The Politics of Loving the Bad Guy 

Had to mute the "I wanna be bad" part because YT decided a week later to claim it XD. I apologize.

I think one of the most important things that often gets overlooked in discourse over well written bad characters is no matter how much fun it is to watch them, no matter how entertaining they are, they were never meant to be modeled. They are a warning, not a role model. And villains who are relatable I think are all the more important. It let's us see what "too far" in our own ideology and morals looks like. Let's us explore methods that *don't* work. We can 100% empathize with Kill Monger and his driving force and still think burning all the heart shaped herb (while a behavior produced from grief, anger, and an extremely destructive military training) was /not the right way/ to do things.

Female villains always draw me in because growing up I was never allowed to be angry or defend myself even when people (usually boys) wronged me, I think a lot of women experienced that growing up so it’s somehow gratifying to see these women act out in really extreme ways as a response to what happened. Even though you I don’t excuse or support their actions it’s somehow cathartic to see characters like Carmilla from Castlevania or to an extent Azula become incarnations of the trauma that being put in certain confines causes you.

One of the things that I really love about the Black Panther movies is that they give us complex and compelling villains that are POC. As a black woman and long time villian f*cker it can be frustrating that the interesting villains are almost always white. Killmonger and Namor are both hugely popular with MCU fans to the point that people will argue that they aren’t even villians. I disagree, but it is kind of cool seeing them get the Draco in leather pants treatment that a character like Loki gets. Seeing poc heroes is great but I love that we are entering a time when poc are allowed to be “problematic”.

If loving Villanelle from Killing Eve is wrong, then I don't wanna be right

Listen; when I was in middle school I had the biggest crush on Azula, I never fully got over it.

That tired "Sis we are aware" YUP I think what I hate is the assumption that we don't know the character we're a fan of

hearing "draco in leather pants" trope for the first time in YEARS makes me immediately feel very old.

i think hannibal really changed my perspective on the whole loving a villain discourse 'cause like if i can love a character who's a cannibal murderer abuser manipulator because he's well written and just really cool without trivializing any of those things in real life than so can other people with like a fictional guy who's bad to women or something idk

“Vegeta is a war criminal” just unlocked something deep in my soul and mind. I’m forever changed.

I think the other part of how the criticism of liking villains has really blown up is the fact that in the last several years, people have gotten a very close-up look at what villainy looks like when the mask comes off in the real world, and it is anything but attractive, fascinating or nuanced- Villains in the real life don't really have grandiose or complex plans, and are exceedingly petty, short-sighted, and vile down to the roots without any substantial redeeming quality or packaged with some kind of sympathetic motivation for the harm they callously or zealously inflict on other people.

"Twitter is not all discourse" YEAH. When I stopped talking about fandom online my life sincerely improved. Even the bad faith readers on Tumblr can do so much to dampen your desire to engage with a work. For me I can't love a text unless I'm critically digging in

what i’ve realized about myself recently, as someone who’s always loved villains from birth (would literally cry as a four year old when randall from monsters inc got his LMAO), is that shipping to me doesn’t mean “i want to see these characters become better and live happily ever after,” though that can definitely be it sometimes. it’s just about exploring a dynamic for me. sometimes i want to see a relationship play out between two toxic, compelling characters then crash and burn. make! him! worse!!!!

"Landing facedown in a wading pool of discourse" is such an evocative line, goddamn.

Girl, I'm glad you put Namor in the thumbnail because that man has me in a chokehold!! I need a full length movie about him and Talokan ASAP.

