The Pour : Treating Alcoholics with Wine - the fifth estate 

Well done Irene 👍

@@sandrapower3250 thankyou coming up to 2 years now

That's awesome!

Nice one Hun 36 here been on the stuff since 2008

You probably support MAID, Canada has become a joke

Agree. A lot of these people would be dead otherwise

War wastes lives, and money.

I agree

I wish more people understood that investing in the vulnerable is actually profitable for society.

I am a social worker and YES! I agree and would love to have a program like this in my state.

@@aj5690 it's not profitable for society...it does reduce the impact on everyone else though No need to go commit crime to support an addiction.. especially with drugs, also it means less money in the pockets of organized crime

No.

​@@mp5249 Cheers🥂

​@@mp5249Yes. Programs like this are saving lives.

Yes it does .how are you doing

butterscotch leopold l agree sir. The lesser of two evils

I AGREE!

Well said

Totally agree! The Oaks is a progressive solution to the many issues that can plague the life of an alcoholic. Housing, Loneliness, Healthcare, Nutrition, etc...In the world of addiction, I almost look at this “wine therapy” in the same way that medication assisted therapy (MAT), such as Suboxone or Methadone, is prescribed for an opiate addict when all other therapy including abstinence has failed. These medications attach to the same receptor sites in the brain as the drug of choice did but doesn’t produce the same high (like the wine prescribed by the doctor didn’t make the patients drunk, only curbed their symptoms of withdrawal). In turn, the person, is well and has the opportunity to function and live a full and happy life. I hope people can get past the initial stigma and embrace this new way of treating alcoholism. It would be great if there were more options out there for those who have been through traditional treatment and failed.

if you see it purely from a medical perspective. its a chemical they are addicted to. they need to have it, and it dosed so they do nt take too much. this is a good idea.

Let alone doing drugs.

in terms of physical dependence, alcohol is almost unique in that withdrawals can be readily fatal, delirium tremens has a mortality rate of 5-10% each time. I've had it twice, and let me tell you..... your body remembers, and lets you know youre at risk of dying@@eustab.anas-mann9510

I'm an alcoholic it's very difficult to come off cause it's legal

when i was desperate and drank mouthwash it felt like someone took there hand shoved it down my throat my body was like naw dog im good and made me throw up so violently i thought my eyes were going to pop out of my head

And not disturbing the peace

@@Coockiez-007 I've drank rubbing alcohol before and kids, don't try this at home. Trust me, it will fvck you up.

Amen.

Felt so sorry for Jimi you can see and hear his pain ❤

She's a good soul, you can tell she has a servant's heart but also knows what she's about and won't stand for any nonsense.

used to be???? you either are or aint!! alcoholism is a lifelong disease

Humans are horrible about addiction.

I thought very seriously about this when I started watching, but I too think this programme is awesome. Why? Because we live in a world of duality - we can't have good without bad, up without down etc. So just as total abstinence is at one end of the spectrum, at the other end we have some who will always need alcohol and I have not yet seen a more compassionate way of dealing with this extreme opposite end of the spectrum. And before I too am judged for being "wishy-washy" by the will-power group, I lived with an alcoholic who eventually got cirrhosis of the liver and who is now abstinent but has to live with a permanent stent in his 50% functioning liver in order to drain fluids from his body. He is back living with me BTW. With addictions there is always room for various help programmes because you cannot have a one fit solution for humanity. This centre has the courage and honesty to face the reality of duality. May there grow more of them.

Shyann1 same thing happened to a friend of mine in his early fifties, watched him switch from beer to vodka and died within a year!

Shyann1 A good friend of mine was an alcoholic since high school and died just before his 32nd birthday. Probably went through rehab and detox a dozen times over about 10 years. I wonder if he'd still be here if he had a place like this.

@ EnviroSocial,.. I doubt it. Some people can stop. But their are those hard caseswhere nothing u say or do can help them. I don't understand that sort of powerful pull. Maybe those are the ones who give up on life and have no hope left. Maybe they are in tremendous emotional pain. I don't know what keeps those hardcore addicts, other than maybe it's like a certain switch is turned on and won't shut off ? A lot of things at play here. Im sorry to hear about ur friend. Blessings ~ xx

@ caryn martin,... ya, it's a sad thing watching others destroy themselves and we cant help them. They have to want to dig deep down inside to help themselves. But the very least I can say is they are not suffering anymore from living that way. Sorry to hear the loss of ur friend. God Bless ~ xx

What keeps people addicted is that chronic exposure to a drug causes changes in the brain. Addiction changes the way a person thinks and feels. Addiction changes a person's brain so they feel intensely driven to get their drug. Addicts do not necessarily have something else "wrong" with them. Plenty of addicts become addicts by experimenting with or using drugs recreationally and not realizing that they're addicted before it's too late. I could get into the neurobiology of addiction more if you want. It's pretty interesting, but just keep in mind that since it changes a person's brain, that's why it isn't really possible for addicts to "just quit." The psychic and emotional forces that they experience, driving them back to the drug, are coming from within the person but are the result of adaptations to chronic exposure to a drug. These adaptations take place at the cellular and subcellular level in the brain.

