the "average joe" to be a better person overall. I think it would match the themes of the Legendarium, since the force of will and the good inclinations of the people were always considered more important than magic, and that's exactly what would be shown: even if the magic and the times of great heroes are fading away, we can still hold on and keep evil at bay. Any opinions on that? Hope I am not be too late for interesting discussions
Im not a big fan of tolkien, homever there can't be Light of Dark, there needs to balance, humans are neutral when born but can change overtime. In which means humans can also be evil
I understand that Tolkien expanded Middle-Earth beyond The Hobbit in order to give modern England some form of mythology, but it was for the best that Tolkien did not firmly connect the fantastical world of Middle-Earth with the modern Man.
Ahh u see why he never "finished" it. This work is done, jus not published, chris Tolkien said he had a hard time fitting it into the timeline of the story continuity but its 100s of years in the future. pick a date any date, but I'm glad somebody said the truth
the problem is that now evil is not embodied by one single entity, or a dark lord, but shared and nested inside everyone's hearts. Oddly, the greater the dark, the stronger the light opposing it, so, in an age when there is no great evil, good has become just as small and hard to find, but equally present nonetheless.
To be honest, I find it to be a good thing that Tolkien never finished "The New Shadow" as well. The way TLOTRs ended--- it was honestly just so perfect to the point when making a sequel would (imo at least) just taint it. But then again, it honestly would have been facinating to see too. I do strongly agree, however, that it is best left up to the readers own interpretations as to what "Arda-Marred" truly means as well!!! :)
I think the book, if finished, would have been a lot like C.S. Lewis's The Last Battle. That book had a lot of meaning and obvious symbolism but at the same time we had to see some of the series's greatest heroes turn from the side of good and focus on treachery, rather than the great triumphs of previous eras.
"'Well, what is to be done now? Clearly Saelon is in it. But is it clear? There was the sound of mockery in his words, and scorn of the ordered life of Men. He would not answer a straight question. The black clothes! And yet - why invite me to go with him? Not to convert old Borlas! Useless. Useless to try: no one would hope to win over a man who remembered the Evil of old, however far off. Useless if one succeeded: old Borlas is of no use any longer as a tool for any hand. Saelon might be trying to play the spy, seeking to find out what lies behind the whispers. Black might be a disguise, or an aid to stealth by night. But again, what could I do to help on any secret or dangerous errand? I should be better out of the way.' With that a cold thought touched Borlas's heart. Put out of the way - was that it? He was to be lured to some place where he could disappear, like the Shipmen? The invitation to go with Saelon had been given only after he had been startled into revealing that he knew of the whispers - had even heard the name. And he had declared his hostility. This thought decided Borlas, and he knew that he was resolved now to stand robed in black at the gate in the first dark of night. He was challenged, and he would accept. He smote his palm against the tree. 'I am not a dotard yet, Neldor,' he said; 'but death is not so far off that I shall lose many good years, if I lose the throw.' He straightened his back and lifted his head, and walked away up the path, slowly but steadily. The thought crossed his mind even as he stepped over the threshold: 'Perhaps I have been preserved so long for this purpose: that one should still live, hale in mind, who remembers what went before the Great Peace. Scent has a long memory. I think I could still smell the old Evil, and know it for what it is.' The door under the porch was open; but the house behind was darkling. There seemed none of the accustomed sounds of evening, only a soft silence, a dead silence. He entered, wondering a little. He called, but there was no answer. He halted in the narrow passage that ran through the house, and it seemed that he was wrapped in a blackness: not a glimmer of twilight of the world outside remained there. Suddenly he smelt it, or so it seemed, though it came as it were from within outwards to the sense: he smelt the old Evil and knew it for what it was."The New Shadow Truth be told this last fragment is chilling and what a cliffhanger it is, shame we'll never know what happened next :). Even Christopher Tolkien noted that: "Here, both in A and B, The New Shadow ends, and it will never be known what Borlas found in his dark and silent house, nor what part Saelon was playing and what his intentions were. There would be no tales worth the telling in the days of the King's Peace, my father said; and he disparaged the story that he had begun: 'I could have written a "thriller" about the plot and its discovery and overthrow - but it would be just that. Not worth doing.' It would nonetheless have been a very remarkable 'thriller', and one may well view its early abandonment with regret."
