THE OTHER GUYS INTAKE TEST-351 CLEVELAND (PLUS 351W) 

The hot ticket with the 4V is to fill the dead spot in the bottom of the intake port to increase velocity. No need to make it much smaller, just keep the air from slowing down as it comes through the low part of the port. A tunnel ram fixes the problem to a great extent, and unless you are trying to get everything out of 4V heads, it isn't a mandatory thing to do. Its something you can do though that works quite well. The rumor back in the 70s and 80s was that the 4V was lacking low speed torque, except the ones I was building and driving could turn a pair of sticky 10" wide tires to molten goo just whacking the throttle from idle, no need to hold the brakes, and all my engines had was a cam swap and headers. 3.00 gears made it worse. I have a 4 bolt 4V headed 72 Cleveland on a stand in my shop waiting for a 4" crank, then its going in my 67 Cougar... for science and daily driver duty. Still have something like 4 sets of 4V heads laying around from when I was messing with them in the 80s.Got big into Pontiac after a 4 year hitch in the USAF, came back to building GTOs and Firebirds in the 90s. The C is the only small block to ever impress me. I can't wait to see what a 407ci 4V runs like.

Yeah so would I,, too give them an arse kicking!! Canted valve is good, intake and exhaust runner sizes is plain too big. Valves are too big unless you want to trurn over 8000 rpm where the dodgey oiling has failed and the engine exploded. Aussie 302C heads are far better.

@@ldnwholesale8552 😂 yeah you're right they weren't the greatest Street motors but I was mainly talking about the engines on the Dino shootouts even to this day it's hard to beat those stock Cleveland heads on cfm flow

@@SweatyFatGuy Hows your Cleveland builds going? A good Cleveland deserves 400+ ci.

@@dennisrobinson8008 will be a while yet, have a bunch of other things to do first. Fuel project, house, shop, two Pontiac builds, putting a 5 speed in the 65 GTO.. things like that.

Very true, most of these youngsters don’t have a clue what the 351c is capable of, even without aftermarket heads,

much appreciated

525 hp seems like a lot for a cam and intake upgrade

@@richardholdener1727 Remember the 71 Boss 351 came with pop-up forged pistons, huge ports with 2.19 intake valves. Back in the Day hot Rod Magazine published an article stating( The 351 Cleveland can produce more horsepower per cubic inch than any other American made motor) Which was one of the main contributing factors why Mr. Bob Glidden totally dominated pro stock back in the 70s&80s Before NHRA change the rules to 500 in.³. So yes just adding a big ass cam, carburetor and headers will indeed produce over 500 HP with a Boss Cleveland.

@@richardholdener1727 Actually it would seem that way but people found out these were high rpm racing heads designed in the late 60's for Fords SCCA Trans Am racing program. They really didn't do much in mild passenger car use. In fact they were to "big" for that. They really didn't show what they could do unless used on what would have been considered a pretty wild engine for street back in those days.

@@robertstewart3086 I total agree with this and I had that article too :)

yes-4v vs 4 valve

I forgive you😎

Ford liked to use V, as in venturi, to differentiate between 2 barrel and 4 barrel carbs. I noticed that too. Man a 4 valve Cleveland head... crazy, but the ports would be a lot smaller.

Most aftermarket 351c heads are referred as a 3v. Basically a 4v with a filled bottom such as a Chi 3v.

How much nitrous ? That's 393 Chi heads and a roller cam numbers lol.

Would be cool to have 2V cleveland tests too, they’re more common than 4V engines.

All the cleveland!!!!!

I believe it. I love chevy's too. Just a cam change in a lack luster 400M would seem like a rocket strapped to your behind. It is a combination of parts that add up to the whole. So let me explain in "gross" horse power why these are great engines to modify at a vary low cost. Some of these estimations are in percentages of totals. Starting with a 250hp 351 2V with a gross rating of 250hp. (net 164 to 167 net) Set of heads with 4V valves and pocket blend 30hp. A torque can with a peck rpm of 5200 or so and eliminating the 8 degrees of retard 50hp. 35hp for a 4 barrel intake. 10 percent for headers and a dual exhaust. All this takes us to 401 gross horse power. In net terms this would be about 300hp. net. I would love someone to show me any other engine that can gain 130 plus NET horse power for under a grand$.

@@bigboreracing356 And your Cummins diesel cost how much?

@@bigboreracing356 My point is you paid for the performance potential up front. Most boosted vehicles cost a heck of a lot more than non boosted ones. The most ridiculous argument could go like this. I bought this car with a NOS system in it. Why heck I added a couple of gallons of race gas, changed the NOS jets, and reduced the timing I added 160hp for under $30 bucks. Shazam!!!

400m. People don't know what they are talking about. I wonder how much else they don't know.

In the Ford engine family the Cleveland and 385 the 2V or 4V does not just represent the number of barrels the carburetor has. On the 4V the runners and valves are much bigger for more power.

