The problem with the Melbourne Metro Tunnel 

No they did not renege straight away. Ballieu was prepared to build it. But the crazy right of the Liberal Party undermined him in forced him out and replaced him with dopey Denis Napthine. Who replaced the sound Melbourne Metro with the complete idiotic Melbourne Rail Link. An absolute farce.

the vic libs wanted funding for the metro tunnel but the fed libs refused and would only support the east west link. abbott poisoned victorian politics from canberra.

That is so true, the Metro tunnel should be up and running by now. The Liberal State Govt. when in power, tried to have route redrawn to benefit its developer mates and terminating it at Southern Cross. Which would have just moved the choke point to that station.

@arlton It was because of political infighting and the Liberal Party moving to the right. Ballieu was supportive of the Melbourne Metro but Kroger and his Christian right cronies undermined Ballieu and put Denis Napthine in.

@@mjcats2011 OK, but Guy tried to have it rerouted.

And a 1 billion dollar Dan Andrews estimate ends up being a 5 billion one.

@@emboe001 I get the Dan hating thing, but you must be aware that previous government had planned to extend the line to service a single precinct in Port Melbourne and nothing more and seeing no visible improvement to the network overall? Go for broke on anything else, but at least we have seen the train network improve for the first time since the loop was built.

I get that South Yarra would be costly and it ain't being done. Also I personally wondered with the topography (and proximity to the river) the line is going to be on quite a slope there inappropriate for a platform unless it could dive down significantly earlier than where the portal is placed. And that is where property acquisition might come in to it. These are only my musings. But, I think the desirability for a Sth Yarra station stems from the fact you are removing a significant line from what is currently a busy interchange. Maybe the passengers changing at Sth Yarra aren't particularly high numbers.

And if we had not built ego driven edifices at each of the existing stations then we could have built a perfect interchange. Still it’s Australia - where we never miss a trick to ruin any project by doing it on the cheap. There’s also good transport at State Library and we didn’t need a station there either

@@geotardFisherman’s Bend is actually going to end up as a massive residential area and has no transport - Domain and Flinders St has. What do you think would have made more sense. Building a link to somewhere with no transport or duplication of something existing?

Yes!

Yeah you want to talk about missed opportunities, the Regional Rail Link (and arguably Regional Fast Rail) projects missed a fair bit. Don't get me wrong RRL did A LOT, it overhauled 3 pretty run down stations (arguably enabling what they've done or planned to do since with at least 2 of them), built 2 new ones in growing suburbs and built a completely seperate fast corridor between Sunshine and Southern Cross. It also has been said by people in the know that it was in part the inspiration for decision makers to make the brash decisions they've been making these past few years (Melbourne Metro, Skyrail to name a few). But well first off, how the RRL had the Main Rd St Albans level crossing in it budget (it was eventually removed and funded by the LXRA but still), yet didn't remove the 3 in Deer Park that putting another train line on increased the time the gates were down (and the traffic in the area) I don't know. Also, I don't know how they didn't foresee what would come with Wyndham Vale & Tarneit when it's been well known for probably 15 years that it's a growth area (I myself live in Werribee). So you put a rail line with direct access to the CBD through there, of course they're going to use it Metro or not. But I do agree, the segregation at Sunshine is going to pose a problem because those two tracks only go to Southern Cross. Maybe they keep that for Ballarat and Bendigo services I don't know, but as for Melton and Wyndham Vale they have to cross onto the Sunbury line, and how do you do that without causing another big conflict (because there is of course already one there). And then do you run them all through the Metro tunnel, or keep that track through North Melbourne to Flinders Street for them, and possibly run them through the loop? It would be ideal to get HCMT's out to Wyndham Vale, to be honest. My point is, they really should have considered either electrification. Or at very least, a proper fast rail to Geelong. Wyndham Vale did need a line but, putting it with the Geelong line was a mistake in hindsight. Should have been it's own line and electrified from day one. And, it really should have connected with Werribee. As for Melton, yeah. Melton at very least needs electrifying, possibly even Bacchus Marsh with that new siding they've got out at Maddingley. Give Ballarat, Geelong and maybe even Bendigo a proper Regional Fast Rail service.

Got to build the eastern suburb airport rail first.

Problem is where do you put the trains when you get to Sunshine. There is no space. That's why the metro tunnel is being built first

No the most overlooked project is the Upfield line duplications

there would need to be a few new tunnel connections for through running to be symmetrical, i think 2 of the highest city commuter traffic lines should run looping, in opposite directions for easy circumferential travel.

