It's always interesting to read the comments and I appreciate the feedback and different perspectives. There is a theme I see coming up a lot that will help me better articulate this concept in the future. Many are defaulting to the "men need to buck up" mentality. This is true, but this message is also part of the problem. It's a "just do more" or "try harder" message filled with shame and doesn't inspire the hearts and minds of men. It's like telling someone struggling with porn to "just stop looking at it" as if they haven't already tried that. Men have tried to "buck up" but have found little strength and support to do so. Men aren't lazy, they are mainly just misunderstood. They need real connection to other men (brotherhood) and mentorship from other masculine men who have experienced more of life. Masculinity bestows masculinity! Messages of "be stronger" by "doing more" don't offer anything to men. It's not a motivational problem, it's a connection problem. Men don't know how to connect with other men and therefore struggle to connect with God. As a church community, we can offer men real connection, brotherhood, purpose, authenticity, and adventure (like we do with youth), and address their core desires rather than their less-than-perfect behavior.
Kurt I agree with you completely on this. Men definitely need to be around other men and support each other in our struggles of life. I am a convert and was baptized at 16. I had an older father who was not involved much with my life because of bad health issues. After joining the church I learned a great deal about masculinity by being around strong men in the church and also by serving a mission. This influence changed my life and gave me a foundation. As an older middle age guy I see the importance of now passing this on the next generation of younger men.
@@anthonyrippa686 Please read through Elder Cook's October 2018 general conference talk on this again. Seeing the move as nothing more than "less Church" is a misunderstanding. Also Elder Bednar's talk in April 2019.
My father, USMC Gysgt (Ret.), Vietnam vet, etc., taught me what it means to be a man: 1) Be gentle, be kind, be humble, be meek, towards others, even if, at times, that means taking pain. 2) How to fight. To have the confidence that you can take care of business, if you must. This confidence leads to an abhorrence for war and conflict (because you personally know the consequences), something desperately needed in our warmongering world. 3) When you must fight, when there's no way out, fight, FIGHT. Prevail. Engage the enemy with such ferocity, that they have no choice but to surrender. And, it is honorable to do so.
I wish this subject received more attention from our church leaders. Between our society, our church, and what’s going on politically, our men seem half-dead, fearful, unsure, and unhappy!
They don't want to get political, or offend the women [who are mostly democrat] in any way, so they won't talk about it. They don't want to offend half the church membership, so their basically gagged.
What a great, much needed and important conversation! As the mother of 3 men I am saddened by the way the whole world is changing their view and treatment of men. This inspires me to advocate for change. Thanks Greg! 👏🏻
The Boy Scouts of America used to have a "Year Round Camping Award" for troops that went outdoor camping every month of the year. We loved the challenge and learned the most from winter camping.
@@silbannacusofoxyrhynchus6096 wow I remember so much from our snow camping trips in my ward Scout troop in Nor Cal. While I can't say that at the time I really ENJOYED freezing at night, it certainly was memorable lol! Safety first IMO when it comes to anything, but yes by all means adventure and experience great things, even transforming things, together as quorums and groups, brothers and sisters (and families). 👍
As a YW president, I can testify of the utmost importance of the men in the church. These girls NEED their fathers and they need to know WHY they need their guidance, leadership, and love. The world is very loud, if we aren't teaching our youth then the world will teach them for us...and it will not be good or beneficial to their salvation by any means. We need masculine men so we can continue to raise up a righteous people, so we can have good role models for these young women to look up to and to aspire to have in a husband. Not just that, but when the fathers are present and strong in their family's life, it teaches these young women how to respect themselves and what to accept for themselves from others around them. We need our fathers to pry into their family's life, to be a little nosy and check in with their children. Open the lines of communication so it chases out shame and the want to hide things. It starts with the men bringing things into the light.
Men need to have purpose in front of their faces constantly. It is what fulfills us. If we are distracted or dissuaded by purpose, we don't know what to do with ourselves. We need more messaging, teaching, and support about purpose, goal, fulfillment with Christ as the example and a look toward the Plan of Salvation.
You have a huge role in this. Teach the ladies to honor and cherish the priesthood held by the men. Ask them to let their dads champion them. Ask them to *find* opportunities to ask for fathers' blessings. Your big challenge is the man haters. Every ward has them, be honest.
I read Strong Fathers Strong Daughters on the urging a female friend and was very humbled at how badly I was failing … but as a father of five I gotta show up and have made a lot of changes.
@roland smith Yes! Yes! Yes! This exactly. All our lives we're taught that we need to be good priesthood holders and lead our family. When we are not supported or even allowed to lead our family in FHE, family prayer, family scripture, family gospel study, give priesthood blessings, participate in family decisions, that is when we become dead inside. When the man in a family is relegated to only be the bank teller who hands all of the money over and then is not respected, appreciated, listened to, or allowed to participate in family decisions, that is when a man dies inside. We need to feel needed. We need to be appreciated for the sacrifices we make for our family. Our opinions matter. We need to be trusted and also not lied to. The cliché that all a man wants is sex is so shallow and superficial. What a man wants is to be respected, appreciated, needed, trusted, and included.
Serving a mission was my battle/adventure from my primary years up to the end of my mission. My gf waited for me, so I was married less than a year later. Getting my degree and a job was the next battle but after that it was just 'coasting along' with no great battle to fight and I really felt the lack of it. I filled it with getting involved in politics for a while, then with some hobbies that challenged me. Men need something to struggle against, a struggle that is meaningful to them.
Great topic - when my husband was EQP he found two big issues - men thought you had to fit into a specific mold to be active or accepted and men didn’t feel like they had support or friendship at church. My husband did his best to crush both issues. He targeted these two issues - in 18 months he went from 12 men attending EQ meetings to over 90 men attending. We didn’t have a huge move in rate - this was mostly working with activating the current pool of men on the rolls. One thing he did was encourage the men to be men, to step up and lead their families. He encourage the men to socialize outside of church with each other - etc.
love the talk- thank you! for the 30 years of my adult life, i bristled to my core when i've been told that i wasn't nice enough or polished enough. immediately i'd think, "screw you and your judgement". i'm good at some stuff that you're not good at, and vice versa. i sat in a bishopric meeting once where someone said that they were worried that there wasn't a calling for brother so-and-so because he wasn't nice enough. i couldn't help but say, "well go tell Jesus that there's no place for that brother in His church". "The false traditions of our fathers".
Thank you for your straight talk on real things that are happening for us. Lets get real and spread these things things througout our respective Quorums.
Family is the “Larger game”, it is where you are challenged to implement and Teach the true Principles of Eternity and Preside. ( Be in charge) of helping (Charity) all your Loved ones Gain Eternal Life. The Gospel of Christ is all encompassing and has all the answers! Love the thought provoking shows you produce. 👍
The World at large is attacking men /masculinity. Family is the adventure and our purpose in life. The battle is protecting the Family and giving the tools to the children to achieve adulthood and live a wholesome happy healthy life. My purpose is Family and hopefully giving my children a better foundation then I had to build their lives on.
Women can get involved by being a woman wife/mother. Traditional women make traditional men we have allowed Satan to suggest that men and women are the same and that gender does not matter.
While individual men can and should use their agency to buck the trend, we don't solve this at the community/Church level without addressing a very uncomfortable reality: the normalization of female entitlement, neuroticism, and narcissism over the past few decades. If you don't know what I'm referring to just look at the growing chorus of IG and Tiktok influencers who target LDS women. The messaging is generally: you are perfect, "your truth" is all that matters, and you don't owe God, the Church, your children, or even your husband anything. At present we lack the language and will to really address this issue, and until we do men will continue down the path of isolation and emasculation. I've been in EQ presidencies on and off over the years and I've always taken events and activities very seriously. The biggest roadblock to getting the necessary turnout is, by far, the wives. "I have to ask my wife," or even "my wife said no," are common responses to event invites. While I'm sure many women are saying "where are the men?" or "I wish my husband made time for friends and his own interests" we need to be realistic--most women are not saying this. They might like the RESULTS of their husband pursuing some extracurricular passion (starting a side business, learning a time-intensive skill, making time for friends...etc.) they very often discourage these pursuits. If we look at broader trends we see bad things for men in terms of earning potential, education, romantic prospects, isolation, suicidality..etc. I am not one to say what the Church "should" do, but I hope our leaders are seeing these things and prayerfully considering how to reverse the trends at least within the Church. IMO part of that is going to require confronting the feminine excess of the social media era, but I'm not sure we have the cultural resolve to see that through.
As a woman, I agree with your assessment of many LDS women influencers. Both the men and women of the church are showing the true state of their hearts; we're witnessing the separation of the wheat and tares. Each of us has agency to choose the one way or the other. I'm choosing to hold tight to church doctrine lest I give way to the destructive influences of the world. My children are, too. There is a bright future ahead for those who choose to do the work required to remain on the covenant path.
