Yonatan Adler’s book is great, and our methodologies are remarkably similar, although we operate with different data sets. Distinguishing between what we know, what we don’t know, and what we as scholars only think we know has been my mantra for decades and has guided my research in identifying and setting aside counter-productive assumptions in my field, much as Adler has independently done in his. Another terrific podcast, Derek.
@@charlesedwards5333 Agreement with his conclusions isn’t the issue, it’s agreement with the research methodology. It’s the same methodology I use on my data sets, though those tend towards industrial and military infrastructure on one hand, and non-Sapiens humans on the other. The second is my true passion, the first a necessity caused by the number of idiots who can’t count to three using all ten fingers and all ten toes.
We know now there were 700 years of history written into the first 1000 years AD & the documents don't show up until much later as only copies & fake copies of copies. State-Chattel are conditioned to accept the history & chronology of Church & State, in the land of endless wars, too big to fail, offshore banking, & inherited wealth. In the XII century significant events take place, as described in the Gospels: the coming of Jesus Christ, his life and crucifixion, although the existing text of the Gospels was edited and most likely dates to the XIV-XV cc. In the mid XII century, in the year 1152, Jesus Christ is born. In secular Byzantine history he is known as Emperor Andronicus and St. Andrew the Apostle the First-Called in Russian history he was portrayed as the Great Prince Andrey Bogolyubsky. To be more specific, Andrey Bogolyubsky is a chronicler counterpart of Andronicus-Christ during his stay in Vladimir-Suzdal Rus’ of the XII century, where he spent most of his life. In fact, the Star of Bethlehem blazed in the middle of the XII century. This gives us an absolute astronomical dating of Christ’s Life. [ЦРС], ch.1. ‘Star of Bethlehem’ - is an explosion of a supernova, which at present is incorrectly dated to the middle of the XI century. The present-day Crab Nebula in the Taurus Constellation is the remnant of this explosion. Enigmatic timber scarcity in Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages as first recognized by dender-pioneer Ernest Hollstein (1918-1988) "No sites exist anywhere with uninterrupted timber specimen from about 1000 CE backwards to Imperial Antiquity(1st-3rd c.). which is why the dendro-chronologies for Ancient Rome and, thereby the entire first millennium are in disarray. Since the very existence of the chronology periods without wood samples was never doubted by the researchers, nobody started to question our textbook chronology. Instead, out of stratigraphic context, scholars searched for wood samples in wells or moors to fill the irritating gaps. In addition, identical reign sequences were used twice in a row to gamer more years. Therefor, "all dendrochronological datings done on West Roman time wood is wrong by some unknown number of years"(") ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-c876lPZ-UZU.html&ab_channel=PlanetAmnesia
This was real good, love Yonatan Adler :) BTW I find it amazing that a proud Jew like Yonatan can be so intellectually honest. Compare it with Protestant Christians, let alone Muslims…
I’m fascinated by the notion that the Torah is not merely a way of life, but might be seen as a constitution - a foundation document for a people. I find it interesting in light of having heard that the Greek epics were not just sit-around-the-fire stories but were textbooks.
The Bible is not a book. It's a library, containing theology, philosophy, folklore, law, poetry, and even erotica (check out the Song of songs in a modern translation.) even the Old Testament alone is the library of an entire civilization.
It's not a library because it's just one book. It's an anthology collection with works made different authors who never met each other and end up contributing to the lore based on their own understanding of their time, like the Lovecraftian mythos.@@milascave2
And yet it’s dwarfed by the vedas in every possible way. The story of Moses and noah are found in the Mahabharata Abraham Sara A Brahma saraswati Krishna krista cristos Christ Judaism, Christianity Islam are all watered down , edited, renamed transmigrations of knowledge from n india
Very well prepared interview, kudos to Mr. Derek Mythvision. I would really love to hear the comparison of how Galileans observed the law as opposed to the Judeans. I am really curious about how Palestine is shaped by the Hasmoneans right before Jesus' time. I would love to hear more from Dr. Adler.
Have I mentioned lately how truly impressive your channel has become? I was just reading an article about your guest's new book in Smithsonian Magazine and was going to suggest that you attempt to interview him, and you already have. Great work, as always. I think you've really found your calling.
This was really interesting. I'm usually critical of some of the people you have but this guy was super interesting. I kept rewinding it to hear it over again to make sure I got it all...
Although I am a religious Jew, I find this video incredibly confirming. My own studies over the decades, of my faith's history and traditions has led me to many of the same conclusions expressed here.
Glad that you are still practicing your religion. Can you advice me on how I can continue to be religious despite all the historical untruths imbedded in my faith? You see, there is still a part of me that finds comfort in these ancient texts.
@Great Expectations pardon the late response. I had to come to terms with the probability that the ancients never had access to the written page that they could hold in their hands and refer to as the inerrant word of G-d. These stories were preserved orally and probably told a little differently by different orators. That being the case, historical accuracy likely took a back seat to the meaning. I'm not a Jew who believes everything in our Bible happened exactly as it was written, but I do believe that the 613 mitzvot (commandments) we derive from them help place our feet on a more righteous path.
I just watched the interview. It totally blew my mind in terms of how I viewed the history of the ancient near east. Especially given the mystique that Judaism had among the Greco-Roman peoples for being ancient.
Did the ancient Greeks and Romans really consider Judaism ancient relative to the time they lived in? I know that Flavius Josephus did, but his position was special. I thought most ancient Greeks considered Jews weird.
Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts Yam or Yamm, from the ancient Semitic word meaning "sea," is the name of the Canaanite god of rivers and the sea. Yam was also the deity of the primordial chaos. He represented the power of the tempestuous sea untamed and raging. Also called Nahar ("river") he additionally ruled floods and related disasters. In West Semitic mythology, Yam was given kingship over the other gods by the chief god El. When Yam's rulership turned tyrannical and he possessed El's wife Asherah, the storm deity Baal (Hadad) challenged and defeated Yam in a titanic battle, ending with Yam cast down from the heavenly mountain Saphon. The mythic sea dragon Lotan, whom Baal also defeated, was closely associated with Yam and possibly an aspect of him. A similar sea-demon appears in the mythology of many cultures. The biblical monster Leviathan is seen as related to Lotan, and his dwelling, the sea, is called yam in the Hebrew Bible. Yam's defeat by Baal (Hadad) parallels the Mesopotamian legend of the storm god Marduk's victory over the primordial sea goddess Tiamat. Numerous other parallel myths have been noted by mythologists and religion scholars, often interpreted as representing the triumph of heavenly order over primeval chaos. A primary source for our knowledge concerning Yam is the Epic of Baal, also known as the Baal Cycle, which describes the storm god Baal coming to ascendancy in the Canaanite pantheon. In the beginning, the kindly but distant El, the father of the gods, bequeaths the divine kingship to Yam. The sea deity, however, soon turns tyrant and oppresses the other gods. Asherah, the mother goddess, attempts to reason with Yam, but he adamantly refuses to relent. In desperation for the welfare of her children, Asherah finally consents to give Yam her own body. Sitting in council with the other gods, Baal is outraged at this idea and determines to rebel against Yam. Hearing of Baal's plan, Yam brazenly demands that Baal be handed over to him for punishment, sending emissaries to the Assembly of the Gods who show no respect even to El. Baal secures weapons from the divine craftsman Kothar-wa-Khasis and proceeds to defeat Yam in a mighty battle, rescuing Asherah from her fate and liberating the other gods from Yam's oppression, thus becoming their lord. However, Baal in turn proceeds to be defeated by Mot, the desert god of death and infertility, who accuses him of having killed the great sea serpent Lotan, closely associated with Yam. Baal himself is rescued by the efforts of his sister Anat, so that he may rise again and reign supreme in an apparent re-enactment of the annual cycles of rain and drought. Little is known about the manner in which Yam may have been worshiped. Biblical echoes: In the Biblical tradition, the polytheistic mythologies of the sky and storm gods conquering the primordial sea demon is replaced by the idea that God reigned supreme from the beginning. Thus, Genesis 1:1 states: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Yet, in the following verse, even before the creation of light, an echo of the older myth of the sky god creating order out of the watery chaos may be seen: "darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." Psalm 89:9 reiterates the theme of God's sovereignty over the chaotic deep: "You rule over the surging sea; when its waves mount up, you still them." However, Psalm 74:14 preserves a tradition which reflects the Hebrew deity Yahweh's acting in Baal's role, by defeating the sea monster Leviathan (Lotan): "It was you who crushed the heads of Leviathan and gave him as food to the creatures of the desert." The Book of Job 3:8 seems to refer to a day when the tyrant of the sea will wake from his sleep, speaking of "those who are ready to rouse Leviathan." Isaiah 27:1, meanwhile refers to God's victory over Leviathan in the future: "In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong, will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan that twisted serpent; He will slay the reptile that is in the sea." The bronze "sea" (yam) which stood before the Temple of Jerusalem was about 15 feet in diameter. The Hebrew word for "sea" in these verses is yam. In ancient Israel, God's sovereignty over the waters of chaos was symbolized in the Temple of Jerusalem, as in many other ancient temples of the Middle East, by the presence of a large bronze "sea" which stood placidly near the temple's entrance. The story of the prophet Jonah involves an episode at sea in which Jonah is blamed for a life-threatening storm by his pagan shipmates after they cast lots to discover who is responsible. He is thrown overboard by the sailors in an effort to assuage his angry deity, Yahweh, and is swallowed by a great fish who seems to be a type of Leviathan. The story may hint at a practice followed by Levantine fisherman involving human sacrifice to Yam in times of extreme danger. In some Christian interpretations of (Genesis 3:15), the serpent of Eden is seen as equivalent to Leviathan, whom the Messiah (or the Archangel Michael), like Baal, will one day vanquish: "He will crush your (the serpent's) head, and you will strike his heel." A relevant passage in the Book of Revelation reads: "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world." (Rev. 12:9) Later, Revelation describes the final destruction of Satan, after which the declaration is made: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea." (Rev. 21:1)
Dr Adler, I salute you. Deep archeological research and, just as importantly, you have a rare ability as a scholar to communicate your findings to the laity. More than that, you know how to connect your research to common misunderstandings. And Thanks 🙏 Derek, another incredible video.
This is really good. Gotta say man, you really seem to be at the forefront of getting onboard scholars who are engaging in some very interesting theories. I think Yonatan's and Russell's books could become standard reading on the subject in the coming decades (maybe within a decade).
I really appreciate Dr. Adler’s reliance on proven data to support his findings. I first became acquainted with the concept of the paucity for the evidence, to support an historical Israel prior to the seventh century, in Robert Bellah’s book, “Religion in Human Evolution: From the Palaeolithic to the Axial Age”. This channel is always informative and extremely interesting in the topics reviewed.