What do you mean by "two pairs of *directional* track"? Did you mean "*bi*directional"?

@@fishofgold6553 no, as in a pair of tracks that are each unidirectional. Like normal train lines are, one track up, one track down. The city loop is currently configured as four independent bidirectional tracks, with trains running in both directions in all four tunnels (hypothetically, i think one or two tunnels are now unidirectional). I just sort of forgot the word “unidirectional”.

" Tidal flow " is a compromise which realises maximum efficiency from the available capacity , and is also used on the certain roads .

@@murraykitson1436 set aside the fact that tidal flow is really only effective for linear choke point routes with highly periodic traffic, not ring roads with roughly even traffic in both peaks. (City loop traffic direction is based on which line you’re arriving/leaving town on, not whether you are arriving or leaving.) The city loop is not using tidal flow! It never has! Tidal flow is based on the idea that you have more lanes in one direction than the other for each peak, but the city loop is four lanes that don’t interact _at all._ You’re not accomodating more traffic by having more lanes move in one direction, or allowing for breakdowns and overtaking, because trains can’t move between tunnels in normal operation. It’s like - imagine you have four one lane bridges, two in one direction, two in the other. They go to and from (nearly) the same place, but were built as four separate structures. Halfway through the day, all four bridges reverse direction. That’s what the city loop currently does. What I’m asking for is to reconfigure it into a standard four lane bridge. If a car breaks down in one lane, cars behind it can overtake it. Cars don’t have to know which exit they need to take at the other end before they get on the bridge and choose a lane accordingly. You don’t need bizarre traffic flow contraptions at either end to deal with cars that, for half the day, are on the wrong side of the road. Etc.

> The airport link is due to restart construction in the short term. It hasn’t been cancelled… It's been officially shelved. That means that there are no current plans to restart it.

Metro 2, I hope, will get the conversation about a line to Doncaster going again

I suspect the biggest problem with no connection at South Yarra is that once the Metro Tunnel opens, inbound Pakenham/Cranbourne trains will no longer stop there, and so Dandenong line passengers can no longer change for a Sandringham train. They'll have to change to a Frankston train (probably at Caulfield or Malvern) then change again at South Yarra.

all these projects presuppose that the State isn't broke, which it is. I mean, the MOST CRITICALLY NEEDED out of all these projects, the Airport Link, has been officially shelved. The SRL is a nice idea in theory but the fact that they've shelved the Airport Link in favour of a certain politician's poorly planned vanity project is 1. insane and 2. reeks of collusion/bribery. Also the fact that the SRL will not run as part of the broader network but instead as a self-contained system is a huge missed opportunity. The fact is that the SRL could've been built for much cheaper and way faster by just connecting up a few lines using the existing Outer Circle railway alignment (which still exists, and in one place 3 lines sit within 1.5km of each other. It's pretty clear that public transport planning has become a theatre for political stunts and short-sighted GADGETBAHN ideas, rather than for sensible, long-sighted and fiscally responsible plans.

@@zoomosis my theory is that they'll add a cranpak stop at hawksburn to allow a change for frankston trains running to Richmond. All of the MATH stations already have 4 platofrms so this one actually has a pretty simple fix and I don't think the lack of an interchange at South Yarra is as big of an issue as people claim.

Please list the lost opportunities.

@@cabbagepatch8947 More money on public transport.

@@cabbagepatch8947 The West Gate “Tunnel” is huge money guzzler which has a tonne of suspended road directing cars and trucks into places like the inner northern suburbs which have previously not been car-centric. It will also take huge trucks to the Port, which means they’re actively ripping up freight train lines to do that. Same with widening Wurundjeri Way, which is where there used to be train lines that they’re ripping out to widen the freeway. They’re talking about the need to increase the percentage of rail freight while actively ripping out rail lines! Southern Cross could have also used the space for an extra platform with two lines, like they did with platform 15/16. They’re spending billions on a project that will just encourage more cars on the roads, particularly in places where people currently majority use public transport. Instead that money could’ve been used to improve rail freight, and bring good public transport to the Western suburbs, and trams to the inner west and north

Can all agree that labor atleast did something for public transport as opposed to the liberals who just would of built more toll ways

@@boomsledge I am enjoying having a dedicated bike path for most of my commute to work and can thank Labor for that.

The word previous was unnecessary, the new NSW State government has those very same beliefs. They have made it abundantly clear that TOD is the way forward.