Agreed, this is such an interesting concept.

Yes and in the states. I live in New Mexico and a program like this would be a saving grace for many.

I agree. It might seem counter-intuitive to give alcohol to an alcaholic but for those with hardened addictions, at this late stage, I think it's really nice that they are in some sense being accepted by those around them, which perhaps they never have felt before.

I don't think we have the money to run it here in England. I am rather suspicious that it's simply an elaborate pub trick. I kind of just looks like a pub, but with the Dr. And, Social Services involved. Certainly looks good for business as a pub, but perhaps after some time that pub might close. Then what? A cafe? Folks need to socialize somewhere. It's a bit of a shame, it's always focused on the alcohol. Although, I imagine that bar work is that skilled. Doing it with drugs as well is taking pandering to folks weaknesses a bit too far. Certainly it's a very complex problem. A job for, a Barperson, a Dr and a Social Worker plus 1000 tax payers perhaps. Nice that you are talking about this my Countryman. People, who are involved with certain drugs and alcohol are always quite close to death. Because of the Therapeutic Index. I have researched alcohol and drug use, out of respect for companions. It's incredible, how close to death those folks are, with the Class A drugs and also Alcohol. With our class system for contrlled drugs. Would you agree that Alcoholic drinks, rank alongside Class A drugs of Opioid substances. I won't even say their names actually. Because that's like marketing. However, I would like to say. I don't really have a clue. I am not a Barperson or whatever really.

@@MrRobertFarr You don't have to say their names. I'm 30+ years into an opiate addiction that feels I'm never going to come out from & the only help here is to swap it for something far worse 🤷🏻‍♀️ I have COPD because of how long I've been smoking all the crap mixed up with it. To answer your question I think alcohol & benzodiazepines (valium etc) are worse than heroin for example. The withdrawal from those 2 things can kill you, whereas with heroin & anything else the withdrawal effects although bad are not as dangerous

isnt it great when your able to use your brain to figure out wether something is right or not unlike these extremists that dont know anything about alcoholism

Jimmy is my grandpa he is an amazing man, owned his own business and taught me so much

@@Strength1111 I love his spirit! What a blessing to have him as a grandpa ❤

I’m a psych nurse too. My mom is one too and she’s one of the most beautiful souls I’ve ever known.

Jimmy is my grandpa

It's probably cheaper and safer to keep them drunk here than in a prison system or out driving on the street killing people.

how can you say that, after the methadone comparison, anyway these guys have been through that. abstinence is the goal, not a method that works with long term alcoholics.

Fukai Kokoro agreed. Some people are too sick to abstain. Maintenance is sometimes life saving. I got lucky and I am so grateful to be in total recovery. 😊

Abstinence with a program is highly successful but the trouble is most alcoholics dont want to work a program and they are reluctant to put in half of the effort into a program that they would put into getting a drink. People say that 12 step abstinence programs dont work for every alcoholic and the trouble is the alcoholic is supposed to work the program instead of the program working for them...

@@ansoncritchlow1770 as someone who’s in recovery your statement is bs. Some people are mentally so unwell they can’t “work the program” or are more introverted and groups don’t work for them.. nothing wrong with that. also IMO majority of AA or NA meetings I’ve been to have felt more like a cult and made me super uncomfortable. A lot of people where they very nice, and it became a toxic clique. They picked and choose who to be nice to. Also I’ve had my privacy violated. People who had seen me in meetings screaming across parking lots that they missed me last meeting. It was embarrassing.