We have a lot of archeologial evidence for a historical Israel from the 9th century BC. The northern kingdom of Israel was one of the preeminent powers of its time, until it was destroyed in the 8th century BC by Assyria, the superpower of its time.
This is by far the most powerful episode yet... the whole world should see this episode.... thanks so very much Dr. Yonatan Adler for being so candid with the REAL HISTORY of real facts.... wonderful.... 👏👏👏👏👏👏👌👌👌👌👌👌🖖🖖🖖🖖🖖🖖
I really enjoyed this interview. Great content once again from Mythvision. As for constructive criticism, Yonatan seems to be encouraging people to buy his book through scarcity of information. Numerous times in the interview, he withholds a direct response to Derek’s questions by saying something to the effect of “it’s in my book”. While I appreciate that he wants more people to buy his book, this behavior doesn’t make me want to buy the book more, it makes me want to buy it less. It makes him seem more interested in profit than in sharing the truth. That said, what a great subject and I felt both of you guys did a fantastic job at educating the community and creating great content. I look forward to more in the future.
I am not a Bible expert, but I always suspected Judaism was developed in exile by the elite or during the Greek period. I think the Jews were just a random tribe who got swept up in those ancient empires and just developed their own culture and code from their conquerors. Judaism really is a syncretic cult with Egyptian, Persian, Canaanite, Babylonian, and Greek influences. Christianity and Islam are just adding more layers. Modern Judaism is really no different than ancient times. You have basically a small coterie of observant Jews who are part of a religious elite and the vast majority are Jews in name only and do as they please. Most are not literate in the Jewish religion. If Jewish was not a nationality, Judaism as a practice would probably be close to non-existent.
Most Jews today are non-observant, true but many Jews strongly identify as Jewish in virtue of their ancestry and, more importantly, the Jewish culture and values passed down to them, however stripped they might be of religious context.
@@Writer538 The conventional wisdom of the traditional narrative was the religion first, people second, but it really is the other way around. Not only did Judaism start late, but much, much later than people realize. Judaism as a religion seems weird now. It seems it was completely manufactured as a result of surrounding events. Nothing special. But the literature is still amazing. All the surrounding cultures had fantastic pieces of art, sculpture, and architecture, but the Bible is a work of art in itself. Those authors operated at a high level.
All the Jewish people I know have a lot of traditions passed down by parents and grandparents, even in non-religious families. I'm always amazed by it.
@@dianastevenson131 Yes, when I was a kid, I'd go the Hannukah and Passover dinners at my grandparents' apartment and Grandpa would put on his yarmulke and prayer shawl and read the Hebrew for the Pasach. I always thought he was a very religious man. after he died I said as much to Grandma and she said, "Oh no. We're both atheists. He does for the sake of the tradition." Kinda of funny that, almost 50 years later, I played Tevye in Fiddler on the Roof singing "Tradition!"
This is a fascinating topic. I never asked the question, when did the ordinary Jewish person first start to practice the laws of the Torah. Really enjoyed this topic and this guest! I am confused about the synagogue type buildings found in Egypt, I believe the question eluded to 280 bce, however, your previous guest whose name I forget, who spoke about evolution stated that the jews were never in Egypt and he knows this because he is Egyptian.
Oh, so if he is Egyptian, then he knows what happened thousands of years ago? Be right or wrong, it's still funny for someone to assume he can know something like that for sure, just because he lives there.
Thank you for bringing us Dr. Adler; his approach is a breath of fresh air. One noncentral quandary, if you will: why are you suddenly asking your guest to explain something, "If you may"? Why would Dr. Adler not have permission to address your question? And moreover, why would he need permission & from who? I have not heard you ask someone whether they have permission before. Is Adler controversial or ? It reminds me of how Shlomo Sand says he does not have permission from Israel to lecture on his research about how the Jewish identity was created. Shlomo Sand would be a great follow up to this episode.
The tanakh is the priests interpretation of history as seen through the lense of Yhwh. And while the speaker is focused mainly on Torah, we must not loose sight of the fact that, during exihlic times, the cry of the prophet was: we must have sinned since Yhwh didn't protect us. He must be using others to punish us. Then post exihlic times the cry of the priest changed to: we are following the laws, why do you forsake us? The notion that jews were always thinking themselves as sinners, and such is the reason why calamity befalls them, evolves over time. This is what many folks don't get about the Tanakh, is that it isn't a one time set in stone thing, but an evolving account of the Jewish perspective, their viewpoint on God as it relates to their history. This tradition of questioning, interpreting, and evolving then transfers over to the Mishna and the Talmud after the time of the prophets was seen as over (about 400bce, correct me if wrong on this approximate date please. 400bce being the end of the era of prophets, not the beginning of the Mishna or Talmud.)
@@Writer538 and you know such for certain how? No, don't tell me your magic 8 ball brain. Like who but self considered Godly men would bother write such, a naturalist? I just love folks who write a line just opposing something without bothering to back up what they rebuke--which typically means they are more full of hot air and self importance than actual substance. Understand that when I say priestly class, I'm using it in the general sense that they are religious/plus folks who believe in the worship of Yhwh, however we may distinguish them as prophets or whatever. I don't mean it in the sense we do today as someone who necessarily holds religious services--although it can be safely assumed from what scholarship tells us, such compilation and redacting was in the hands of the more modern definition of the the term.
