I feel like Pearson, Mary-Beth, and Tilly were all associated with the gang but weren't involved in gang activity to the same extent as Dutch, John, Arthur, etc. and thats why they're allowed to live peacefully.
Yup, they honestly didn't do too much in the story and were probably allowed to live as such after exchanging info, or were just considered too unimportant.
I feel like it’s possible they stopped going after them due to them all going their own ways and the gang ended up being non existent. There was nothing to generally stop. They were only out for Dutch, Hosea, John, Arthur and just the gunmen. I’m not 100% sure that’s valid enough but you’re definitely making a point
Not sure if this is a “plot hole”, but this always confused me… A big deal is made about when Dutch threw Bronte to the crocodile. Everyone was so horrified that he had the audacity to do something so horrible. But just 2 minutes earlier the gang is busy murdering an entire mansion full of people. All the killing and murdering throughout the game, but somehow feeding Bronte to a croc was where everyone drew the line?!!
You forgot that they may be killers themselves and all but Dutch was supposedly their guiding light. A teacher...who was not seen as a vindictive person. The likes of Charles for example literally has stated that early in the story. They are basically killers despite of what Dutch is supposedly preaching. Then even John claims a similar thing, in Kieran's mission chapter 2 on the ride. "You (O'Driscolls) are sneak thiefs and killers, Dutch is more like a teacher." The gang was clearly misled and influenced by Dutch visions and preaches. Sure they are contradicting themselves on almost every act of theirs overall but they were "brainwashed" delusional enough to claim that they differ from the likes of other gangs like O'Driscoll's. But in reality...practically and pragmatically they are pretty much the same. Pure malicious , criminals who are out there to survive and fight the law and nature. These very words comes from Kieran who pointed that out by observing them in captivity. No matter if they beg to differ and self proclaim themselves as Criminals with Morals. Thats what Dutch is...a wannabe moral and wise person who is only making a fool on himself because his nature (greed) is what keeps him going. No matter if he could stop...he wouldn't. He is a doomed outlaw for life...for the thrill of it. His main motivation, hatred for civilisation and greed. Which both were finally exposed when he killed Bronte the way he did. Until that moment, Dutch was a "wise godfather", but his colours was shown. And now they pretty much all know...he is either not the same, or he always was like this... Vindictive, Nasty and Thorough. (Greedy too but from their perspective it is not obvious since it is claimed as a collective "need" to make a new possible life...the promised dream and ideal plan. The perfect circumstances...big score and move somewhere really new and just stop, settle down finally. But it was clearly a lie. False promise.) Now if you were a keen observed you probably noticed that the words i used to describe Dutch had a capitalized initial letter but why? Thorough, Nasty and Vindictive. If you ever noticed anyone using these words and in a positive light its Micah. Right in chapter Guarma. Where it is a chapter that basically the curtain has fallen and every character involved is forced to come out with their true nature under heavy pressure. A state of legit war. Insurrection. And Micah even though an enemy admired Fussar just because of these traits that he had. Foreshadowing that anyone like him (Fussar-Dutch) is gonna be a favourable friend of Micah's. Somewhat fortunately Dutch in comparison to Micah and Fussar is a person who might be evil by nature but tries to fight it and be a better man. But he is not capable of doing so, which leads him in a very tragic path. He is a tragic and well written character but a bad character nonetheless. Its like Kratos's redemption in God of War 2018 and Ragnarok gone wrong. He fails...and losses everything he cares in his life...leading him to a tragic end.
Yeah you're right because he was just disposing of evidence. It also makes the least amount of sense for John to say something since it WAS HIS SON who was kidnapped, you'd think he would be happy to see the man responsible for it suffer .