“Gaston was right. Thinking is annoying. Take it back, god.” you’re brilliant and I will now be quoting this until the end of time 😄

Authentic old person here, who used to participate in community roleplay based on Anne Rice's vampires back when the internet was still Usenet and majordomo mailing lists (look those up if unfamiliar, history is important!). Lestat de Lioncourt is every bit the monster you described from the tv show (I haven't watched it) and then some. It's interesting that on the one hand, I was very much into the Lestat/Louis ship myself when I was in my early 20s, but I also knew that Lestat was the epitome of _toxic._ The second novel in the series, _The Vampire Lestat,_ is told from his point of view. One overall theme to his story is that there was a reason (or often, an excuse) behind every terrible thing he had ever done. This is one of his defining traits throughout the series. It's been many years, but one specific example that has stuck with me: In a later story ( _Tale of the Body Thief_ ), Lestat swaps bodies with a mortal man and one of his first acts in this body is to rape the woman who was helping him. He feels soooo guilty and torn up over what he's done... but just as always, blames human weakness or hormones or something. It's never about his own lack of character or empathy. So, yeah. This is the dude people are saying would never beat his beloved Louis nearly to death? Maybe they don't understand the concept of the *unreliable narrator.* Or maybe they're just very young and don't want a touch of realism to mess with their idealized romantic fantasy in that way. 🤷

For a long time I've felt that in the race to not seem racist or problematic, so much media make their POC characters bland as hell. They don't get the complicated backgrounds, the juicy personalities. They're designed to fade into the background while the white characters get all the good stuff. When they're bland, they have nowhere to go, no ARC, they just exist to be spice.

I feel like there's a whole ass video about how the HP fandom made something good out of a terrible text, and the thing that most of them are nostalgic for is not even the original text, but the fanon version of it.

"They just don't give a fuck. They don't have respectability politics, they can be free. And sometimes I think I'm just drawn to the freedom of what it means to be bad; to be free of guilt" omg, I think you hit the nail on the head of why sometimes villains appeal to me. As someone who lives with guilt all my life, I really feel this... Also, I love how you managed to articulate when Draco Malfoy got hot XD Its so true tho!!!! That movie where they changed up his hair, I was like "wait a min-"

It's tragic how a lot of leftist content nowadays has to go through these media literacy 101 pieces (see also: James Somerton/FD Signifier) because the lack of media literacy prevents us from having better/more mature/more impactful conversations about intersectional content in pop-culture and culture at large.

I've recently seen a video where the creator claimed that villain fuckers and are one step away from people who are attracted to real life killers (such as Ted Bundy) and that their enjoyment of villains reflects badly on their morals. It's great seeing people who are actually literate when it comes to media and how people interact with art.

The phantom, "its kinda problematic, right? He kidnaps her?" Exhaustion is so real. There's a tumblr post about someone's dad coming along to their academic conference, and being at a panel talking about lovecraft racism, and the dad, wanting to contribute, is like, oh! That one where his wife is actually not human, but an ape! And the whole room going quiet because that's been Established, is kinda the vibe I get from that? I'll see if I can find the post

When there was that A:TLA netflix resurgence, tumblr was full of people shipping Zuko and Sokka as these carefree bros in love while people were also saying you shouldn't ship Zuko and Katara because he's her oppressor. Like... is it that Sokka's humour makes them forget he also had his family and culture attacked? Or do we only expect women to be vigilant in assessing a lover's moral standing?

I'll just say, because I wish I could explain villainy as great as you can, that HOUSE OF THE DRAGON, at the very least, felt like a welcome return to the moral ambiguity of GRR Martin's books, as opposed to "Danny be bad, now, because we want to stop this show as soon as possible!"

YO! I wished Carmilla would bite me. I based an entire D&D campaign around her character.

I fell off OUaT after season 1, and I never saw the writers' comments about Regina and the Huntsman. AND WOW. How did they NOT know that they were writing non-consent??? There are red flags, and then there are RED FLAGS. 🚩🚩🚩

I also think there is something to be said about being part of a marginalized group who has been historically seen and portrayed in media in a villanous way, and therefore being able to relate to some specific villanous archetypes

Addendum: I would define "nice" as inoffensive, polite, and considerate, "kind" as compassionate, gentle, and considerate, and "good" as just, equitable, ultimately constructive, and the right thing to do. I would define "evil" as destructive, unjust, merciless, deceptive, self-serving, unloving, and often vindictive.

a lot of people see shipping as "i like them together and i think their relationship is good" when it can be "i like together, i think seeing them be awful to each other is funny."

