- Ancients in their language: this is a sword, and this is another kind of sword this is a foregin sword. - Weapon historians: This is a bastard swod, this is a longsword, this is a rapier, this a shamshir, this is a katana, this is dao. OH! And there is a typology of specific types logswords we created ...
Yeah and the sword he has isn’t really definitely Persian, yet he asserts it as such. The same sword could be referred to, as some people try to do, as a “سيف" (Saif, the Arabic word for sword) and it would still be the same problem. That type of sword, both the blade and handle, are so prolific in the MENA and even Europe that asserting Shamshir is the correct term is simply ignorant. This guy is goofy.
Funnily enough same in Thai "ดาบ" or daab. For westerners daab is used to refer to the thai sword but it's actually just the word for swords in general
Same with 刀 “katana” in Japan. Just means “sword”. The Japanese call their type of sword, in Japanese, 日本刀 (nihontou) “Japanese sword” to differentiate it from other types of swords made elsewhere. Starting to see a pattern here…
The persian shamshir had some different versions as it went on , the fully curved shamshir started to apear in safavid era , this looks like a less curved version to me 😀
I'd say that a scimitar isn't a one sword per say, but a family of swords Kind of like how you could call a Flamberge a two-handed longsword, you could also call a shamshir a scimitar
So Scimitar is a word from Europe that means any eastern curved blade, and the Shamshir is a curved blade from Persia, which is... To the east of Europe. So a Shamshir is a Scimitar, the way an Oakeshott Type 14, Type 15, and Type 18b are all longswords despite being as diverse in design as the blades encompassed by Scimitar.
They are also used in very similar ways, to do very similar things in combat. We need to realize that all of this classification is modern and didn’t matter to ancient people
And cavalry sword could refer to thousands of different designs, both curved and straight, double or single edged, long or very long, which is why it would be a poor descriptor, just like the word scimitar it is too broad of a term.
Scimitar is colloquially used as a general broad-purpose description for Arabian and oriental curved blades used for slashing. I was unsure of the authenticity of what you’re saying myself, so I did some independent research. Direct from the encyclopedia; A scimitar (/ˈsɪmɪtər/ or /ˈsɪmɪtɑːr/)[1] is a single-edged sword with a convex curved blade[2][3][4] associated with Middle Eastern, South Asian, or North African cultures. A European term, scimitar does not refer to one specific sword type, but an assortment of different Eastern curved swords inspired by types introduced to the Middle East by Central Asian ghilmans. These swords include the Persian shamshir (the origin of the word scimitar), the Arab saif, the Indian talwar, the North African nimcha, and the Turkish kilij.[4][5] All such swords are originally derived from earlier curved swords developed in Turkic Central Asia (Turkestan). The English term scimitar is attested from the mid-16th century and derives from either the Middle French cimeterre (15th century) or from the Italian scimitarra. The ultimate source of these terms is corruptions of the Persian shamshir.[7][8] Scimitar became used to describe all curved oriental blades, in contrast to the straight and double edged European swords of the time. Much like how a “longsword” or a “rapier” come in many designs and forms, they all have a central theme which they are classified around.
Yeah this guys points are all kinda stupid. Even when he says “it’s like calling this sword a katana” when in Japanese “katana” literally means and single edged sword.
@@rohanshirmard2485 Except in Japanese it’s literally a word. In Japanese what we call a katana is called uchigatana. “The specific term for katana in Japan is uchigatana (打刀) and the term katana (刀) often refers to single-edged swords from around the world.”
@@VinEllis iranians call every sword shamshir but they always mention the origin after that. Shamshir_Japanese or shamshir_samurai or Shamshir_roman But you must confess that is not accurate at all. These tool saved nations from occupation and disaster for centuries they earned and deserve the respect to call them by their correct name
Sword just means "sword" Shamshir just means "sword" Katana just means "sword" Dao just means "sword" Ironically scimitar is more descriptive word if we are being literal.
Amazing video! Well done. It gets even more complex as the "shamshir" you are holding isn't even a classical Iranian sword. Yours has a knobbed handle which is Turkish in origin. You have an Iranian blade on a Turkish hilt.
"Eastern curved blade" is also overly broad and doesn't differentiate between weapons of various countries. So, why is "scimitar" problematic but "eastern curved blade" is not?
I mean aside from calling it a pirate sword how else are you going to know what I'm talking about. And cutlasses are equally associated with pirates so Scimitar is probably best.