i think abigal saying "Get up i am married to you" is similar to how the gang thought, even though they never witnessed an official wedding, they just considered john and abigail married
Another little thing is that javier says if you capture him alive in rdr1 that “I hope you and your children rot in hell” how could javier knew he had a daughter that died. or either he just assumed in the time that passed John had another kid or was just his wording. You could look into it if you want but it can be explained
Another one is the fact the wreck of the serendipity appears in Red dead 1 yet it doesn't in Red dead 2 and Ross mentions that it's been a criminal hideout for years and it looks like it's been there years yet it isn't in Red dead 2. So unless it sunk,and was put there inbetween 1907 and 1911 but it looks like it's been there alot longer. Might of been removed to try avoid speculation that it was the same ferry from the blackwater job
My take on the theory about lesser known gang members going to retrieve the Blackwater money is that Blackwater went into total lockdown. Nobody is allowed in or out except food supplies, and the surrounding Great Plains area is heavily patrolled. Pretty sure this is why Arthur can't go near Blackwater aswell.
ive always felt the biggest plot hot was john and abigails daughter who at this point must have been born and died in the three years between rdr2 and 1
1: I think hunting down a group of people is easier then individuals and there is no point of going after a cock and a few petty theft and the others might have left the country so they can’t go get them or know where they are especially when at the time Dutch was still out there. 2: I think that John and Abigail were married within the gang but just not legally. 3: they could have waited until they know roughly where the last of the gangs gunslinger were and then get John so they do it in one clean sweep. 4: they could have thought it would be a lot easier to get the gang to turn on Dutch then to walk into a camp of people that can kill whole army’s without breaking a sweat. 5: I think it’s stated somewhere or said that they were going to hit the fairy and then run because they were camping so close to town. But that’s just my way of filling the plot holes. Anyway good video
Lol the casual manner in which John threatens to Shoot archer in the head always makes me chuckle. Archer is so bored with his life and job he is just like "please do it..."
I think Pearson, Mary-Beth and Tilly were left because they were never any real enforcers. They rode and worked for the gang, but never really committed any crimes, so letting them go while going after the criminals who robbed and murdered made sense. Dutch knowing that John married Abigail could simply be him still keeping eyes or atleast somewhat hearing about it. He does know John is alive, so having some hymn of what's going on there makes sense. Pinkertons taking Marston all that time later could have to do with them collecting intel on the former gang members beforehand. From my understanding, John is not the person that tracks down Bill. It could also be that they need to collect resources or get approvals for such a thing, as they are basically goverment agencies at this point. Not sending a less recognizable gang member to Blackwater was probably done for multiple reasons. One, they don't know if that gang member would just leave with the fortune. And two, the town was overrun by Pinkertons. They probably search every wagon and person going in and out.
One big hole I thought of about Micah being the rat. If he was the rat post-Guarma, why was he present at Lakay when Milton’s men fired a ton at them? Why did he not come out and tell Milton & Ross in Annesburg when they were just behind those boxes from them that Arthur & Dutch were there? Also Milton says it was only after Guarma there was a rat, then how come in the newspaper after the Scarlett Meadows train robbery, it actually states that the law was tipped off. And in Saint Denis the Pinkertons were on them like clock work?! Good vid btw 👍
Good points. But it makes sense the law was on them in Saint Denis because they just shot up the trolley station and Bronte mansion so law know they were in the area
@@jamalclark4846 Yeah there’s that but equally Hosea and Abigail made that distraction a short distance away to think the issue was there, yet they seemingly knew they were actually hitting up the bank. Bit suspicious.
I think the reason he doesn't give Dutch and Arthur over to Milton at Annesburg is because Micah was never loyal to the Pinkertons, he gave them as little as he could to keep them happy, and he says exactly why himself: "I'm a survivor."
You could see though they were annoyed at how they couldn’t take the gang down and Micah being a survivor surely woulda taken that golden chance to cash out big time ratting out Dutch and Arthur, the 2 most wanted in the gang probably with Hosea gone.
Dutch calling John and Abigail married could be explained by most of the gang referring to them as married, plus they called themselves married long before they made it official.
Another plothole similar to how could Dutch know John and Abigail were married,how did Javier also know that John had a farm and was married? They hadn't seen each other in 12 years yet he still somehow knew John had a farm because he tells John to 'Go back to your farm John' and he also says ' I hope your wife and children rot in hell'
Because as Abigail says in the epilogue, they already are married in in the sense that they are together and have a child, Abigail already considered them married when they were in the gang so everyone else did aswell, john just wanted to make it official legally in the epilogue
Biggest plot hole IMHO!!! Dutch complaining that if they just had $10,000! Meanwhile Arthur is sitting on up to 20k and more that just.... Disappears! Poof!
