Hi, Rebecca, Paul and Rebecca 😂 nice video as per usual always a good feeling watching you all with a mug of Yorkshire tea and Hobknobs, love the joshing about and detective work, didn't notice defective sounds so no worries.
National Star College was previously called the Star Centre and for many years has been a further education college for physically disabled kids. Back in the 70s my school, which was a few miles away, went there for a sports day and I remember they had a big display about the source of the Thames being in the grounds. I'm pretty sure there was some sort of stone there marking it.
I visited the source of the River Coln near Charlton Abbots today and the headwaters were in full flow. I took a number of photos, but unfortunately lack the technical expertise to upload them! Other than about 300m of pipe from Charlton Pool (the actual source) to the 'spring' there are no culverts other than under roads or railway embankments. I calculate that the Coln's headwaters are 3 miles further from the Thames estuary than the headwaters of the Churn.
Thank You Rebecca , for taking me along with you today on the Search for the Source ! I think the College should put up a plaque too commemorating the Great Search , which was done in bitter freezing cold and wind . Cheers from California 😊
I, too, am waiting for a further video on this theme. There may be commercial interest in an official source of the Thames with a conservation area (and café perhaps)to ensure it doesn't get changed again in the future.
Hello, fellow Thames source obsessive @chapmanbookman here inevitably! Lovely film. Of course, if you *do* allow culverting, National Star might still win because the source actually appears to be in the pond there, further north. Still, it's clearly a close thing, and interesting to see Cally Hill!
John Leland might have been wrong but you can't deny that 'Imagine' was a great song, not to mention his work in The Bea....oh wait, sorry I seem to have confused something here.
There are many sources of the Thames, those you have shown and the furthest one is only one. They all start with rain. Great discussion, videos, humour and effort by all as ever.
Sir Tony Robinson did a video on the source to the mouth and it was enjoyable to watch, but yours was equally enjoyable. The point is people will argue forever where these sources are. I would say where the longest route from mount to source even if underground for a while. People for years have been arguing about the Nile and even our great Murray river in Australia. Different creeks and drains throw all sorts of twists into where people consider these sources to be. Love your work, keep it up🇦🇺
I was under the impression that to reach the source of a river you travel upstream and wherever there is a confluence you follow the course with the greatest flow. When there is no more water to follow you are at the source, which may or may not correspond to the longest distance. I guess there is more than one reasonable definition.
Good point- this time we were using the Oxford English Dictionary version but by that measure we would need to analyse the confluences at Cricklade and Cobberley to see which has the greater flow. I have however heard that The Churn has a greater flow than the Thames where they meet, though that is hearsay.
The definition in the video isn't how I thought of it either. I thought it was the point with no more water in the main channel, so tributaries are not included.
Thoroughly enjoyed this, your delivery is excellent and the passion and enthusiasm makes it enjoyable to watch and unlearn and relearn journey of all what has been hidden and covered up, brilliant videos 👍 fun and
Excellent! Was wondering when you might go and see the Ullenwood source. Have to admit the Cally Hill "source" is new to me. Interestingly, that top spring at Cally Hill might be affected by the imminent upgrade of the A417 so it's great you got to see it now. Thoroughly enjoyable. Well done all three of you - Paul, Rebecca and Rebecca! :D
Great video, as always. As someone who has walked the whole Thames Path from Thames Head to the Barrier, I am feeling slightly miffed that I would have to walk from another source, down the Churn to the Thames. Much more planning, cost, and shoe leather required to say "I've walked The Thames"!
Very good video! I love seeing people finding river sources! There's just something special about finding the very place that a river starts - especially when it's a spring bubbling out of the ground or a hillside!
Lovely video. And the Thames is not the only river where the source is unknown. Amsterdam is named after the river Amstel. And I have no clue where that originates, where it is a river or where it is a canal, or even the direction of flow in some of the connected parts.