As someone who enjoys Reylo (mostly in terms of AU fanfics), I completely agree that it side lined 33:58 every other character, especially Finn. None of those other characters were explored enough in canon and often don’t get as much attention in fan circles (not always, I have read some great Finnrey, romantic and more sibling based in some Reylo fanfics, Finn/Poe, Finn/Rose, and Finn/Poe/Rose that do such a great job in expanding their characterizations that the sequel movies -especially that trash fire of a third movie- failed to do). The Lego Star Wars Specials have done more service to Finn (in confirming that he is Force sensitive and is training with Rey) than the big budget movies and those are often waved from being canon and instead seen as canon adjacent.

Disney did John Boyega a gross disservice with the Star Wars sequels. Finn had so much potential in that first movie. And then they sidelined him and made him comic relief to make room for Reylo in the second movie. And then in the third movie it honestly feels like he's only there due to contractual obligations.

Love this video! Also would like to add that Lestat arguably coerced Louis into becoming a vampire with him, given that he mentally torments him and kills two people in front of Louis, which then begs the question of whether or not Louis would have been safely able to say no. + He is cruel to Claudia as a way of taking out his resentment against Louis.

It's funny how the trope is named "Draco in leather pants, because as someone who is really into Our Flag Means Death, Izzy Hands is a character that centers a lot of discourse, and I think his leather pants really played into the how popular his character became. Even the actor who portrays him says the fans love how he looks in leather.

This video takes me back to the time my very religious grandparents took my cousins and I to see Princess & the Frog. After the movie ended I went on about how I love Dr. Facilier and his scenes, and my grandpa low key scolded me because “you’re not supposed to like the villain”. 6 year old me was so thrown off by that😂 I think it’s kinda weird how some people conflate finding a bad guy intriguing and interesting, with completely agreeing with their actions. But it’s understandable depending on the character. I will ALWAYS look at Homelander stans with a glaring side eye

I felt so seen with this video. I am a black bisexual leftist and one of my absolute favorite characters on television is Homelander. I feel no shame about it. He’s an exceptionally acted, well-written, hilarious, downright evil character. He clearly represents white patriarchal imperialism and terror and I absolutely love him for that. He is deeply fascinating to me, even though he would eliminate me simply for existing.

I think a big thing that people struggle with is the concept that a person who has done horrible things can genuinely change and want to be a better person without meaning they are forgiven or that everything they did is now erased. I think that's why so many people struggle with characters like Endeavor.

If you like messy characters and relationships, accepting that you like them in part /because/ they're bad and that that doesn't have to change your real life values and behavior, is part of becoming an emotionally mature adult. The more you trust yourself, the more you will be willing to listen to criticism and grow.

I wanted so badly for you to discuss Namor specifically because I think fandom doesn't quite know what to do (surprsingly) with a villain that has an actual sympathetic background and reason for doing what he does. (It's also not lost on me that he's gotten critiqued harsher and more quickly than some yt villains when they were first introduced😒). So to then ship him with Shuri (proudly, I know it's "toxic" but idc), they have an interesting dynamic and actually have things in common being a Black woman and Indigenous man that have gone through similar things with their respective nations. Its compelling enough that watching the breakdown actually hurt lol. It's what I like about the Black Panther movies though, that it's antagonists (I personally don't consider them the villains, that would be yt supremacy and the western countries, especially in BP:WF) are people we can empathize with.

Honestly i love villains. Sometimes its the confidence and their fashion sense, or the complexity and nuance of their character, or the camp diva factor, or that theyre the most entertaining, or that i love to make fun of them or that i love to hate them or multiple of the above a the same time. Irredeemable, redeemable, I just think theyre so fun. Sometimes its deep, sometimes its not deep.

Billy Hargrove is a textbook example of draco in leather pants- I've grown to hate that character, not because he wasn't compelling in canon, but because his fans will turn themselves inside out to justify his racism and abuse towards others. The amount of fics I've seen where they make the little kids who are scared of him into the bad guys somehow to woobify him is ridiculous. I actually really respect the few Billy fans who are just like 'I like him because he's hot and deranged' like okay, I can understand that.

I love Lestat. He's so fucking problematic and god help me if I ever meet someone like him in real life bc I'm pretty sure I would have no defense.