Great video as always Phil. I always assumed the remaining members were less ‘dangerous’ than others and the Pinkertons knew that one way or another. They weren’t the exact criminals the others were and were more guilty by association and it was probably deemed a waste of resources to track down the ‘lesser’ gang members. My own head scratching plot-hole was wondering how Ross knew who killed Micah (finding Micah at Hagen was already strange) and how he was able to track John (and not the others) to Beecher’s Hope after 8 years. After all that time, it could’ve been anyone. It could’ve been Dutch himself who killed Micah.
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Honestly I bet Edgar Ross was talking to Dutch trying to get him to surrender for those 3 years and he probably slipped up and said John and his wife. That would be my fix to that plot hole
John had an unformal wedding when he was in the gang thats what dutch was referring to And the gang members you mentioned werent problems neither was john thats why they let him go for a few years but when failing to catch bill javier and dutch they forced john to help them because he knew more abt them
1. I’d say they just focused on the dangerous gang members 2. Slight hole but Dutch keeping tabs or hearing of John being married doesn’t seem out of the ordinary. Or he could have just been speaking in general terms like a common law wife. 3. Legit plot hole 4. There are multiple times the pinkertons knew the gang’s location. The only thing I could think of is that they wanted to get Van Der Linde alone rather than facing the entire gang. 4. Agreed
I always wonder about how rdr1 starts, John gets off a ferry in blackwater but where was that ferry coming from? Only thing I could think of is John was arrested and sent to sisika for a few years then got picked up by Edgar and took a ferry from Saint Denis to blackwater
I challenge anyone on rdr theory. My opinions on your plot holes (ftr, the series has plenty. I’m not claiming it’s perfect lol) 1. The only gang members the cops (I’ll shorten it to “cops” given the org change through the series) continue to pursue were the ones that continued to outlaw and/or had too big of a name. It would not be difficult to slip into anonymity during this time. Historically what brought people down was rats/egos (much like the story here). Everyone that was low profile (small crimes or unknown) and stopped being outlaws slipped off fine. These are not competent cops. John was “Rip Van Winkle” to them despite being with the gang for decades up until he was captured in Saint Denis. John then buys the ranch in his name near Blackwater and it still takes them years to track him down. 2. Dutch can simply be assuming they married, like Sadie even mentioned she assumed they were already married. Also, Dutch basically paid for the wedding and stayed near them for the remaining years. Wouldn’t be a big leap he could have found out. 3. No reason to believe Ross waited 4 years. The ending credits sequence could be showing the 4 year gap it took for them to track John down, or at least a good chunk of it. Also, they wanted to use John rather than catch him. So finding him with that nod scene and then waiting for an opportunity to maximize his use would make sense. Mostly though, no reason to believe the entirety of the 4 year gap is between the nod end credits scene and the beginning of RDR1. I always found it interesting knowing the geography East of Blackwater after rdr2, that John is getting off a boat with the cops in the beginning. Where did this boat come from? I’m sure Rs didn’t know where they made the opening scene years ago, but there is a possible story there as to when/why/how/where they picked up John to begin their rdr1 plan. I like to think he got grabbed in Rhodes or Saint Denis, just give the geography. 4. Not only why didn’t they follow Arthur, why would they not already know where camp is (like literally 100ft behind them during the scene, lol)? The easy take is simply that Milton is trying to bring the gang down without confrontation at this point. If he flips someone to get Dutch, it’s all he cares about at this time. I personally have a theory that makes sense of this ineptitude and many others of the Pinks during rdr2. But it’s a bit bigger than necessary to explain this plot hole. As the story progresses, so does the Pink’s level of aggression. 5. Could argue Dutch didn’t send lesser known members simply because of the risk and Dutch and the gang would not know who the Pinks know and who they do not know of. As best they know the Pinks know all of them. I’d argue it’s due to Dutch’s character. His entire ego is based around having the people follow him indefinitely. Chasing the dream of freedom forever. You can’t actually obtain it, because then they won’t need you (you = Dutch). When Dutch loses the gang he’s never the same again. Even in rdr1 with his shitty gang, he’s not half what he once was. Old dog, no new tricks. Ps: the biggest plot hole imo that I don’t see anyone bring up (although I have a theory) is that if Micah was a rat since they got back from Guarma, and the “social call” with Cornwall In Annesburg was mostly his idea…how does this add up with Milton describing Micah and these actions as being a “good boy”? My explanation is not the weak “Micah wasn’t a rat/Milton was lying” btw.
