It's hard to disagree with the points brought up in this video. It'd be sooo much better for the community if we just implemented 1.0 cardinals into UCF rather than forcing players to spend hundreds on a goomwave. Dash out of crouch has always been an issue for me as well, I hope this video gets pushed and people recognize how essential these fixes would be.
dash out of crouch is hard. if you cant do it, its almost certainly because you havent practiced enough rather than your controller, unless your controller has a lot of PODE
@@mlalbaitero definitely jacked up prices, I'm taking digital electronics right now my senior year and I've been modifying a game cube controller as my project. Definitely should not cost $300-400 from the circuitry side. I could definitely understand the programing aspect of it being difficult, but nothing too hard or worth that much money.
Hax is right when he says UCF fails to give shield drops to all controllers. My JP white couldn’t shield drop on the left side, even with UCF on. I ended up having to notch it myself.
Holy shit. Coming from someone who plays ultimate competitively but only watches melee casually and has only a vague understanding of UCF you did an amazing job and presenting this information incredibly clearly. I don't think the quality of this video essay can be praised enough
he really needed to learn the game at a deep level in order to choose the coordinates on the B0XX that allow all the characters to do their techniques. the B0XX is brilliantly designed
i've been playing melee for about two years, a year offline with bots and some similarly noobish friends - and then a year with slippi where most of my growth as a player has occured. it's been my first smash game, as well as the first fighting game that i've ever felt like investing time in. most tech i can live with, but shield drops have always escaped me and because i can't use them (or use them effectively) it really damages my playstyle with platforms and is currently the reason why i haven't played in a few months. i'd love to see something like this implemented, such a small change could really open up the game for me and surely many others
covid induced, melee break the egg warriors with bad stick boxes club. Out here like wait there are better stick boxes oh jk I don’t have $300 guess I’ll learn with this snap back jank I got. Yo I feel this so hard dude, so many minor controller niche shit has kept back so much of my learning and tech training but tbh it’s also really forced me to deep dive controllers and repairing and notching my own so in a way I’m grateful. I may only have one fully functioning excellent controller after like 30 purchases this year alone but goddamn can I make some clean notches and my friends that come to play have a plethora of SnapBack loving shitty controllers to play with! The future and these vids give me hope some newer titles like nickelodeon , start to encourage third party or first to get these simple design flaws and dated controller issues handled.
Honestly, shield drops aren't really hard with UCF, assmuing your controller gets covered. I'd imagine you're doing much harder tech than that, so maybe it's more about getting your head around the action. Dash-> hold shield->roll down to the 45 notch. Take it slow, get that down first, then add, for example aerial-> hold right/left->shield->roll down. It's honestly one of the most rewarding techs to learn, it massively improves your movement, and it'd be a shame for you to give up over it. I assure you, if you sat down for an hour for 3 days, you'd be shield dropping like well oiled machine in no time
All the smash RU-vidrs need to make the decision now of either playing Nickelodeon All-star Brawl, reacting to the new smash character or reacting to the new hax video
@@t00nbink I played throgh smash brawl again around a week ago and found out about that spongebob brawl game because google kept redirecting me to that game instead of smash for like every query...
Amazing review as always; I really hope we can come around to tighten these parameters and enable more and more people to enjoy the full competitive extentent this game has to offer!
We can dream, I also consider notches an inconsistent unfair advantage which requires people to either consistently renotch their controller or have a goomwave in order to achieve max length wavedash. My suggested solution would be an option to add wavedash angle banding to group the first 3 degrees and have them sit at either the second or lowest value of the 3 then the next 3 below that goes to the highest then either 2 or 3 sets of two degrees goes for the higher value. Since between east and south east is 45' the first two bands adds up to 6' and three bands of two after that would add up to 12' which is just slightly more than a quarter of that space having minor improvements to bring some balance while still offering a moderate amount of angle control. Would definitely need a lot of testing and fine tuning but I think anyone with decent wavedashes on vanilla hardware would have consistently better wavedashes but probably not quite as good as a notched player would. Would also help notches as you could make them so they have more space to be worn in before needing to be redone or replaced.
sorry to bring this up again Aziz because you just want to move past it but that you can still keep producing videos that have so much good argumentation in them just proofs to me that the stuff you said these last months were to a large part true (not the whole conspiracy stuff like the red pants and all that y know). I'm really proud of you for going back to your great thoughtful content and for giving up a unbeatable battle even though you mostly were right about everything. Let's all hope you get unbanned quickly because now you are not a "thread" in any way anymore i mean Leffen didn't even get banned for trying to cancel hbox and you apologized and showed that you learned from your mistakes. Wish you the best of luck Aziz.
