Another ASOIAF lore theory, part two of the Fae of Ice and Fire. What happened at the Isle of Faces? What agreements did the First Men and the Children of the Forest reach? Also, I have a Patreon: / meerareads
I always wondered if the Pact is meant to be fairly historical, or mostly made up after the fact, i.e. when the Andals showed up with writing and questions about the First Men and the Children of the Forest not living in perpetual conflict. On the one hand, it's a blueprint for reconciliation, the only true ending ASOIAF can have. Two (or three or more?) societies deciding on cooperation and mutual understanding, with all the sacrifices that entails, rather than mutual destruction. On the Other hand, it's a perfect story to justify some pretty heinous traditions. "Lord's Right to the First Night? It's all to prevent the world from ending again. Just don't ask for child support or I'll drop it down a well." But the most telling thing about the Pact is that the terms are indistinguishable from a "might makes right" paradigm. Sure, the Men get all the places they can inhabit, control, and defend. The Children get all the places they were already hiding out in, plus the places the Men have no use for. What a deal!
I like this idea because it kind of touches on what the purpose of fae folklore and mythology was in the real world - to bind unruly children to traditions and customs whose usefulness might not have been obvious to them so that skills and norms could continue that ancestors had seen as important, or which provide utility to powerful people in the present. Eventually everyone forgets why they were doing it at all - and the myth is all that remains. Similarly here we see myths that may have some counterintuitive use (guest rite is a good strategic or diplomatic tool, the requirement a Stark always remains in Winterfell may have some magical component that without tradition wouldn’t be obvious, etc.) while others (like the lord’s right, as you say) is about preserving the privilege and power of the Westerosi elite, as well as upholding patriarchal norms about male entitlement and female gender roles, and using these fae like creatures as a means to do so - irregardless of whether it may once have served some real or genuine utility.
It's a testimony to the depth of GRRM's writing that fresh videos with variants on theories are still fascinating - if presented in an interesting way like these 2 are. Great work, and I've subscribed in anticipation of further excellent videos.
given that the Pact seemed to involve the Children giving up almost all the land and going into hiding, part of me wonders if there was a pact at all, or if the terms the First Men agreed to were remotely followed. kinda reminds me of real-world histories where the narrative is "we sat down and made a peace and all is well", whereas the evidence is more like "yeah a few people from a few subgroups of these different peoples broke bread once, but overall, one group gennocided the other, before and after that one pretty insignificant moment of peace and cooperation"
I more got the vibe that the Children derive power from deep woods and marshes, places humans don’t want to live anyway, so they divided up the land accordingly. The children didn’t go into hiding proper until the Andals came. Since they had iron, there was no need for a pact. And by then many of the First Men may have forgotten why they had certain traditions in the first place. That was sort of my thesis. With bronze, non-magic humans are about an equal match for the Children. With iron, the Children will be wiped out almost immediately. Which is exactly what happened
Well in mythology even the Fomor/the Unseelie (the Others?) obey the rules according to the truce giving them the land during cold half of the year from Winter to Summer, due to the sacrificial pyrrhic victory of Lugh the Many Gifted who is perhaps also Thunnor/Thor, (part Giant himself) or the dance of the Oak and Holly Kings.
This is a good series. Enjoyed it. If it doesn't go against your own ideas, I have a question or two. Ive been going through another theorist's videos and they've reframed and revived an old theory I had. Before I get into specifics, I wondered what you might think about an observation I made. There are almost no CotF centered myths and legends. In centuries of peace and the First Men adopting worship of the threes there do not seem to be any legends of CotF heroes, leaders, or greenseers. I think there might be an odd reason for that. The questions. Many assume it's possible the First Men took CotF at some points which might have resulted in men gaining the same magical abilities. However, I wonder if this would have been entirely one sided. Could it have gone both ways? Assuming it did, after 5k years how much of the original CotF appearance would you expect to still be obvious? Assuming the CotF were taking First Men wives as prizes in war, or stealing them over the years, would they still be recognizable as CotF? I think we have a problem as reader, in that we tend to think of the CotF as a monolith. Your suggestion of separate groups opens an interesting door that I think might have a large bearing on the Pact.
So, GRRM definitely hints at this a lot. Humans reproducing with giants and mermaids are brought up a few times. I think the Others, CoF and Ifequevron are different races of the same humanoid species. Mermaids might be too. So, ultimately, I think human groups are impacted and influenced by which race of “fae” they ally with (whether through literal or metaphysical reproduction/connection, there are multiple ways to bind blood in magic)
What would you think about the suggestion the Wildlings were not originally First Men? Centuries of raiding have made them as much First Men as those south of the Wall. But, when the wall was built they were mostly pure CotF. Their culture is more elementally CotF. Not wanting to be ruled by First Men kings. They retain a higher incidence of skinchanging because they were. That's how skinchanging started to appear in First Men. As they lost most of the appearance of CotF they were seen simply as First Men, though their ancestors weren't. The word Wildling may have more to do originally with not fitting in with CotF culture. Wild because they weren't following the greenseers either. Honestly, I think it's a bit more complex than that. Is there anything in your understanding of the sidhe that might suggest something more like a monkey in the middle situation? Like a middle ground group between an to antagonistic ones? Something like a third perhaps blended group standing between the Tuatha and Fomorians?