I think the reason Dutch never sent Pearson or the girls to get the Blackwater money is because it's hidden someplace where retrieving it would attract too much attention due to the town being locked down and swarming with Penkertons. Prior to 1907, John and Abigail had what's called a common-law marriage. They lived together and presented themselves to others as "married," but had no license (were marriage licenses a thing in the late 1800s?) or formal ceremony.
I don't really think many of these are that hard to understand tbh. Dutch asked how Abigail was and John basically confirmed they were still together with his response so given that it had been over 10 years I think anyone would assume they had gotten married by then. Even if they were officially married most people would just call a couple of 20 years married because they might as well be at that point. As for the agents waiting the 4 years , they already took 8 years at that point to find his trail so i don't think another couple of years to gather more Intel and evidence and to stake out the ranch is hard to believe. Police work takes a long time and Investifwtions are slow and tedious. There's no reason why they would be In a rush to initiate their grand plan if they knew exactly where John was and that he likely wasn't gonna leave and even if he did catch on and try to leave again they probably had agents on every corner of that area making sure she couldn't.
4:47 Dutch, Bill and Javier were not posing any problem that a politician would benefit in good PR from solving until they formed their new gangs. In John's case, it likely would have been unsettling to the public to know that a member of Dutch's gang was living among them openly.
1. They Wouldn't of had any charges against them 2. They Were Already Married just not by law / In front of god 3. They Would've had to have found Javier, bill and Dutch first and then find the perfect time to capture john 4. The camp members would have shot them 5. Because nobody was allowed in blackwater / Great plains , it was on lockdown
Pearson, Tilly etc. weren't active members of the gang. The Pinkertons didn't follow Arthur because it was just the 2 of them and we see what happens when they did. Dutch could of heard about John and Abigail getting married through the grapevine. Dutch didn't want to go back for the money because it was never about the money, he wanted to continue to fight.
The gang members who get left alone are members who weren’t a threat with Dutch gone, and ultimately I think they only wanted the gunslingers. Abigail mentions already being “married” to John so that’s probably what Dutch is referring to. I always assume they were waiting for John to mess up to take him out but he didn’t so they used him to get the other three. Following Arthur back to camp would’ve caused a lot of death nobody would’ve wanted. Arthur wasn’t part of the ferry job either but got recognized as part of Dutch’s gang by a civilian so I think the pinkertons knew who was in the gang by that point.
There is a random encounter with a guy who escaped from jail and has shackles around his feet. Arthur shoots the chains and the guy informs you of a rich couple that live in the Grizzli mountains. Was he talking about Sadie?
I don't really consider any of those plot holes. The story is left open in many areas and the player really only sees it through the eyes of Arthur and John. Could be many unsaid reason that answer all these questions. Telling the story through Ross or Dutch's point of view could answer these questions and leave other questions unanswered for instance. Great video though, this game generates so many questions and theories. I have faith the writers could address all the points mentioned. You do have to have faith after all.
@@LiberatedMind1 Plot hole has a negative connotation that does not apply to these unanswered questions IMO. None of these make the story telling bad or need to be explained to further the narrative. A plot hole would just not make any sense or have a possible answer that could justify it.
@@LiberatedMind1 1. an inconsistency in the narrative or character development of a book, film, television show, etc.: "there are a few plot holes and some moments of serious implausibility"
@@adamjohnson672 "A plot hole is an unexplained gap between the pretense of one plot point and the contradicting result of another." Another definition.
To this day the most wasted potential of rdr2 I have ever seen is in the cutscene where John is proposing and Abigail is like are you serious? And he says it would me me happy. He could've said "It would mean a lot to me" and that would come full circle to when arthur saved his life and gave him the chance to run and be with Abigail in the end. He uttered those exact words to him and I've always wished he'd have said that in return to Abigail as a nod to his old friend and the man who allowed him to be on that little boat in the first place.