I am an EQ President. The only advice I get from my priesthood leadership is to “just love them”! No matter what the situation is the council is always verbatim, “just love them”
It’s almost a non answer at this point. My friend likes to point out that there’s so much more value (and showing a sincere “I love you”) in telling your male friend you’re taking him to go get a Dr. Pepper than in the ritual of putting on a white shirt and tie to show up at his house to give a lesson. A lot of men need men time, away from family and home, where they can just talk about “stuff” over an icy beverage.
Yes, because leaders don't know what to do. While the advice is true, it is dismissive. Consider how you would engage, inspire, and rally. I really like the three points that every man needs brought up by Kurt- A Battle To Fight, An Adventure to Live, and A Beauty To Love.
That advice is true but has become so cliche that it has lost all meaning. The best way to love men in your elders quorum is to speak to the core desires of their heart and give them a place to manifest those core desires.
@@KurtFrancom it’s rarely ever had meaning. Because very few people understand WHAT it means. I would love to talk with you more on this topic because I think there’s a better way to address it.
@Cwic Media I think love is like faith. It involves action otherwise it dies before it even is really formed. "Just love them" in a Christlike sense involves ministering to the one and letting the one feel that you genuinely care, otherwise it is dismissive.
Guys. I understand and get what you are trying to do here. And I love it. Women want strong men who can lead. Remember that our church is approx 50% single whether it be from divorce, spouses death or never married. Make sure you address all of us and not just the married people. (A reason why a lot of singles don’t go to church anymore). 😢
I've read through a lot of these comments and it got me thinking about another sub-culture that is impacting our men and that's the 'I'll run that by the Bishop', or the 'We're waiting to hear from the Stake' on that. Often if a non-leader through their own desire/ambition, etc.. want to 'schedule'/Implement something, it is snuffed out by leaders seeing it as a threat or just someone stepping outside their lane (pretending to some concern made up to justify squashing the effort). It's as if we don't work through the organizations of the church it shouldn't be done. The more people 'offer' or 'suggest' or 'ask' and are turned down, the less they stick their necks out. The more their ideas are just ignored completely, the less they offer those ideas. So even the best among us are silenced into submission, and this is MEN doing this to us. So lets not forget that we are victims of ourselves as well (at least those that seem to always be in charge no matter now ineffectual they seem to be).
Also, my understanding was that they decreased the number of extra-curricular church sponsored activities because people’s lives were being consumed by church activities and people were neglecting their families.
Jordan Peterson made the excellent case that niceness and kindness is only a virtue in someone who is willing and capable of harming others. You can't be truly virtuous in weakness. Virtue is born of strength. What do we do to help our men become strong?
Came back to listen to this episode for a second time. I would be interested to see a panel of LDS men from different career fields talking about this. I'm curious to know if there's a difference between the logger who's out in the woods with a bunch of guys all day and the guy sitting behind a desk in an office or a cubicle? My thought as I was listening about the "battle to fight and an adventure to live" was that men USED to have frequent opportunities to do those things together and develop the brotherhood and comradery you're speaking of. They'd go off for a week or so together to hunt for their families and villages-- they got together to raise a home or a barn, to fight off the tyrant, the land barron, the band of thieves trying to "pillage the village", etc. I wonder how much the industrial revolution and technology (as awesome as they are) has fed into the loss of brotherhood and opportunities for men to engage in "a battle to fight and an adventure to live". So it makes me wonder if guys in the military, who work on oil rigs, who go off into the woods to cut down trees for a logging company, who are on police or fire departments, who are construction workers, etc have the same issues, or at least, to same degree?
Have you listened to clinical psychologist Jordan Peterson when he explains that a man needs to be strong and a monster BUT in complete control of his strength ?
I feel like a lot of these comments center around, “the church isn’t doing xy or z for me.” Is that why you go to church? It’s about developing a relationship of Jesus Christ not a hobby hut or a social club.
Wives can help men achieve their potential by resisting the urge to correct and challenge their husbands. Many men feel beat down and just throw their hands up and say, “whatever you want, dear” because they’re tired of the carping or of being insulted or of having to verbalize and justify their thinking. I swear, I’m dead inside. This is not who God intended me to be.
I would love more direction and insight about how wives can be be better friends to their husbands. It's hard when we don't have the vantage point of our husbands and what they need and they don't always have the vocabulary or comfort being vulnerable enough to acknowledge their own needs let alone express them.
@Jake Parks Sorry for being confusing. I mean my teenage sons. I like what you said. The thought of parenting a spouse makes me want to gag because if in a marriage the spouses have a parent/child type relationship, it makes physical intimacy seem very perverse. I struggle to find balance in knowing how to parentally support my sons with the boundaries and direction they still need, while at the same time helping them to feel like capable men who are courageous enough to take initiative even if their ideas and intent don't lead to their desired outcome. I don't want them to see any experiences as failures but as learning and growth experiences because that is what I would like for myself.
Traditional men activities: helping each other with branding cattle (roping and dragging cattle to the fire), getting together to help each other with harvest, hunting or fishing trip, recreational roping, softball or basketball games, wood cutting. Instead of these kind of activities we are expected to tolerate femishness to do nothing but talk platitudes.
We EQ had a salmon barbeque & had a party for navy wives whose husbands were out to sea. Temple prep courses. It brought the quorum together. My dad was never part of my life growing up and tried to change that spending time with my children & talking about things that brings families together family and members of church. My son in the marines learned many lessons how to be a man and have adventure and become something. Hopefully form me and the Marines. We had family hug with my family. It's Tradition was a motto in my family
I love this men ought to build Zion. Woman ought to nurture it in their beautiful way. But we as men need to prepare for emergencies and build Zion. All we need to do is remember that we are son of a god. That the point of the church is to prepare for the second coming. We have to build Zion. been watching some 1990's talks the church was way ahead of its time in a lot of ways. So the church ought to push for adventure of building up Zion. I have had far greater comradery playing video games then I have ever had from elders quorum
Thank you for sharing the Men's Core Perspective: #1 Question: Do I Have What it Takes?* 1.) A battle to Fight. 2.) An Adventure to Live. 3.) A Beauty to Love! * Answer: with GOD, YES!!
I'm reeeeeally invested in this episode. I moved to a small eastern Idaho town located on the border. I am not able to relate to the "Mr. Rogers" mentality of men here at all and frankly, I wish there was. I think people are so off base in assuming so many points about "masculinity... " the men here are quite "brauny" but only 1% are what I consider "Godly". They don't fulfill their callings, they don't share spiritual insight nor contribute to the ward. They are not presiding in their families and the Stake presidency is concerned about how "asleep" these men are. They ride their horses and call that their sabbath day. I hate to break it to ya. Defining a man is different to many different walks of life. Give me Roger's over this John Wayne here. I'm tired of their arrogance.
I see it here as well in Ohio. Although we have men who love the Gospel, we also have a majority that are the "Cowboy first" vs. "Gospel last". It wares on a ward. We have the SOS. Same Old Seven leaders running our ward. Lack of men's ability to contribute
If WWIII hits, who would you rather have defending you/fight along side; Mr Rogers or Captain Moroni (John Wayne)? My dad fought/won WWII he watched 6,000 of his peers die in one battle. They sent three times that of japanese soldiers to their heathen graves that day. I am eternally grateful that he was not a wuss.
@roland smith you just proved my point! Why on earth would you think I am referring to a man like Mr. Rogers (who loved his country and I'm sure would die for his country) is not valid or "enough" to fight along side any other man?!?! Did you NOT understand my take on this subject? I am stating that ANY man "wuss" or not would not be in good standing if they do not uphold to their responsibility to the Gospel. THE GOSPEL! Why on earth would you discuss war? My own father served in the military. He had 3 college degrees and wore dress pants and glasses. Should he NOT have served the country? Seriously?!?! Wow. Just wow.