Excellent video. However, I believe the River Coln, rather than the Churn, is the Thames' longest headwater. The Coln (30 miles long) joins the Thames near Lechlade (23.3 miles from Thames Head). This makes the Coln 6.7 miles longer than the 'official' Thames and 3 miles longer than the Churn (Seven Springs source). Other Thames tributaries, may be longer than the Churn or the Coln but this is negated by them joining the Thames further from Thames Head. For example, the River Windrush is 40 miles long, but it joins the Thames at Newbridge, which is 40 miles from Thames Head.
@@hedleythorne Thank you Hedley 😊 As a long-standing resident of the Cotswolds, this issue has vexed me for years! The map in the video erroneously shows the Coln as the Churn and also indicates the source of the Coln as being at Andoversford (when, in fact, it is several miles further north at Charlton Pool, near Brockhampton). Having walked the Thames Path, I can, moreover, confirm that the Thames doubles in flow when it is joined by the Coln just west of Lechlade. I therefore conclude that the Coln is a valid candidate for being the true source of the Thames!
All very interesting ... but there's a key thing you omitted to mention: just across the road from Seven Springs is the Seven Springs Hotel which is my grandson Isaac's favourite places for breakfast! They do Belgian waffles with bacon. And 7 springs is the source of the Churn which flows right past Tesco Extra in Cirencester which is where I charge my EV when visiting Isaac who lives just walking distance away!
Hedley/Rebecca's drone footage is gorgeous! Fascinating fun to figure out where the headwaters of a river are. It is amazing to see how a small source over miles and tributaries grows into the huge rivers we love. I've seen the headwaters of the Mississippi River. What else can I say? Having crossed that wide river many times, I am in awe of how small it started.
Paul and Rebecca are a great mechanism for getting this information out there! Regarding the actual source, it is an itch of mine which I have needed to scratch for a while.
I'm ecstatic that I've found your channel. I absolutely love all of your videos. The sense of adventure and the building excitement of potentially finding something extraordinary is just plain Awesome!! Living close to the Erie Canal I've spent plenty of afternoons in and around looking for anything older than me. If you need a behind the scenes guy to mind the refreshment cooler, than I'm your guy. Keep up the good work 👍
I don't care, it's Rebecca's River from now on!! You have to wonder whether it was William "strata" Smith who drained that field unwittingly shortening the length of the Thames. Great video, really enjoyed this one. Great baptism for the new office👏👏 Good luck from Spain!!
At 8:00, that water basin is exactly like ones you might find near me in Northern Virginia, USA. We are in Loudoun county, which was historically known for its excellent spring water. The local farms, logically, took advantage of the springs by putting these near or on a spring so that they would never need to be manually filled and the water was always fresh. A few of the farms near me still use them, others have been removed, still others are used as little ornamental ponds with fish and frogs.
Incidentally, we have a well, and the water here is still quite excellent. It's pure and clean enough that we've been able to make some very good home brewed beer from it!
“to be a river, you have to flow on top of the ground”? I know several rivers in London that disagree with you there 🤣 and Headley(sp?), you are a great fun addition to the video and play off of the duo perfectly 😎
Thanks! I really enjoyed doing this. Paul and I had discussed it for weeks on our Wessex Ways podcast and I just said to him- "we need to drive out there and work it out for real"
"experimental style for this weeks video" - yes, definitely liked it, when all the indoor cameras give the same colour rendering will be better of course!
That is till the water disappears from these. Because this is rising in limestone, even if it is oolitic, at any time water at some future date could go underground and form an underground flow coming out later. Even 60 years ago water was higher up the valley closer to Thames head. The same could happen to these. Interesting video. Thanks.
I was talking to a friend at work about your Thames videos as we were stood next to the Itchen river talking about where the source of this could be and amazing how such a little feed can cause a huge river :)
Excellent video, very informative and entertaining, despite my disappointment on having driven past the “source of the Thames” en route to Kemble, always wanted to stop and have a look but never got the chance , so you have saved me a wasted trip! I await any further updates with interest😊
I went to Thames Head with Mrs Thorne, it was dry. And she turned to me and said "We drove for nearly two hours to stand in a field". I feel that I failed to woo her there.