@@hom240 That goes without saying.

My mistake on the 385 engine family. You could get a 4 barrel carburetor on a none performance big block. It was the Boss, Cobra Jet, and Super Cobra Jet that had larger valves, runners and intake to get more performance.

@@hom240 If you are the Ohio George Montgomery you've probably forgotten more than anyone in this comment section will ever know in regards to Ford engines. I will always appreciate the advice OGM gave me when I was a young kid building my '91 Fox. Saved me a lot of money by deciding up front what I wanted from the build so I wasn't just throwing parts at it. I also took inspiration from his son's Boss 429. I still have the Fox with 24k on the odo.

@@tmmurphy Not him, not related to him, never meet him. I know of him, and did however live in Ohio for a little over a year in my teen years. Been a mechanic since 1986 and worked in a machine shop for 2 years rebuilding cylinder heads in Gainesville, FL.

I did that on a 383 if I remember right

@@richardholdener1727 I will have to look up the video. I have both manifolds & carbs. The tunnel ram is way better.Thanks 👍

Australian Clevos had 302 2V heads starting as small as 59cc, 351 @v heads starting around 70cc, And then the door stops from the US with humungous ports! From 72-82 both heads got larger chambers, XA XB heads live really well, XC XD XE 76-82 heads are stuffed because the valves run way too hot and burrow up the ports. ADR27A killed them, the reason they were culled off. The 4.1 alloy head 6s were as fast and used a LOT less petrol. More so as an efi version But otherwise really only 2 different heads. No real change from 72-82

@@bigboreracing356 Yeah, I knew plenty of guys that did a lot of back yard gutting and frankenstein stuff too, that made their toys run good. I am one of those guys. However, I am referring to a factory equipped car, with off the shelf parts available at the time. if your guy had put a Cleveland in that Pinto, even mildly equipped such as mine was, it would have have had an even harder donkey stomp, leaving those turd windsors crying. Have a nice day.

@@ldnwholesale8552 That was what I was talking about, the Aussie 2Vs with closed chambers, that we call the 3Vs here. The US Clevelands started out with closed chambers, and had open chamber 4V heads for a couple years by the time the Cleveland was discontinued in 1974 and the modifieds were out. We never had a closed chamber 2V Cleveland head here. The closed chambers were around 63cc, while the open chambers were around 76cc. As far as valve problems, the first year Boss 302s had a bigger intake valve that would get hot and start hitting the exhaust valve, so they reduced the intake valve size slightly in 1970. That was the only two years for the Boss 302, and the rest of the Clevelands never had this problem.

No, sorry I don't have any Olds testing yet

the main reason to put C heads on a W block is availability. There are millions of W blocks out there, and C blocks are harder to find. If you can find a complete C in either 2V or 4V, 2 bolt or 4 bolt, then you don't need the W bottom end. The Ws aren't stronger, there are simply a lot more of them.

@@SweatyFatGuy Maybe in America, in Australia it's the opposite. Cleveland's are more readily available than any Windsor. 👍

@@MafiaboysWorld I know, Oz got the greatest small block ever for a very long time. If it didn't cost so much to get them here I would buy some from down under. Every so often I run into a 2V, but its much easier to find Pontiac parts. I like the C and Pontiac engines because the garden variety parts can make so much power. The 2V head flows very good and they only need a 4 barrel intake, headers, and a cam. Then the 4V with those same things is a monster.

@@MafiaboysWorld Yeah, but the heads are the heads. That's where the power comes from.

@@SealofPerfection No. Shit. Sherlock. 🤦 What the F**K has your comment got to do with my comment? 🤨 All I said was make a Clevor and how readily available Cleveland's are here in Australia. 🤷

Engine masters on motortrend did...they didn't do anything

@@chipcurrey653 that's not entirely accurate. Where you didn't see much power gain you definitely would see a tighter AFR spread across all the cylinders. And the dual plane intake preferred the open spacer and the single plane preferred the 4 hole spacer

wish i still had the 4V

4Vs make great door stops!!

What's a 400m ?

Jnl Jnl there is no comparison. Yes the 400m made good torque but they only had the small port Cleveland 2v smog heads and junk 2 barrel carb. Hell I think the cam for a 400 was less than 200 over all duration and like .420 lift. Richard already put a 400m with a RV cam. It did ok but Richard used Cleveland pistons and the piston depth was to low in block. Then he put Pro Comp aftermarket Aluminum heads on it with intake spacers to run a Cleveland intake and a solid roller cam. Made real good hp/tq for only 8.5-9.0 compression. here, check the build out. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-WV3GRirgj0c.html

did you measure the piston depth?

I admit to knowing sod all about 400m but if the small port m head is the same port as a small port cleveland then let the games begin.