I would like the idea of the New Shadow. It would be like the Bible with the New World Order where the evil described would be similar to the horrors of the Pre Flood era with Antichrist rise to power and worshipped like a messiah and god with the assistance of Satan and Gog of Magog.
I think that the lord of the rings ended the way that did but there is always the question what happened after it’s like that with every story the ending comes but one always wants to know what happens to the mane characters after
Sam gets married. Has a bunch of kids. His wife dies. He leaves his kids grown. He gets to go away on a ship to be with Frodo and Gandalf because he, for a brief time, was a ringbearer. Merry and Pippin become the equivalent of rock stars and are elected to positions of power. They get tired of the shire and seek out adventure. They go to Rivendale. They find some book and bring it back to Minus Tirith where they die at 109 and 101 years of age... or something like that.
My thoughtsexactly. StarWars was wrapped up and self contained. Retrospectivly unpacking it to build out some more as compelling narrative was a failure.
Star Wars' OT was good on it's own and PT had revealed the answers to the questions asking what had caused events that had led up to OT, but OT itself didn't leave any plot points to be continued. It wasn't it being "past it's expiration date", it was how the folks working for Disney planned out the narrative, resulting in now a soulless finale and bad trilogy to the skywalker saga.
@@mikaele yeah.. and if they really wanted to give the fans answers, they should have at least used the original George Lucas' scripts, which are the canon story... Imagine if someone said they want to make a sequel for LoTR, but without even taking "The New Shadow" into consideration?? u_u
...”but the Hearts of Men who above all else desire power.. “ of course evil was not eradicated when Sauron was destroyed . It lived on even the men we consider “good”. A new chapter would add to but not diminish LOTR in my estimation
If the ultimate finished version of the New Shadow contained some of the old ancient mystical evils like barrow wights, the Ghosts in the Dead Marshes, or the Werewolves of Tol Sirion it could have been interesting.
could of gone a number of ways like the return of dragons in different colors and types and maybe vampire like creatures and introduce new races besides the three have the rise of the dark elves , lizard- men, dryads, nymphs, pixies, and other new creatures. maybe the wizards return with the elves to fight off the new evil of mighty demons and specters
If "The New Shadow" looked anything like Game of Thrones yeah it could have worked really well and not detracted from the LotR. It is well established in the Legendarium that men have weaknesses, so I don't see it as unreasonable if handled carefully that exploring that weakness in "The New Shadow" would be anything other than a great story. It could invoke feelings in the reader of wanting to go back to a simpler time when you had Sauron and good and evil was much clearer, the exact same trap that the characters are essentially falling into. Not necessarily a bad feeling in the reader to play with if you are a skilled writer like Tolkien.
It might tell the same story on a smaller scale though. Like, the morals and the messages would potentially be very near identical. I think this might be part of the reason why he didn't bother.
I believe he would have tied some if the "dark cults" brought about by the two Blue Wizards had brought about in the east of middle earth. Tolkien wrote in one of his only letters about Palando and Alantar that he would have liked to flush them put more. This could have been part of the new material. They never were said to have returned to Aman.
I would have instead liked to see the "Dagor Dagorath" tale fleshed out, fulfilling the Doom of Mandos, the final victory over Melkor, perhaps at the hand of Turin Turambar.
I've never understood why people are satisfied with LOTR never continuing. It's such a fascinating universe with heaps of untapped potential that will never be used because people are afraid of tarnishing the original stories. But it's not like the Hobbit or LOTR would ever be touched. Even if it's non-canon I would love to see more stories in the LOTR verse
If you ask me the rise of the New Shadow would have been great for the transition to Dagor Dagorath it would similar to the Bible with the transition to the Tribulation with the rise of New World Order and the Antichrist takes power.