The source of a river is the ferthist highest point from the river mouth, the seven springs is said to be the highest but I do wonder if the source of the river Clone is not higher,and the river Windrush is the longest water course,there for therefore they both have a claim to be the source of the Thames.
Timely, I was at Seven Springs today (on a walk from Leckhampton). Curious to think the Thames watershed gets that close to Cheltenham, which I'd think was more Severn territory
Very fun video! It was only a few months back (or late 2022) when I saw a US news story about how the source of the Thames had dried up -- and they were only discussing the Leland-designated source, but I knew that you guys would find the truth!!!! 🙂
I'm not sure where you got your definition of the "source" of a river, but there are plenty of counterexamples, most notably the Mississippi River in the USA whose source is in Minnesota, but a substantial fraction of its flow comes from much further away where the Missouri River rises near the Rocky Mountains and joins the Mississippi at St.Louis. It really all depends on which branch, going upriver, keeps the name.
That goes to show that the Missouri is the upper part of the Mississippi. And before that, Brower's Spring, Hell Roaring Creek and Red Rock River are the upper part of the Missouri, and therefore of the Mississippi. It doesn't matter if different reaches of the river are given different names. The Mantaro, Ene, Tambo, Ucayali and Solimões are all parts of the Amazon despite their different names.
... as well as what definitinon you use, for example in Switzerland; - the "Sources of the Rhine" is similar complicated, if you go for example by "larger discharge" most of the Rhine suddenly becomes Aare - then there is the Orbe that sources near Les Rousses, disappears naturely underground (mostly) in Lac de Joux and (finally) in Lac Brenet appears again powerful "Source de l’Orbe" near Vallorbe merges with the Talent near Orbe (the municipality), takes the name of Thielle/Zihl and wents to the Aare ... by the way I recomand "Grottes de Vallorbe" incase someone is nearby there should be numerous examples of depending on rules about rivers, how to use them and exceptions.
Using flow as a determinant, you could make a good argument to rename the lower part of the Mississippi River to the Ohio River. At their confluence near Cairo IL, the Ohio has 40% more water flow than the Mississippi. As a comparison, the Missouri and Mississippi are about equal in volume at confluence (it varies based on time of year).
Great vid - presumably, if it’s a man made culvert then the river did flow there naturally and it is countable??? If you discount it due to it being artificially put underground then you’d have to look at other river sources too. Example given, the river Wey. It starts alongside the Alton Basingstoke road in Alton Hants. It then (some of the year ) runs through a couple of fields and into flood meadows. After that it goes under ground as it runs through Alton town centre. Now, I appreciate I’m stretching a point here but, does that change the actual point of source of the Wey??? In fairness I’ve used this as an example because I grew up around there and know it in detail but you get my point!! River Loddon Basingstoke does the same!!
Very good point. If we remove the culvert clause then it could change things a little, though the outcome would probably be the same as the golf course above the National Star College has the stream going through parts of it too. The river Wey sounds interesting, it is incredibly beautiful too.
The source of the Thames is now always going to be Thames Head. What can change is how the river lengths are listed, like the Murray-Darling and the MIssissippi-Missouri, we now have the Thames-Churn.
Well, I’m glad that, wherever the source may be, you have enough sense (unlike the "official sources") to realize that the true source of a river has to actually have water running out of it!
It is certainly possible that at the time he wrote it down those centuries ago, it was indeed the source of the Thames. Ground conditions, agriculture, and a lot of other things could have changed it over the years.
Some lovely drone shots from Headley (Rebecca? 😜) as ever. I assume there must be a reluctance from cartographers etc to actually correct where the source of the Thames is as it patently isn’t Thameshead or seven springs!
Loved the video . interesting topic,nice scenery and fun banter. Rebecca was awesome and so was Rebecca but that Paul needs to raise his game or get Rebecca to replace him :)
Springs are driven by groundwater levels - higher the groundwater level the more a perineal head of a river will flow and seasonal up stream springs will come back to life. Ampney Crucis is the closest on the Groundwater Map - showing today about 0.75m above seasonal norm. So if the springs your are looking at are not perineal head ie always flow regardless of season then results are not consistent. River Lambourn has a perineal head about Eastbury but seasonal at Maddle Farm - Upper Lambourn. This was my patch I can suggest groundwater data around Great Shefford/Lambourne if you want to check seasonal spring flows in this area.
