The Real Reason Why Technology Is Degrading In 40k 

The reality of a chaos daemon literally jump-scaring inventors is also a good reason to do some pretty slow research

Tech Adept: what if we try refilling the ink cartridges rather than forging new ones? Tech Priest: ... *Charges Plasma Pistol*

This is one of the reasons why 40k is so cool. A society so ancient and with such continuity, that nearly all technology ( scientific and social) has been discovered, tried, failed, forgotten and rediscovered countless times. Now the imperium more or less successfully trundles along atop the ruins.

Had to wind back at 28:50 to make sure Arch was still talking about the Imperium and didn't say 'GW is in essence experiencing a competency crisis.' 'Collapse of the ability to maintain complex systems despite historical success due to rising indolence and incompetence', indeed. I'm surprised he restrained himself!

The lower levels of the tech-hierarchy are indeed those that invent the most in 40k, the modifications done to the engine of a souped-up chimaera might send a proper tech priest into a feedback loop of apoplectic rage, but they WORK...

An extraordinary sedentary system, where the majority of people in positions of power will be at least marginally incompetent at their Job. Arch you have just described the British government, 'Perfectly'.

Mind you that there is also the Problem that the Magos's (political) position is dependent not just on his competence, but also - and more importantly - his knowledge. There is a rational reason for any given Magos that knows something the other Magi don't know to keep his knowledge to himself, which accelerates the decline/loss of knowledge, as ambitious Magi might get rid of their bosses without learning everything he had to teach.

It also kinda helps like in BattleTech, the inhabitants didn't keep nuking themselves into the Stone Age

Y'know that kind of explains why the mechanics became so modification heavy, if your piece of tech is a holy relic and you can't put shock absorbers in the jackhammer then just put the shock absorbers in your arms instead

I bathed the Holy SSD's in sacred Holy Water.

4:42 Galileo was imprisoned, not for heliocentrism, which he had the support of several cardinals, but because, his patron, the Pope, suggested Galileo write a book about a theoretical debate comparing Geo- and helio-centrism. Galileo proceeded to make the advocate for geocentrism a caricature of the Pope and an idiot. He was sentenced to house arrest, where he continued to teach and eventually died of alcoholism and gout.

The really screwed up thing about the situation with the imperium of man's tech in Warhammer 40k is how when you really think about it, how actually plausible it is especially when you compare it to similar situations in settings like Battletech where there are tech worshipping cultists but technological advancement does occur slowly but surely even while regression does in other areas. There's legitimately xenos species that use the warp in their technology in W40k. There's legitimately demons being bound to machines xenos tech that is dangerous for humans simply to be near and more. Even technology based off of actual normal established physics based principles like a very good chunk of Jokaero, Eldar and Tau technology is often straight up impossible to interface with existing technology for the simple reason that the beings that built it never thought of or intended it to be interfaced with existing human technology. Add in that there is no centralized schooling system in the setting, and even the various sub sects of the adeptus mechanicus disagree with each other on how technology is to be used, how or to whjat extent new ideas are tech heresy ect. It's nothing short of miraculous that the imperium of man can maintain a mostly standardized, common and relatively reliable technological base.There's plenty of other similar factions in various settings that can't. Comstar in Battletech for example broke into two warring factions in a dispute about how much effort they should put into restoring previous levels of technology. Most of the inner sphere paid the price.

Someone brought this up in a Lutien video that he did on a he Mechanicus. The field of engineering is basically about repeating the same process shown to them by the senior engineer, which is mostly maintenance. When asked how it works, none of the engineers can tell you nor can their supervisors because they have been doing the same thing for so long that they forgot what the process is for. So it’s not entirely ridiculous for it to become a religion like the Mechanicus.

I hope the 4Chin leak is legit and heads, hands and torsos roll.