@@ansoncritchlow1770 you obviously have little understanding and even less compassion.

yep..only disease thats bottled and sold = money for the government..try heroin and cocaine..now thats addictive 1000 times more than booze

The other thing people seem to miss is that often drug treatment programs or harm reduction programs can greatly reduce the cost to society. Like needle exchange programs might be paid for using tax dollars, but they save huge costs to the medical system by helping prevent the spread of infectious diseases. I know, it's sad though that so many people are more concerned with their wallets than the lives of others and the overall health of society. People don't scream bloody murder about the cost to taxpayers done by cigarette smoking and consuming alcohol, but when the government tries to do something to reduce those costs, THAT is when people get upset! It makes no sense. Not treating chronic alcoholism costs more money to everyone, but when the government does nothing, people don't complain. When the government tries to save money by implementing preventative measures or harm reduction measures, then people flip out. If people just thought it through a little then they should see that these measures could actually end up saving a lot of tax dollars.

mary Paradis you obviously don't pay taxes

That is such a stupid assumption. She values human life more than a few of her tax dollars. You're assuming that she doesn't pay taxes because you don't understand how someone could care about other people more than tax dollars. Harm reduction programs often save tax payers a lot more money than incarceration or "tough love."

Ape man Commeth l am an addict dingbat

Plus these people would cost the public more money wrt the costs to the health dept, law enforcement etc. As someone who has been on pharmacotherapy for many years I am living proof that harm reduction works.

@LadyKatie How do you know? Have you been through those specific programs? Have they failed you before? Have you ever been addicted to anything? Do you do drugs? Do you drink alcohol, which is a drug? I'm asking seriously because I want to know why you say the programs don't work!

Brett Mitchell As someone who has been on a methadone treatment program since last October, I can tell you that it DOES work! I have been able to rebuild my life (going back to college after dropping out, holding down a steady job, etc.) with the help of methadone and, for that, I am so grateful. Obviously my experience with methadone isn’t the same as everyone else who’s been in/currently on a treatment program, but it can work effectively. I’m living proof.

@@steferly Way to go!!

@@steferly 👏👏👏

Methadone really doesn't mess you up though, unless you're a light user than you can get a buzz. Im all for alternative treatments. I think all drugs should be taxed and legalized.

caryn martin not true. Those programs aren't mind altering the way alcohol is

You don't know what you're talking about. The only reason people on methadone and suboxone don't get stoned is because they are tolerant. It is, however, still very easy for people on methadone to misuse their methadone and alter their consciousness. For example, when they get their weekly doses to take home, they could double or triple dose. Methadone and suboxone are most certainly mind-altering. Alcoholics can drink quite a bit before appearing altered at all, for exactly the same reason: tolerance. The people in this program are only given enough alcohol to feel normal. If they appear inebriated, then they are cut off. Methadone programs are similar. If you go to your methadone doctor and are falling asleep in front of him, then you'd probably have your dose lowered. Seriously, you don't know what you're talking about. Do you not know what tolerance is?

Jenna Fine a person on 100mg of methadone daily to feel normal would prolly make an average Joe o.d and die if they took it.

Jenna Fine not mind altering? Have you ever lived with someone on suboxone....i have...it was horrible...just as bad as the freaking other drugs. He only wanted to take because it made him feel high...then when the high subsided he was done with it.

Also to be on suboxone or methadone you have to participate in a drug program and see a drug Counslor. I heard nothing in this program about group or any kind of drug program.

". . . but ends in the same spots jails, institutions or death." That AA/NA/CA mantra is bullshit. Most alcoholics and addicts do not end up in jail forever; institutionalized forever or dead from their addiction. Most do end up giving up their addictions. I think that using bullshit scare tactics is counter-productive.

"most end up giving up their addictions".....really, how did you come to that conclusion?

Vince Hughson In the end, alcohol is a drug isn't it? I liken this program to methadone treatment, controlled use of opioids for long term addicts.

we are the fortunate ones. those of us who we able to give up the addiction and find a new way to live.

Abstinence may work for some people but you can't stick up your nose at them. This works for them, that's all that matters. What works for you works for you. What works for someone else works for them!

Maureen: It's not just the D.T.s but it's the sweating and horrific nightmares and hallucinations during withdrawal:I have been there twice..never again !

Jimmy is my grandpa

Hope you're better now.

Youre full of fear, shame and judgement.

This is such a beautifully empathetic comment. Bless you.

Very well said. 👌🏻

Me too. I felt bad for Jimmy. You could tell that while he had surrendered to the alcohol, he was ashamed and dreamed of a better life. On the other hand, I had absolutely no sympathy for the young native dude with the stitches in his forehead. To him, it was just a 24 hour, free party. I wanted to shake him. Growing up, that guy knew that he was genetically vulnerable to alcohol. This does sound correct to say...but why didn't he pick a different habit? Grass or something... I have an aboriginal friend who has told me that from childhood, he knew that he could never, ever drink alcohol. Not even taste it. His whole immediate and extended family consisted of hardcore alcoholics. Today, at 36 year old, my friend Carl still hasn't tasted alcohol, tea, coffee or caffeine. Instead, he drinks caffeine free pop like Sprite and 7Up and smokes cigarettes. That is a heck of a lot better than drinking...Especially since he already knew the outcome. ..Up here in Canada, the government can't even send hand sanitizer to the aboriginal reserves during major flu outbreaks. Why? Unfortunately, most reserves have had major problems with their citizens drinking every last drop of the hand sanitizer. So sad....