If you look at the river Severn source it appears to be 11 miles from Lanidloes where it meets the tributary Clywedog, which looks to be 14 miles to its source. Why isn't the source Clywedog? I assume it has something to do with the fact the Clywedog is a reservoir for 5 miles of that distance. I can't find any details about this situation in a quick online search but maybe someone on here knows more.
I enjoyed that a lot. I'm guessing that just about every river in the world has an unknown, wrong or debatable source. Much scope for research, exploration, and dispute.
Why are culverts discounted? Does this mean the Fleet river no longer exists? The Chelt in Gloucestershire is two separate rivers either side of Cheltenham town centre? How wide is a bridge before it becomes a culvert?
Not sure if I remember correctly but, did your analysis previously promote The Thames to the longest river in the UK? It may seem slightly unpalatable, but does The Severn now deserve the same level of scrutiny to establish whether its crown might be restored? Also, although The Trent is some distance behind, it's a tributary of The Humber, so does The Humber deserve some consideration?
The Humber is not a river at all, but an estuary. If you wanted to make it into a river, you would need to rename either the Don, the Aire,, the Tidal Ouse or at a stretch the Derwent. Of those, the Tidal Ouse has the best claim hydrographically (which is delivering the most water?), but the Tidal Ouse is also a stub and has no source. It is a confluence of the Ure and the Swale, out of which I claim that the Ure has the better claim. And fancy that, the Ure actuallly has a source at Hugh's Seat, Abbotside Common, tumbling as a young beck westwards down Lund's Fell. So to get your "river" Humber, you'll need to do battle with the good folk of North Yorkshire and wrest the Ure Beck out of their hands.
Worth noting that the Humber was considered one of the 3 major rivers of Britain by the Ancient Britons, as well as the Thames and Severn. As described in the Chronicle of Brut, an ancient text and our oldest history, covering the period from when the Britons first arrived in the UK about 1700BC to 600AD! It's from this river that we get the region of Northumberland (which I think moved steadily north as land was 'moved' from Albany/Scotland to Loegria/England ...). So what I'm saying is that this means that the other rivers were originally seen as tributaries of the Humber. I think that is a sensible approach to go back to personally!
There are a few problems with the definition. How do you account for different flow rates at different times of year (and even over many years)? How far does a watercourse have to be piped or culverted before it doesn’t count as above ground? And as someone else pointed out, should you always follow the largest watercourse (biggest flow)? More difficult than you’d initially think !
That's an interesting 'development'!! I wonder what the residents/council of Cricklade will have to say about that as they claim to be the 'First town on the River Thames'! I fear that someone might be knocking your door very soon bringing a 'Desist' order!! ;-))
I love adventures but not wishing to sound pedantic, but a 'winterborne' spring can't be counted because if it drys up in the summer, then it no longer qualifies? so I think that you should all go and check again in mid summer and find a source that runs all year round. If a spring runs all year round then it may also qualify as Holy water ?
Great video in search of an 'elusive' source of the Thames. I like your spirit of adventure. Should we perhaps consider the Thames as having a number of sources - headwaters - at the end of tributeries in the Cotswolds, which flow into the Thames. The headwater at the end of the longest of these tributeries might then be considered the principal source, amongst others. A kind of primus inter pares, perhaps.
Drove past Seven Spring on my way to my kids rugby match at Stow last Sunday, was telling him we just driven past the source of the Thames and he didnt believe me!!
The Bourne Stream in Poole starts as a spring, runs overground for a distance, then goes into a culvert for a few miles before re-emerging at Coy Pond, from where it flows to the sea at Bournemouth. So ... is it all one river, or does the underground bit not count?
Very good point. So if we counted culverts I think National Star would still just about take the prize. Pity really as Cally Hill is such a pretty valley.
