I am just beginning to learn about Irish paganism. I began exploring paganism in the early 1990s, when the triple goddess concept was quite popular in a generalized way (not specific to a particular culture). It was my understanding from teachings back then 30+ years ago, that the maiden represented our adventure and exploration in life, the mother represented the awakened creativity of woman, not literally or only motherhood to children, and the crone was the representation of lifetime wisdom and experience and the keeper of the history of a generation.
@@invadertifxiii Also, the Maiden, Mother, Crone are a metaphorical trinity of the individuation process in the "One Woman." For example, a girl of maiden age might be compelled to take care of ailing parents or younger siblings, in which case she would be mother, more than maiden, or even crone in having to make serious decisions on behalf of the family, even if she did not feel competent. In an opposite example, a woman of crone age might be widowed or retire from a long career and become a maiden again in the sense that she is beginning a new life. There is only one woman who non-linearly phases in and out of the three experiences throughout a lifetime, but essentially, from birth, she is all three at once, like the old example of the apple, which is a seed, a tree, and a blossom/fruit all at once.
@@invadertifxiii I guess the point is, there's no male equivalent - the male deities or heroes can be anything and their own offspring-status is never mentioned within that context - there's no Lad / Dad / Grandad equivalent!
Our societies have changed and grown, and with that we have the opportunity to deepen and widen our understanding of the Goddess(es). This is a great video, thank you for sharing!
Thank you for what you do. I am learning so much about my ancestors culture and my spiritual path. I have recently had Irish people on social media say I am culturally appropriating be cause I don't currently speak Gaelic, have an Irish accent, or just that I am American. There is so much misinformation on different pagan practices that it is hard to parse the truth sometimes. It is a blessing from the gods to have access to knowledgeable people like yourself and Irish Pagan School
I have been listening to you for over a year now. I am continually trying to understand and connect with your point of view. I accept your premises. Since I am multicultural, I celebrate all aspects of the Mother Goddess, however, each culture understood her. I just want to mention Hekate, from the Greek/Anatolian culture has written about Hekate as a triple-goddess. Her faces have been identified as Artemis, Hekate, Selene; or Persophane, Hekate, and Diana. She is honored in all aspects of her person, maiden, mother, and crone. I am proud of being a crone. These epithets do not have to be derogatory. Our concerns as women do change and each aspect of the Mother Goddess is to be honored. I hear you about Irish Deities. Your knowledge is appreciated. Thank you for your thoughts. I value your input, whether or not I agree. Your positions are worthy of deep consideration.
the "gatekeeping" hammer is swung whenever entitled people feel someone is not giving them whatever they want without putting actual work and effort into basic research, self development and integrity - basically wanting everything to be fed with a golden spoon, even at the personal cost of the other... its an eternally infantile and narcissistic accusation by people who refuse to grow up
Thanks so much for this. Being an infertile intersex woman it’s always been hard for me to deal with the common trope of defining female deities and ancestors based only on fertility and child rearing. I can’t believe it was that simple in the pre-christian times and obviously it definitely isn’t now. Also good to see someone setting boundaries around pagan traditions to keep out the nonsense, from any direction.
I remember being a bitty Pagan in the '90's trying to decide how The Morrigan- with Her sisters, fit into the "Maid Mother Crone," bs. The days of yore... To the people that tell you that you're "gatekeeping" I say, "Yo, my people, just admit that you're wrong- that everything you've heard is wrong. You can be a scholar of "Celtic Studies," but that doesn't mean you know diddly shit about Irish Paganism. I came to terms with the fact that I was wrong. Now I'm learning from authentic sources thanks to the Irish Pagan School. I was wrong, You are wrong. Let's journey together to find the truth." It bothers me because, and I've said this before,, y'all at the IPS aren't obligated to share your very ancient and very living spirituality with the rest of the world.. You could say, "Oh we're a closed system." However, you don't, You invite to the IPS anyone who is willing to do a little work on learning real Irish Paganism. That's the opposite of gatekeeping..
As someone from the outside looking in, I would argue that anyone who accuses a video like this of 'gatekeeping' is, in fact, gatekeeping their own ideology. Love the video, thank you for expanding my horizons beyond my own borders, and, yes, I am now a subs. Look forward to exploring your collection of videos.
Interesting. Thank you for this. I’ve never seen the maiden, mother, crone as coming from the patriarchal perspective. But I guess it does. This has got me thinking. I don’t study Irish in particular, I’m English. But I find your history fascinating and love reading folklores
Valid. And maiden, mother, crone as assigning women solely reproductive functionality and the sexism of that was an important topic of conversation in a pagan group I was part of over a decade ago, 13 or so years ago, here in the US. Interesting it's still needing to be addressed in 2022.
Thank you for calling this out I completely agree! OFC you can protect and clarify your own culture and history! There's far too much nonsense info out there purported by 'experts' who are no such thing! In terms of the Neo-pagan patriarchal bit, I too have an issue with it - I've always assumed a man came up with it because it reeks of men's views of women's *usefulness* - we're either a seggs object (maiden), or we're the mother of their children and we make their dinners (mother), and then we are the naggy annoying mother-in-law, elderly hooked-nose witch in the woods crone (i.e. no longer of any 'use' to men at all). I do love though, how women and NB folks in their 40s and even 30s are starting to say out loud "I can't wait for my Crone phase!" Because people see it now as freeing, we are no longer under the male gaze.