I do believe what was discussed here is a good point of the discussion. However, there's more to be said or added. I for one have experienced the anti-male mentality and toxicity especially when it comes to custody and the challenges that came with. At the present, and it's been recognized now, that feminism has destroyed masculinity and men in general and now women wonder where the men have gone. It's not that most men are gone or not willing to put effort into a relation or another relationship, just that there isn't nothing in it for men when it comes to deciding on thinking of marriage/relationships. Helen Smith, Ph.D, author of "Men on Strike", pretty much summed it up this way; "What exactly does marriage offer men today? Men know there's a good chance they'll lose their friends, their respect, their space, their sex life, their money and if it all goes wrong - their family. They don't want to enter into a legal contract with someone who could effectively take half their savings, pension and property when the honeymoon is over. Men aren't wimping out by staying unmarried or being commitment phobes. They're being smart. Unlike women, men lose all power after saying I do. Their masculinity dies, too." There's a battle on both boys and men, however it's the war on the family unit which is the bottom line and is of a heavenly order. For myself, being married only once and didn't last but a few years, I found myself in a battle of proving that I was a good parent where the state and the social mentality said I wasn't by any means despite having the backing of both sides of the involved families. Even within the Church membership it was 'the norm' that the male wasn't a good parent, however, I battled the state, the mentality and the odds, but despite the fact I did get my child, I still lost, my child lost as well. Nobody won but attorneys. However, it seems that it's much easier to battle a company of SEAL teams than to think about committing to another marriage/relationship. The battle since, has not been bountiful to say the least. I date with thinking of possible threats of being accused falsely due to the toxic social mentality both outside and inside Church membership; I know a few men that endured that environment and even noted in the news. I keep distances from women in general, in the gym, even in church meetings as well as the Temples. I just don't know and again, it's not worth the risk. Also, in cases, men have to battle a previous abusive marriage(s) of a woman and despite his efforts, he could suffer the negative consequences and compound the losses. I don't see any good answers at this point in all of 'this' and believe me, I've searched, pondered and prayed. I'm hoping, with faith, that one day there won't be something as such to be of concern, but I don't believe I will actually see it and I quite possibly will surely pay the eternal price of it. However, despite it all, I will still come to a woman's aid, as well as a child's, especially a child, or someone that is in need of some kind, for as a quote from Jordan Peterson: "A harmless man is not a good man. A good man is a very dangerous man who has it voluntarily under control".
Feminism can not destroy a man unless he allows it to. There are many men who have not listened to the lies of feminism; they continue to live their lives as strong, God-fearing men. Those who blame someone else for their current condition (women, feminism) are not taking responsibility for their own choices. The same can be said for women: If they are unhappy, it is nobody's fault but their own.
@@CwicShow For what it’s worth, I attempted to add more substance to the conversation without getting emotional about it because these types of conversations still get to me at times. I wasn’t speaking for all men, or men in general and was not looking for sympathy for myself, but to give something more in the view of what I’ve seen and experienced by myself and by other men, and I knew I assisted in helping them, and it helped me as well, by listening to them through a ‘campfire’ mentality, and not really giving advice. Just talking. Some of these men wondered why I got back involved and stayed involved within the Church while they felt betrayed and abandoned by society and even with the Church membership by divorce, single, getting cheated on by the girlfriend/spouse. My reason was pretty simple and basic, my child, however, I also expressed how doors opened up that I never thought of, and I’ll leave it there, because words cannot describe the small victories, or better, rays of light but another quote when I heard it can describe it best and is a reminder to me; “…no matter how much it hurts, how dark it gets or how far you fall - you’re still in the fight.” - Marcus Luttrell, “Lone Survivor”. Despite it all, I do hope the conversation keeps going even though, it may not make much progress or at all; it still needs to have some light shed on the subject. I also wish to thank you for doing what you do with these podcasts because they’ve helped me quite a bit in understanding more of the patterns of scriptures, even with both scripture and history for that matter, because humans are creatures of habit. You have helped out quite a lot.
I would agree with this. Sunday and Sacrament are great but Elders Quorum is just bla bla bla. I was an Elders Quorum President in the mid 90s & we were involved in quorum meetings it was spiritual then. I wonder if it was combining them as we seemed to lose one another as we cannot relate to them and they can't relate to us older folk.
I wish our idea of masculinity came from Captain Moroni. He's the best non Christ example. Talk about being a man in ACTUALLY fighting demons on behalf of your family by using your priesthood. That's what helped me. If I was an EQ teacher I'd have a lesson on captain Moroni and the family proclamation.
This has been a great discussion. I was recently released as an EQP and I spent my time trying to accomplish what has been discussed. We had activities, barbecues, real service projects, and created a lot of unity and brotherhood. Working to overcome the entrenched mentality about LDS men are supposed to be is challenging. Your discussion about church athletics triggered a not so pleasant memory. My church athletics experience wasn't like yours. I am one of those that is not the least bit athletic, more the artistic musician type. I began playing the piano for priesthood meeting my first Sunday after turning 12 and have been playing piano and organ ever since. My parents wanted me to participate in the athletics so they made sure I got there. I remember one practice where the coach, a big brawny prison guard, took my left handed ball glove from me and gave it to someone else saying, "He will actually use this." Later this coach hit a line drive right to me and I caught it bare handed. There was no way I was going to give him the satisfaction he wanted by dropping the ball no matter how bad it hurt. The coach then said, "I don't mind being put out but I hate being put out by someone like him." I quit going. I found my adventure climbing mountains and have hiked all over the west, seen the top of many western states, have been over 14,000' 5 times and am now working on the Appalachian high points. The sites are always amazing.
It's admirable how you took action in your ward and in your personal life instead of sitting around complaining about the situation, wishing someone would come along to fix it. Thanks for your example!
I also feel like there’s just this idea like I can’t do anything that I want to do because there’s so many weekly church responsibilities, and we never get to explore masculinity except on scout camp outs, hikes an scout camp, but once those things are passed, then it’s like we all just drown in church responsibilities for the rest of our lives. Idk, maybe this is just my problem.
I see value in the individual pieces of what was discussed, but the overall message felt a lot like needing to get back to the good old days of men being men. Notably lacking from this conversation was acknowledgement of or reconcilement with the emerging societal value of inclusivity, or recognition of any of the ways in which yesteryear’s masculinity did include harmful elements, such as what happened in your story. I mean, are we really throwing Fred Rodgers under the bus??
This resonates with me so much. I love the church and even while I do not connect to the Mr Rogers types in the EQ, I value them and what they bring to the quorum. But we have to leave room for other types. There is room in the priesthood of God for aggressive, masculine men who have that part of themselves under control but are capable of exacting harsh correction and even violence when needed. The women in the Church are looking for these types of men, as well. There’s not enough. We’ve edged them out and made them feel unwelcome or tried conversion therapy (little tongue in cheek there). I’m a war vet who hunts, rides dirt bikes and prefers my solitude and privacy. I also love to serve my community. But there’s little question that modern Church culture has tried to squash those traits out of me. I’ve been told my whole life to essentially be like Mr Rogers. We need some Rogers but we need some John Wayne, too. 😁
The loss of Church sports, to me, has attributed greatly to the decline of the men and boys in our church. This is why.. my husband played church sports all the 50 years we were married. Our 4 sons all played, our daughters played softball and volleyball, so did i. It was some of the funnest greatest memories of our family. The physical exercise, the sportsmanship, and sometime unsportsmanship, ALL were good.. taught us soooooo many good things. Then it all stopped.. why? Our sons that have served in the last 6 years as bishops say kids don't want to do sports.. they don't even know how.. being physically active is a important as being spiritually active.. especially for men and boys.
My son would go to Young mens and nothing would be prepared so they would end up playing basketball. I told the leaders that what I told my son, if he shows up and the only activity is basketball, he is free to leave. I love sports and I love the gospel, mixing the two has always been difficult.
For us all the boys did was play sports and bully the boys that were not athletic. My worst decision as a parent was making my son go to young men's activities. I did not know about the bullying until much later. Scouts was a joke. He did get his Eagle, was the first boy in many years to complete the duty to God, and his leaders did very little to help him when they helped the popular boys. Sports are great but should not be the focus of every activity.
Speaking as a current 17 year old young man they rarely choose important educational physical activities. I would much rather split wood or learn how to build something than play basketball because while it can be fun the standard sports arent lasting experiences.
@@nolankarns3332wait till you are 18 and an adult . Then u can decide anything u want to do . And not what your parents want you to do . Build a homeless house . Give to the poor personally . Create . Do the will of God . Hit it with a hammer - Brother .
@@kevindavis5416 Im already doing a lot of those things youtube.com/@goodtimber this is my families youtube channel Ive built a cabin on a mountain. We had the young men in our ward up for a campout one weekend and one of them even came up on his own the next week to work. Theres something about hard work outdoors that speaks to a mans soul. When you work with trees especially you can feel the soul of the tree. Sorry if Im rambling Im just really passionate about this stuff.
This is a super important topic. I’m tired of feeling dead inside and shrinking from taking initiative because I’m concerned about criticism. (All easier said than done. Five decades of “niceness” reeducation both in the Church and in society will do that to a man.)
Thank you for speaking up! I see so much of this and I feel like it is the reason so many good men are leaving the church...because they are exhausted of feeling dead inside. I am raising 3 boys and I want to teach them to be MEN that ACT in truth and Righteousness and are bold and agents for themselves, not ones that wait to be told what they "should' do. I want them to recognize for themselves what they should do and have the confidence and courage to do it.