But we over spent on stupid ego driven station designs above ground - money that could have been spent on a South Yarra station. And of course if we discounted the usual Australian whining of ‘every excuse under the sun as to why we can’t build something’ meanwhile overseas it just gets done.

@@andyrob3259I have no idea where you got any of that from...

​@@andyrob32592 of the stations have nice aboveground development... The other three and just holes in the ground... I mean they're expensive holes but

@@andyrob3259 compared to the costs of excavation and tunnelling, station architecture is inexpensive. I totally agree that there should've been an interchange at South Yarra, but what you're saying is completely misguided

Only the Western Airport Metro, all other lines didn't have federal funding I believe.

Short-term governments shouldn’t be involved in long term decision making like this. Also politicians with interests in fossil fuel and carparking profits shouldn’t have any say on PT infrastructure. It kind of baffles me how governments can be so short sighted.

That requires planning and agreement with politicians. The Metro tunnel would have been up and running now, if the Liberal Govt. had not wasted four years in trying to have the tunnel moved to benefit its developer mates and benefactors. Victoria has removed over 100 level crossings and replaced many old stations mostly in the metro area, something Sydney did not have to find funds for because they removed theirs in the 1930s. This Vic Govt has had to overcome the best part of 100 years of government inaction and neglect of the railways.

Not to mention the Liberal Party under Jeff Kennet literally destroyed the then MET. This led to a neglected network and skills shortage in rail. Add in Metro Trains bullshit diversity quotas they have to meet and you have a perfect shit storm of morons in maintenance and incompetent idiots who work in projects.

@@blueycarlton Oh quit the mates game. So old. All sides of politics are bent.

@@tepidtuna7450 Four years wasted. Liberal inaction. Promises, but delivering nothing.

And if they extended it to the Uni and future Health precinct at Footscray park, well...

Well I hope that the Airport Service is not built. Feel free if you cannot be bothered to walk from T4 to carry on using Uber. Geez some walk further from their Car parks. Spending $13 Billion on a rail link to the Airport. N O T H A N K S !!!

I think it certainly was a missed opportunity sure, but agree with not building it as it was a billion dollars extra to build a station that was already well-served. They did add provision for it being built in the future though.

@@YukeWeiss Not adding Sth yarra was a planning blunder from the start!

The airport line was supposed to run via the Metro Tunnel, which it would have been able to do as it would have interchanged onto the Sunbury line at Albion. I do hope it still happens, as of all the projects an airport rail line was one of the most neccessary. As for the regional extensions, Melton & Wyndham Vale I can see happening as both of those lines are very busy. The thing that worries me though is Sunshine, the RRL has segregated those lines right into Southern Cross which makes me wonder how you get it onto the Metro Lines (which then creates another problem of that line becoming very busy with 4 lines theoretically being on it). And, does it then render RRL useless, which would be a shame.

HCMT compatibility is pennies compared to electrification and/or quadruplication costs.

Im NoT CaLLiNg iT AnZaC.

Wish we had included Upfield Lane and linked it to Rowvile or to Sandringham Lane, it would have helped with Reinstating the Clifton Hill- North Melbourne Stadion link and having Royal Park as an interchange Stadion, it would have helped a lot more.

​@@soulsphere9242the sandringham line, by all talk, will be through routed to Werribee, as the Frankston line will go back into the City loop.

The ONLY increase in capacity is in the Northern loop by removing Sunbury trains. No other lines will benefit. See my post for a detailed breakdown of what the new tunnel will achieve compared to what could have been achieved by adjusting the entrances to the existing city loop.

The line was never going to do that complex dance to have a station at South Yarra. Instead, the tunnel was starting much further down the line (that's why so much land was going to be bought from the Jam Factory) and the Dandenong platforms would be to the southwest of the existing station. Since that's so far away, the Sandringham platforms were to be moved south of Toorak Road. A billion dollars to end up with a spaghetti station that wouldn't even be used for interchange that much.

And also on the importance of preserving rail corridors, not abandoning them, such as by placing buildings on them or turning them into cycle/shared paths. Re-activating an abandoned rail corridor is a lot harder than re-activating a preserved one.

What? Apart from the airport one, the others have all been NSW Gov funded.

From 2025, services will cease to stop at Flinders Street, Southern Cross, Flagstaff, Melbourne Central, Parliament, Richmond, and South Yarra stations due to the opening of the Metro Tunnel.