I think LotR is a good ending to the larger collection of Middle-earth tales that Tolkien wrote. But I do dearly love the stories that happened *before* it, and I'l love to have even more of them.
There is a lot of fanfic based in Middle Earth. The problem is that no one can write a story set in ME as well as Tolkien could, so reading a new story with the background of his world feels hollow.
I can understand how and why the possible events of The New Shadow would have occurred. However, I am glad the cannon legendarium ended as it did. To me this would have felt more like a spinoff rather than a continuation.
I believe Professor Tolkien, being devoutly Christian, and always referring to history and culture, saw the subtle parallels between his epic and Scripture. To have continued the tales into the 4th Age would be like Christians needing more legends from the 2nd, 3rd etc centuries after the stories of the New Testament had been written down. This would have only served to complexify the simple message of generosity and kindness at the heart of Scripture, and seen as not needed. An epic, set in The Age Of Legend long ago has more power for the mind of the audience than a trailing line of histories that require scholars and libraries to keep track of, less the common reader.
Yeah and we pretty much can imagine what the Future could be like. Just with the prophecy of Dagor Dagorath alone. It's pretty much a foreshadowing for the things yet to be. Kinda like what the Bible tells us, it foreshadows the events yet to come. You know it's coming but you don't know when.
Personally, I would love to read a novel that shows what was going on in the Shire during the trilogy. Yeah, we get a basic idea during "The Scouring of the Shire", but it would be cool to see it unfold bit by bit; to watch as the carefree hobbits get pushed and pushed until they get their dander up. Plus the chapters in the Shire are my favorite parts, both at the beginning and the end.
All the tales from Middle-Earth were meant to take place in a distant past. Arda is really our Earth. Since we are here, it is impossible that the cult leaders would have triggered Dagor Dargorath, which is the end of the world.
Dagor Dagorath is when every being who has ever lived, from Bilbo to Fingolfin, comes back for one last fight. I don't think any mortal or cult could bring about Dagor Dagorath. Only Iluvitar
I wish you had written and published it, it would have been like Game of Thrones only written by a much more thoughtful and wise man. As for diminishing the triumph over evil in Lord of the Rings, such is the nature of Good and Evil. Is Christ's story less compelling because the world is still Fallen? Personally oh, I find it exalts the struggle for good to triumph over evil, knowing ultimately that it is only a battle in an eternal War.
Now that would be a tale worth telling! These "cults" seek out magical sources that ultimately mark the return of Melkor. Eldarion should've been a central figure of the story of course... Which would culminate into Dagor Dagorath.
Melkor is supposed to return. There is a prophecy or some such that says he will. I would have liked to read that. The world is woven with chaos, according to the creation story told for Middle-Earth. They can't beat chaos. It will raise some evil again. It is woven into the very existence of the place...
Perhaps he could have made the New Shadow a few thousand years after the Lotr when most magical things have disappeared like place the rise of the New Shadow in the Fifth Age with the Dwarves gone and the stories of Morgoth, Sauron, and the evil beings gone, the New Shadow could be a group of Morgoth worshippers who waited for thousands of years after Sauron's defeat to make their move and they gain quick influence over the kingdoms of Men promising them power in return of worshipping Morgoth since the majority of the world would have forgotten Morgoth and most of his evil works by then and the Kingdoms of Men may start seeing Morgoth as a good thing.
Honestly from my perspective without Magic or those fantastical elements, all you could have done is write a medieval fiction with the further advances of humanity and their wars and conflicts thereafter. while it could definitely be interesting it would be a new genre in the Tolkien's world but it wouldn't be fantasy. unless you could bring back magic and some of those elements that were dying off at the end of Return of the King you would be better off writing new lore in the space's in-between the war of the ring and the second age
@ClandestineOstrich ultimately you need something to shake things up if you want a grand story. The only thing I could think of would be humanity finding a way to bring back magic into the world and the consequences that it would bring. Perhaps the sylvan elves would seek to use this newfound power to restore their kingdoms of old. Perhaps elves that had since traveled east yet live and seek to take control of Arda. Perhaps this magic would come with a price or that its discovery destabilizes the continent. Or the Dwarves having restored their kingdom begin expanding and humanity grows complacent and begins fighting with their old allies.
