The Problem With The Terminator Franchise 

Is Arnie the greatest action star of all time? Check out our other channel and vote! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-j5QE717HDQI.html

Terminator 1 and 2 are the only ones you need to see. They are nearly perfect.

I think my big issue with the franchise is it's overreliance on retconning itself. After T3 I was salty enough, Salvation kinda brought me back in, then Genisys really broke the camel's back and Dark Fate burried it

The Terminator Franchise is something I consider a good opportunity that comes along, but then gets mercilessly exploited 'till there's nothing left.

Salvation is underrated as a stand-alone post judgement day movie. It really isn’t that bad

The problem with subsequent Terminator movies is they don't understand what makes Terminators compelling. The T800 was scary because the audience has no idea how, or even if, it can be killed. The T1000 ups the stakes by being even more tough. All the sequels after that have introduced terminators that are more capable, maybe even more dangerous, but they never feel unstoppable like the first 2.

The sarah connor chronicles should've honestly been the end because that show was incredible and really did well with portraying how tense it would probably be to be hunted by a killer robot and being on the run

Terminator 1/2 had an internal myth: the machine wars, and John Connor's rise to heroism. Terminator 3 was too 'close' to that myth, T4 showed a lame rendition of that myth, T5 ignored the myth, and T6 killed the myth

It really sucks that this franchise fell apart. Especially since T2 is my favorite movie of all time

As far as the films go yes I agree for the most part The game Terminator resistance is doing a wonderful job at showing a glimpse into that future war that we never got to really truly experience outside of flashbacks and the beginning of that said war

I'm still angry The Sarah Connor Chronicles got cancelled. It was so good and didn't feel derivative of anything. It was different and actually additive. I love the hinted at three side war that was going on in the future. I do understand it was an expensive show and didn't deliver the ratings it needed to survive, but man I miss it

More powerful than a unstoppable metal skeleton is movie studios' desire for money.

Of all the sequels salvation was the most unique. The others just tried to make t2

Linda Hamilton was a strong female lead. Awesome that James Cameron would write her in that way, especially so long ago when male leads were far more predominant.

When Dark Fate released, I was like "...Terminator Salvation? hey, I owe you an apology."

1 was a great movie. 2 was not only an incredible action film anyway, but it brought the characters back and completely subverted the premise. But you can't really subvert a subversion. All subsequent films should have just been completely new characters set within that Universe somewhere.

The first two movies are masterpieces and more than enough for me to ignore the circus afterwards. I notice a similar pattern with genre switches in another franchise dear to me; Alien. The first movie was more of a thriller and the second more action oriented with a bigger budget, but they are both awesome in their own way.

What sucks about Terminator Salvation is that Christian Bale, as always, gave a great performance. I really liked his John Connor

The TV show was near perfection, I wished there was more attention being drawn to it since I know A LOT of Terminator fans had no idea how great plot in that show is.

Out of all the sequels after T2, I like Salvation best. It tried to show us how have the work done by going back to save Sarah and then John have actually changed the future. It had loads of potential but then by the time you reach the third act you know they missed their chance.

They cut out the original ending to T2 in favor of it being open-ended. Obviously, the original or "Alternate" ending wraps things up with a nice bow and does away with the possibility of sequels being made. It's not surprising that studio intervention put the kibosh to that because of their "my money" mentality. They'd rather milk an idea dry than let it die with dignity.

The Terminator and Terminator 2: Judgment Day are great movies! Two of my favorites!

It’s a straightforward story that really only had one place to go…. To the war. Instead they just kept recycling the same story. Salvation failed to focus on the war we know, that being John Connor leading the resistance…. Instead it was filled with characters we don’t know or care about, and John being a background character.

Now, one problem this franchise has had since T2 (and I love T2) the story doesn't lend itself to the scrutiny of being watched repeatedly. T3 is where it really starts to show. I think the movie works, if you just enjoy it for what it is, but the more you watch it, the more it starts to unravel.

Feels really weird to have this conversation and not make any mention of The Sarah Connor Chronicles. Especially as it feels like everything that disappointed fans in the movies was provided in the show. Deeper exploration of the characters and themes, great action set pieces, and a tendency to avoid easy answers in favor of giving the audience something to actually think about. The show had some filler episodes and could be navel-gazey at times, but it was overall an underrated gem of 2000s television. I'm guessing it's not on any current streaming services, and / or Nerdstalgic is too young to have watched it when it aired? TSCC wasn't a movie but Cameron was still involved with the show and it feels like it warrants a mention in any discussion of the sequels, prequels and reboots of the Terminator universe.