@@The_Real_DreamM Using the new tunnel, they'll *essentially* continue stopping at Flinders Street and Melbourne Central though.

​​@@shootingskelly17exactly, the problem will be just if you're stopping at Flagstaff Southern cross or parliament, but I guess it should be a very easy change once in the city

Pakenham trains will stop at Anzac, the town hall (which is basically Flinders), state library (which is Melbourne Central), Parkville, then Arden, then Footscray etc.

@@KingAcid15 You'd change onto a Loop train at Caulfield, exactly as passengers from the Frankston line currently have to do.

Provisions were left for this to happen in the future. Doing it now had the risk of blowing out the project cost and time

@@mrillies Thus ending up with a second rate solution.

@@smedleyfarnsworth263 exactly. It's absurd!

Melton, Wyndhamvale, yes. Stony Point, why?

If they electrified the Stony Point line and increased the services to equal the Frankston to city line, it may attract even more passengers.

@@RGC198 Why? That population is miniscule compared to Melton, Wyndhamvale and Tarneit. Just a couple of passing loops will suffice for the Stony Point Line.

God Australians are backward. Totally and utter backward. No, building a station would NOT have been impossible. Or impractical. What you think we are the only city in the world that would have deep stations. Deep stations also means YOU DON’T NEED to buy the properties above. Oh and we’ve had lifts and escalators for quite a few decades. And no metro overs was a would have done such a dumb mistake of not building such an interchange. Maybe spending less on ego designed station complexes and that money could have actually been put towards building actual stations.

So instead we over spend on the other stations on ego driven station buildings? And don’t do something that wouldn’t have been missed overseas. I love the excuses ‘oh they can just get on somewhere else’. Geez no wonder we have sht rail in Australia. Cheap half a~~d planning.

@@andyrob3259 100%!

Sure "Anzac is connected by the 58 tram route" - I'm just going to sit wait for 20 min, then hop on the 58.. another 30 min doddle down to Anzac... It should all be about moving the greatest number of people from the most highly densely populated areas as fast as possible - only *that* will attract people onto public transport. cheers

So its alright to spend Billions on Airport and SRL, but not electrify Melton and Wyndhamvale. Of course it will improve the network. Far more trains can be run by quadding and electrifying. Yes the WRP was about providing extra tracks on that corridor and it should be done before any Train to the Airport.

No different than any new stations ffs. Overseas they build new stations adjacent to existing stations, they don’t rename them something totally different just to confuse the issue

@@xr6lad Well these sort of are new stations. The "connection" to Town Hall from FSS for example will be a tunnel from Campbell arcade. Apparently emergency services requested that the names be different. Some metros overseas follow this convention but I really dont mind either and doubt itll be an issue when the line opens.

Dont forget ordering trams with fixed bogies so that the arches crack when navigating curves... Sydney is able to focus on its fantastic metro lines because they already have their suburban train system in order with several cross-town connections and all day 15 min frequency.

Sth yarra connection to the Metro tunnel is not needed for that reason (access to Sth Yarra from far and beyond).. though sure.. that would be an added benefit. The main reason it is needed is to get people living in the densely populated Sth Yarra quickly into the city and beyond to the University. Cheers

So two trains instead of one. Bravo. Your not in planning are you?

Yep, ripping out trams while a terrible decision for Sydney, it has made their heavy rail system much better than Melbourne's.

Lol, it's very unlikely there will ever be a finished SRL, and certainly not by 2035. That's only 12 years away, Victoria is now heaving with generational debt and there's no way the next government doesn't just drop the project.

@@bobbuliniusbotulismus7129 Sorry my mistake. That is the finish time 2035 is stage 1 of 3 or 4 stages.

The eastern suburb airport line

i don't agree that these downsides are valid. it doesn't need to be bundled. it works just fine on its own. obviously, i am very in favour of all projects that might connect with it Airport Rail Melton and Wyndham Vale Electrification South Yarra Tunnel Station and the big one, the Suburban Rail loop, which would be the biggest relief of capacity for the whole network.

I can see sense in that. However, First of all though we would need to remove all V/Line services from the Broadmeadows corridor. Secondly the level crossings will need to be removed. Still have the Broadmeadows Corridor going to Craigieburn.

100% correct. Melbourne has the worst transport "planning" (or lack thereof) of any Australian capital city. The political culture in this state is beyond broken. Governments here seem to take pleasure in blowing up Melbourne's future if it means they can reward their mates and inflict humiliation on their political opponents.

