The Philosophy of J.R.R. Tolkien: Why Things Keep Getting Worse - Wisecrack Edition 

I just read over 25 comments about how you guys forgot mentioning Tolkien's faith or catholizism but not a single one was rude, mean or did use hatefull language. I love this fandom so, so much. He would be proud.

“The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like ‘religion’, to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.” JRR Tolkien Letter to his friend Robert Murray, S.J. (December 1953)

The section about Sam seeing the star in Mordor is my favorite part of the entire trilogy; taking comfort in eternally beautiful things is a real, powerful protection for the mind and has been my saving grace through some dark, terrible times.

Too be fair if I served in the Somme Offensive and lived through TWO world Wars and The cold war. I would have a very pessimistic view of the world too.

Catholicism: *exists* Wisecrack: I've never met this man before in my life.

The Children of Húrin, put together by Tolkien's son, is perhaps the most blatant of his tragedies and it's wonderful. I don't think I've read anything that better understands the sacrifice that comes with a true heroic deed than The Children of Húrin. Tolkien always left scars on his characters, and it is true that death is scant in his novels when it comes to main characters, but the tax and the burden are always there. Even when there's hope, it is always a tragedy after all.

"History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes"

“The journey does not end here. Death is just another path, one which we all must take. The grey rain curtains of this world rolls back, and all will turn to silver glass. And then you see it: white shores, a far green country, under a swift sunrise.”

Tolkien would have loved Dark Souls' consistent theme of degredation

Always love the philosophy videos from your team. Was surprised to not hear about Tolkien’s reasoning behind his “saved at the last minute” worldview. I think some discussion towards his religious motivations would have made this a perfectly well rounded video. Everything else was there.

Estel means Hope and Trust... In other words, Faith. Considering Tolkien’s strong religious beliefs, it’s amazing that he translated faith in its purest form into his work in such a fundamental way, without triggering dogma or allegories (Tolkien HATED allegories). There is a reason writers that came afterward saw Tolkien as a master of his craft, and this is only one of those reasons.

This is good, Wisecrack, but I think it would have been worth mentioning his Catholicism. His concept of Estel is undoubtedly grounded in that worldview.

"it's a great time to be a tolkien fan" sweet child so innocent

Solid analysis, but your premise is severely misguided, making your conclusion miss the mark. You are arguing a measurement of "progress" completely different from what Tolkien was arguing. Tolkien, a devout Catholic, was absolutely pessimistic in human progress, just as you said. But because you didn't delve into *why* a devout Catholic would be pessimistic (as Christianity in general is about a non-material source of hope). You forgot to delineate between the material "progress" and the spiritual "progress." This is an important distinction, as magic, a source of power and influence in Middle-Earth, can be wielded for both good and evil. So arguing magic=natural/old/good and orc machinery=new/evil does not add up. So what's so important about magic being seen as an amoral tool and not as a simple stand-in for "good?" Because Tolkien's argument was never that technology doesn't qualify as "progress," but rather the *important* "progress," the type that elevates mankind instead of keeping it stagnant, cannot be materialistic in nature. Basically, through the Tolkien lens, technology and materialistic evolution is purely a tool: good men use it for good, bad men for evil, but the gun/cannon/tank itself holds no moral value. On the MORAL scale of progress, tech does not factor in. So when someone argues how much better the world is because of scientific achievement, Tolkien is not disagreeing with the ability of technology to spread health and wealth; what he is arguing rather is that there is no MORAL progress, and therefore if the QUANTITY of good we can do is increased but moral stagnation doesn't alter the QUALITY of good/bad or doesn't change the individual propensity to dispense good/evil, then all that has changed is the amount of good or evil we can produce has been increased on both sides. While wars have created leaps in medicine out of necessity, that same necessity has borne weapons of mass destruction. You only missed Tolkien's argument (at least in my estimation) because you did not recognize the difference in the two types of progress, and so you were never arguing with the same definitions.