I remember liking Salvation because it gave a nice glimpse into the future, which is what I wanted growing up in the late 90s/early 00s. I'd have to rewatch it to see if I still felt that way, but when it came out I liked it enough

Salvation was a disappointment as it didn't reflect the amazing future war we'd seen in the flash forwards in T1 and T2 but it's still the only sequel past 2 that's worth watching. It at least does something different and goes where the franchise needs to if Hollywood insist on continuing it.

Nice insights! I particularly like where you stressed that they need to understand *why* a property works. I feel like that's an increasingly serious problem. Since Star Trek came back, it's been stabbing around aimlessly in the dark with no clue what it's supposed to be, Stargate is about to come back, and they've already announced they're changing one of the core concepts of the show, Babylon 5 is being rebooted and, well, I'm fearful. Dr. Who has become more and more of a muddle. I don't resent these properties coming back, I would always welcome more of a show I love, but I often feel like the people who end up in charge of these franchises honestly don't understand what made them work.

I liked T3 & Salvation. You just can’t compare them to 1 or 2 cuz those are classics.

Yeah I totally agree. I was obsessed with Terminator in the 80s. Then when T2 came out I went totally nuts over it. T3 was a MASSIVE let down (though, it’s actually better than some of the trash that followed it!) Salvation was interesting. I was really pumped for this movie. I was cautious because I’m not a fan of McG as a director. But the idea of seeing the future war was very exciting. The trailer for this movie was REALLY good (although after seeing the film, I realised the trailer totally gave away the Marcus Wright plot twist in the film!) I actually thought the first half of Salvation wasn’t bad. But then it just turned to shit after the “twist” (which we knew was coming anyway) For me, there’s only two Terminator movies.

As far as I'm concerned, the only worthy inclusions are; T1, T2 and Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles. There's nothing else.

Thank you, Nerdstalgic! Great holiday episodes and always appreciate your attention to detail!

The Terminator to me is the perfect and ultimate proof that a movie and it's one sequel does not equal a franchise and lots of things can be just two great movies. The issue with Terminator is that its not easily franchisable, especially since almost every film has to write a new timeline.

I've been thinking about this for a while and if I got to continue the franchise, I'd go into a lower budget, horror-oriented direction more akin to 2020s "The Invisible Man". What if the protagonist knew that a Terminator was after them but didn't know who it was out of their circle of friends? Something like that. The end could have some action, but keep it more contained, character-based and creepy body-horror-y.

I loved Arnold in Terminator Dark Fate as Carl the draperies specialist.

I’m a firm believer that terminator Sarah Connor Chronicles was truly the best terminator work since one and two. They kind of got it on all levels and hands-down has one of the best versions of John Connor portrayed in media that I’ve seen.

Am I the only one that likes the franchise as a whole? Granted I think the first two are classics but man did I really enjoy Dark Fate and was pumped as hell to see Linda and Arnold back at it again and man did it not disappoint. The climax of the film was some of the best stuff I've seen from this franchise but anyway.

It was never intended to be a franchise

2:44 The problem is that according to the first movie's logic, there are no circles to close. What we saw in that movie was a closed causality loop. Skynet, in a desperate last-ditch effort to rid itself of its enemy, inadvertently creates the conditions for both its own and John Connor's creation. There is no "original" timeline. The past can't be changed. Things are happening the way they have always had. T2, by getting rid of this concept and saying that the past can indeed be changed, therefore doesn't close any circles, but rather opens up the possibility for further sequels with more and more inane wibbly wobbly time shenanigans. This is absolutely not unintentional. Rather, Cameron's reasoning for making the change was that there was no franchise potential for a story with a closed causality loop as its focal point. I would therefore actually go as far as to argue that while T2 is undeniably a good movie, it is in fact a terrible sequel to The Terminator as it undermines its premise and lays the foundation that makes all the movies that follow it so braindead. The franchise therefore shouldn't have ended after T2, but rather already after the first movie. If a sequel absolutely needed had to be made at all, it should probably just have told us the story of the war John Connor fought in the future rather than being yet another time travel story.

what's despicable about franchises is that you can never get closure, you can never move on. I don't want to be stuck in a loop.

Man, I’m just glad I came across this channel. Great content!

The franchise should have followed the future storyline Salvation established. The last two movies share the same theme: John Connor no longer relevant as a protagonist (making him the villain or killing him at the beginning), people and fans want to see his character arc completed

Cameron punted Dark Fate really hard. With all the OGs back in town I thought they'd do a quality product.

The edit is so satisfying to look at. Titlecards blending into the movies production design.