Would love to see Yonatan Adler & Russell Gmirkin together on a show with you. I think they'd have a great conversation and learn plenty from one another (Given that Russell has extensively researched the authorship and textual dependencies of the Pentateuch / Torah, to establish a likely date of authorship, and Yonatan has clearly done research on archaeology, cultural practices, etc.). ^_^ Feels like both are coming to similar conclusions on timelines, earliest dates [of authorship, cultural practice], etc. (IE, that the earliest dating seems to be around the 2nd or 3rd century BCE...)
28:00 Bottom line: no evidence of Judaic practices, observation of Torah law, prior to ~2nd century B.C.E. Which aligns pretty well with Russell Gmirkin's thesis that the Torah was written / collated / invented around ~270 B.C.E. based upon the original Greek foundation myth of Moses. Ptolemy II Philadelphus invited the Jewish Senate to send a delegation to write down the history of the Greek foundation hero "Moses," the "Laws of Moses," etc. Lots more to be said (the "long of it"), but that's the "very short of it." 😉 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-jEyTEy3J5Yc.html Or, at a minimum, it seems like this line of evidence is "'not inconsistent with" Russell's thesis in his academic works, etc.
Seems like various lines of evidence all kind of dovetail into the same conclusion. It [Pentateuch / Torah / Judaism] is a relatively "late[r] development" in world culture.
1:31:25: "They're not falsifiable." I disagree, actually... With respect to the non-falsifiability argument with respect to Russell's work. I think he would disagree, in principle, as well. Specifically, he works with textual analysis, textual dependencies (which texts rely upon which other texts and depend directly upon them, or reference them explicitly, or have explicitly borrowed identifiable passage with specific verbiage unique to one text or translation vs. another, and so on), etc. By identifying which text are related to one another, when those texts were [known to have been] written (on a specific date, or within a range of dates), and so on, one can identify specific date ranges within which a given text could have been written (after texts it explicitly references or borrows from verbatim, but before other texts that explicitly refer to itself or borrow from itself). As to falsifiability, I believe that it is explicitly a "falsifiable" approach or field of study. That is, if one has specified a date range based upon specific known sources, it seems to me that the hypothesis could be partially, or completely, "falsified" by counter-example (IE, finding / proffering a text with an earlier or later dating than those references, which would invalidate the dating, or push the possible dates forward/backward). So, I'll disagree on the "non-falsifiaiblity" idea, at least, of Russell's work, in my opinion. Others, who may not use specific texts / dating / dependencies, but something less definitive or precise, maybe are somewhat less falsifiable if their opinions or evidence are more indirect or circuitous, as opposed to relying on specific hard evidence (known dates of texts to analyze dependencies of, etc.)...
I do not trust Josephus. When I read Josephus, red flags cover the face of the earth. Maybe because Josephus is writing for Vespasian and Titus and adopted into the royal family. Tacitus was also writing for royal interests. I am happy to see that we live in a time period where we can ask questions, and comment without being arrested or killed.
I'll have to check out Dr Adler's book. I like his secular archaeological and anthropological approach. Another great interview. You're getting better and better at this and always have fascinating guests I would otherwise would never have even heard of. I understand that his goal is to nail down when Judaism became an established practice, but in terms of preceding traditions, I always thought Judaism evolved out of the Ancient Near Eastern Babylonian & Canaanite polytheistic religions. [i.e. From Gods to God by Zakovitch or Yahweh & the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan by John Day -which is online in pdf. Anyway, very interesting stuff. thanks!
Yes, Judaism did evolve from Assyrian, Sumerian, Canaanite (Ras Shamra liturgical texts) and Babylonian Enuma Elish sources. But the Hasmoneans brought into Jerusalem during the Maccabean revolt particular Pharisee/Farsi priests and traditions of their clan that changed the original Jerusalem practices, which were Melkizedek based and had nothing to do with the Pharisees or Torah barbecue cult sacrificial practices. These are 2 entirely different religions. The religion of Jesus is of the Melkizedek order that was violently forced out of Jerusalem, and was against the Pharisees and the Hasmoneans, that is the real point of the New Testament, to reestablish the bread and wine focused religion of Melkizedek (Christianity) and put a legitimate Solomon/David descendent heir back on the throne. So the bible is a hodgepodge of several different religious political group's and sect's books, all using ancient regional myths and astro-theology concepts, that got fused together deliberately, with the ideas and distinctions lost in the last 500 years or so, to muddy the waters and conceal the frauds and coup. But the distinctions were known and focused upon by the early Christians, the educated and the initiated. Even the Jerusalem Talmud is different than the Babylonian Talmud. That is some of the original "Judaism". Not Pharisaism that evolved into modern Jewish concepts. So the overall origin Genesis type creation and flood stories, along with Assyrian Tree of Life (Kabbala and Emanationism) etc. were well known through out the region, but the individual cults, clans and sects were also associated with particular political concepts, histories, ideals and aspirations. These narratives are really mostly about politics and power. Here Adler verifies that Judaism as known today basically did not exist prior to the Hasmoneans. You basically only had 2 types of ancient religions regardless of deity names: (1) Those that were anti animal or human sacrifice. (2) Those that were for human and animal sacrifice. The Melkizedek religion was against it, that's why the story of Abraham is there for basically showing a conversion from the primitive human sacrifice, then to animal, and eventually to the Melkizedekian bread and wine form which blessed him. That is the highest point of Christianity in the Eucharist and source of Apotheosis for the believer and form of Mystery religion, which is emphasized more in the eastern Church. The Pharisees are for animal, and some would say human sacrifice as well, like a form of eastern Bacchanalia. In the narratives when the term "Israel" is used it means *Theomachists* and not good. The term "Judaic" when used means *Theocratic*. Politically the Pharisees were against Roman rule, the Sadducees and the Essenes were for Roman rule. Ironically the Romans had JOVE aka JHVH. But the Pharisees emphasized separatism. That's why Christianity embraces Gentiles and all people. So there are a lot of subtle dynamics, with layers and differences that got sidelined. The devil is in the details, and is the difference that makes the difference. Even the word "Torah" originally was not rigid to just mean the Pharisee 5 books of Moses as now used. The Torah/Law ideas of the Essenes and Nazarenes (Christians) is different and always was.