@@richardholdener1727 are you asking if I measured the piston depth? If so, then no because you built it not me. I was telling him about your 400 build because he was asking for a comparison between the Ford 400 and a BIg Block Chevy 396-402. Factory head to factory head there is no comparison between these engines. The 400m is a small block anyways, like the Chevy 400 small block. Seeing the 400m is 1" taller than a Cleveland and talking with TMeyer and just being around Cleveland's my whole life - I know the Cleveland piston is shorter than a 400m piston. Also when watching your video and the still shot of the "C" piston in the block, it looks more like a 1/4" in the hole than .060 like you mentioned. I wish Ford didn't change the 400 bell housing and motor mounts to a big block style. If they were like a small block I would have a 444 stoker 400m kit from Tim. www.tmeyerinc.com/product/rotating-assembly-351m-400-stroker/

@@nova467spanker I have 2 400m motors, one has the Cleveland edelbrock heads on it, with a tiny cam that still sounds stock it made 440 hp 5200 and 535tq at 3500 on the dyno, with conservative timing and 87 octane, with 93 and more timing it runs way better

Fascist Pedant Funny you say that. Now actually compare the FACTORY Windsor heads vs the factory Cleveland heads. This test the Cleveland heads were factory but the Windsor were HOLLEY heads. Hell test the smaller Cleveland 2v heads so its closer and not any complaining like Chevy boys do.

The Windsor had aftermarket heads , not stock , also it had a roller cam unlike the Cleveland flat tappet cam . That's why the hp/tq are not much different , the Cleveland had a little bigger cam too .

@@nova467spanker Yeah, the flow numbers he quoted stuck in my head.

Goes to show you how advanced 4V heads were for their day. Still made more power and had a better torque curve than a roller cammed alloy headed windsor.

351C heads are better

@@richardholdener1727 i think I wrote it wrong I have both blocks was wondering which block is better

heads, cam and intake can help, but 500 hp takes a lot of cam in a 351W

please take a closer look at the actual torque data-on this Boss 351 and the Boss 302-the Boss heads worked well down low

FE , I agree.

Im an FE nut as well, and I dearly wish i wasn't half the country away from him as I would Donate one of my FEs just to see what he could do

I HAVE NEVER SEEN A SINGLE PLANE MAKE BETTER LOW SPEED OR MID RANGE THAN A DUAL PLANE

Spacers can definitely give ya more power. Get a 1/2 inch, 1 inch, and 2 inch and test them all on your ride. A 4 hole 2 inch might work better on a dualplane.

Milled divider on the dualplane will usually pick it up too.

Yes I have run lots of spacer tests-there is no universal yes or no

Okay great guys. So hard I'm searching up those tests of yours. I am now considering tig welding tubes in line with the 4 barrels in a 2 inch open plenum and testing this against other designs. I have a feeling these tube runners will have some sort of improvement.

ONLY THE AIR GAP

I saw the other videos he mentioned with that same Cleveland. Pretty sure closed chamber.

@@morgan2373 i assumed, was just curious. If it was dumping out that power with open chambers I can find those all over. The closed chambers are harder to find. A set of fresh open are like 400, closed are closer to 1200. May as well go aftermarket at that price, although I would prefer old iron.

closed

@@richardholdener1727 thanks Richard.

​@@bigboreracing356 Properly true for stock factory heads, but many aftermarket clevo heads are much superior to any 20 deg alu. Heads you can buy.

you have centrifugal advance still

OK on the dyno at full throttle. Will likely give poor fuel economy on the street at partial throttle.

You had no centrifigual, just total timing. Ok on a race engine, not nice on a street engine. On a hotrod engine Vacc adavance is generally useless. No race engine runs under say 3500 and by that time all mechanical advance is in. And then often wobbles a bit. A street engine seldom runs over 3500 in normal driving hence needing an advance curve so it does not detonate itself top death

sometimes

Set it up so the starter has the motor spinning before you turn on the ignition.

Depends on cam timing. If the cam is small, it can be. If the cam timing is rowdy and bleeds off compression, it'll spin easy.

dual starters on the dyno

Yes!! You need a seperate switch for the ignition,, get the engine cranking and make sure there is oil pressure then turn the ignition on. Otherwise they kill starters and engine sneezes can do damage. Chev, Ford, Holden Mopar,, all the same

LOOK AT THE DYNO RESULTS OF THE INTAKE SWAP-IT ADDED A LOT OF POWER

@@richardholdener1727 I was referring to the single plane vs dual plane. I thought you said the intake runners of the single plane were much larger than the head. You said you were expecting more out of the single plane.

Keep in mind, I did it for a reason. My heads are 220cc. On a 383. I wanted to get better air speed/ response our of the motor in addition to torque. It's mud racing with a heavy truck

the heads are all different, and intakes, and cams

single plane is for higher engine speeds than dual plane on both motors

a cam change would change power with both intakes-it doesn't just work with 1

@@richardholdener1727 true.