Tolkiens philosophy was that the modern world is more mediocre than before, less wonderful, but also less horrific It was the land of high elves and gods in the land, but also melkor and numerous dragons including one who crushed mountains and balrogs then the land of high numernorians but also sauron and fire breathing dragons then the remnants of gondor and the shade of sauron and a single balrog then just men

I'm so happy that we got a non nihilistic philosophy video from you guys. Love Tolkien even more now.

‘Now goblins are cruel, wicked, and bad-hearted. They make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones.’

I know a bunch of comments have said something to this effect but you cannot overlook Tolkein's traditional Catholicism as an influence of his thought and philosophy of history, especially considering he was a medievalist. I know there's a modern distinction between philosophy and theology, but the medieval thinkers - they think philosophy is just a means to knowing God. The first thing that jumped out in my mind that'd be important are the ages many medieval thinkers constructed history. Augustine is the most important - he believed in seven ages roughly corresponding to different biblical periods from the City of God. Like Tolkein Augustine was pessimistic about the age we're living in. People are sinful and just find ways to do worse and worse things. Ultimately Jesus will redeem us and begin the eternal sabbatical, I think this is what undergirds the idea of the eucatastrophe

Did you just say that Tolkien thought evil was the most powerful force in the world? No. NO. Tolkien believed evil (Satan) was real and powerful, but he very strongly believed that good (God) was infinitely more powerful and would triumph in the end.

I mean yea; he believes in Christ and His return. Leaving that out fundamentally misses his philosophy on history IMO

JRR Tolkien passed away in 1973. Reverse that number and we have 3791. Does that number seem familiar? *Three* rings for the elves, *seven* rings for the dwarves, *nine* rings for men, and *one* ring to rule them all. Have fun with that now!

It’s honestly just weird that you even mentioned Lewis and yet failed to touch on or identify the driving force behind all of Tolkein’s “philosophies,” AKA his deep faith

It is interesting to hear a secular interpretation of a Christian mans view point. What you call pessimism is actually a pragmatic view of a fallen world, and his hope in the true power of God to deliver him from it.

I want a whole trilogy about hobbits in the shire. Never leaving to have adventures, just eating 2nd breakfasts and smoking a pipe for 9 hours

Did I miss the bit when Tolkien being a Professor of Anglo-Saxon was mentioned? His interest in Norse legends?

You really should have mentioned Tolkien's Christianity, as that is a big part of how he wrote all his works and portrayed evil.

Do you ever get that exhausting feeling of nostalgia/awe when talking or thinking about Tolkien and his works? For me Tolkien has been a spiritual and mental guide of sorts, he has given me hope in the darkest hour and beauty and joy into the declining world. I feel somehow connected or bound to him. There is something completely ungraspable about the beauty of his works. "For if joyful is the fountain that rises in the sun, its springs are in the wells of sorrow unfathomable at the foundations of the Earth."

Smoke Longbottom Leaf every day.

"Later, Agent Smith doing his best Morpheus impression-" BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA 😂🤣😂🤣😂

"In the Lord of the Rings the conflict is... about God, and His sole right to Divine honour." - Tolkien. Dang Wisecrack missed the mark on this one.

5:40 I drive past that mill everyday to work! And he's right it looks horrible

According to Lewis, they became friends due to their shared love of myth, particularly Norse mythology while Lewis was still an atheist. Lewis thought Christianity was just another myth, but Tolkien convinced him it was the one myth that was historically true. You guys discussed his view of history being pessimistic but that history will have a happy ending that will come unexpectedly when all seems lost, one might say "like a thief in the night." It seems to me that one would have to go to great pains to mention Tolkien and Lewis' friendship and their shared views on myth and history and fail to mention their shared religious views which is prevalent throughout the writings of both men and was the uniting force of the Inklings. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-YIKKZjpAA0M.html

I don't know about this whole 'everything is getting worse' idea. I read children of Hurin, and let me tell you, Morgoth does stuff that makes Sauron look like an angry kitten. And Shelob's mom makes Shelob look roughly the size of an actual spider. Seems like the evil's getting weaker to me.