I’ve learned the only way to stop criticism is to stop doing things that are worthwhile. Both these guys are my heros and get a lot of firing line criticism I’m sure. I asked a mutual friend of Kurt’s a while ago what he did when people were knocking him down and he said he takes a moment to feel the emotion, see if there is any truth in it that can help him be a better man and then steps into Warrior mode and soldiers forward. Having a strong Band of Brothers to feed my soul with positivity and strength has helped immensely. Come to AZ bootcamp mentioned by Kurt and hang out with us and see just how good life is when surrounded by men who are seeking Christ, praying for each other, and have each others backs. Greg, would love to see you there too.
oh my. i still need to watch the video. but these comments make clear that Isaiah has come knocking. I wonder what April General Conference will hold for us.
Yes! I’ve been struggling with my feelings of returning to church after years of inactivity. This was one of the main barriers Ive had. I felt like it didn’t offer me much as a man other than hand me an assignment and preach to me about how I need to be kind, gentle, meek, obedient, etc. As a man that makes me feel like I’m resigning myself to a life of feeling “dead inside”. Thank you so much. This makes me want to come back to church and help rekindle an atmosphere where men get the attention and encouragement necessary to become actual red-blooded, excited about life, MEN
This talk is just more of the same: "we need to do better". But you start with : "we need to BE...." this or that, and of course always come straight back to "well so how do we DO that", then out comes another list of stuff you have to "DO". Of course IN ADDITION to the load you're already carrying and can't just stop carrying. It assumes you already bring home a nice paycheck that keeps the family and wife minimally satisfied, and you'll keep going to all your meetings and service projects, but now take on another load of tasks designed to bring out your "masculinity". All while a whole generation is struggling just to find that nice paycheck that secures homeownership and the somewhat satisfied wife who can't find any "real men" and all without tearing down any of the stereotypes of what "men" SHOULD be, but just ADDING to them. This talk, in the end, does nothing but INCREASE the burden on men. It reminds me so much of taxes. They NEVER go down, but they always have yet another excuse to raise them, supposedly in order to save the minimal services we have, while you actually get less services and more excuses from the government. This is the same: It's a way of saying "men just aren't enough anymore, because you know, the poor women are complaining that there are no good men around." Oh really? Are there any "good women", or have they all become only fans spoiled rotten whiners by social media, insisting they somehow "deserve" the top 0.001% of men, and shouldn't have to "settle" for anything but the best of the best, without bringing anything to the table themselves. What's really driving this??
I heard 10 seconds of this and immediately felt heard for the first time in a long time. I would love for our seers to not (like it appears to me) only react but to get ahead of the struggles we feel and support us. Just to be heard for me might be support enough. But I lament cause I am heard by two guys I’ve never heard of before and not the men that are suppose to be my shepherds.
I learned over time that certain (most) church brethren / leaders, were willing to listen to you more to sus out what you thought so they could check up on your 'non- church' thinking or beliefs and as such were at best well meaning policemen. They were not able to be your friend because much of their 'testimony' was attained by learning some good principles and additions to their soul's life, but then mindlessly accepting all other church teachings as certain facts and calling this whole collective of concepts 'knowledge'. They were not free to, nor were they ever encouraged to engage in independent thought. I am not talking about advocating proud or rebellious questionings: - but rather suggest that many are called to rise within the church before they have cut their teeth on the disciplines of character including the disciplines of sound reasoning. So they have much 'knowledge' to questions their soul was not asking not were they willing to stake their soul on to struggle to find out. It is a fact to my mind that just as Jesus was allowed to learn certain things 'by the things which He suffered', that so must many of us too: - in fact this is necessary. I will be forever grateful to certain brethren (and they are few) who in leadership positions in the church could see the sincerety of a soul's heart beyond all else. Such individuals reflect and display the true love of Christ, without which the world and the church are lost. It seems to me that just because a ward needs a bishop or the stake needs a president that there is always someone to call to fill the role. This individual so called and set apart no doubt grows as they apply themselves to the task: but many don't have the wisdom or life experience as a servant of God to where their very best will allow them to effectively help those the are supposed to lead: so they folliw the 'church manual', cling to the prophet etc., but have not had an original thought themselves too much. Better perhaps to have 'acting bishops' etc., until enough real men of God have been fired in the kiln of life (under God). Thank you for your effort to read this far.
What’s up Aaron?! Hope you’re well! This is the 2nd time I’ve listened to this cause it’s great and saw your comment. I agree with you! I’m serving as EQ President and love this podcast. As I read your comment and as I’m serving as President, I’d love for elders to give me suggestions like you mentioned. If you feel they aren’t being proactive and should address things differently, let them know. I would definitely not be offended and would adjust our discussions. I’m definitely going to be and have been adjusting our activities and meetings. Good luck out there.
I had the exact same response to the first few seconds, it hit me like lightning. I deal with so much pain and grief over these issues and I agree with you that our leaders are lagging behind these issues. It almost feels as if they are even promoting the problem rather than striving to fix it. I still wait on the Lord with faith in these things. Wishing you the best man.
I can’t help but remember the words of our prophet, reminding us that we won’t survive spiritually without personal revelation. Imagine how men and women could move forward together, following the spirit, making friends, hosting activities, etc? The church doesn’t have to do this FOR us. The task is on us. Follow the spirit, be WORTHY of the spirit and watch the transformations happen.
The church has beaten down fathers who seek revelation for their families. It is either personal revelation or general authority revelation that is acceptable, but fatherhood is a threat to local control. When a father says his family will be doing something different than the congregation, the church sends men across that farther's threshold to tell him some other revelation supercedes his.
It's not just a problem in the church. This is happening in all of America and Europe and we have to realize that we're up against powerful cultural forces that want men to be weak and flimsy husks. It'll require serious effort to reverse the trajectory we're on as a people.
It's political. And no one wants to get political, so it's not goin to happen. This is all just talk and pretend. "oh dear, what shall we do? Goodness gracious, well let's discuss it, but make sure we don't offend anyone's political ideology. So.....once again, what can we do about. Well blablablabalblablablablab....and you know blablablablablablablaaaa, and bla blablabaaa, so I suppose blablablaaa. What do you think? Tell me your feeeeelings? do you agree? Oh no let's not offend the politically sensitive individuals in the audience, so blablablaaaa.........."
Thank you both for discussing this. As a woman in the church I feel like this is extremely important right now. Very good insights and points, thanks for sharing it with us.
We need strong, diligent, spiritual, masculine men in the church...men who understand what it really means to honor their priesthood and are purposeful in it's use. I'm incredibly grateful to be married to a man like this. He loves and he leads.
Leah. Yes, amen, absolutely! I couldn't agree more with your comment. We also need strong, diligent, spiritual feminine women in the church...women who understand what it really means to honor the priesthood and are purposeful in supporting, encouraging, and uniting with their husband in its proper use, to bless the family. Just the fact that you recognize your husband as that type of man and express your gratitude for him being that man, shows that you are that type of woman also. It sounds like you are "equally yoked" in your marriage. It sounds like you and your husband have learned and understand that marriage and family life is a team sport that is designed to unite a husband & wife, rather than make them competitors. I compliment you both and admire what you and your husband have. May God bless both of you as you continue to stand united in leading and caring for your family.
“Wing Night” started as a group of EQ friends from our ward would meet up at the local wing diner every few weeks. It was usually an impromptu set up when wings were half price:) It became so popular that friends who were not members of the church got wind of it and loved showing up to chat and just unwind with their male friends. Men need each other! It got so popular that at times there was no room to sit. This was a wonderful missionary opportunity and to this day non member friends and neighbours still text my husband to meet up for “Wing Night”. Ladies, encourage your husbands to get out and be with their buddies! They desperately need it.
We started breakfast burritos for men first thing on Saturday mornings for guys to sneak out while the kids are still lounging around and hang out. Every second Saturday of the month at my house. Casual and has had great turnout so far. Will definitely give the wing idea a spin when guys want to switch it up for a weeknight. Thanks for sharing this.
Many would say that it takes them away from focusing on their family. That having a 'guys night out' is counter productive to being a good father. I don't agree but could easily find many that would espouse this idea.
Can you get this in front of the brethren? i was VERY UPSET when priesthood session was changed!!! I felt like the Church was acting in acquiescence to pressures of the world saying hey look we're not male shovanists NO we NEED WARRIORS OF THE LORDS TYPE AND THAT WAS OUR MEETING!!!!
Hi. My husband passed 1 1/2 years ago. Every Conference he and his boys went out for dinner, after attending conference I thought it was terrible when they stopped that session.
Even setting up tables and chairs or helping with a move alongside my brothers gives me a fierce joy that I crave. When I was a teenager I didn't especially like being called to help with moves, but something kept me showing up for them, and in time I realized what it was: that working side by sice with other men in a common purpose. I don't even have to particularly get along with or personally like the other men I'm working with. If I'm working alongside them, I'm happy.