As a general non conformist in all things including my approach to religion, I haven’t felt gatekeepered out of your conversation; I’ve felt very invited and included
Thanks for this video. I came through neopaganism and have found IPS just recently. I never liked the maiden, mother, crone thing. We don't do boy, dad, and old coot for men. No matter how you look at it maiden, mother, and crone reduces women to where they are by age alone, and if the had children.
I dont think I have much of any emotional agenda around using the terms "Maiden, Mother, and Crone". I never use them at all. I'm not a huge fan of the words maiden and crone to be honest. But I do want to ask why you drew the conclusion that the terms themselves are a product of toxic patriarchy and they reduce women to their (I'm paraphrasing) usefulness/ value in reproduction? I know there are origins and uses of the term historically that I am not aware of, so if you know of examples that are contributing to your conclusion I am ignorant of those instances. That being said, when I think of a mother, I don't think "baby-making machine". That would be psychopathic. I think "older but still vital and youthful, experience under the belt, leadership in the community, half of deity, etc". I dont think Maiden, Mother, and Crone, as solely reflecting fertility. That's not what those words mean. I would say they reflect very real seasons in a person's life. That, in tandem with the changes relating to fertility, there are changes in energy, physicality, psychology, social hierarchy and responsibility , competency , personality, etc. Such is life. It is undeniable truth that all of those interwoven changes happen over time. That's what I think of when I hear any of those terms. Not "this is a baby making machine. That is not a baby making machine" nor have I ever heard anyone use those terms in that kind of reductionist way, but like I said I'm sure there are uses of those terms that I am not aware of. Are these terms inherently reductionist, or is that perspective a reductionist projection? I dont accept that I hold these assumptions you're saying are true about these terms. I don't think many other do either. And I don't think these terms are inherently what you say they are. To me it seems clear that this is your experience/projection, coming from a particular framework that is actually stimulating you to now be reductionist towards these terms. These terms, that do nod to fertility, but speak to much more than that. I think its true that in many ways, we unintentionally become the trauma inflicted upon us. Even me right now, by pointing out what might be wrong or incomplete with your expression instead of validating your experience and reflecting where you're making good points... I'm doing what was done to me. And I don't intend to be invalidating... Any amount of reducing someone just for their biological processes, and not seeing the core of their hearts and personalities is so wrong, and so painful. I guess you could say labels themselves are inherently reductionist or limiting but that's not a bad thing necessarily. Other modalities like astrology have different terms for roughly the same time frames of one's life. Like astrology- you could speak of the first Saturn return happening roughly around the transition from maidenhood to motherhood. I guess I want to close with saying it's not inherently dishonoring to Feminity to nod to fertility and biology. We can resent it for as long as we want to but for the time being, the majority of humans follow a chronological life path that matches the transitions painted by the "MMC " Trifecta. Thank you for your work in teaching the collective about Irish Spirituality- we need that. And I say that in all sincerity. Thank you 🙏
Thank you I was told this as a child that the triple Goddess has no place in Celtic paganism,. and everyone thinks I made it up ,I don't observe the triple Goddess
Robert Graves was English. Wicca is an English tradition that has spread worldwide, and came to prominence as the British Empire was accelerating in its decline. Wicca's founders felt entitled to claim Irish traditions as their own given the colonial mindset that was predominant in the mid-20th century, and which, to a large extent, still exists in England and America. (I'm saying this as an American.) This is not an indictment of Wicca as there seem to be more and more Wiccans who are conscious of cultural appropriation. But distinguishing actual Irish Paganism from other people's idol fancies ("idol" spelling being deliberate) is important.
I was just thinking about this when I came to the channel tonight. If there were a triple aspect I think it would need to be based on something else. Maiden, Mother and Crone certainly doesn't fly well with free will does it? It's cool if that's the path you want to roll in but, seems limiting.
Personally I always believed The Mórrígan was a single goddess - never as a triple she has her own deity. I mean it's bad enough when people degrade the Irish culture now. It's even worse when they know nothing about the pagan or lore of Ireland but think they do and change it to whatever they feel like to suit their own agendas.
Is the natural process of a woman’s life patriarchal? I think confusion comes in if one phase is put above the other. Each phase of a women’s of life has value.
Calling physical fertility 'the natural process of a woman's life' is patriarchal, yes, so perhaps sit down and a have a wee think about that for a while.
@@IrishPaganSchool It statistically relevant, that yes, the outstanding majority of women will be able ovulate and will be able to carry children. Women’s bodies are designed to do that. Being pregnant is one of the natural states of a women’s body. The only thing that makes this patriarchal is if you are viewing women’s appeal/ attractiveness/ relevance to men through their propensity to ovulate and carry children. But as a feminist myself, I would hope most women are able to honor and celebrate the natural processes, hormonal changes in their bodies without taking into consideration its usefulness to men.
Is there any goddess that was baddass and not just young and sexy and waited for someone to rescue them? Apparently in scotland bridget was recused by a male god from an old crone who was keeping her hostage.
As far as I can tell, the maiden-mother-crone doesn't exist in any religion or mythology anywhere. It's a human archetype that doesn't apply to the gods. Hecate? She's not a crone. She's eternally young. (Though She does have those three heads, because She's not human.) Sekhmet? Eternally young. Durga? Eternally young. Rhea, mother of Zeus? Eternally young. The gods can appear (nearly) any way They wish, but in general They either appear young (Demeter) or very young (Persephone). The only gods I can think of that are generally depicted as old are the Moirae and sometimes the Norns.
I’ve always thought mother n crone was a disgusting ideology I’ll never forget how my friends mom was a Wiccan I was probably 12-13 and she scolded me for not knowing what the mother or crone was 🤦🏼♀️🤦🏼♀️🤦🏼♀️