3:01 I love that kind of thing. The guy's sitting there playing an empty bottle with his eyes locked, deadpan, on the camera. It humanizes someone that lived over a century ago and, just for a moment, transforms that small snippet of what would otherwise be a stark, grey clip into a 3-dimensional moment I can easily imagine myself experiencing. It's not that I don't know things like that happened generations ago, even amidst a world war, but it creates an emotional link. He's more than just a historical figure living his tough, austere life. In fact, I know people like him--at least in terms of his sense of humour.

I don’t understand how you can go through all of this and not mention the man’s catholic faith.

How? How can you mention impersonal evil, other forces, and the entire concept of eucatastrophe, without mentioning the strong Catholic faith that drove all three? The conflict between good and evil, and the fall from grace of powerful, great beings, the INTERNAL battle so characteristic of theological philosophy, these are linked vitally to Tolkien’s faith. The fundamental idea of the miracle, of the guiding will of a good force beyond this world, is a Christian concept. You missed the entire point of this philosophy. History declines because evil corrupts it, yes, but it is the combination of good and trust in HIGHER POWERs that make the stand. Fundamentally, there is a trust that the miracle, the eucatastrophe, will happen, and thus history is FAR better than it might have been, and echoes of previous ages come down through time, all the way to us today.

I'd like to add that Tolkien's hope came from his strong Catholic faith.

I saw the two towers 9 times at the dollar theater when I was 11. Lotr was my childhood lol

Tolkien was a Christian, that's why he believed what he did. Estel is trust, hope or faith.

As much as I enjoyed this video and its understanding of Tolkien, I believe you did him a great disservice to his philosophy by never once mentioning his faith which ties so deeply to his philosophy. Tolkien was seeing the world fall from the heights of the great greek and roman philosophers and even medieval ones such as St. Thomas Aquinas out of the renaissance and into post modernism which many Catholics (myself included) see as a degradation of society and its morals on the excuse of nothing really matters or ideals pertaining to or residing in nihilism. While yes technology and society (mostly justice in a sense) have moved forward and progressed, mankind in a way has lost touch with morals and we can even see now how much we live in a morally ambiguous time with no real trend to higher morality. Nietzsche declared "God is dead!" and plunged the world into a downward spiral of re-rationalizing and contextualizing the world in our own image and idea and not that of God, whom Nietzsche just believed was something humans created to derive meaning out of their own meaningless existence. His philosophy was extremely influential through the 1900s and even today, and many people use it to justify their ideas and how the world should be (aka the sexual revolution, transgenderism, the gay pride movement, the weird trend to socialism and hate of capitalism, so on and so forth, these are seen by Catholics as key examples to how society has fallen apart and now only sees to indulge themselves) and now we look at the world as trending towards downfall. but there is still God and we can trust in him to shows us the way, much like Estel. god is the way the truth and the light, and he will always be there to help us when we are most in need, and thats were we get stuff like miracles and what not, our own real forms of deus ex machina, divine intervention.(the reality of this comment is I just beat Nier Automata and as much as I really enjoyed the game (I highly recommend it honestly), it is heavily with ideas of nihilism, it even directly quotes Nietzsche, and you determine your existence and death of the author and so on and so forth, which I highly disagree with as I see it is as the rationalization of the Doomer philosophy and the best way to experience and decide on existence for the atheist or agnostic, so Ive just been really annoyed as of late with modern philosophy) sorry for the long text blob, but this video just kinda ironically shows what Tolkien feared, you basically secularized him and left out one of his core views to create a narrative that he just believed there were abstract things like "good" and "evil" so as to not (understandably in this day in age, a testament to the failure of society rn) make anyone unhappy as most people today are atheist and dont like the mention of God or whatnot. I don't mean this too be rude in any way as the actions taken make sense but it is just very disappointing as a long fan of Tolkien and his work and this just did not do enough Justice to him and his work. Other then that this is very comprehensive and good!