I believe "The Others" that existed before The Long Night were the Green Men and their consciousness through the Weirwood Net. When Azor Ahai AKA The Night's King caused The Long Night, this expelled the Green Men from the Weirwood Net in the form of The Others. It's when they became The Others that the children of the forest and the first men made a pact to work together.
The isle of face’s is most likely where the final battle between humanity and the others will happen Jon Snow in my opinion will be Azor ahei reborn holding Lightbringer leading the armies of Westeros and most likely the night king if he appears in winds which I think he will will have a big epic battle on the gods Eye and you might say otherwise because of the whole human X white walker peace treaty thing but George has been known to destroy our expectations and maybe add a little twist at the end
So there's a few things that don't make sense with this narrative, namely the Wall, Winterfell, Casterly Rock, Storm's End, the Hightower and the Ironborn. I could buy that the Other's made the Wall. And its clear that in general, grrm made his asoiaf architecture more impressive than real-world stuff, realism be danmed, so to an extent its fruitless to make this argument. But Winterfell, Casterly Rock, Storm's End and the Hightower? They would require a lot more advances technology than bronze age stuff. So... either the Children built them (hard to believe that they would lose the technology, given that they've got the weirwood net to store knowledge), and either gave them to men or were ousted and never pressed their claim to have their stuff back, or there was a group in westeros before the First Men who build that stuff (something-something Great Empire of the Dawn, something-something post-apocalyptic), or the First Men themselves had the technology but lost it? And the Ironborn... hard to believe it was a bronze age, when one of the peoples around literally has "iron" in its name. So... either they had iron (maybe they raided as far afield as the Rhoyne and got it that way) but didn't share the tech with the other First Men, or they got their iron that their name later, after the Andals invaded, or they actually did have iron earlier. Ultimately, i wonder if grrm intentionally made things not add up, to add ambiguity, and a realism of real-world mytho-histories? in contrast to Tolkien, where the objective truth of creation and history is known for certain, and leaves out all the fun ambiguous moral grey areas?
Could you please turn your intro music down? I had my headphones on, volume maxed and I could barely hear your voice, it was pretty uncomfortable. The First Men also had SIZE as an advantage, as well as bronze weapons. Bronze still beats obsidian, wood and stone most of the time, as does being twice the physical size of your opponent if you end up in hand to hand combat. Just as an addition. I'ma fess up here - I'm one of those people who finds the Seelie vs Unseelie court completely ridiculous. I know it's referenced in quite old rhymes and stories but I always saw it as a slightly more subtle attack on pastoralism and paganism by the church than all their witchcraft and satan BS. Think about it - neither court is trustworthy or even likes humans, but the Seelie court may offer small accomodations for humans who serve them (usually with a bunch of crap attached, like missing 7 years of time in the real world with no warning - very "deal with the devil"). They're both courts, rather than any other kind of communal organisation, which helps them appear as a mirror to the church and its intense structural hierarchy (therefore, an antithesis). They're attached to the two major seasons that were paid mind by past peoples (Spring and Autumn were seen as secondary, transitional periods between the Life of summer and Death of winter, though obviously there are always festivals to be had) and were both largely seen as dangerous, unkindly and ungodly, to be avoided (like paganism, also with its festivals organised around the seasonal cycle). But that certainly doesn't mean GRR didn't base his ideas on the concept! I'm just not a fan of it myself. It feels unrealistic (I've never been into approaching natural forces as malevolent, it seems completely bizarre). I still don't understand why you think Weirwoods are so important to the Others, they seem far more connected to the Children. I know, you referenced David Lightbringer (nice crediting work) but I'm not about to go trawl through his videos just to understand another theory vid, hey? Super exhausting! Maybe a bullet point summary of the relevant concepts next time? This theory seems really interesting but it's sort of hard to follow, could use a few more drafts to come up with a clearer, more persuasive way to explain it.
The music was mixed at 5% and my voice at 100%. You may want to check the balance on your speakers/headphones. I know overall my videos are quiet and I’m working on that
@@MeeraReads No worries, will do (it is an extremely old laptop I'm using). Just figured I should mention, in case it was a recurring issue. Love more female theorists getting their stuff out, you go!
@@MiraArrr For sure. They're a bit tricky for me sometimes, because my ADHD makes them hard to focus on (it's probably the reason the sound got to me). But if I watch something a few times with them on, I can get most of the gist. Thanks!