@@user-zo2ge3oe8d Sure, along with the sources mentioned above from Ras Shamra [Ugarit] liturgical texts, Enuma Elish, Jerusalem Talmud [no Kodashim] you can start with: 1. The Assyrian Tree Of Life: Tracing The Origins Of Jewish Monotheism And Greek Philosophy (1993) by Simo Parpola. 2. Understanding The Dead Sea Scrolls (1993) by Hershel Shanks. 3. The Dead Sea Scrolls. 4. All the Maccabee books. There are 8 Maccabee sources. 5. History Of The Jews, Volume II (1893) by Heinrich Graetz. 6. Influence Of Judaism On The Protestant Reformation (1867) by Heinrich Graetz. 7. Major Trends In Jewish Mysticism (1941) by Gershom Scholem. 8. On The Kabbalah & Its Symbolism (1965) By Gershom Scholem. 9. Israel And Babylon, The Influence of Babylon On The Religion Of Israel (1904) by Herman Gunkel. 10. Deification In Christ, Orthodox Perspectives On The Human Nature (1987) by Panayiotis Nellas, translated by Norman Russell. 11. The Doctrine Of Deification In The Greek Patristic Tradition (2004) by Norman Russell. 12. Deification In The Eastern Orthodox Tradition (2007) by Stephen Thomas. 13. Theosis, Deification In Christian Theology, Volume 1 (2006) by Stephen Finlan and Vladimir Kharlamov. Volume 2 (2012) by Vladimir Kharlamov. 14. Deification In The Latin Patristic Tradition (2019) by Jared Ortiz. 15. History: Fiction Or Science? Volume 1 (2003) & Volume 2 (2005) by Anatoly Fomenko. 16. The Medieval Empire Of The Israelites (2003) by Robert Grishin and Vladimir Melamed. I can give a lot more that ties into what I stated, depending on what part is of focus or emphasis. But this is a good overall foundation.
@@koppite9600 Yes. Because story is not archeological facts (finding). Gilgamesh and Mahabharata are 6000 and 3000 year old, respectively. But none ever really happened. They are just that: Story; As opposed to social practice.
His time period for the popular embrace of the written works does coincide with the creation of the Septuagint. Jews around the Mediterranean world, who didn't read or speak Hebrew, became very interested in reading these works in a language they did understand
All cultures, enthnicities, nations have stories about the past. You only have to look at the stories of the past that the various peoples of the Balkans tell themselves to this day and how they cohere with being told of events that occurred in "the full light of history" You quickly find yourself dealing with competing legends and mythologies; none of which cohere with one another; and none of which cohere with contemporaneous writings and reports or what independent sources of outsiders, foreign correspondents; diplomats; and the like were reporting those independent and contemperaneous sources cohere much more with one another; even as they all have their own perspectives and biases. We can go and look at what has been recovered from various palace libraries and government records; scribal writings etc. by archaeology and compare the stories they were telling themselves about the past and what the peoples of their past actually recorded. The Fall of Agade for instance is in stories attibuted to Naram Sin, grandson of Sargon of Agade that actual reflect the deeds and misdeeds of his more obscure successors in the same way as David and Solomon attracted stories that were also elsewhere attributed to other, more obscure, figures. Goliath for instance is killed twice and Jerusalem captured I think it is three times. The Canaanites and Philistines are repeatedly defeated and destroyed only to return as antagonists in stories set later as if nothing happened. The same can be found if you look at British "histories" and annals from times when literacy was very restricted. All these stories of the past from round the world stand in the same regard to "real" history and archaeology as bible stories of the past do to Palestine's actual history and archaeology. Almost none of the legendary history found in Virgil and Homer is actual history but Rome and Troy existed and it turns out the Etruscans came from what is now Western Turkey, so there is a kernel of fact just as there is in the legends that built around King Arthur. Overpriveliging the Bible and Tanakh in the way they have been overpriveliged and taken too literally has reduced them to being idols and/or very silly books that can't be taken seriously. This sadly detracts enormously from their actual importance and worth as the foundational texts of our civilisation. Undermine the foundations and your house falls down.
The problem with the suggestion that Torah only became a publicized Law of the Jews in the Hasmonean era is that the Torah existed at that time and had for centuries. Was it just an abstract priestly thing that no one knew about? There were no synagogues because there was only one Temple in Judea. But there were communities that studied the Torah, such as Qumran near the Dead Sea.