Sth yarra was planned very early on so wouldn;t have cost much extra had they done it right from the start! What a total stuff up! So who is responsible for this monumental blunder? Yes it can be added but now at extra cost. It;s LIb party policy. Cheers

Could also extend 4km from Power St to Port Melbourne Beach. Benefits of starting from there would make it efficient for trucks to unload excavated land to reclaim land for the beach

Why give to us when we need $13 Billion to build a spur to the Airport? I wouldn't give it to us either. Planning for Public Transport in this state is absolutely dismal. In any case the Sydney Metro has been entirely funded by the State of NSW.

Not enough freight and Vline services to justify it - overkill - other spending priorities

The metro tunnel was originally meant to end at Caulfield with an interchange at Balaklava station on the Sandringham line and 4 station in total along st kilda road between Carlisle Street and Flinders Street.

It was a value for money equation. Provision was made for it to be added later if someone wants to do it. Hard to explain why South Yarra needed another $950m for metro tunnel platforms when outer metro citizens just have a shitty bus service. Priorities.

The former Princes Bridge Station , below Federation Square was really only an Annex to Flinders Street Station . I remember using this station to travel to Montmorency as a child .

Emergency services requested separate names so that its easier to identify different parts of the FSS station complex.

100% agree with you. Massive wasted opportunity

laughing out loud - no rail link to the airport! World class? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

@@JimmiAlli Miss the part where he said it's not perfect?

@@chrispekel5709 no but I was concentrating on the ‘world class’ part.

So you've never travelled anywhere overseas then ✈️🌍

​@@JimmiAlliso it needs a rail link to the airport for your once in 3 years you get a plane? Ok

I agree. I don't think there's enough stations along any of the new lines.

@@OldAussieAds one of the downsides of having a lot of stations on any given line is that ,by stopping at every station , the trip takes considerably longer . I recently caught a Blue Mountains express to Strathfield from Central , and was staggered by just how quick this trip was compared with the normal suburban trains . I cannot see how cannibalizing the Bankstown line for metro running will improve trip times due to the high number of stations . With conventional trains , express runs are possible , however it would appear to be "all stations " operation only ,due to the inflexible nature of the metro system . The funds for this conversion would be far better spent on the western Sydney Metro project !

12 and 13 will be left unused because Frankston Trains will use 6 and 7 and the cross city Sandy Werribee/Williamstown will use 8 and 9 as Cranbourne and Pakenham Trains will not longer call at Flinders Street.

Yeah they were forced to dig them with roadheaders. Original plan was to cut and cover all the way up Swanston Street but people were.... Not happy about that

@@guy8968 Who build cut and cover in a dense built up area these days?

@@mjcats2011 well exactly. did NOT go well in community consultation

each city loop tunnel is a single track railroad, and each tunnel access has rail switches between different main rail corridors, these are estimated to use a minute to switch and clear the signal while the city loop's fixed block signal can only do at most 2-3 minutes per service, and then the major junctions (richmond, flinders street, north melbourne and southern cross) are meant to be operating in low speed, and heck lot of rail switching process, platform re-allocations, just to provide sort of service variations(like a frankston service terminates at flinders street and change service to racecourse line, or sunbury service not getting through the loop and changed into frankston service) These always cause heavy traffics, delays, sudden cancel of service and operation complexity, and overall, less peak hour capacity and service reliability. The best example is the Northern group(Sunbury, Cragieburn, Upfield), they do suffer the worst signal capacity in the peak hour and could sometimes delayed/cancelled without notice, just because the junctions and the loop can't take too much trains thus bottle-necked he whole traffic the metro tunnel could nearly physically separate those junctions and switches entirely, and a moving block signalling under double track arrangement could keep the theoretical capacity way denser and faster than a single loop track with fixed block signalling under its better train distancing nature while track from south kensington to sunbury and south yarra to caufield do still shared with V/line occasionally after re-merging to the existing track, it could still freed up a lot of capacity, not only those merged lines, but other services as well, as there's less shared platform and less traffic in the junction in order to make other services be faster and much straightforward and more services if needed. also, the 10 minute off-peak is always feasible in general in tcurrent system, and it's more or less about the business case do worth operating it or not a train operation, track maintenance and train staff do have its running costs, if more passengers do commute off-peak frequently, and workers union won't make any objection for more operation workload, then PTV will more or less happy to make more frequent services even running only with shorter set of train.