It would have been interesting if they developed Skynet's side more. The whole reason why the movies happen is because Skynet was defeated by the humans and it's trying to prevent that from happening by sending Terminators into the past. Both humans and Skynet are trying to change date.

The story was resolved after Terminator 2. The only thing I think you could possibly do after Terminator 2 is a movie about the future war that ends with Kyle Reese going back in time, making the series a big loop. But every new Terminator movie is made hedging bets about more sequels. None of them seem to have a actual conclusion in mind, which makes them feel even more useless for undoing the ending of Terminator 2 and each other. The entire central conflict of the Terminator universe feels limp and pointless now

3 shoulda been something closer to salvation with the opening of genesys to cap off the series. watching Reese come up and get sent back in time woulda been cool

You hit the nail completely flush, on the head, nailed it all the way into the board. 100% agree.

Your "time is a flat circle" is basically just determinism with extra steps

What’s disappointing is that it has so much potential as a franchise despite the terrible sequels minus dark fate

While the first two are obvious cinematic masterpieces, I still enjoy T3 and Salvation. In T3 I liked the idea that John is kinda lost and without a purpose, the idea that Judgment day can't be prevented only delayed. I also like the ending. Salvation had some good bits, too, though it didn't have that classic future war vibe. I saw Genisys in theatre. Haven't watched it again. The only thing I remember were the remade scenes from T1. But after that I stopped caring. Never saw Dark Fate, though.

Your videos are so good. I just wish they were longer 🙃

1:05 yeah he also got that dream from an Harlan Ellison Novel called "Soldier".

I actually liked Terminator Salvation. I remember going and seeing it with my parents for my birthday then seeing it again with my best friend the next day. It wasn't the All Machine War Terminator movie I had hoped for since I first saw T2 at a friend's house when I was eight but I enjoyed it and thought continuing from it would have been a much better path for the franchise then either Gyensis or Dark Fate.

I had an idea about where the Terminator franchise could go. I thought what if Skynet didn't just go after the leader of the resistance but anyone who gave humanity a fighting edge. For example, an engineer who makes the weapons that gives humanity a chance or the software engineer who makes a devastating computer virus. And there would be this twist, well not so much twist, that the Terminator sent after these new characters come from different timelines. That with each interaction a Terminator has with the past the future slightly changes. But because Terminators are as subtle as a fourth of July fireworks display, stories of metal men permeate the cultural zeitgeist it sort of creates this most likely future of Terminators but one that is not certain. Which would explain why every Terminator post T2 has different abilities. I just think this could have the possibility of maintaining the theme of the cyclical nature of time while allowing some room for expansion.

thank you for your analysis! ☺️

I’ve learned to warm up and appreciate T3: Rise of the Machines more and more now after suffering through Salvation, Genysis and especially Dark Fate.

T3 was great. Really inventive. Loved the ending. The rest were garbage.

I strongly disagree that it overstayed its welcome. It just seems like these people have no clue what story elements and themes draw us into the series. A good follow up story code have been figured out from there .Real consideration for the style of the prior films. Real organic consequences of where t2 left off. Or tell a new story that feels like it comes from this world at LEAST. In my opinion ...beat for beat. .everything about it...Logan is the Perfect model for what a new terminator movie should be. Strip away the flash and get a focused, intimate road story going. Barely surviving. Not knowing how to escape this. ...no 3rd act cgi explosion. Just character and struggle. Honest to God I'd watch a drama about Sarah and John Connor rebuilding their life after t2 over some over the top Sci fi action sequel. Not that it's what I want...but THAT is a more natural story to tell in that world. Never should have killed John connor. Never should have done the trendy thing and replace him with a character to check off boxes for inclusion. The series already had a Perfect and believable badass in Sarah Connor. If I wrote that movie I'd have aimed for a road movie about Sarah and John taking out the last few remaining Arnold lookalike robots that came back in time. Just erasing what was left of sky net

A endless stream of comebacks to the first movie

This was a great video. "I'll be back" to watch another great video.

The 3rd terminator was pretty good and had subverted expectations “the future /past can not be unwritten”. The whole time the audience is expecting to win and stop judgment day. The machines tried to kill John and John tires to stop the rise of machines. You can delay the end but ultimately the end is inevitable. Much like the popularity of the series. After 3 it looks like they tried to evolve by showing more of the actual war. All except dark fate which is just a re-skin reboot of the characters, i thought they told the whole story from John connors origins until his demise “becoming the terminator / leader /protector of Skynet”

As long as a series makes money it won't die anytime soon

This video really reframed the Terminator series for me. Well done!!!

Two that was all that was needed TWO FILMS! No sequels, reboots, tv shows, just two films!

I think the tv show did what the sequels never could.