This is the most important podcast you’ve had. Sadly EQ doesn’t offer much to the men. We spend about an hour and a half together each month and hear from the same four guys about their missions and great spiritual achievements. We haven’t had any kind of gathering in over a year.
I think the church should bring back some type of athletics League or high adventure program including elders and young men. But personally I feel like the church should adopt a young men's and elders judo / jiu-jitsu program. It is a perfect metaphor for the battle of mortality while maintaining self-control and self-respect.
The church is constantly taking the young men and the leaders on high adventure outings and the ward members are constantly asked to donate to their outings.
@@bobrussell8339 I guess so. The youth, mostly the boys are pretty spoiled in my area. They are taken to many national parks areas to go on high adventure outings. The ward and stake are trying to raise money again for another one.
This conversation is deeply frustrating. I’m now a single mom who was married in the temple. I have seen and felt the effects personally for my own family due to the many ills men deal with these days. I feel for men. It cannot be easy to be a man in this climate. At the same time, I have sons that I am raising. I want them to feel confident and empowered as sons of God. I don’t want to emasculate them. But what does that look like? Church ball was not the answer for my husband. He loved playing, but it did nothing for his inner struggles. I don’t know that the answer is more programs for men. I’m not saying that there is no place for activities for men, but I think the root of the problem is so much deeper. It’s makes me think of the quote from Ezra Taft Benson, “The Lord works from the inside out. The world works from the outside in. The world would take people out of the slums. Christ takes the slums out of people, and then they take themselves out of the slums.” There are many other women I know who are carrying the heavy load of single motherhood because their husbands have been led by worldly desires in various ways. It is the times we are living in. Only Christ has the power to change our hearts-if we ALLOW him. Regarding masculinity, was Christ masculine? I love the lyrics from the song Gethsemane, “The hardest thing that ever was done, The greatest pain that ever was known, The biggest battle that ever was won- This was done by Jesus! The fight was won by Jesus!” But what did that look like? What is masculinity? Yes, I want my sons to know that they have power within them to do incredibly hard and challenging things, but more importantly, through Christ they can do all things. What does that look like? It may be different for each of us, but I think one of the problems may be that we all see masculinity so differently. Why not look to the source of all truth for what that is and what that should look like? Clearly I don’t have the answers. All I can do is pray and continue to trust in the Lord and act in faith.
I don't have answers. But I do know the problem relates to a refusal to acknowledge that men and women are fundamentally different creatures. We all need to respect that. Our Heavenly parents are fundamentally different. Gender confusion and feminism are Satan's prime tools to destroy us.
Talking about structure (min. 29:30): I felt lost and a little bit abandoned, because I realized I had been viewing life as a series of gates on a conveyor belt. Age 8, get baptized, become a Cub Scout. Age 9 - a Bear Cub Scout; 10 - Webelos Scout; 11 - Boy Scout; 12 - deacon; 14 - teacher; 16 - priest; 18, graduate high school; 19 mission. Then, there were no more gates. I just fell off the conveyor belt onto the floor. I didn't know where to go to figure it out. I'm still trying to figure it out 30 years later. It is hard to connect with other men to figure it out.
This may be why the new youth program encourages individuals to set their own goals rather than following a predetermined path of goals so that they have the tools and skills necessary to do this when they become adults.
Please keep discussing this! This conversation needs to be heard far and wide in the church. I feel a personal urgency. I have felt like the church is FAILING my husband, for years. (And subsequently worried for my sons). There is a lack of spirituality because he feels he does not like church. He was converted to the church, a church with a different vibe. It all started with being invited to play church basketball.
My father and my family converted in 1976 in Connecticut. There were lots of factors. One of them that he credits to his joining the church was church sports. And yes, these were chippy and feisty at many times. However, it was the first that interacted with religious people that were like him. He was a church goer most of his life, and the men were greatly outnumbered by the women the men that attended were soft, subdued and of the Ned Flanders type. Witnessing these examples both good and bad played a key role in his conversion. My dad was a great example to me then as well as today. He has stayed true to the faith over the years.
Because of the competitive and aggressive nature of sports men--especially young men--get good socialization from it if care is taken to emphasis sportsmanship.
I love this episode. As a man who has been thru a 3 year addiction addiction recovery program that changed my life & taught me how to be a true version of a man. I fully agree with being real, confident & courageous. Most may mistake this conversation of being a macho man! That's not what being strong is. Willing to be honest, not live in denial, stand for truth, be an example of genuineness. To me, these are what a man...a true man of God is. I'm not an outdoorsman...never really cared much for going camping & hiking. It simply isn't me. However, I believe that these men retreats can hold the same effect by doing different things than going into nature. For example...I once held a men's Saturday get together where we talked about passion, courage, & never giving up. I played a awesome song by skillet - "lions" then shared the story of Sorichio Honda. The founder of Honda & all he went through to achieve his dreams. Love his quote. "Dare to do the things others only dream of." Then we played a race simulator on a 100 foot screen & competed with one another. This allowed me to share my passion of the automotive industry & what i do for a living because God guided me to do what I love with cars. I have a goal to do this at a real race track one day! Me and three friends (brothers) get together once a week and have a real, fun, and engaging place online as we play video games together. Using team work, competing in a healthy way & engaging. Video games are like anything else. They can be used in a bad way, but they aren't inherently bad. My wife fully supports thos because she sees how the connection with men helps me. I'm a bishop & I have openly shared my story over the pulpit & its amazing to me the men & women who come up thanking me that I'm so real because it gives them permission to be real & it gives the men in our ward the example of how we need to live who we are. Not some fake facade! I also grew up without a father so showing my two boys what a true man is. Burns in my chest! That comes by being there with my wife and showing them how I treat her, love her so much, & we have honest and respecting conversations.
This topic was one of the main things I thought a lot about when I heard the church planned to separate from the Boy Scouts of America. I don't think I fully appreciated scouting while I was a part of it as I should have. I feel I was able to benefit by getting involved in what a young man naturally needs to prepare for being an adult man. Looking back, I believe scouts also provided my adult leaders many of these masculine opportunities you mentioned in this segment. It's very sad to me that, while I was able to experience the best of scouts, my son's will never be able to fully experience and appreciate what that program (joined with the LDS church) meant to me. I guess each generation has one thing or another that they have seen lost in the changing culture as time goes on. As the scout breakup was announced, I was under the impression that the church was going to create an alternative program and was excited to see a program come out and exceed expectations and accomplish what the BSA could never accomplish due to those limitations and various problems under their watch. I understand that President Nelson directed that we need to focus on a church endorsing a gospel centered home (not the other way around) and I definitely agree with that model. I also feel we've lost some of that needed network to get out and be men, especially since COVID.
My experience in scouting started with a scout camp in utah, son came back ans said I'm never going again! .. no explanation til the next year when he told me his scout master expected all the boys to get in his sleeping bag 🙄; next was his first R rated movie at leaders house - in basement and other boys "took turns with daughter during movie"; next daughter had first abortion at age 14; went on YSA river run when stake brought more rafts than allowed; stake pres councillor stopped n almost arrested for taking youth down river more times than allowed ... that is tip of iceberg ... all happened in Utah.
@@bettescott950 I hope that you’re exaggerating about the sleeping bag. That’s disgusting. Why weren’t there two leaders present? Rafting story is funny actually, the R movie issue is maddening but normal, but the taking turns with the daughter thing, did this really happen?!? Holy smokes people are messed up. I’m sure the adults were charged for sexual abuse in both cases with the daughter and sleeping bag?
I honestly think this problem could be improved if missions had far less hand-holding. If missions once again became a rite-of-passage, as well as an ecclesiastical priesthood duty, requiring physical and mental rigours, that you did not have relief from in any way. I always noticed how boys came back from dangerous foreign missions as men, while those of us who served closer to home, or in the Euro-Anglosphere more broadly, often return untempered and less formidable. If the Church would cause those from North America to serve abroad, and those abroad to serve in North America, it would serve a two-fold purpose. It would force maturity upon our pampered North American men, and educate missionaries from developing nations on how to operate the Church. Both segments of the Church have some real problems. We have become apathetic, pampered and lacking in formidable male leadership, they have issues of apostate practice and membership retention. The stuff I've heard from guys who served in Zimbabwe, Mexico, the Philippines and Bolivia, from alcoholic Bishops to serially adulterating Elder's Quorum Presidents to taking "loans" from the day's tithing donations. All done with impunity and being shocked the American missionaries had a problem with it. The culture of the Church needs to be re-entrenched internationally. Those outside the bubble need to come in and see that it is possible to have a functioning, relatively repentant and obedient Church population, and those inside need to get out into the dangerous wide world and bring back maturity so we don't die out due to a demographic catastrophe. Both parts can learn from the other, and I think they were for the earlier part of the Church's history, but since we started sending people on missions to their "own lands", we've lost something important. Not enough of our young men are serving missions anyhow. We have about the same number of missionaries now, as we did in the 1980s iirc, despite the Church being many times larger now than it was then in terms of on-the-record membership. If boys are not tried in fire, they don't become men, and we've been turning down the heat far too much recently.