that was pretty amazing, it reminds me alot of Babylon 5 - one of the episodes where the legends of what happened in the great war against the darkness has been long gone. And man's corruption leads to very similar circumstances to what this particular book would have gone over Man becoming an enemy and a type of dark-lord himself. Love your vidoes man
Is it just me, or are The Nameless Things proof that Tolkien knew of and respected Lovecraft's work? Because they really seem like a Lovecraftian element in the Legendarium. Also, I agree that Tolkien was wise to not continue with the project. Mostly because he placed it too soon after the War if the Ring.
Such ideas are older than Lovecraft, he is just the most prolific writer of the genre. That said, I always loved their inclusion. It is the little things, the details that hint at something larger, something deeper, something older that makes Tolkien's writing stand out. What are the stone giants? The were wyrms? The nameless things? Ungolianth? Tom Bombadil?
He probably knew Lovecraft by name in the 1950s, probably not earlier. Tolkien was certainly influenced by rather "pulpy" adventure stories. For example, he references Henry Rider Haggard's "She." I also think that he must have known of Bertram Mitford's "The Sign of the Spider" - the similarities with Shelob are just too great.
Wanner bros. newest lineup of lotr films: Lord of the Rings 4: Part 1: Back to Middle Earth Lord of the Rings 4: Part 2: Sauron Returns! Lord of the Rings 5: Erabor Drift Lord of the Rings 6: Trouble in Valinor Lord of the Rings Presents: The Holiday Special Lord of the Rings 7: The Search for Manwe Lord of the Rings 8: Brandybuck Boogaloo Lord of the Rin9s: Requium LOTR: The NEW Animated Movie Lord of the Rings and Pippin (featuring Tom Bombadill from the Devil May Cry series) Lord of the Rings 10: Elrond in New York Lord of the Rings: 2077 And slated for a 2031 televised premier: The BBC Presents: Why Can't We Have Some Meats? A Documentary
They’ll make a sequel trilogy with a female Hobbit lead who meets up with an exiled Aragorn that’s killed off in the first act. Also Frodo Baggins is still alive but is like the new Gollum.
4:14 how could he be old enough to remember Sauron if it takes place 120 years after the coronation of Aragorn? Is he a Dunedain as well with long life or...
I feel some good antagonists for "The New Shadow" would've been Ungoliant or Morgoth (it was never specified wether or not they were actually killed or destroyed).
This was the same lesson learned from the LOTR Trilogy, so while it would have been very interesting to read Tolkien's take in his new tale... it was not necessary. Man as imperfect mortal beings are capable of good and evil. Sauron's greatest power derived from his ability to corrupt thus take advantage of man's inherent capacity for evil to add to his own. Without Sauron man is still perfectly capable of great evil (and great good). Compare the USA's Founders who bequeathed the greatest form of government the world has yet known but at the same time were wholly incapable of ending the evil of slavery. Compare to Abraham Lincoln who was able to preserve that government and end slavery... perhaps the greatest representation of governmental leadership the world has ever seen... vs the leadership of Hitler who in 6 short years led one of the greatest, ,most cultured, and most powerful countries which had ever existed.. led it into utter ruin. We are human and thus we will always struggle between good and evil. The most important lesson to learn from Tolkien is to be very wary of those who offer good but only to be provided after willingly to ceding one's autonomy.
@@Julian-ix5he Yes indeed, arguably not at its 'greatest' in its current practice due to the creation of an unconstitutional '4th branch of government' the bureaucratic state which expands federal power too much and places authority in unaccountable unelected bureaucrats but still great. I know of no other system which maximizes individual liberty and limits governmental overreach while minimizing tyranny of the majority AND tyranny of the minority yet remains, due to its institution of federalism, adaptable and flexible allowing overtime best governing practices (well... as best as government can do). Can you name a better form of government?