Honestly T3 is the only one after T2 that is the closest to a good movie I think, the rest can be forgotten about

@Nerdstalgic: While I’m guessing it was omitted due to being a TV Show rather than part of the movie franchise (though Planet of the Apes spin-offs were mentioned), I would love to hear thoughts on how The Sarah Connor Chronicles fits into this narrative.

Hey, Stalgic. Would love if you’d cover some holiday content like Elf or A Christmas Story. Just a thought! I love your content!

Terminator franchise: so the story is done it’s time for me to rest Hollywood: good joke I will not let you go until I can take everything single coin I can get from you

The first two, classics, with the sequel being the single best argument for the concept of "sometimes, rarely, a sequel can be better than the original" and while yes, it leans far more into action, is still horror. Less "unstoppable, literal killing machine out to get you and all you can do is run" (though that' definitely still there) it sheds light on the macro scale of the existential horror of humanity's doomed fate if they don't try to change it, the nuclear blast scene, while not exactly realistic, is visceral and horrifying. T2: Judgement Day is like the RE4 of the Terminator franchise; excellent action, still maintains horror vibes while escalating the threat to focus on not just John or Sarah's lives/wellbeing, but also bringing the WHY their lives are so important with all that's truly at stake. The rest range from "not that great - to pretty terrible" but are all, I would argue, fun. Then the latest film happened, and I personally add it to the first two as a must watch, because I found it to be pretty fucking great, and if you pretend the others after T2 never happened, fits much more nicely into the series.

There's not many movies where the director of the original movie becomes the producer of the sequel and the sequel being good occurs

I had thought they weren’t able to self terminate , but the T800 proved me wrong at least four times

I don't care what people say, T3 wasn't bad. Not as good as 1&2, but not terrible.

Terminator is like Home Alone: only the first two movies matter.

I honestly really liked Salvation because of the visual style and the attempt at world building. Unfortunately a lot of the script falls flat, but aside from that the visuals and cinematography are great, most of the robots look interesting and unique, and getting more than a keyhole look into the future only really spoken about in the rest of the movies was incredibly fertile ground for expanding the cannon without harming the rest of the franchise.

Dark Horse published a comic book miniseries called Terminator: Sector War, which was set at the same time as the first movie within the contemporary present day, but in another city and following another target for temporal termination. The Terminator franchise tried to center itself around the lives of Sarah and John Conner, how they were intrinsic to the dark fate of the future war, when there were other stories about other people waiting to be told. Dark Fate even straight up killed John in the prologue with little fanfare. The increasing use of time travel also served to undermine that in the original, it was a last ditch attempt by SkyNet to turn events in favour of the machines. By Genesys, it’s gotten to the point any John, Kyle or Sarah can stash a time machine for emergency use and jump ahead a few decades. It’s the set up for Sarah Connor Chronicles and Genesys.

T3 was okay and had a good ending with all the bombs going off. Salvation was pretty dreadful. Genisys I enjoyed immensely because it was quite funny (rare for a Hollywood film) and the effects were way above anything from the series so far. But I agree it was also poorly conceived as an idea in the first place. I have to say that I LOVED dark fate and thought the film to be a crazy, weird, funny and quite touching finale to the series. Until T7 of course...

Great vid :)

All you need is T1 and T2 glad I am a literal Terminator and grew up off these first 2 classics lol

0:58 "..he dreamed of an unstoppable metal skeleton tracking him down attempting to kill him after developing this idea further.." That's a nice story except... "So, Ellison and his attorneys then contacted Hemdale (the financiers of The Terminator) and Orion (the movie's distributor) to discuss a payment or settlement, with the obvious threat of a lawsuit in case none was offered. And soon after this initial contact, Ellison's complaint received even more support. A Houston criminal defense attorney might have agreed that Ellison seemed to have some grounds for a lawsuit “About a week after my attorney contacted Hemdale, I got a call from the editor of Starlog magazine. ....It turned out Cameron had given an interview to Starlog and, after I began inquiring at Hemdale, [The Terminator producer Gale Anne] Hurd sent Starlog a legal demand to see the interview.” According to Ellison, Gale Anne Hurd then modified Starlog's article on The Terminator. She omitted a quote from Cameron in the article that read, “'Oh, I took a couple of Outer Limits segments.'” The reason that the Starlog editor had contacted Ellison was to provide him with the original version of the article, the one without Gale Anne Hurd's editing. Said Ellison, “At this point we went to Hemdale and to Orion and we said, 'I'm afraid we got him with the smoking gun. Now do you want to do something about this or do you want us to whip your ass in open court? We'd be perfectly happy to do it either way.'” Between the account of Tracy Torme and the Starlog interview, the attorneys for Hemdale and Orion quickly realized that they wanted no part of a lawsuit, by Ellison's accounts. “They took one look at this shit and their attorneys said, 'Settle.'”