William Morris had an enormous impact on Tolkien's social philosophy, and I would recommend anyone with an interest in Tolkien to read Morris's essays on politics and aesthetics, as well as Morris's fantasy stories.

"Y'all should hear my dad talk about Gondolin when Turgon was king."

"Stories that have been passed down, altered, and inevitably corrupted" Sounds familiar 🤔

Good gracious, that was quite a dance around Tolkein's religious beliefs influencing his works and worldview.

The Lord of the Rings is of course afundamentally religious and Catholic work -J RR Tolkien

Now we need video on Pratchett and progression of the Discworld, to balance it out.

Frodo gave in because he had a lower constitution score than Bilbo

Could have saved a lot of time explaining his worldview by just mentioning he was Catholic.

That’s one of the more interesting philosophies I’ve learned about on this channel. Good watch!

How do you make a 20 minute video on Tolkein's philosophy without so much as mentioning his Catholic faith which inspired most of his work? That's such a huge fail that I find it hard to believe that this wasn't an intentional omission.

Shiiiet, Children you call those cities? In my day, Tirion was the place to be. Now THAT'S a city. Come home at the end of the day, and the dust you kick off your boots was made of diamonds. But more regally, of course.

Assumably for Tolkien the euchastrophe was god. I believe that tolkien was catholic, and therefore assumably believed in god and his salvation and "second coming"

As for any inner meaning or ‘message,’ it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither allegorical nor topical…. I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. - J.R.R. Tolkien

IIRC the reason for decay over time on middle earth was due to Melkor’s corrupting of the land during the first age and wars. You did a good job of explaining how the things got worse over time but the cause was Melkor’s corruption. Video could’ve used more Silmarillion references but overall good job.

"I give hope to the world but keep none for me" 😭😭😭

JUST FINISHED SILMARILLION YES!!!

12:27 "Morgoth, who was himself more powerful than all the forces of good in the world combined." Umm, that's not actually true, and is also never stated on Tolkien's legendarium. What is stated though, is that Morgoth was of equal power as Manwë (if not a bit more powerful). Morgoth was "easily" defeated in the War of Wrath.

More, more!!!! This should be it’s own series!

In a 1971 BBC Radio 4 interview (I think the audio is on youtube), when the reporter said he think that Middle Earth was "this world we live in but at a different era," Tolkien answered "No ... at a different stage of imagination, yes." It seems that later in his life he abandoned the idea of a continuity between his stories and our history. Anyway, thanks for this great video!

Well I think he was right. There's not a war (not in a global scale at least) being waged in our time, but conflict is everywhere, and worse than it ever was!

This is beautiful. It truly is. Thank you

As others have mentioned, leaving Tolkein's devout Catholicism out of the video was a huge oversight. The "long defeat," eucatastrophe, and estel are all obviously and easily analogous to Christian theological concepts that were the foundations to Tolkein's worldview. I kept waiting for you to mention it after each of these points, and am honestly perplexed as to why you didn't. I mean, Tolkein was famously critical of allegory, but that didn't stop him from weaving in these concepts, because these concepts, endowed to him by his religious tradition, were so fundamental to how he believed the world works. I understand religion can be a sensitive topic, but considering the long-lasting effects and influence Christianity has had on Western philosophy, both directly and adverse reactions, I hardly see how you can talk about philosophy and ignore religion. I mean the two need not go hand-in-hand, one need not be religious to engage with philosophy or ethics, but they very often do go hand-in-hand. To leave it out entirely, and chalk his views up to solely his experiences of industrialization and WWI is just... dishonest? It is possible to talk about it in a neutral, academic way without being preachy. This is all coming from a non-christian who disagrees with Tolkein philosophically despite her undying love of LotR. I love your philosophy videos, usually, but this one was a let-down.

Please do C.S. Lewis!

Beautiful video. It's rare to find someone who really understands the nature of Tolkien's motivations and writing.