Lestat is basically if Oscar Wilde was a vampire so it's hard not to like him b/c he's fabulous, but also Oscar Wilde was kind of a d*ckhead so a lot of people are understandably turned away from Lestat's horrible, selfish behavior. It's not exactly hard to see how he's an awful person too. But he's just... so.... fabulous. Even in the Cruise performance

As someone who also grew up Catholic, I can relate to your teenage self. Nuanced storytelling took secondary status to a story I could easily identify as morally GOOD or BAD. I'm so thankful for the stories that challenged me and asked me to understand the world as more complicated than I realized.

Catradora deserves so much more grace than it gets

You're so real for putting Lestat on the thumbnail, I love him but he did so many manipulative choices to damage Louis and then pulled him back to him acting in such a selfish, unethical way

"When you've done the work, it can just be so grating to be treated like you haven't done it." Literally sums up my feelings about this topic whole-cloth. It's always assumed in bad faith that you *haven't* done the work, as if you're ignorant and unaware (and often as if you're being willfully ignorant!) and therefore a bad person because of a refusal to acknowledge the "bad". No, I know the difference between good and bad. I will willingly pick apart something I enjoy and point out what's wrong or bad about it--that doesn't mean I can't also still enjoy it. Something else I find important is the fact that fiction is the safest place to explore themes, topics, and characters that are dangerous or unsafe, to be like "what IF the hot evil guy also fell in love with the main character, despite all his crimes??" and not have to worry about the risks. The writer is in control of the narrative and can therefore create and facilitate the most perfect outcome in order to avoid all the potential pitfalls that you can't control IRL. Yes, there are still elements to be wary of (such as romanticizing genuinely horrible things), but if the narrative is derisive towards those bad things, there's really no way to (if someone has learned media literacy, which based on the internet is uh... well) take that the wrong way. You can have a bad guy do bad things and still come out with a situation that doesn't go completely south. I won't say this isn't a complicated and nuanced topic, but I swear some people try to make it more convoluted somehow by trying to simplify it into camps of "good" or "bad".

Honestly thanks so much for making this video! I think that the internet really lacks the nuance you have and everyone should have because of the purity politics you mentioned. I feel like there are debates like this in every fandom, and I wish they could take a chill pill and let people enjoy characters/shows WHILE ALSO acknowledging they problems they have and they affect society. Like a huge example in anime fandom that I have got takes about is about whether it’s ok to like Hisoka from Hunter x Hunter. Tbh, I have no idea what Togashi was going for when he wrote Hisoka the way he did. He’s my favorite character in Hunter x Hunter, but he’s also a very open p*do and a very homo/transphobic caracatured villain due to his looks, his over flamboyance, and his predatory lust after everyone he wants to fight (he gets off to fighting strong opponents). Tbh, I surprised by how many people like him because despite being a disgusting person, he’s one of the most popular anime villains of all time. I feel like the issues of fandom morality you brought up here DEFINITELY apples here cuz he’s such a polarizing character. On one side, there’s insecure people who stan/defend him to the point that they deny he’s a p*do at all (which is obviously messed up cuz it’s wrong to be an apologist for any reason), and on the other side there are people who hate him with all their guts (which is completely understandable) but also think that ANYONE who likes him is automatically a p*do, an apologist, or should at least be put on a watchlist. As a transmasc pan person, I feel like I shouldn’t embrace him as a character I love and wish I was more like (not in the creepy FBI open up way, but in the gender envy free spirited campy way) because of what he represents. Especially with all the queer = groomer rhetoric and anti trans U.S. laws (will definitely affect me as someone who unfortunately lives in Texas), I feel like I’m betraying my community because of envying the queerness of a character who happens to be everything that queer people are accused of being. It’s even harder cuz of my OCD internalizing everything people on the internet say about liking the character. It can be triggering at times. All in all, I feel that liking villains (even the worst of the worst) is complex for me and everyone else, and we should allow people to like these kinds of characters and also have discussions about how they are problematic. I wish people were more open to discussion and nuance instead of assigning morality and buzzword accusations a character that is problematic. We need to listen to marginalized voices (I’m yt so POC fans being talked down to by yt ones when they are trying to explain how a character/show perpetuates racist ideas adds a whole other layer to this) and understand how fiction affects reality, but also realize that marginalized groups are not a monolith. Sorry for the rant guys. I just feel like this video hits home for me and is really important for everyone to hear.