Current scholarly opinion is (and has been since Wellhausen) that the Torah is not older than the Persian period. If you combine a date in the Persian period with Adler's finding, yes, the Torah would have been a priestly thing for two centuries, before the Hasnoneans spread it among the people.
i would like to know how one could determine if mosaic law was followed in ancient judea seeing as most things are not the kind of thing that would really leave any evidence. how would one determine if torah law was or was not followed or if rabbinic takanot was or was not followed? some things i imagine do have evidences but by in large things are not this way.
According to the Old Testament, a penniless nomad, wondering in the desert, hearing "voices in his head", telling him that he was better than everyone else.
He probably was. The other kingdoms were obsessed with conquest and their people with more personalized forms of power. Whereas that guy was given a reason to just be happy in one land and without having to petition a bunch of warring deities for every petty desire. And oh yeah, freedom.
Great conversation but some of response were not clear due to lack of actual evidence.txts can’t be an evidence ( most authors copying each others).. also would like to ask your guest how come after 2000 of history lack of population and land for this specific religion.. appropriate. Answer would be great.Love your show
Thank you David for making this comment. I had the same insight about the ark while listening to this interview. And to reply to the comments by Diana: Making no graven images is not a prohibition but much more as the actual second commandment, which would have been on the stone tablets for which the ark of the covenant, keeping the commandments , was built.
I don't think so. A graven image an idol means a representation of a diety to worship. In Judaism, they only worship God. The cherubim or seraphim around the ark of the covenant represents the angels in heaven around God's throne worshiping God.
The list of rules governing Ultra-Orthodoxed Jews is long, but not endless. It's 613. However, this was not codified until the 11th century AD, when Moses Maimonides went through the entire OT and picked out every rule, and systematized it. Ordinary people with ordinary lives could not possibly do that. Only a super genius who had the time to do it.
I just listened to professor Adler presentation based on his book. My thoughts about the lack of evidence as when Judaism began to be practiced is that illiteracy amongst everyday Jews was perhaps one of the main factors. So the Torah was not practiced abundantly during the Hellenistic period commissioned by the scribes in Jerusalem. and Jews adopted their own system. Professor Adler didn’t mentioned the Septuagint written during the Hellenistic period which was committed by the scribes in Jerusalem. But how then has this ancient tradition with so many stories not be practiced in any form that people could practice? I think one of the problems is that there had to gaps intermittently or to hide their practices for fear of persecution.
Basic Question: If Judaism only started being practiced by the Citizen of Judea at the beginning of the Hasmonean period, what was the use of the Temple that was built using Persian money in 530 BC?
One use was for animal sacrifices, the same practice as in most neighboring countries at that time. Another use that became even more important was as focal point for the Jewish people living anywhere: the people who wrote or received the Elephantine papyri used it that way.
@@Achill101 true. Of course. I almost forgot the tradition of animal sacrifices - or even human sacrifices - in the entire world in those days. Thank you.
@monocle8868 - you're welcome. Yes, animal sacrifices were ubiquitous, but human sacrifices? I don't know. The Romans accused the Carthageneans of it, but Rome hated Carthago, so we can't take their descriptions as simple truth. The story of Abraham and Isaac might point to human sacrifices earlier in the southern Levant (home of the Carthageneans, too) that were then explicitly forbidden by the new religion of Judaism.
@@Achill101 found these two baddies: Human Sacrifices performed by the Kings of Judea: Ahaz or JehoahAz - Ruled for about 16 years, from 732 to 716 BC, sacrificing his own son following a traditional practice by the local Canaanites in those days. 2 Kings 16:3 ; 2 Chronicles 28:3. Menasseh - King of Judea (Israelite Kingdom was annihilated by Neo Assyrian in 720 BC) Ruled for almost 50 years from 697-643 BC, also sacrificed his son(s). 2 Kings 21:1-17, and 2 Chronicles 33:1-20. This makes sense, since the Book Leviticus was only fully developed during the Babylonian Exile (586-538 BC).
@monocle8868 - The Book of Chronicles is from a later time than the Book of Kings and depends on the latter. It is no independent source. . . . I don't know if you've read the Book of Kings: it lists the kings and describes them either as good or all bad. It mostly uses compliance to certain ritual rules as its scale of good and bad, and then adds all types of evil that the bad Kings supposedly had done. . . . Yes, the Book of Kings claims a lot of bad things about King Manasseh (I didn't remember King Ahaz) and claims a lot of good things about his father, King Hezekiah, and his grandson, King Josiah. But no human is this good or all bad: the Book of Kings has a lot of propaganda, and its value as historical source is limited by that. While I certainly don't want to exclude the possibility of human sacrifices in pre-Babylonian Judah, I would like to see other evidence first of its existence, before I claim it really happened. . . . As I wrote, some Greeks and Romans accused Carthago of performing human sacrifices, but, at least for the Romans, it could be equally well anti-Carthago propaganda. There has been, however, some archeological evidence found from Carthageans that indicate sacrifices of children. And the Carthageans were originally Phoenicians who were direct neighbors of Israel.
How did ancient peoples decide which religion to have? My favourite example is the Russians, who's Czar of the time is said to have rejected Islam for reasons that include this "Drinking is the joy of all Rus'. We cannot exist without that pleasure." As a Scotsman, I can respect that....
It doesn’t appear to be sped up to me. Regardless, you can choose your own playback speed by clicking on the cog icon. You can slow it down to make it more understandable. Hope that helps!