Oh, that's the thing: you can call it a falchion, because that's what it's closest to, but if you're going to assign a weapon to a Middle Eastern coded character, stop giving them falchions, and give them shamshirs instead
Nothing. That particular ubiquitous fantasy sword shape has no real life equivalent. It is closest in resemblance to a European Falchion. In Always sunny in Philadelphia they call it an "Alibaba sword" from the old movies, and thats as accurate a name as any.
I want to point out that the italian word scimitarra is the direct transcprition of the word shamshir, and they sound also very similar with the italian sci- in scimitarra that is pretty the same sound of the sh- in shamshir (in the way you pronounced it), a sound lost in the english pronunciation of the syllable sci- in scimitar. So ironically "scimitar" is actually the correct word for that sword. Otherwise it is like saying the names Pietro and Peter aren't the same name with the same meaning deriving form the latin Petrus also deriving from the greek Petros, only because they are a bit different and suffered a "localization". And it's the reason why you say See-zar (and we in italy call him Cesare) and not Kaesar, and Roma becomes Rome. It's the most common thing when different languages make contact: they mix, and english and italian have a lot of words coming from the east, for exemple the algorithm that has suggested me this video
This was very informative!... Is it safe to say that the term "Scimitar" is just like a general term, since it appears most *scimitars* have an actual name... I find it interesting because we should start identifying these names for swords because it plays into the evolution of the craftsmanship behind weapons and what style would actually be used in battle. We are doing a disjustice to all those who came before and perfected the blade, shape, length and weight and other properties for soldiers and such.
I usually just say "saber" which sure is also a catch-all term, but it paints a more accurate image in people's minds. A slim, curved blade held in one hand.
So another place that you see this confusion is in places like fantasy games and tabletop games. In these places you need to have a short hand for a large swath of items that might have individual meaning on a smaller level. In this case on one uses katana and scimitar as shorthand for a certain type of sore that's different from long sword or rapier, if we're using the d&d terminology here. Now there is going to be a large bit of inaccuracy as not all long swords are considered long swords not all short swords are considered short swords and they do have a large variety in between as you point out a machete and a falcon and a claymore are not going to be all the same thing but might be long together and how they function or what kind of damage. So maybe we do need to work on our classifications but we do need to maintain this shorthand to indicate a certain type of weapon that deals a certain type of damage so that we don't have 20 different sorts that do exactly the same thing so there's no point in having any of them. Other than flavor from the DM or some sort of backstory which you are video is very helpful in, it is not helpful in the game mechanics.
The reason for the falchion like sword shape in scimitar esque swords in fantasy is because of an old legend in islam about how Imam Ali split his sword against the helmet of the mightiest warrior in Mecca. Because of that, some people who lived within islamic places from that time tried to pay homage to that moment by having their sword "split" at the end like zulfiqar.
The swords that were listed that supposedly look like European falchions actually look much more like the Saracen scimitar to me than to any European falchion, except for the width, since the fantasy scimitar is a bit more chunky compared to the Saracen.
Scimitar is perfectly fine word as long as it's used correctly, as a general term of curved blades. General terms can actually pretty useful when you doesn't know exactly what type of it sword it is. Not everyone is an sword expert.
Well as he explains the word Scimitar is the English corruption of the word Shamshir, so, well, yes, but actually no. Shamshir just means sword, just like the vast majority of swords throughout history were simply called swords, so many of the different names we have today originally just meant sword (spatha, kilij, shamshir, tulwar, pulwar etc.) the practice of grouping different types of swords into categories and naming them is a modern one, for research purposes, and in this system the Persian word shamshir has become the name of the historically most prominent Persian sword, a style of curved sabre. So Scimitar was a mispronunciation of a foreign word that didn't describe any specific style of sword, but any sword, that then came to refer to any curved sword from "the East" and that's why the term is problematic today.
"you actually use the word 'x' because people from regions closer to your culture in the past used that word" phew, I thought it was implanted in my brain by the aliens. Thanks.
Love the video, no one is highlighting this big error in history, only few, and you are one of the few doing that, with actual facts and analyses, respect !!!!
Maybe it's like samurai who use katana as a name of they sword, or duelist, swashbuckler and musketeer they r using rapier or another fencing sword. Maybe scimitar is a person who use curve sword from middle east, which is a sword is shamseer, kilijr or talwar
So when calling those swords "scimitars" (defined as any curved sword from the Middle East or the Asian sub-continent) you are being absolutely correct that those are scimitars. Umm.... Thanks for clearing that up for us?