This was wonderful, high quality as always. But I think now you will have to do another Tolkien video that actually is about how faith/religion influencing his work and philosophy.

Tolkien Philosophy reminds me of the Futurama episode "The Late Philip J. Fry" in some sense.

From what I can tell, this channel seems to be very open to explicitly pointing out when they perceive well-written stories to subvert religious ideas/expectations/values, but just can’t quite explicitly point out when deeply religious ideas play a key role in such stories - even when they clearly do!

Interesting how this video doesn’t make the connection between Tolkien’s “Estel” concept and his Christian Faith.

Everything repeating over and over again as it gets worse and worse, and suddenly there is good, and right when you lest expect it; reminds me of an Anime Lost Song. It is really good.

This was very interesting and I learned lots of new things (and words!:) but I think you missed the most important element of Tolkien's philosophy: his Catholic outlook. The Biblical 'Fall' must have strongly influenced his view of the present as always inferior to the past; the force that guided good in the world was Iluvatar (God) and his 'Estel' for a good ending must have been his faith in the final victory of good from the Bible.

No more 8-bit philosophy, i do love the philosophy of videos though

Tolkien and I share something in common...aside from being fantasy writers and our love on ancient cultures, histories and mythology. Like him, I also believe that progress is as much a curse as it is a blessing (and I use the second term loosely.) Yes; social and technological advancement has brought us many things like better medicine, easier forms of communication like e-mails, quicker modes of travel and such. But like Tolkien feared; the more technologically advanced we become, the more the natural world dies/disappears. Think of how many beautiful fields of grass and flowers were mowed over to put another Wal-Mart on top of it or think of all the beautiful creatures that have been killed for the purpose of "looking good." Worse still is the fact that technology is reducing human interaction. Thanks to instant messaging, things like Skype or Google Home or cellphones. People think they don't need to talk to people face to face anymore. They think "why get up and talk to somebody, when I can just lie here and do it on my phone?" The biggest sin, to me is the fact people aren't reading anymore. Instead of valuing a good book, they prefer something "easier to read" on a screen and "easier to carry." Personally, I feel a book is much more personal to have than a Kindle. I mean; once an EMP hits and all technology shuts down, what will you do for entertainment or knowledge. So; in the end, advancement is a bit of a double-edged sword. While it CAN do great good for us, it also creates great evil; like Tolkien always feared

everything decays and fades away and gives room for new things that are destined for the same processes its the single most ABSOLUTE truth in the universe. all things end thats why in all cultures the only place u can achieve an ETERNAL state of perfection/suffering is hell/heaven, a place not bound by the laws of the universe that we know. even the elves in Tolkien's universe fade, Legolas himself says this, all things under the sun will fade, true they will "shift" into another state of existence (the shadow world) and await the end times but they will "change" eventually.

"There, peeping among the cloud-rack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach." -- J.R.R. Tolkien, The Return of the King. I have no explanation as to why this line evokes within a powerful emotion within so cold-hearted a person as me.

I've lived within half an hours drive of Sarehole for the past two years, and I only got around to visiting it last week. If anyone is ever in Birmingham and you're a Tolkien fan, I recommend checking it out, as well as Moseley Bog - its a surreal, wild and beautiful place in the midst of Birmingham's urban sprawl, and you really get a sense of what Tolkien felt he had lost. On the map it just looks like a tiny, tiny bit of woodland, smaller than most parks - you can walk across it in ten minutes - but it really is quite a special place.

Was waiting for this day to happen when you make a video on LOTR. Good job 😁😁

The oversimplification is strong with this one...

Me: I will be good. I will limit my yelling despite spending a fair amount of personal and academic time on Tolkien's work. *five seconds later* Me: That is... literally wrong. *continues yelling the entire video* Me: At least they'll mention his Catholicism. Right? RIGHT? *never mentions Catholicism* Me: Wow. WOW. I have seen many interpretations on the philosophy of Tolkien and not a single one of them "forgot" to mention his faith. WOW.