I love enemies to lovers tropes when done right because they go through the "meet me halfway" phase. Which is basically, they both have to get off their high horses or the pre conceived notions of one another to meet each other halfway, and thats where the love begins. Plus they always end up being the most interesting romance in any show

I think Vegeta and Bulma make sense when you consider Bulma just broke up with her first boyfriend. She hooks up with the hottest single guy close to her, and they are not together until Vegeta realizes he loves Trunks. He does not care about her before that. She was a hook up. After that he wants to be a dad, and part of that is being with Bulma. I would definitely enjoy seeing the relationship grow rather than how the time skip just has them fully together, but I think it's important to reconcile that Trunks is basically the reason his parents were anything but a one night stand

I would strongly disagree with Magneto being better as a villain though. Especially with his more recent stuff. Mags is best as a hero. His villain days are an interesting exploration of his mental health, and the nature of heroism though

I think a big part of the criticism of liking villains is people pushing back against others who are woobifying and excusing both villains and problematic protagonists, like what happened with Kylo Ren and Edward Cullen.

honestly, I think a really interesting reflection of this is in pro wrestling (at least, in the old days) - if you are a 'good enough' bad guy or heel, if you can make the fans hate you so much for so long, eventually the fans will grow to respect you and you can end up organically becoming a good guy or babyface. Fritz Von Erich was a hated n*zi heel for years and years before becoming so beloved in his home territory of Dallas that he was able to introduce his sons as babyface wrestlers and the crowds loved and adored the boys. The Von Erich's are even beloved in Israel, weirdly enough!

"Satan was the first Draco in leather pants". What a hook! Also, love the Powerline tee.

"Redemption we-said-it" is a term that I did not realize I needed until just now. Thank you!

felt this on a core level. what is interesting is that time and again i find it very difficult to explain to non-fandom (cough normie) friends what is appealing about villains. i think it has to do with a lack of engagement with the ideas in a piece of work. when you're in fandom, you tend to be more focused on theme/characterization/catharsis. most people however are passive consumers to media, and as such cling on to the simplest conception of characters. in other words, it takes thinking beyond the entertainment, and more about the conversation a text is trying to engage the reader in

Speaking of Death Note, I was super into the fandom from ages like 12-15 and was obsessed with L/Ryuzaki. Who may technically speaking be the "good guy" because he's going against the mass murderer, but, he also, you know, chained himself to a teenage boy, held a woman prisoner in horrific conditions to try getting a confession from her, installed surveillance cameras all over a family's house to try catching the person he'd railroaded into being Kira (even if he was correct), and he was basically a cop. He's still my problematic fave.

The “he kidnaps her” is the phantom equivalent of “person at party too excited to tell you John Lennon hit his wife”

brain short circuiting every time the thumbnail and title abruptly change

i still won’t get over PLL for de-villainising Allison DiLaurentis in the worst way possible. like she literally became the most boring character when she turned into a regular.

I've been having discussions about this with my friends and partner for the last few years! Especially surrounding Kylo Ren, I think fans of him really wanted to see him redeemed because they didn't want to be seen as bad people for liking him. I'm not a Kylo stan whatsoever, but I personally think it would have been so much more interesting for the sequel trilogy if he wasn't redeemed. He's interesting as a villain, and that's okay! Leave it be! I think Chainsaw Man will really challenge people as the anime goes on; I'm all caught up on the manga and I think what makes it so compelling is that none of the characters are especially "good", but you root for them anyway! I really love Makima as a villain and saw someone comment "why do people like Makima? Isn't she like really bad?" And it's like... yeah bud! I like her because she's The Worst and her motives are so interesting! TL;DR, it's okay to like a villain and for them to STAY BAD in the narrative.