I would say the mission is still very much a rite of passage. The reason there are less missionaries is because there are less active young men. The church/life long members might not realize it but asking people to serve for two years away from everything they know is a HUGE sacrifice. If the young men don’t have testimonies they aren’t going to be willing to make that sacrifice and they don’t care what the church says about it. Also I think the missionaries we have now are overall better quality. My mission had half the missionaries it used to have compared to before COVID and was still just as effective(in terms of numbers). If you’re an active member I would say that the expectation to go is still just as strong especially with recent conferences. I don’t know when you served but I definitely felt the pressure to serve still. It was both a good and terrible experience that I would never do again but I’m glad I went. Also I don’t necessarily agree on sending lots of missionaries more foreign(I served in Latin America btw) the ideal is to have a mission more of people that know the culture, language and the people. And I assure you just because you go state side doesn’t mean that you have an easy mission, I’ve heard plenty of stories. The real test of a mission is more the spiritual side and especially when you get home applying the things to your own life.
North Americans, especially utahns are very pampered regardless of the church. TIK-TOK, youtube, facebook, instagram, twitter, telegraph, have made americans a bunch of whiny ass sissies. I work at a treatment center for youth with drug, alcohol, and sex addiction and the first thing we do... cut ALL social media out. They do not have access to smart phones or laptops. These boys have had everything handed to them in life. Social media has done so much damage to society because it allows me to say whatever the hell i want without any repercussions. Social media has ruined both male and female roles in the world. social media has caused more depression, suicides, and mental illness than we give it credit.
I don't think much of what you stated is either true or helpful. We don't need to re-entrench culture. Our culture is part of the problem, not the solution.
What an incredible subject to consider! This is a critical topic. We need to spend more time and thought to create venues and incredible adventures that have purpose. Keep talking. Keep bringing this topic up. For the sake of our men and our sons to have purpose and true meaning. Our men are such an under accessed resource. One of our greatest.
@@TheArtOfNurturingHearts Obviously everyone needs to turn to God to find purpose, but when you use the word "only" you make it waaaaaaay too simplistic.
I left the LDS church three years ago. I experienced the effects of becoming the submissive Mr. Nice Guy. Part of which included heightened anxiety and insecurity in my relationships (which is not attractive). On the other side of my journey in my post-Mormon world many of the criticisms include highlighting and deconstructing hierarchy, patriarchy, and toxic masculinity. Thus providing insight to me that it's useful to not take any virtue or concept to extremes. I also grew up with a father who didn't have a father, who didn't know how to father - he found his identity in Mormonism and is kind and submissive before anything else. Kindness is a wonderful trait and so is courage, strength, assertiveness, and standing for values of dignity, respect, love, safety, protection, and family. I've been attempting to carve out my balancing point with masculinity. I used to float day by day in my perceived role as a man (i.e. Mr. Nice Guy) whereas now I take ownership of my finances, my fitness, my education and critical thinking, and my relationships. Rather than have my first move be to defer I now utilize dialogue and consider what I want and what others want. I aim for collaborative and connected - and I don't hit the bullseye every time and that's okay. I do take it upon myself to learn how to improve. As Kurt points out, connection leads to developing insights related to mental and emotional wellness that can be used daily to provide, protect, and connect. I believe many men in the LDS church and out of the LDS church are looking to find relationships that are supportive of a fulfilling life.
Nearly all men in the Western world struggle with that lack of meaning. That’s why Jordan Peterson is selling out arenas in hundreds of cities across the globe- just to listen to him speak. That’s why John Vervaeke, professor of Psychology and a cognitive neuroscientist at the U of Toronto, has a 50 part series here on RU-vid called “The Meaning Crisis”, that has millions of views. Those of us in the church need to do better at discussing this, both with our fellow brethren as well as those not of our faith. The truth about meaning is that it comes as we pursue worthwhile goals - the adventure of our life - and as we build genuine human connections.
What were you submissive to? Hope you don't mind me asking. I ask because being submissive to "the church" or other men will become a nightmare over time. Submitting to God, on the other hand, is entirely different and is a spiritual act, not a social act. If you submit to God, you will actually end up being more secure, happy, at peace, courageous, wise, fearless, kind, humble, and even powerful. Why? Because God has every good quality to the highest degree, and He will grant you some of His power. But He can't do it unless you submit.
Not sure of the solutions you present here, but I agree with the diagnosis. Adventure trips and sports aren't a great fit for all (or even most men) that I know. So it still misses the mark a bit, but this is such an important topic that I hope you keep talking about it. Ultimately men need to know that they are filling an important role and that they are needed-- which they are.
It's not about the activity, necessarily, though those are great, it's about the hallway conversations, the conversations on the bench or the hike, it's the conversation in the ride to and from, or over the cars in the parking lot after.
@@zionssuburb Wow, this is 100% correct. Study after study and study show that as men age, they become increasingly islolated, they lack real connection in their lives, and this leads to all sorts of remedies to cope.
Another thing I don't like is when church leaders and society at large joke about the wife always being right or being the "better half". Too many women, even in the church, are internalizing that messaging and always want to get their way. Usually I'm happy to let my wife get the things she wants but every once in a while I need her to listen to me when I need to speak up about something.
Amen brother! This idea of "happy wife, happy life," doesn't work if everything is deferred just to pacify one side of a marriage. Marriage is supposed to be a union of being equally yoked to pull together in the work of family. If happy wife, happy life is the rule, then pretty soon she's likely to feel entitled and he's likely to feel used. That's not a recipe for happiness or growth.
I think this is an important topic but I wonder how much of it is simply a problem of men Western cultures and not necessarily a problem about the church. I wonder if this is a trend that people are seeing in less developed countries in the Church. Although that wouldn't even be a good indication since the U.S. exports its culture more than anything else and the culture is showing emasculated men. Having said that, I think there's a fine line that should be treaded here. In my opinion, some of the solutions offered here are more worldly than spiritual. The problems seem more spiritual to me. These solutions discussed here would help but not to change the inner man. When the scriptures refer to strong men (in a positive aspect) they very often are referring to the spiritual strength of that man (i.e. Moses, Nephi, etc). These are men who knew the Lord and their relationship to Him. The fathers of the people of Ammon (Anti-Nephi-Lehis) were strong but they gave up everything, even their lives, to live peacefully with those around them and to protect their families in the only way that really works - through praying to the Lord to bless and protect their wives and children as they themselves were cut down. Men nowadays are dead inside b/c they are going through the motions and don't know what they want or believe in and Satan has blinded them just like the rest of society.
Western culture is in crisis and has lost it's way. We're living through this debacle which will be sorted out because of the very nature of this world.
My husband and I are watching and we love all of your topics ! My husband said the men in the church have had some important things taken away ….. like the Scouting Program ……. And a lot of activities that the church had for the youth when he was young like basketball and softball ! Another thing that has changed through the years is we don’t see the leaders stepping up and being strong with what is going on in the world today ……. They are very quit ……. Geez 🙄 and your right where are the men and where are the leaders in the church ! To much milk toast …… We love the Gospel and the church but we feel like masculinity in the church and society is disappearing !!
Personally, I'm happy the scout program is gone. Too many people doing it because they were supposed to, not because they wanted (on leader and boy side) We are going camping tonight with young men - we don't need scouts for that!
You both hit the nail on the head with your comments, thank you! It’s not a popular stance but it needs to be talked about. Raised by a young widow with no male father figure, I now love relying on my husband to tackle the challenges that are traditionally masculine in nature. I can probably figure out how to change the oil on my car, but I really don’t want to. I’d rather my husband just do it and I’ll make that sandwich thank you very much. Brethren, if you want a challenge, jump into a home renovation project and finish it. Your wife will love you for it and you’ll be quite impressed with yourself too:)
Amen!! And watch for who in the audience is checked out or looking uncomfortable. I have a prayer group I ask to pray for the hearts of the men when I’m assigned to teach and to check my ego at the door and go after them like a Lion. One of my favorite titles for Christ is Lion of Judah. When I finally let Him in, He ignited me in ways I didn’t expect, and He invites us to be the same in battling for the hearts of other men and our families.