Good question, and the real life scenario is Arabs using these curved swords from the 16th century onwards. The would just call it "sword" in Arabic, but that's not sufficiently descriptive. It makes more sense to use the word from the culture of inspiration, rather than the culture of manufacture. So even if it's made in Egypt, I would call that sword a Shamshir
I feel like hes just disproving his own point. It is a class of sword that falls into a wide variety of swords. Look an f40 isnt a 355, but its still a ferarri. A 44 swamper is bigger than a 18 low profile tire, but its still a tire. He has no scimitar to show us, except what historians have all dubbed a scimitar lol…
This assumes that everyone is going to know the names of ALL the different types of scimitar, and be able to name them all, and know all the differences. As a writer, if I know it's a shamshir, I'll call it a shamshir. If it's a different design and I can't find out the name, or if it's a fantasy design, I'll call it a scimitar because either way they're both going to fall into that family. I have a design of them that looks more like a Chinese broadsword, but it's not a Chinese broadsword because China doesn't exist in the world I created. I can't call it an Eastern broadsword because eastern culture in that world isn't the same as Earth's eastern culture. And, if I call it a broadsword people are going to think of the straight, double-edged version. So, I call it an (insert name of civilisation) scimitar because it doesn't really have a direct/specific Earth equivalent. So, maybe give a bit of leeway as even the most meticulous of authors who research a lot - as I do - can't be perfect all the time.
The only people who actually care about these specifics are modern people. Most people back then just called swords swords. Walk into a shop with a wall of swords and you asked the guy to hand you the sword you're pointing to.
You make General assumptions about artists depicting curved swords. But not one of the pictures you showed as evidence were curved. So what are you basing your claim on?
Good video! Windlass calls that model the "Persian Shamshir" but it hardly looks Persian. Most antique ones do not have fullers like the Windlass. Also, the fittings on the Windlass looks a bit off especially with that fleur-de-lis on the hilt. I see it as an Indian copy of a French copy of a Mameluke saber!
If scimitar is a broad term for eastern curved swords i don't see an issue calling a talwar a scimitar. I just want people to stop using longsword to define a sword of standard length. Even "historians" are guilty of this on youtube
"Scimitar is a broad category meaning Eastern curved sword but I want you to call it specifically by name even if you're a writer or game designer who wouldn't know off hand rather than a Smith or a historian who would" dude
Man... if you are speaking in English, where the word "scimitar" means "one-handed, one-edged, curved sword of Eastern and/or African origin with greater curvature than a saber and a pointy (not blunt) end", then you are actually wrong in saying that a shamshir, a kilij, a tulwar, or a nimja, are not "scimitars". It's as hilarious as weeabos that strongly insist that a bokken (literally "wooden sword" is not to be refered to as "wooden sword". Before starting to correct people on the use of words in other languages, one should learn the meaning of the words in his own. _Meeeeeeeeeybe_ there *is* already a word in one's mother tongue for the foreign word that should be used instead. (Hilariously, usually that's the case with foreign languages and English loanwords. *Watching you make the same mistake on the other direction* was... amusing).
Well I went looking to see what was out there on the “scimitar” before I cover such topics. My friend you have gone to far in the other direction. What the Europeans refer to as a scimitar is a Dē dada, Sapa, or Tegha. The other swords a names you have just mean sword in their language, kiliç in reference to a pala, tulwar in reference to a sirohi, pulwar in reference to a golia etc.
Raiden the European version of Japanese God of Thunder Rajin doesn't look like him, and European version of Buddha is far different than Indian statue of Buddha.
That not meddle east mean Turkish did you think about Arabs that Islam when it's began read about kahled abn Alwalled to know who have used the scimitare in the wars. His first war was against the Romans in the Mutah War. He faced the Roman army numbering 3,000 against 200,000. He killed a person every 6 minutes. Nine swords were broken by his hand in this war. For your information, Islam spread by the power of God, and this great leader who never lost a war, nor was there a natural death in his bed. Finally, this sword is for knights. It can be hit like a hammer due to the density distribution in the metal, and also for individual confrontations before the start of war, as was very common in the past.
that is Indian Talwar , Indian Talwar, Turkish Kilij, Persian Shamshir is all Saber type sword. And who said that is Scimitar. Scimitar don't look like that this is Scimitar ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-a6KUm3a7Cys.html.
Firstly I wanted to look for a video with a battle on so-called "Scimitars" because I had my doubts about Red Rose's origin(Nero's blade from Devil May Cry including Dante from Devil may Cry series), but now i understood how terribly I'm wrong, I'm sorry