You know, it's surprising how many redeemed villains don't struggle with their past actions and the harm they've done. Imagine a post-redemption Zuko having nightmares about all the people he's indirectly or directly killed, for example. Not only would this be more woke or whatever, it's also an untapped gold mine of dramatic storytelling potential.

Loved the video! This conversation reminds me of the Buffy & Spike ship and the divide that happened with fans after the S.A. attempt in season 6.

Listen. Listen listen listen. War criminal + ultimate capitalist girlboss, it works (Also GIRL, with you on Trunks) I think for ME, the problematic ship thing rests on three pillars: am I connecting with the narrative of the relationship, does the text know what it’s doing, AND in the end, when they get together, is one character in a situation of being safe at the pleasure of the other’s desire to indulge them - personally as well, my favourite “I could change them” narrative is when one character isn’t trying to impress the other, but when one character goes “huh, you’re like…right actually, I think I’ve got some wrongheaded ideas about the world” (there’s a Chinese IP called 1000 Autumns whose show version seems to be going hard in this direction in a really compelling way!)

I honestly think you hit the nail on the head, there's something intoxicating about this toxic personality being yours. There's this feeling of "they would destroy everything for me, including me." It's a level of intensity a lot of people encounter and can't fully rationalize when it strikes because it's easy to view it from the outside but while you're inside... it's heady and dangerous and that's exciting in it's own way. Doesn't make it good or bad, it's just emotions going to war with themselves inside of you. We're also used to this almost social disinterest in us as people because it's so easy to connect now that people don't value it the same way they used to. A lot of these "bad guys" see pieces of you others ignore or pretend you'll grow out of. I think I'm just rambling but I loved this video.

Watching two trully horrible people fall in love and get worse bc of it? For me there's nothing better

50:20 I really appreciate you saying this as someone who was abused as a child, I feel really strongly about characters like Endeavor who have done things that remind me of things that I myself have experienced, so if someone were to try to argue that with me it would be an extremely emotionally taxing experience. So just you acknowledging people like me and not invalidating our experiences means a lot to me

Watching you talk about this took me back to me being in the Glee fandom and being a Karofsky stan. The "tired of constantly explaining why you like this problematic character" resonated with me.

In terms of writing stories in fandom, the villains provide a lot more to work with. Conflict is baked in, especially when they're in opposition with another character who *believes* they have the moral high ground. I've written some compelling fics where the villain makes the better point, but is also on their own trajectory of growth and accountability

I really appreciate your content around these topics, I’m working towards unlearning some of the knee-jerk responses I’ve had in the past towards certain ships or content and these really well thought out and nuanced approaches has really helped.

i knew none of those things about the interview with a vampire adaptation, please hold while i go watch all the episodes now

This video was really healing. As someone who is in fandom, I always feel like I am between people who are either hyper critical and puritanical and people who view even the mildest criticism on media as a personal attack.

"...because we live in this reactionary space..." QUEEN. Yes. If this doesn't sum up how our current cultural space doesn't have time for nuance OR the social literacy to see there's a big gap between Zutara shipping and stanning the fash, I don't know what does.

I feel zero guilt that Lestat is my ultimate blorbo. He’s done absolutely everything wrong, ever, and quite frankly I can’t wait for him to fuck up some more.🤷🏽‍♀️

Glad to see someone talking about the discussions surrounding IWTV. It was a really fun and difficult and fascinating couple of weeks of dissection and complicated feelings that I rarely have seen in fandom. I love the show and am very excited to see where they take the rest of the story!

Vegeta is a abusive father mostly from my perspective. He seems to withhold love from his son often. And eventually just beats him up. I love the character but he is a piece of shit in my opinion. again I still love this character.

You've reawakened my 00's tumblr era lust for Loki, oh my godddd

While watching this I was reminded of how in the early parts of The Cruel Prince I was like “lmao how can this guy ever be redeemed” and by the end I was like “OH I SEE, THEYRE BOTH HORRIBLE AND I WANT THEM TO MAKE EACH OTHER SUFFER FOR MY AMUSEMENT”

As soon as you said, "I love Lex Luthor, him and Darkseid ooh" I had to hit the like button. Immediately.