Watching this in 2021 after the Rise of Skywalker... we didn't only get a 4th death star, but hundreds of them in the form of the Sidious' fleet

Well said, I've always had trouble finding the words to describe the nostalgic feeling LotR gave me as a youngster. The way the ruins of ancient civilizations in Tolkien's world sparked a longing for grander times, the way it even gave me chills as that eery background music played at the beginning...this video helped understand what it was about LotR that made it so interesting.

Seems like an interpetation of Estel may be the second coming.

Please make a Video about Steins Gate.It’s a great series about fate.

Catholicism: elista Wisecrack: l ve never met this man before in my life.

He lost his mother really young and his dad too. That I think shaped his world view.

I saw the film they made about his life. It hurt my heart the tragedy he endured

3:19 I like how there are no captions for this section because you can't understand what in gods name Tolkien is trying to say...

Perhaps Tolkien's view of history is pessimistic, but his history extends all the way the the creation of the universe. Just as our own universe in Tolkien's entropy is the driving function of all things. All life will end, all stars will die, everything good will end, and all substance and energy will become diffuse, random, and chaos. However, just like our universe entropy is the driving force to produce all that is good to begin with, as the transfer of energy from low to high (for Tolkien's the eternal clash of the supernatural forces of good and evil, as evil overtakes good) causes eddies of entropy when miracles and goodness can exist, even in an existence doomed to chaos outright.

I think if the title of this video is changed to ‘philosophy of lord of the rings’ it would solve a lot of debates in the comments

This whole thing makes G.R.R Martin's complaint about Tolkien's "black and white characters" appear sophomoric, and unsophisticated. It's interesting to me that - in many ways - Middle Earth is a more profoundly cynical universe than Westeros; and yet it is, in the end, more hopeful, and bright.

At 5:17. I mean, yeah, Tolkien would DEFINITELY think that our technological progress was making us worse as human beings. He had been born in 1892, at the peak of the Belle Epoque, when things in Europe were peaceful and all these new gadgets were making the world a better place. Then in 1914, when he was 22 years old, he was thrown in the trenches of World War I, which shattered whatever optimism he had with human progress. He was definitely part of the "Lost Generation" when he emerged out of that hellhole at 26 years of age--hard-bitten and almost nihilistic. Then he saw the rise of fascism and the Great Depression, and then the horrors of World War II in his 50s, culminating with the Nazi death camps and the atomic bombs dropped on Japan. His whole adult life Tolkien was seeing civilization destroy itself with more advanced weapons and technology. Clearly this would make him deeply pessimistic about the "progress of history" in general.

Tolkien's entropic view of history fits in very well with Nordic/Danish philosophic views pre-conversion to Christianity. The world will continue to decay from the great works of Rome until the days of Ragnarok.

They probably could've touched a bit on Tolkien's Christian and/or religious influences, but to say it was hugely central may be a bit of an overstatement - Didn't JRR chastise/criticise CS Lewis for example for being too overtly Christian in his themes and tones in the Narnia series? Like I said, they could've touched on faith playing a part, but the exact level of centrality of faith to Tolkien is up for debate I suppose

How about the philosophy of George RR Martin

Great video! Thanks Wisecrack!

Thank you for this video, got many goosebumps remembering when I read the books and how deep Tolkien is. Would you guys please consider doing a Robert E Howard one? He kinda has similar philosophy and motivation in writing like Tolkien.

I hate the fact that I've come to take your content for granted and not appreciate every time how deeply researched and thoughtful it is amidst an Internet full of shit. I can't express how much I've learned since discovering the channel. please never stop

I mean, if you fought in WW1 only to live through the Great Depression and WW2, you'd be a pessimist too.

Philosophy of bookworm adventures deluxe?

This is probably my favorite Wisecrack video!

I mean there are some truths behind sayings like "if you do not learn from history, you're doomed to repeat it" and we haven't exactly been a bunch of quick learners of history, now have we?