The biggest one in my opinion that I cannot believe they messed up on was the McFarland ranch barn ... Bonnie clearly says in like the first few minutes of the game "pa built it when I was just a little girl" and yet it's not built when she's already a young adult. Wtf. I know it's not a huge deal but you'd think with all the attention to detail and the clear attention to dialogue they paid when making the second game they would have caught that one. There are references in red dead 2 to the smallest and insignificant details in the first game that only veteran players are able to notice so that one isn't even as minor in comparison to some of those. So to someone like me it kinda drives me crazy lmao
I feel like these aren't really plot holes, they can be very reasonably explained. 1. The remaining gang members weren't the priority. The Pinkertons went after the enforcers of the gang, the people who were the ones known for committing the massive crimes and robberies in the area. Characters like Tilly and Mary Beth were mostly either passive or committing petty theft at worst. Pearson was mostly just the gang's cook. After the gang dissolved, they didn't even commit any notable crimes, whereas Bill, Javier, Dutch and Micah did. No reason to have a manhunt for them. 2. John and Abigail were unofficially married throughout the entirety of Red Dead 2. Even Abigail says it in the clip you showed, "Get up, I am married to you." It wasn't an official legal marriage until the epilogue, but they considered each other husband and wife throughout Red Dead 2, so of course Dutch would consider them married as well. Hell, the reason they probably weren't officially married was because of their outlaw status making it hard to do so. 3. This one is definitely the most plausible as a plot hole, it does seem odd that Ross waited for years, but it's not unreasonable for Ross to consider that John wasn't going anywhere and he could keep him in his pocket until he needed him. I'd imagine he found John pretty quickly, but took a while to track down Bill, Javier and Dutch, and wanted to wait to use John for when that was figured out. 4. Agent Milton was smart enough to not enter a camp of over a dozen killers with just a group of 2. If he just followed Arthur back, Arthur could've noticed he was being followed at any time and either misdirect them, or lead them to a camp of people who would shoot them in an instant. Plus, even if he didn't go in, they would move camp the second they got the chance. Milton wanted to keep them in the general area he knew they were hiding in. 5. Dutch was very paranoid about the money, he made that very obvious. It was a lot of money and Dutch wanted to make sure he got that. It's possible that he didn't fully trust anyone that could actually get into Blackwater to bring back the money, like Trelawney for example. Either that, or he likely considered the money stash could've been already discovered by the Pinkertons and is being used as a trap. Dutch and Hosea probably considered every possibility and just determined that it was incredibly too risky to get the money in any way, and decided to leave it until everything in Blackwater cooled down. Although they're interesting talking points, I don't think they can be considered plotholes if you can very reasonably explain them away using context clues from around the story.
I don’t know if this is a “plot hole” but something that always seemed sketchy- Why does Bill Williamson retreat down to Mexico to seek out Javier Escuella? The two were far from friends during their time together in the gang. I don’t know why Javier would do anything for Bill, especially because aiding Bill brings unwanted attention from John to himself. Also, by the time Bill retreats down to Mexico his gang has been defeated and disbanded. He didn’t have much to offer Colonel Allende other than serving as a bodyguard, of which Allende had plenty of. Overall the whole plot point of Bill going down to Mexico doesn’t seem to make much sense.
5:20 i imagine its case building, they are no longer pinkertons that get paid to just show up and lay down law, in Rdr1 they are an investigation bureau, they need files and documents on known gang members and thier whereabouts and any leads, and police work is 90% paper work and case filling, and then they get john to do all the hard work as since they are law men and dont fit in with the life and mindset john and his former brothers have, only john could have ever tracked down his former bothers, but he needed to know where to look first, which is why they send him to fort mercer in Rdr1. So reasonably maybe that would take a long time maybe even 4 years, especially with how ross and fordham dont seem exactly urgent to find Dutch and his old gang immediately.
This video is kinda wack tbh. All ur points can be explained. Also you saying why were Mary and the others able to get away free but then you say the Pinkerton don’t know many members and those members could go to black water to get the funds.