One lesson I’ve learn about navigating discourse is this: If someone listens to my point then I listen to theirs. That may seem obvious but i’ve seen practiced so rarely in fandom discourse. Usually the approach it to make a statement to completely shut down all criticism and debate and don’t get me wrong that can be fun and cathartic but it doesn’t really lead to anything constructive. Example: I love Kylo. I think he’s an interesting, great, tragic character. And by just looking at the films (I have read a lot of extended media) but just looking at the films I still take away a lot of information, nuance and subtext about him (just my opinion). I don’t excuse any of his choices/actions but I empathize with him the way we all do with our fav baddies. But here’s the thing. If I explain to someone why I love that character and pull out all my analysis and subtext readings THEN they have every right to say “I disagree and here’s why…” and I need to listen to them the same way they listened to me. I have had the pleasure of having a few balanced debates like this in person to person interactions and online too. I TOTALLY get why people don’t like Kylo. And I appreciate hearing their opinions the same why I appreciate them listening to mine.

The bit about good faith arguments really reminded me of a former friend I used to have, and why I refuse to engage in complicated discussions on social media lol

See, I was/still am a Hannigram (or murderhusbands for the cultured) shipper. And let me tell you, I reveled in the depravity. I knew that this was the antithesis of a healthy, functional relationship but it was fun to explore because I knew that fiction was a safer place to explore dark themes like therapist abuse and violence and other monstrosities. It was precisely because I knew that it was so toxic that made it so interesting to enjoy. Liking objectively terrible characters (Hannibal's a cannibal for god's sake) is fine insofar as you can understand that these are not people to be emulated or respected.

HOLY SHIT this is the first time ive ever seen someone acknowledge the lack of consent between regina and the hunter in OUAT, it's been such a huge issue for me ever since i rewatched it (...right after having watched jessica jones. you can see how itd be upsetting) and i felt kind of crazy never seeing anyone saying anything about it, so thank you for that

"You can only respond in good faith is if you were approached in good faith" exactly. Thank you.

So true! Your comments about judgement, learning to accept that sometimes you will be made to feel bad about what you like and learning to accept it and not take it personally or take the L, is so true. Fandom circles sometimes become huuuuge hugboxes where no one is allowed to feel uncomfortable/bad/judged and so important conversations are avoided. Or it's the opposite and it's a free-for all with no care for triggers. It should be respected that sometimes we want escapism, and not having our likes dissected in public online spaces, but when we do want to discuss the nuances and discourse, then we should be able to, people who don't want to join the conversation can feel free to avoid, keep scrolling, remove themselves, and it's our responsibility to tag things for people. But yes! Villains are soooo often more interesting, more compelling, more relatable, and better written are the main reasons people love them. Them being hot too? That's icing on the cake. I knew villains could be compelling when I had an interest in Eric the Phantom, Severus Snape, Heathcliff, Dracula, Shego, and others.

This is actually pretty helpful to me as someone who doesn't write problematic fanfiction, but I do write pretty dark stories with morally neutral characters.

Enjoyed the video. My biggest gripe with some people who like villains characters is when they start defending their actions, especially if they defend all of them… Speaking in terms of IWTV situation, so many Lestat stans defend his actions too no end while attacking characters like Claudia… When we tried to say “hey you can still like him but don’t defend his actions”, they choose to ignore that while being blatantly rude to black people who aren’t comfortable with how he treats Claudia and Louis. I like Lestat as a villain but I would never defend him. I definitely got some villains I love DOWN but you gotta acknowledge their flaws too if you truly like them.

the way regina mills had a chokehold on the queer community

What i find difficult about loving villains in fandom is that everyone will bend over backwards to defend the actions of the villains that certainly don’t deserve it (Magneto deserves all the love he’s an antihero he did nothing wrong). Like I’m done with ppl woobifying villains. And that honestly makes me dislike the villain. Like i start all excited for new villains and then all the woobifying happens and I’m bummed out. Can’t i love a villain FOR BEING A VILLAIN? Honestly your video was great and refreshing.

One thing I've found odd is the contradictory attitude of rooting for villains because they are underdogs but many villains are anything but. The Empire, Jafar, Cruella, David Xanatos etc.