Im a young man (21). In a recent stake priesthood meeting the theme was centered around this General Conference talk. I’m so glad that the stake addressed the issues facing men right now. I’ve also had my fair share of men’s activities being canceled while the women’s activities go unhindered. In my current ysa ward the women had their campout. A few weeks later there was stake campout (for men and women). But no campout was ever planned this summer for the men of the ysa ward. It sucked
Few man ever told their wife she couldn't attend a RS activity, but tons of women have told their husbands they weren't allowed to attend an EC event, especially if it only served the men and didn't force the men to serve a single mother or widow.
My ward had an annual 'Man Camp' every summer until covid. It wasn't a formal church activity, just the men deciding on their own to go do it, every guy 12 and over welcome.
That reminds me of one family in an old ward who’s daughter was insulted that there was a camp out just for the guys to commemorate the restoration of the Aaronic priesthood and demanded that the girls should be able to go too. So it was announced the the daughters were also welcome. What a load of crap.
@@thunderandrain09 Our stake holds separate YM and YW camps each summer. The church even owns a campground a few hours away and July is reserved for YW camps only. It's a pretty nice place with showers, flush toilets etc. They guys prefer to rough it out in the wilds. Having YW and YM camping together seems like a bad idea to me, and likely against church policy.
Today is your day! Go fight your battle, win or lose…do it with honor, courage and 100% commitment. If you fail, then you will fail with your head held high!knowing you are among the few that knows what it feels like to be alive! Risk is a must in anything worth doing.
If you stand up for what you think is correct you get called passive aggressive 😔 families are failing throughout the world because of the teachings from the great and spacious building.
I love this topic. It is a tragedy that we don't take the initiative to embrace other men and build a brotherhood. This is something I'm going to work on. Thank you for this discussion.
I was a bit disappointed with this conversation. I will be the first to agree with the idea that second wave feminism has destroyed much goodness in men and much of the positive strength that masculinity can offer the world. However, this felt a little like the pendulum swinging too far the other way. It felt a little reactionary. I didn’t hear enough reliance on the scriptures and modern prophets to outline the problem and to chart a course. There is plenty of righteous masculinity in the scriptures and plenty of battles to fight and bigger stories to take part in within the plan of salvation. From the beginning, the imagery of a war in Heaven has been evoked. Let’s make sure we ground manhood in the context of the plan. Also, Gods version of this trait or that is usually somewhere in the middle of two extremes to which Satan seeks to push us. It seems to me that Christian men need to know how to be Captain Moroni and how to lead by “persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; By kindness, and pure knowledge”. They need to know how to emulate the temple clearing Savior and the weep with Mary and Martha Savior. The big challenge is being capable of both yet knowing when to be the one and when to be the other. We also need to remember that there is true variation in how masculinity can be expressed. We need to remember that yes men held the ground at Thermopylae, but but men also wrote the Brandenberg Concertos and sculpted the Pieta. Just a couple of thoughts.
Much how like Moroni wrote those incredible words and may have camped alone for decades wondering daily when his life would end.... But also was a stone cold killer on the battlefield. Christ's counsel was to be complete.... Even as our Father in Heaven is complete.
Brethren, I feel this in my bones. I have felt this level of isolation, loneliness, and deep depression. I love Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. I love the Church. I love President Nelson and all of the General Athorities. I want to love every member of my Ward, and I jump at the chance to go and serve and help anyone, not just members of my Ward. However, none of it seems to really be edifying. Like stated, I only feel a deeper guilt trip at the end of the day, at the end of Elders Quorum, at the end of my meetings for my callings, at the end of Church every Sunday. I've not broken commandments, I've not broken covenants, I'm happily married and sealed in the Temple, have a beautiful daughter, and generally see all of the blessings that Heavenly Father bestows upon me and my family. What I do not feel is the love returned to me from those whom I would like to build friendships with. I don't blame those other brothers; I blame our current social culture. Time is always under stress; what do I do with this small amount of time I have?
Change always presents a whole new set of problems to solve. If we really understood our prophetic leadership better we would recognize how proper ministering as individuals could address the varied, different needs of every member, men included. Old men like me can't do the sports & scouting anymore, nor can EQ activities meet our needs. The young ones need activities, a listening ear, compassionate service opportunities, connection and heavenly relationship. All of these needs are best addressed by individual ministering as the Lord now allows all to fight our own battles, set off on our own adventures and Love the beautiful eternal relationships that each of us can build among family, friends and community. The Lord is helping each of us to become stronger and more able to cope with the changes that are quickly destroying foundations we used to rely on. Opportunity is all about us, if we but open our eyes to see what the Lord would have us become.
Exactly! The church is headed in the right direction. The goal is for us to learn to govern ourselves. Ministering truly is the answer to so many of these issues. For one, it takes our selfish natural-man inward focus and turns it outward. The more we seek to connect with others and bring them happiness, the happier we ourselves will be.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” Strong men emerge from pressure to withstand opposition and survive hardship. It is my opinion that hobby-based activities will not strengthen men…it entertains them. Strength comes from recognizing a need and/or suffering, assuming responsibility (taking ownership), picking up something heavy and carrying it! Assuming responsibility for the welfare of others who cannot provide for themselves gives purpose to life. The kingdom has been given to the Church, but the men in the Church are not assuming ownership and the responsibility that comes with ownership. They go to church to receive, not to give. They are not shepherds; they are sheep.
@kurtfrancom is my hero. He’s a true Superman battling for the hearts of men. Thank you for having the courage to speak the words my heart needed to hear.
Not having a "common cause", as Greg articulated, is something I've thought about a lot recently. Why do we as a quorum even exist? We go to our separate jobs, raise our separate families, and avoid interaction with other quorum members for the entire week. The odd service opportunity comes along intermittently and requires a few volunteers at most. And ministering, in my experience, is working even less-effectively than home-teaching in terms of gluing the quorum together. I've since decided that the church doesn't really have a cause for most of us, and that we are left to ourselves to find one. Unfortunately, this seems to mean in practice that many are taking up the secular causes of the world, while others drift into distractions like video games or media consumption. I believe an adjacent problem is that government has taken over much of the role churches used to have in society, especially with regards to education and temporal welfare. It used to be that all education and other services for the less-advantaged were done entirely through Christian charity. Today, public schools handle the education for everyone, and other government programs handle the rest. Imagine if, for instance, everyone in the ward decided to home school their kids and meet together in groups. I believe we'd have a lot more common cause! Or, imagine if we took part in some kind of longer-term welfare or education project in our local communities.
It's a heart issue. No one can fix this but individuals themselves. Quorums encourage connection, but connection will never take place until each man/woman decided to initiate connection with others--until their mindset changes from taking to giving. And is not our common cause to build the kingdom of God?
Just one word to add: Courage - courage to face the lord and plead for forgiveness, courage to seek the truth and not just assume it, courage to stand up to the narcissists and self-righteousness and judgmentalism that creeps in, and courage to find our own purpose and identity with guidance directly from God. Be courageous, brothers!
Bravo, excellent discussion brethren. I hope we can wake up and have some zeal in life . Move forward with purpose and be who we were born to be. I m guilty of the nice guy syndrome I hope I can change. I feel like we can do good and be good by being real . I can see the Lord needs the real us. Not Mr nice guy. That being said we still make good choices.
Good and a much-needed episode! This needs to discussed at church in Elders Quorum, but I'm sure it won't. One huge pet peeve of mine is the passive, milquetoast men in the church frequently refer to their wife to make the decisions and say "I better ask the boss first." No woman wants to be married to a man-child where she has to be in the masculine role in marriage or mother him. These guys really should grow some and man up and take the lead. Being a "good man" is not the same as being good at being a man. I'm so glad my son decided to join the USMC rather than go on a church mission. He went in a teenage boy and truly became a masculine man after his 4 years.
I respectfully disagree that no woman wants to be married to a man child. Many women have controlling personalities and they like being in charge of the marriage. The man will often cave in because the woman will take away what he wants. In fact, I live in Utah and many of the LDS men I know are very passive with respect to their wife. They think they are being respectful and loving, but they are actually timid. The women love it because they get whatever they want.
@@kevins4254 usually what happens is the wife hooks the man by relying on him and praising his manhood. Later she becomes controlling and demanding, then lastly she demands complete controll. If the husband resists, she brings in the lawyers.
I joined the Corps right out of High School and never looked back. My middle son just finished Army basic. Missions aren’t for everyone, despite what is said. But it takes all kinds and I see a lot of value in Missions as well. Regardless, most young men need to head out on an adventure after graduation and before marriage.
My grandpa, who was an amazing man, even though he wasn't a member of the church, had a monthly get-together with his buddies grandma referred to as, Beer and Pizza. I can't tell you how many times I shared this with my EQP in presidency meetings. Call it Beer & Pizza or Green Jello & Funeral Potatoes, bottom line the men aren't MAKING time for BRO-TIME. It frustrates the hell out of me, but it just falls on deaf ears. "We should plan a service project of some kind" would make me want to pull out my wiskers! Services opportunities happen automatically!!! We need that adventure...that time to let our hair down and just be men. I loved the discussion. My hope is dudes will wake the heck up and change this, its on us alone.