He is my grandpa

I hear you. And feel the same. Hope you are well. 🤗

@@cjpanneck Yes, I'm ok, certainly a lot better than I ever was when I was drinking. I'm sober nearly 12 years now, have been working for local council for the past 5 years and am generally happier. If you've had similar problems and experiences like in the video, I would hope that you too are well.

Hope you're okay

Bless you sweetheart.

@@NurseSnow2U Thank you God bless you 🙏

Cannabis is also addictive. Like any drug, it can be more addictive for some than others. I do not think that cannabis is anywhere near an ideal medication for alcoholics. Yes, it might help some reduce their drinking and is certainly less harmful than alcohol, but there are FAR better pharmacological treatments for alcoholics. Severe alcoholics can benefit from disulfiram, which prevents the body from metabolizing alcohol to acetic acid. Instead, alcohol gets stuck at the acetaldehyde stage and makes anyone who drinks very sick. Naltrexone, a long-acting narcotic antagonist can be very effective for alcoholism. For short term detoxification, benzodiazepines can help alleviate withdrawal symptoms. Cannabis might help reduce harm for some, but it has its own addiction liability and there are far better drugs for treating alcoholism.

For some perhaps and for others, a plant works very well for them. Keep in mind that for some of us Cannabis manages the trauma or emotional pain that brings us to drink. Pills work for about half of us, and alternatives work for the rest of us. Because of our personal rights and freedoms in Canada, we can see what works for each of our biology now with the legal cannabis program the acmpr.

Yep and alcohol comes from nature too. Something being natural doesn't mean it's always good for you. And what works for you will not always work for others. Smoking pot is not what I would recommend here. Especially as so many have mental health issues and pot and that do NOT go well together.

Really? I work with Doctors who assess and prescribe cannabis for mental illness every day. I think you're uneducated on this topic. What you must remember is that what works for one of us, will not work for all. For some, INGESTING (so many ways other than smoking) Cannabis is successful treatment for many of us. Google is your friend. I work at www.canadiancannabisclinics.ca

Dianna I would love to know the name of a doctor who is prescribing pot for treating mental illness. What conditions do they do this to treat? I'm talking about conditions that have any tendency towards psychosis. Would you agree that it's not suitable in these cases? Ie: Bi Polar, Schizophrenia etc.

How much and what kind of alcohol were you/are you drinking on a daily basis,that you considered yourself an alcoholic?

How did it go, man?

People love to quote percentages about the perceived efficacy of Alcoholics Anonymous, because of what they’ve heard. In most cases they have very little, to no real experience. It’s “beyond” you, because you haven’t bothered to spend enough time talking to people with long term sobriety. If you really want to know something about the power of AA, read the story of former Northwest Airlines captain Lyle Prouse. Best wishes to you.

@@markg.4246 I’m not saying that AA doesn’t work for anyone but it doesn’t work for everyone. If it worked for you that’s awesome but not everyone studies the same way, trains for sports the same way, relaxes the same way or diets the same way. Then why should everyone have to attain sobriety the same way? I think AA has become a religion onto itself and it’s followers are insistent that their path to salvation is the only way and everyone else is a blasphemous infidel and that’s just ignorant

Everybody gets one pour every hour, but the size of the drink varies.

Me to, he's my grandpa

Yes you can.

You’re a beautiful, worthy soul. Don’t let one miserable person discourage you. Much love to you my friend, I’m so proud of you.

Jimmy is my grandpa

It's the ONLY way ...quite correct.

@@Biggles2498 meh. i've quit cold turkey after months of daily drinking and had no issues but it's better to taper.

@@Biggles2498 Absolutely incorrect. Abstinence is definitely NOT the only way and in the long term almost guarantees relapse, due to the Alcohol Deprivation Effect. Do some research before making ignorant comments on AUD. cthreefoundation.org/

@@stevecooper7038 I meant tapering on a gradient towards zero alcohol....look up the word "taper" in the DICTIONARY ! It is too much of a shock to the body to suddenly stop drinking overnight.