30:07 "people are so concerned with being seen as racist, problematic," that they don't really care if it's actually what they are being. I was so sure that would be how the sentence was gonna end! and the actual sentence you went for is better, definitely more empathetic and understanding to people who have that fear. but damn if it doesn't have a grain of truth. so often people just don't wanna hear they might be doing something bad bc they feel like it make them look bad. like, being told your actions are bad doesn't make you look bad, ignoring that your actions are bad does.

I'm aro/ace, so I feel like I'm learning the Deep Secrets of other people, haha. Thanks for the video, as always.

As a Reylo, I totally agree with that bit about how the problem was the ST pushing characters like Finn and Rose down in favor of centralizing Kylo/Ben and Rey. Like, one of my long term friends I made in Reylo fandom who is a black woman (which, I specifically sought out fans of color and such to follow in December 2015/January 2016 bc I recognized that there are people who will be into my ship for shitty reasons, so I worked to head that off early) and she will happily go into rants about Finn’s treatment in between loving Reylo still (and also lament with me how little Finnlo content we get on our tiny canoe of a ship). Like, its 100% possible to have criticism of one’s favorite media. It’s just difficult to do when so much criticism in fandom is “okay but this is bad and you should feel bad for liking it.” It’s exhausting.

I think my problem with (some!) villain lovers is the unwillingness to engage in more than a second of thought about their faves and why someone might dislike them, instead minimizing or downright ignoring the weight of their actions. I had someone accuse me of being the ‘moral police’ for disliking a certain villain and I wanted to laugh because I have my own roster of morally questionable dudes I absolutely love. That person seemed to skew towards “any criticism of the thing I like reflects on me and therefore cannot be allowed” and the lack of nuance is frustrating to me. What can I say, I’m an academic and I love a good discussion 😂

I was just playing Mass Effect Amdromeda and I was going to romance Jaal but then Reyes Vidal shows up. Despite all the red flags and terrible actions I still romanced him.I had to question myself after that.

Jumping in here again. But that thing you said about "liking something that you don't often get to see in real life," that deeply resonated with me. I think this is something as well people ignore about fandom, the idea that some people who engage in problematic ships and write those kinds of romances do so as a cathartic way to have something that their real life lacks. When I got out of my extremely abusive relationship, I engaged in stories and fandom that took extremely abusive relationships and elevated them to eventually working out, to being healthy and loving. This was deeply cathartic for me. I had been in my abusive relationship for a year, and sometimes I could only fixate on all that wasted time. What was it even for? I have better answers for that now, but part of that journey was indulging in the brief fantasy that it had all worked out, that all that time and pain had not been wasted, but led to something beautiful. That the work was worth it. Difficult stories are a way to practice extreme emotions in a relatively safe space, to teach us about ourselves and our own emotional capacity for growth and change. To exercise and exorcise emotions and feelings and experiences that we cannot reach for in our daily life practically, and help bring us closer to our more complete selves.

This was a really interesting deep dive. When talking about existing in a leftist comunity where most understand you know the "problematic stuff". I was thinking about some situations I find myself in. Ireally enjoy twilight but somehow I end up having to introduce it with all the disclaimers even with people that know I've been a hardcore feminist for years. It also intersects with being trans and being in danger of "loosing" my woman card for liking something problematic, many cis women like as well. Somehow you need to perform that you are a woman but that you also are pure and free of sexist sin, as if women cant participate in patriarchy or enjoy things that could be problematic, to fight the idea that you perpetuate gender and sexism by "pretending to be a woman" (how terfs express it), and that shows you never really had the woman card in their eyes it was always a choice as they see you.

"Bisexuals were made" YUP

"Twitter is not all discourse" THANK YOU!!! People really treat it like the end all be all of discourse or general opinion when at the end of the day it's like a tiny group of very passionate people that usually don't represent general the public but people act like they do 😭 sorry for the rant it was just nice to hear you say that bc that same thought has been driving me nuts for awhile

Damn I feel like this should have been obvious, but what you said about villains being the more human characters, as opposed to the "good guys" who are almost always enforcing the morality which serves those in power is so true.