I was at least entertained by 3 and 4. 2 is great 1 is a bit overrated. I hate the rest

0:21 yeah that pretty much summarizes it. Outside of Salvation, the ready just regurgitate the same plot of the first 2 with only tiny tweaks around the edge.

5:30 7 years later, I finally hear somebody say it. Dat sweet validation.

Say what you will about the franchise, but I think we can all agree that Terminator: Genisys is the worst one

I really love this channel!!

Ummm... Terminator 2 also had a marketing campaign that revealed the big twist of the "anrnie-nator" being a protector and not a killer. If you watch the movie a little closely you can see that this was meant to be a twist revealed during the first confrontation between the two terminators. Before which the liquid metal one wasn't even revealed to have been one, but played off as a Kyle Reese style soldier from the future.

Man it was so good to see a glimpse of ROBOCOP in there 🥺

Any thoughts on the TV series, The Sarah Connor Chronicles? While it reopened a lot of the closed plot points from T2, it did go in a creative new direction, or at least I thought so. The idea of time itself being like a chessboard, and the characters being the pieces in a game between Future John Connor and Skynet... I thought it had a lot of potential if it hadn't been cancelled. Anyone else have any thoughts? Any reason why this wasn't in your video, @Nerdstalgic ?

I think the squeals suck cause they rely to much on Arnold’s acting abilities. The first one made sense cause he was a machine wearing a skin suit. So he didn’t talk much and lost the skin in the end reminding everyone he was a machine. After that the challenge was to keep as much skin on him as possible to keep Arnold talking.

There's some beautiful cinematography in that final fight scene in the last episode of the first season of The Sarah Connor Chronicles. The underwater shot was a great way to show scale on a budget. They were doing some really interesting stuff on that show, even if they didn't have a huge special effects budget. That show had heart & was cancelled too early. Still the most interesting thing they've done with the franchise, besides the first two.

I am unaware of any Terminator movies after T2

Not even time travel can disprove that fate is real, unfortunately. Even if we go back and change the future, it's still possible that we were always destined to do that.

I've always wondered if a reboot to the franchise could work. Not a soft reboot like Genisys, but a full reboot with an all-new story focused on a similar idea. Maybe even returning to the horror themes the franchise started with. But we'll probably never get another good one so who cares.

The TV show was actually really good. I think there was a lot more thought and care put into it than the post T2 movies. Though it was cancelled too soon, I suspect that it was going to jump the shark had it survived into a third season.

"Terminator Dark Fate" was supposed to be a recipe for success , you've got James Cameron back (check) , Director Tim Miller of the first deadpool (check). It was the tipping point in the franchise , but NOPE! , straight away in the opening scene they shot and killed John Connor , which HURTS MORE than the other preceeding movies did💔 its like a piece of your soul was just ripped out of you as a terminator fan.

I feel so sorry for the teens of both now and in the future who, instead of getting lots of great new films (there are a few like Avatar) most of what they’ll remember their youth as contains (when they get much older) in terms of cinematic memories will be remakes and sequels and prequels. I was a child of the 80s and teen in the 90s and I thank god for that because I saw original, brand new stuff like Jurassic Park, The Abyss, Hellraiser and so forth - films I saw and had NO idea what to expect beyond the tv trailer - original content with a plot that could go anywhere. Also things like RU-vid ruin anything new these days (eg John Wick, Hunger Games etc) because you can see most of the film from reviews and scenes you hear about. I feel so sorry for young viewers and movie makers today because it’s impossible to really have the great sense of not knowing what to expect from a film anymore. I remember when Blair Witch Project came out in the mid 90s and there was a time when everyone thought it was a documentary snuff film. Today? No way that works. The internet has removed any sense of mystery and created a perpetually cynical fan base especially in the young adult demographic; not their fault, they’re just exposed to too much reality now that all the fun and mystery I was blessed with is gone.

Is it bad that I know films so well I can spot the remastering affects in that opening clip?

If they make another Terminator, they need to go real high concept. I see each movie (and the TV series) as branches of a timeline. My new Terminator would reveal Skynet inadvertently created John Connor. In the original timeline, there is no John Connor to lead humanity against the machines. He is a myth, a trap set by the resistance to give Skynet someone to obsess over. Skynet-"Who sent you? Where do I find him?" Soldier-"His name is John Connor, and you'll never find him!"

Whats the name of the song that starts at 7:02