The biggest problem I've always had with UCF is it's inconsistency in recognizing the polling dilemma of getting lightshield when passing through the analog values of a trigger, when you want the digital hardpress. Combined with the presence of ADT, shielding has too many issues in my mind. I though the former would have been mentioned at 3:45, but I do hope either or both get mentioned in future videos
i'd love to see this changes to ucf introduced; i've been trying to learn to techchase with sheik, and i had assumed that not being able to dash out of crouch consistently was just because i wasn't rolling the stick fast enough or something.
how about standardizing "ledge dash controllers", "pivot controllers" and snap back fix into UCF as well? I was surprized none of these issues were brought up in this video
Imo, having tech skill as a risk factor is a good thing. The more time in, the more varied your options become. While I disagree with the amount you want to increase the shield drop range, I agree with pretty much everything else. Fuck the lottery, standardize the controllers.
But then you'll always get the next guy that gets his controller notched for the unfair advantage of 100% consistency. Unless there's a ruleset change to ban notches outright in order to support that ideal of keeping sheilddrops/risky, the shielddrop execution buff ought to go through. Equalizing the playing field for everyone would be really good for melee imo.
You know what I think? I think we need to stop thinking so much about how this is unfair ir that is unfair. If we look at the smallest of problems then we would only have complaints and never play the game. Of maybe the crt I was playing on was worse than the one you're playing on.
Because it's easier for a community to hide the skeletons in its closets & if anybody decides to point it out, they're deemed "insane" or simply "starting drama". What probably initially _DID_ start out simply as beef between Leffen & Hax, quickly showed that there's so much backroom politics within this community, & since Leffen can't take criticism (but he's most certainly willing to dish it out), he likely leveraged his connections and/or influence in the community over Hax. Toxicity within the community runs rampant & Leffen sits on top of it. Everyone is too afraid to stand up to him.
Shouldnt the range for crouch dashback increase more than you proposed since many controllers physical barriers arent aligned with the actual perimeter of the unit circle?
@@MW_FSmash I'm aware, but I'd be surprised if padding it with a few extra y coordinates would affect other inputs (not a melee expert though, so I suppose I could be wrong)
My Man!!! I would propose for the 1.0 cardinal fix to be a bit more aggressive, not just clamping overshoots, but also bumping up the previous X value to 1.0.
wait so UCF doesn't let you shield drop in the middle like in vanilla? holy shit I've been hitting the vanilla shield drop range straight down (the red horizontal line) and being extremely frustrated when it never worked properly but did in vanilla melee I feel dumb
please sir there is something called a shydash, its not an easy tech but i get 1.0 using shy dashes and dont get them doing normal dashes so maybe its a problem with peoples technique when dding because of this i believe the lower value should be standardized, i didnt practice this for 4 years just to have it phased out by an update. That is the exact reason i play melee and not another game that gets updates... seriously please reconsider.
the only thing i dislike about this video is that it overemphasizes how much of a difference 1.0 cardinals make. while they do make a differences, and they should be standardized, the size of that difference is extremely small: iirc, many characters running across fd with and without 1.0 have less than a frame of difference.
In a game like melee, change like these might force players to change the way they play the game, or break some random mechanic/interaction. Any existing or potential compromise, no matter how small, should be tested and discussed.
Nah. The first frame of movement just remains in the deadzone (which is the middle square of those stick diagrams) and isn't read at all until the frame you're in the dash zone.
Effectively yes. Pode can make it so your controller might not poll the initial movement from neutral or skip polling the stick as it drifts across the middle non-smash turn zone. Your controller reads the stick being neutral one frame and in the smash turn zone the next, even if several frames have passed where the controller wasn't polled.
this completely overlooks the implications of having all players suddenly accessing 1.0 cardinal after decades of not properly having it aren't there reasons why boxx and others nerfed the L/R 1.0 cardinal? although im not sure if it's still like that, since ppl clearly are using 1.0 cardinal on keyboard for slippi melee at least
Not really sure how he's supposed to be more credible. At some point you either trust the results or reproduce and prove them wrong. If you're not willing to do the latter, you should prolly just not say anything lmao.
Are you sure you’re attempting to shield drop properly? Both my controllers are default from when the game cube originally came out and I can shield drop with them. That being said ucf has to be on in order for me shield drop easily otherwise it’s pretty hard. In unranked and uncle punch I can do it very fast but once I boot up 20xx (ucf isn’t in 20xx) it becomes very hard.
There should be a blockchain (or maybe even centralized forum; I'm not a blockchain zealot) for decisions like this to be decided by the community. That said, I love the idea.
@@Bones0 Yeah I wasn't thinking really about enforcement, just about consensus. Like, we could have come to an agreement about banning wobbling faster if we'd had some large scale forum for voting. (You could even do some sort of smart voting based on slippi hidden hidden rank and hours played.) That being said, I'm not really disappointed with how decisions are made now, I just think it could be cool.