Great discussion I enjoyed it and am motivated by it. I agree with Kurt's pinned comment though too. I just sent this to a friend of mine and explained to him that this reminds me of what I'll refer to as the zone conference effect. I remember as a missionary getting pumped up from a zone conference but transferring that motivation to real work in the field was difficult. I'm motivated by this but I'm still going to struggle with the now what.
My experience is that a large percentage of church members are sheeple. The bishop sets the tone for the ward and the efforts of the members are limited by that. I don't expect anyone to agree with me on that, but that is my experience. Individual accountability is required for our own progress, but when local leadership does not do things the Lord's way, things get stupid. Weak local leaders make weak sheeple weaker, and the church as a whole suffers. Men and women who stand for something and are clear about it are to be feared and avoided by today's standards.
True as a rule of numbers. But we can all give input and lead. We all have a calling as members of the church and with an understanding of the Plan of Salvation.
Amen. It’s frustrating that in every way we are to be fully obedient and do the work but with one arm tied behind our backs. There’s always unnecessary limitations. Maybe it’s because of inexperience from leaders or lack of initiative or fear.
Best EQ activity I attended was a shooting night at a brother's house who built a gun range under his back yard, with a BBQ above ground. A few years later I was now EQ president and held a similar activity. Mine wasn't as great, but still lots of fun. Expensive, but fun. If I were to do it again I would plan a lot better and make sure the potluck wasn't all just bags of chips. We had a lot of chips, but not much else other than the burgers. lol
I agree with a lot of what was said - I find myself attracted to men who do in fact have their own life, have their own things going for them, enjoys spending time with his friends, is comfortable in his own masculinity. Those things are very attractive. Encouraging the men in our lives to go after the adventure in their hearts is so important because the epidemic of how “dead” men are nowadays really does worry me. What there really needs to be is balance. I don’t know what needs to be done to help resolve this problem, but I just try to love and encourage the men in my life as much as I can 💖
Many years ago, when I was a new RS member, just out of young women's, I said, Meekness is not weakness. The Saviour was not weak, he was meek. I was criticized by the teacher, so this line of thought has been happening for decades.
I guess that I'm a lucky man in that I find adventure in dishes and pulling weeds. I call it Danny Tanner fun. I have zero interest in traveling anywhere without my wife. Why wouldn't I take my favorite person in the world on all of my adventures? The only thing that I occasionally do without my wife is go and watch a football game but only because she really doesn't want to go but that's a once every five years or so activity. I don't feel alone. I feel completely manly and my trophy is my family.
"I have zero interest in traveling anywhere without my wife. Why wouldn't I take my favorite person in the world on all of my adventures?" Oh my goodness, finally. I'd been reading all the comments under this video, and literally gave up on men in the church. All the women-blaming and obvious dislike of their own wives and everyone else's, is so discouraging. But then I read your comment. Thank you for being a shining example of the masculine, kind, thoughtful men that women are looking for.
@@memorex202 Agreed! Resisting the world. Taking personal accountability for one's actions. Focusing on family. Sacrificing for the greater good. These are the things that true masculinity are made of.
I definitely DON'T have a husband who ever says, "I just do what my wife wants" 😂. We are both pretty determined people! (But going on 28 years of marriage)
Excellent discussion. Hugh Nibley made an interesting comment about this topic in his BYU Last Lecture Series talk in 1971. He states: "If a guy can't break everything around the house and yard, drown kittens, shoot birds, cut down the apple tree, take the baby buggy apart, stick things in the piano, throw rocks at bottles, what can a guy do?That is a good question, and the way we answer that is a measure of our fitness for the kingdom of heaven.If we advise the little fellow to acquire more sophisticated tastes and follow our example, to seek his diversions more constructively as we do, watching westerns on TV, going hunting, playing golf, going to football games or X-rated movies, or driving a car, he can protest that such activities differ from his own only in being more passive and less imaginative, but really they are quite as trivial and immature and unproductive as his. We might then admonish him to hard work.Pope Gregory VII wrote a letter to the Bishop of Rheims in the eleventh century in which he told how the barons of the time were literally destroying Europe in thousands of private wars and feuds and raids on each others castles and lands and serfs, and how when he protested what they were doing, they asked him in all seriousness, "if we don't do this, what else is there for us to do? For what other purpose were gentlemen placed upon this earth? What else can a normal man possibly want to do?" One of things that we don't do is teach doctrine that expands the mind. We kind of gloss over doctrine in our quorums, but never go deep and inspire men to search it out at a personal level that will expand their horizons. If someone knows something that we don't, we simply say that's interesting and let it go, If we examine 4th Nephi closely we will see that that is what caused the decline and decay of that Zion society. As Hugh Nibley calls it "lazy thinking." To make everything about masculinity and being a real man come to pass, I believe that in addition to your guests ideas, we really need to expand our minds and not treat as trite the principles of study, ponder, and pray. There is a wealth of knowledge waiting for us to acquire if we only would seek it out, learn it, and share it. In so doing I believe that Boyd k. Packers statement (I paraphrase) regarding "the study of the scriptures will do more to change behaviour than the study of behaviour will change it."
This describes me exactly. While I understand we have people in church at varying levels of understanding and testimony, unfortunately we always teach to the lowest common denominator. I leave EQ lessons, and often Gospel Doctrine, feeling very underfed. I can’t live on milk alone anymore. I’m ready for some really red meat and wish there were a group of like-minded brethren who wanted the same. A stake ‘school of the prophets’ study group would be amazing!
This was time well spent!!!! Thank You BOTH!!! Please consider more episodes between the 2 of you - this topic is so central to our healing as a people, or at least in groups/wards etc where people are open to healthy change. So very grateful. This is one of my favorites you've ever done, Greg.
So true. Thanks for the discussion. I feel that Jesus is my hero; that kind of thinking would help. You are right on. A good strong man in the church and the family helps. What should the church and EQ and Young Men’s group be teaching; how should the church be dealing with this extremely relevant issue. Loved the whole discussion. I. Know we can do better.
Well, what did we think was going to happen when we canceled the Priesthood sessions at conference? I guess we don't want to offend anybody (a ridiculous and weak reason if true). I love going back and listening to old priesthood sessions where we were counseled to "Be men and strong leaders." It seems like the times have changed and that "masculinity" is slowly being pushed out of the Church. Not a good thing, like the saying goes, "Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, weak men create hard times." I'll leave it at that.
The organization of the Church is not addressing this. Don’t wait for it to address this issue. Assume or take your place as head of household. Gather in like minded or like hearted men in your family. At the very least teach you male children by example. Don’t ask your wife for permission to do this. Lead, just do it. They will follow.
I frequently witness the fire in men’s eyes when they do a sparring class and bond with there teammates, one of men’s primary duties is to protect, in order to do that they need training, I recommend martial arts for all men 🥊
Hello I’m a mom of 5 sons.. and very active in the Christian community Active LDS member too.. Other churches get men a ton better than we do!!! They have men’s groups! They talk about men’s needs and support each other as leaders in their homes openly supporting each other to be great husbands and fathers. I’ve spoken for 20 years in our LDS circles how we need this too We need Fathers and Sons groups! There’s a book called Raising a Modern Day Knight that speaks to this. Men are Wild at Heart and have large physical needs. Nerds and feminine men are praised in our LDS circles.. But there are many other types of personalities!
I agree that our sons need more connection with other boys and men. My son and daughters invite friends over to our house on a regular basis. They plan youth dances (swing dancing with uplifting music) every two months that attract 70+ youth. I've worked hard to connect my sons and daughters with great male and female role models. They are involved with a community choir, as well as an acting group. My children are thriving socially, solely because they make the effort to do so. We cannot possibly expect an organization to fill each of our social needs because each one of us is different with varying needs. We have to be responsible for our own lives. And this is coming from someone who use to isolate herself in her home, waiting for others to reach out, until God gave me a wake up call one day informing me that I would regret not making the effort to connect with those around me. Everyone is lonely. Everyone is waiting for someone to save them from their lonliness. Choosing to connect with others requires effort, but the results are so worth it! Truly, it is the only path to genuine connection. When we adopt greater responsibility, we find greater meaning.
Completely agree. There are 2 groups I know of MDK Knights and Squire program(Father/Son camp), that would be great for our men. But I think we have the resources to create something within our church, that has Christ as the foundation.
Hmmm it's interesting that many of the trad wife channels on YT talk about how church is the worst place to meet men. Beta leaning, effeminate, wispy voiced men. I see this as well in the LDS church. Hate to point out the obvious but it correlates with the movement to get women in leadership roles in the church. What women need most of all are masculine competent productive high value worthy priesthood holders.