@Pil Roberts I disagree that the US version of a government is great because one the president has too much power, the electoral college doesn't deal democracy fairly, lots of corruption, I believe the Westminster parliament system is fairer, if you take a look at the Australian democracy version of parliament we are not chained to the European parliament shackles and have more freedom under the commonwealth reign of Queen Elizabeth the second, but I am going off track, back to topic, America is no longer about freedom and more about oil stealing, weapons sales which makes the world fight more and the fact the country of USA gone backwards under trump and the GOP hampering the last president, on a positive note the congress is mostly democrats now, thoughts?
i.e. we are living Post-Enlightenment "liberty," which purports to offer emancipation from the One, transcendent source of all Truth, Beauty, Goodness (which is what Tolkien believed in real life).
Sauron didn't start his life as an evil being. He was a high order Maia that got corrupted by Melkor, who is immortal and thus could have found a way to corrupt some men at the time of The New Shadow. Or maybe Sauron had a satellite servant, like Melkor had in Sauron, who convinced men to their evil cults after the death of the great king. It would in no way diminish the history layed out in the Lord of the Rings - Tolkien would've found a way to explain the rise of the New Shadow in a convincing and non-degradingly logical manner. I'm sad he didn't write it
OH GOD NO! Delete this before Hollywood sees it, since they are so beyond creatively bankrupt it is undeniable, and destroys one of the last great cinematic experiences with a sequel. Well, actually the HOBBIT (btw do a deep dive if u dont know and... WOW. This "trilogy" had a country protesting its handling and i agree) was kinda... Ahh fkit. Everythings fked. i give up lol (side note: whoever thought they would see poor Picard starting to reach William Shatner levels of cringe. Damn such a shame and now its begun with gaming)
I personally, am very glad Mr. Tolkien did not write anything else after LOTR. It is very hard to improve upon perfection and I don't think writing about new perils would have been good. After all, he lived to see what happened after the wars and in between WWI and WWII. Man is just not happy without conflict. If you don't believe me, just look around and listen to all the hate being generated in the US, and even abroad today.
I. Th. Tolkien probably would have found a way to make her not feel pointless and if Tolkien had Lord of the Rings fully planned out when he first wrote The Hobbit, He would have very likely included Legolas in The Hobbit (most likely a small role or cameo)
It is good, that he buried it. If any sequel, he should have made a piece about the end of the fourth age and Dagor Dagorath. The return of Melkor and his final destruction. Timewise it is far away enough, not to diminish the Lord of the Rings and it would be the closure, as fortold.
Evil never dies. haha. I think Tolkien should've completed this book because it was a challenge for him but I respect that he didn't because unlike authors of today, men of age were more about the passion and authenticity of writing and not trying to create sequels for Hollywood adaptations and quick money but I'm also frustrated that he didn't complete it. Shoot, up until now, I wasn't even aware of this.
Audiences today: Disney sequel trilogy absolute worst. All the baby Yodas in the world can’t make up for ruining a classic. Tolkien, The best of all of us: hold my book.
Personally I would have been happy to see at least a rough draft of the book. Now that I know about the unfinished book im fascinated by it. I imagine it’s inspired by the period of time between the end of WW1 and start of WW2. With the end of WW1 soon bringing about the rise of the nazi party, this would be the dark tree cult
Is Evil ever truly defeated or banished or just it takes on another form and return. After the LOTR, it would have diminished all the strife and sacrifice everyone had given their lives for. It is best to have a relatively happy ending for Middle Earth. Great video and food for thought, no doubt. Thanks for all you do. Your weekly post is one of the highlights of Sunday's and always anxiously awaited for.
people are evil. look at life right now. there are humans worse then Sauron....... I think thats what tolkien was getting at. everyone wants a happy ending. but happy endings don't exist. life is a tragedy.
Well if you ask me I think Lotr already has a happy ending even with the battle of Dagor Dagorath because Morgoth is defeated forever and all his servants die and a new world is created this time as a paradise for those who went against Morgoth. It's quite similar to the Millenium in the Bible where Satan is thrown into the Lake Of Fire including those who serve him after his final defeat and the 2nd Earth and Heaven is made.