I'm not surprised the entire Torah is sadly the story of broken relationship between God and Jewish people. Narrative so beautifully told about the lives of specific people, or with the Jewish people as a whole. It is one of God making a covernant, and within generations Jewish people breaking the covernant and drifting away from that relationship. Actually it starts at Genesis really. And in a broader context, it's the story of all humanity. It's a running theme which for Christians believe, lead to the coming Messiah and the new unbreakable covernant and Temple sacrifice. One that no longer was contained within a birthright, geneology, or of adherence to law or land, but one of faith and love available to all. Such an interesting topic, thanks for posting.
I just wanted to add something for your consideration. The story of the Bible, outside of common understanding, is truly about Yahweh, the god of this world, usurping the True God. He received a people, the Israelites, as his inheritance from a higher god, El Elyon (deut32:8-9). the Coming One came sharing truth (John 5:24,28-29) in order to save them from that lesser god, Yahweh the supplanter, and introducing His Father, Abba, the one true living God. This is the whole point of the Bible. The OT law couldn’t be kept by mere mortals, however He kept it and nailed the ‘law of sin and death’ to the stake and replaced it with a law that leads to Life. He told us no one had ever seen or heard God. It begs the question, who did Moses talk to when getting the law and who did he see in the cleft of the rock. Sadly, Truth is stranger and more complicated than fiction.
@@michelec2848 Do you know much about Assyrian, Mesopotamian, Babylonian, Egyptian, Caananite, Moabite, Amonite, Hittite, Akkadian, History ? Bronze age Levant was in a constant state of upheaval. They were at war for Millenium. People came, people went, people moved, people were carted off into slavery. Cultures, customes, beliefs and people got mixed, married and intertwined. I see no inconsistencies, but i also see beyond the cerebral. What you are espousing is the thought process of modern outlier scholars. It's an interesting hypothesis but never gained traction because it doesn't hold any real weight. I'm o.k with that, but i don't think you possess any great hidden wisdom of the ages, sorry to pop your bubble. El, Elohim and YHWH, were just names, Our God, God, God of the Jews. No one superceded anyone in any way except in terminology. As YHWH revealed himself, traction grew or waned depending on the people. But where are all the others now Ba'al, El, Milcah and Moloch and all of the others of the Semetic people ? Long gone because they weren't God just the imaginings of men.
But which version of the Bible were they studying? At some point around the Second Century bce, a translation of the Bible into Koine Greek came into existence, probably in Alexandria, in order that Jews who spoke Greek but not Hebrew would have access to their ancestral scriptures. This became important to Christians in later centuries, but it was a Jewish artifact when it was created.
Very ineresting, Mr. Adlers finds make it easier understandable why the Jewish belief had so many discussions and groups disputing the right way to live up to thir belief as monodeists having the Thora. It was pretty dynamic and adapting for survival religion over hundreds of years! And in the end in Jesus and John´s times they got the Messianic ideas influenced by Alexander and Julius Cesar.
This is NOT the origins of Judaism but the early periods. The origins are in Jorden in the Canaanite culture and worship of EL so the title is very misleading.
Fascinating!!! So here's the logical follow-up question: So then Judaism had only been practiced generally for 200 or so years prior to Jesus, and only HALF that length of time before Essenes and others began to desperately predict a messianic arrival very soon, and then Jesus as a latter-stage such prophet of Kingdom of the Lord arrive extremely soon; so how come Christianity appended the Old Testament to its scripture if Judaism (as opposed to the much older Hebrew people and their history) was such a recently-practiced religion in the first century? It couldn't be due to Jewish reputation for conquests, because for the 6 centuries B.C.E., all the Jewish people did was lose to all the great empires. So why the reputation? Why all the contortions to need to try to legitimize Jesus followers by prophesies from Judaic scriptures? Or even the compulsion for Luke, John, and others to later demonize Jews -- a by then tiny, homeless, powerless group? Makes no logical sense? Perhaps there's some more history to be discovered.
27:00 I don’t know yet what evidence he is looking for but just because you don’t see the evidence in X BC but you see evidence in X -1 BC doesn’t mean Judaism started at X BC. It depends on evidence. For example if you see proportion of pig bones to goat bones in discarded pile and at a certain time you see the pig bone percentage drops drastically but before that they were equal in proportion- then yes. But if you see pig bones until X BC and before that there are no bones at all, then it doesn’t work. May be there are no bones because people didn’t live there. Etc. 57:00 no bones at Canaanite sites but yes bones at Egyptian sites (relatively near by) strongly suggests anti-pig law or taboo. people at Canaanite sites were practicing “no pigs” law. They could have shared similar taboo as Jews or it was a proto Jewish+Cannanite religion with similar laws. Or Jews lived in that area and later were displaced and moved to Israel.
About the pig thing. DNA testing has confirmed that domesticated pigs came to the Levant from somewhere in the Aegean. There were boars, sure, but as you can imagine these didn't thrive in regions surrounded by desert and were few and far between. The most likely reason why Canaanite sites lacked pig bones but Egyptian sites had them is because the Egyptians brought them there. Canaanites simply didn't have pigs initially. It should also be noted that the "Egyptians" who came to the region were actually a vanguard of proto-Greek mercenaries escorting an Egyptian administrative elite, which explains the DNA evidence. This is also the likely reason why Philistine cities later had large concentrations of pig bones but their hinterland communities didn't: the pigs were imports, thus mostly available to the trading cities. The taboo is probably a later development resulting from the importation of pigs by foreign conquerors.