@@jackeown There was no agreement or consensus about wobbling though, that's my point. One big tournament decided to legalize it (Evo), and then some tournaments changed. SWT banned it, then some changed back, but anyone can host a tournament that goes against what you perceive to be the consensus.
@@Bones0 I think you're missing my point. I understand that there will never be 100% agreement or probably even >70% agreement on any particular issue. Nonetheless, I still think it would be useful to have an "official majority melee community opinion" on issues. Anyone who wants can make their own tourny with whatever rules they want, but they will know whether or not they are disagreeing with the majority opinion of the melee community. As it stands now, people only know whether they disagree with their local scene, and tournament organizers.
@@jackeown Okay, yeah. I guess they would be nice to have if it's purely for knowing what people think in reality. I guess I just worry something like that would lead to TOs going along with stupid changes just because 90% of people who don't know what they're talking about give an uninformed opinion.
3:14 - "Another reason I believe this change is fine is the fact that the B0XX has become commonplace. [...] It's only fair to unite GameCube controllers with the B0XX [...]" 7:35 - "It's also only fair that the GameCube controller is given these ranges when you consider the fact that the B0XX will always succeed these techniques. Uniting the GameCube controller with the B0XX should be a priority now that Melee is being played in the modern era." I understand your point about UCF not being ideal, but so is the GameCube controller for Melee in general. To me, it sounds like you want to establish the B0XX as the new standard controller, as if it was the new norm. As if it was the main source of controllers that everyone must rely on, and that the GameCube controller has to catch up to it. I think it's not the GameCube controller that has to adapt to the B0XX, but the B0XX that must replicate what the GameCube controller does as close as possible to the original device. This is why I believe there should always be analog inputs, especially for actions based on movement thanks to the main joystick. Besides, the B0XX is able to read inputs from a Wii Nunchuk, as we can see on your site : b0xx.com/pages/the-future-of-melee So there's no reason to change the way the GameCube controller works in my opinion.
Yeah but his whole argument is that if the box has these options then the gamecube controller should aswell? I don't see how making gamecube controllers better would incentivize people to move to the box.
Yeah. I see what you mean. Hax is not wrong when he describes the flaws of the GameCube controller and how UCF tries to fix them. But it's the way he refers to the B0XX as a base resource to take example from that disturbs me a little bit. It's not necessarily about incentivizing people to move on to the B0XX, but more about how he affirms how much his controller is important and how anchored in Melee it is nowadays. I feel like he might be afraid to see his B0XX being left over because of what happened recently between him and Leffen. I hope I explained correctly.
@@smallsizeemerald395 Yeah I can see how this can maybe been seen as a means to solidify his controller and move it away from being controversial and give less legitimacy to people who want it banned. But honestly, the fixes he proposed are in my opinion good for everyone.
"Universal Controller Fix" has failed to do it's job until the advantages of a custom controller are limited to aesthetics. Melee will be pay to win until UCF includes every one of these fixes.
@@yScribblezHD Hax (and anyone who wants to take this game seriously) already plays on a controller that bypasses many of the issues of a vanilla controller. Why do you think Mang0, IBDW, Wizzrobe, Zain, etc are spending thousands of dollars a year on Gamecube controllers? It's because UCF has failed to live up to its namesake. I understand that my tone can be perceived as disrespectful towards Dan Salvato and the others who helped bring UCF about, but that isn't my intent. I am simply addressing the fact that the "pay-wall" that is purchasing a controller that actually performs the way you need it to only dissuades more people from playing Melee. We need more people to play our game so that more top players can make a career out of it. These issues Hax has brought up are not new. Yet, the greater Melee community remains unfazed by the fact that, despite us running a mod called "Universal Controller Fix", we will have to shell out 400$ for a controller that helps us bypass these issues.
the 1.0 vs 0.9875 argument is pretty poor. it's arbitrary which one you standardise to. I would probably lean towards 0.9875 since that's how "actual" melee behaves typically. standardising 1.0 suddenly introduces dash speeds and DI that we don't actually experience in 99.9% of cases. The goal is standardisation, not some notion of "buffing" as you argue. I would suggest standardising such that the meta is maintained with vanilla as much as possible should be the aim.
It's not arbitrary, he gave the reason: buffing it to be more consistent falls in line with the rest of the changes. The standardized method of changes is increasing consistency, that's a buff.
@@Sasoripwns I am arguing that this notion of buffing is arbitrary and beside the point. Repeating the thing I am suggesting is misguided in not convincing.
So glad we are getting back to normal videos. Look I know you want to move past it. But I do hope when Leffen screws up and shows that he really is a bad guy that you jump on it.
Let someone else proof the hypocrisy in this community Hax screwed up a lot in his videos because he was very much doing them with more hate than thought. Technicals is right now the best candidate even though a lot of people hate him in the community you can never really deny that he was right. Let's just hope that Hax gets unbanned first that's the most important thing rn.