I think the New Shadow had the potential for development. It will be more different and it could be focus our struggle as humans. Since Morgoth and Sauron leave their mark in humanity I think not all evil was erased after the fall of Sauron.
Why is a series even necessary? It's a self-contained trilogy, and the story is finished. I believe when something is done as well as it possibly can be, as in Jackson's three films, it's "done". It needs to be left to posterity. I also have every reason to believe that, like every other film or TV show based on Nordic / European mythology and lore or set in the time of those events, that it will be used as a political tool. What does that mean? Look for "diversity" to come to Middle Earth in a whole lot of ways Tolkein would NEVER have imagined, along with politically charged plot lines involving things like feminism, racism, and every other "-ism" that's out there. This new and unnecessary LOTR series will have all the subtlety of a sledge hammer at a political protest. Count me out.
Well, maybe during the next solar eclipse Dagor Dagorath will begin and we will be whipped out by natural disasters, orcs, trolls, dragons, Balrogs, and so forth until elven ships descent from the heavens and one of us might be Túrin Turumbar reborn
Always thought Saruman could have come back as the Third Dark Lord but that is just my own weird headcanon. A surviving ringwraith could also work maybe.
Perhaps the Mouth of Sauron could have been a primary figure in the cult, if not its leader (Tolkien left his fate ambiguous at the end of the Lord of the Rings). Perhaps the Barrow-Wights could also have served as influential figures within the cult.
"Unfinished" suggests intent to finish and a good deal of work done. I'd say this was the "un-started" sequel, since he shitcanned it after a few pages.
"Un-started" suggests that something remains on plans and not getting started. I'd say this was "Scrapped", since he actually wrote a few pages down and afterwards decided to stop. See? I can act like a snob who knows shit on the internet as well.
Man as a Melkor avatar story will be kick ass. But very bitter. A secret cult that conspire chaos, destruction among man, elf and dwarves. Until a little engineer from hobbiton nation seek the cure.
I'm interested in what hobbits were up to in the fourth age, here. I suspect that some hobbits (especially from Bree) would have moved down to Gondor, since, because of the King's use of pipe weed, tobacco (?) use would have gained popularity in Minas Tirith, and no doubt some enterprising hobbits might have figured out that the more southerly climate in Gondor was good for growing the weed, and gone into the trade- migrating south. There was probably a hobbit ghetto in the lower circle of Minas Tirith, and everything. We know that Merry and Pippin both retired to Minas Tirith in their later years, and Samwise and his family spent a year or so there a few years earlier, too.
maybe like Eyes Wide Shut, the Shadow Worshipers felt betrayed by the artists veiled metaphor of them in fiction, revealing too much to the uninitiated.
I think Tolkien might have surprised himself. Writing something is often a matter of writing, discarding and rewriting. He might have come with something much more interesting that he thought possible himself. A lot of great things in our lives exist because someone persisted when things seem hopeless or pointless...even in the Lord of the Rings.
@@lancejedrickmaniquiz7547 Basically it's similar to the Bible with the rise of the Antichrist in the Tribulation with his supporters like the False Prophet, or the Nephilim entities known as Gog and Magog who all serve the Devil.
Look, I know a lot of hardcore fans will crucify me for this opinion, but I’d love to see another author pick this up but still have it rendered non canon
I mean Tad Williams 'Last King of Ostern Ard' trilogy is like this thematically. And its a sequel to MS&T which was in part a commentary on post-Tolkien fantasy
There mybe a possibility to do the book but not make it cannon that will give to the reader to choose. Mybe the problem is the dificalty to create a book in a level of lord of the rings. At the end I that if tolkin had more time and wish it could be a legend of a book (because the writer and the ideas (deep thinking, when some fells to evil others became more smart and understand its not black and white. If it come with some drama and importment event in the present of the story (it dont need to be an adventure it can be even a complcated and not complete good ending but should not be a complete bed one))) hobbits and dwarfs can be in the story they still in middle earth and mybe humans will learn megic. At the end some my be able to free them selfs from evil by wisdom and empathy.