1:02:00 How does he know most people would have been illiterate? It’s an assumption extrapolated from European society of Middle Ages. What’s the proof? It could well be substantially enough people studied sufficient Torah.
Maybe the idea that most of the ancient Hebrew were illiterate is informed by medieval Europe. I don’t know. However I can think of arguments for the claim that most were not readers and writers. For example: I was always curious about the scribes so clearly mentioned in the Bible. We do our own writing so having a noted profession of selling your ability to write to customers stands out. Did the children -the boys- go to schools? We hear of schools in Athens and Sparta, but I don’t remember hearing of schools in Jerusalem. I would not be surprised to learn that the boys of agriculturists and tradesman apprenticed with their fathers and uncles. The girls? I would be stunned to learn that the girls did other than apprentice with their mothers, aunts, and older sisters.
Is the absence of evidence for Jewish life before the second century BCE, despite the Hebrew Bible describing a much earlier history spanning centuries, if not millennia, be explained that the Jews lived in a different, unknown location before the second centurey BCE and thus not investigated or explored?
there is evidence of early Semites having idols. The question is were they Jews? The jews came from the general population of the Levant, so when did they become jews? How much alike were they with their contemporaries?
@@doyouknoworjustbelieve6694 That is true. Archeology also has shown that excavated Jewish homes post Babylon were found to contain house charms and other non monotheistic icons. Social reconstruction into the one god ideal took a long time for the priestly class to accomplish.
Enforcement of the Torah as Law by the Hasmoneans makes sense to me. However, the rest of the Old Testament "history", prophets and writings, would seem to need some careful review.
Guys remember the 10 tribes were exiled by the assyrians and yudah was exiled by the babylonians. Esdras and his peers started a Yahudic revival... Unfortunately after they built the second temple the hasmoneans from the north rebelled, won and took over. They exiled the zadoks in bethabarra/qumran and replaced them with cohanim, opened the door for the rise of the pharisees, which created the talmud and kabala that led to rabbinic judaism...... Torah/Tanak+Zadok = Yahudim VS Talmud/Torah+Pharisees = Rabbinic Judaism (torah + talmudic-leavened traditions+mysticism+kabala = Rabbinic Judaism)
This seems to leave out a lot. Perhaps what is missing is pointing to later observances that came into practice later. Not eating pork was a general feature of Canaanite and Egyptian society, and Philistines stood out because they ate a lot of pork. The same thing was true of circumcision. The graven images thing was 8th to 7th century. Israelite religious cult was Canaanite and the cultic centers had images of Yahweh, El, Ba'al, and Asherah, and the latter was a big old wooden pillar nearby. Especially controversial, besides asherahs, was bull images. Yahweh was concatenated to El and then to Ba'al and he took on the bull, very early. Another thing that is missing might be that this talk should interest only people who are Jewish. Because I've not seen a single general discussion of the development of Yahwism CARE about philacteries and mezusahs, OR ritual pools.
Second point, Yonaton, makes the point that for so much of early Jewish history that they as a people did not seem to be following Jewish laws etc. He mentions that it arose during the Persian period he does not seem to see "Judaism" was not being observed earlier, me mentions David, Solomon etc and various practises he does not see. Well if he looked at the Bible as history he would have the answer to his issue and better understand Jewish history, he even touches on it but the crux of the issue he misses since he does not want to look at the Bible as history.. What does the Bible say as history? Well if you read it as history, time after time after time, the Jewish people loose sight of following God's laws, prophets etc and they go to following Baal, other gods etc. He notes the golden calf made by Aaron. That is just an early example of them falling away. Go through Judges, all the prophets, even David and Solomon had their moments. If you read the Bible as history, what does it say "X King did that which was right in the sight of God" Or "Y did evil..." etc. King Josiah was a good one. It says "Hilkiah, the high priest, found "the book of the law in the house of the Lord." (2 Kings 22:8. ) Ok, so what does that tell us? That the Law was so far outside their thoughts that when they found it the King said "Wow look at this"!!! At times of trouble then all the sudden they remembered, but during good times, usually they simply ignored it. That is simply history, that is why he does not see it practiced so much and is written in black and white in the Bible, so for him to pronounce that "German scholars noted that it was in the Persian period" that Jewish laws seem to appear, well that is Biblical but makes perfect sense with the Bible. When they were finally captive they turned to God..... finally, and since then till 1948 they had their Jewishness as a core principal. The Bible has all that as history if he would just look at it as history!!!
Keeping the laws of the Torah wax required to keep the Jews together until the reconstruction of the Jewish Homeland. Prior to that, being a Jew in the Jewish Homeland was practicing Judaism. A Rabbi is apparently not capable of understanding this.
For me, im stuck on the idea of what causes a group or a person to say worshipping a golden cow is wrong? What makes believing what they say is right? Theres plenty of strange things in all religions minus the philosophy ones. There must have been an element of power/control over the people like as a means to an end. Like leave the cow worshipping folks alone, by the way some folks revere the cow in India as well. Because of milk product sustenance. I just don't get how these religions got so big, like why can't people just realize they know right from wrong themselves. Ugh
Second century BE to first century AD. The law was not enough. What were these people looking for? Was forced conversion two centuries before the reason they went Christian? Conversion or rebellion? But looking for something beyond the law. Hope?