I can't help but imagine a sect of tech-priests who look at the technological marvels of the Golden Age of Technology and how Mechanicus only knows pieces of it and quickly conclude that since humanity used to be so much more advanced, chances are they aren't going to invent anything new anyway.

one very similar problem that often happens is as the people who built a company/organization leave for whatever reason the people who now run it probably don't understand why things run the way they do so they either stay lockstep with policy even after it's obsolete or they break a working system with their "improvements"

I'm surprised that those Servo Skulls that are bolted on some of the Adeptus Mechanicus members are not used as Databases on how to maintain most systems, much like how we would find a RU-vid Video on how to repair something.

I kind of think the problem in 40k is that the tech worth understanding is so advanced and complex that human minds can't comprehend it. STC templates are basically instructions for idiots. The Admech crams their brains full of technology to even have a hope of comprehending some of this stuff. It's all been designed by AIs that dwarf human intellect. So you take an STC template and build the thing it makes...and you still have NO IDEA how it works. All that said, the Admech has to understand some technologies, but why try and build a better rocket based on the understanding of rocketry that you have, when you could use this STC template and make a rocket that goes 50x faster, has 200x the range and explodes for 40x the damage? The gulf is so wide between what you could create through innovation and what you could create by following an STC that it's pointless to even try - the ancient's grasp of technology overshadows everything.

In context it is important to remember that Imperium knows how to build the machines that build machines. But not necessarily in all fields how those machines work. Like you can build factory that makes CPUs based on design you have on hand, but you have no idea how those CPUs work or how can you design a new one... Could realistically already happen. The photomasks used could already be so complex that we could not recreate them anymore. Delete all current and old designs, and eh can make more, but can't figure out what is actually there.

I'm so impressed that you applied the Peter to the WarHammer. Love it. Vraks is the perfect manifestation that had it's inevitable outcome.

The Last Chancers are full of citizens who just wanted to know how their alarm clock works.

Let's not forget about the excelleration of incompetence; failing upwards

Funny how most great things or nations are born as Aristocracies, be it because of their military power or because the person that started the success(be it by war or otherwise) has garnered his offspring enough prestige or resources by his victory to give them a leg up to the point where they can take a throne and entrench it more.

4:40 The Galileo imprisonment myth reaches far and wide I see lol

Arch I believe you are mistaken about Galileo there. He wasn’t imprisoned for promoting heliocentrism, which the church had already supported and accepted under Copernicus. It was his flagrant and unfounded insults levied against the papacy that got him in trouble.

So we just need an immortal techpriest, with numerous minds in unison, who has worked with Big E to help push the Imperium foward.

new week, new arch video, just when I get home from getting this stent removed (and was in a bad mood, this brightens it.)

The one thing you forgot to mention is that even if a rebelling world wasn’t immediately stamped out by the imperium it will be torn apart by the other horrors of the galaxy that the empire was defended it against. Because it would now be seen as easy pickings.

This is 100% an endorsement of Heinleins societal model depicted in Starship troopers. I approve.

The Turian Hierarchy/Empire tries to combat The Peter Principle by trying to carefully promote people, not just simply keep people going up the ladder recklessly.

I was in some company with the reverse Peter principle. We elevate an incompetent, until he become, acceptable ;)

Arch, do you consider the Empire to be a (dystopian) representation of the managerial state?

It's worth noting that the Peter Principle is largely responsible for why Governments as a whole tend to eventually crumble. Businesses, even if they provide important goods and services, are not strictly necessary for society to function. If one dies, it's a minor inconvenience in the grand scheme of society. Businesses can easily be replaced by the people whenever one fails. Government? The whole point is that it stays for as long as possible. Government is the bedrock society can grow from, and it is important for that government to recognize its role as nothing more than a stabilizing force. When Government tries to intervene in anything, it's inevitable for that program to become infested with people who have no idea what they're doing. In the context of the Imperium, they have resorted to mass authoritarianism as a response to chaos. It's easy to see why they'd do that since chaos is scary, but the more efficient option is to just roll with the punches. Accept that chaos will take innocent life, and use that as motivation to find a way to ride the tides of chaos safely.

Then Big Papa Ultrasmurf and THAT guy appeared... 5:15 - Trazyn the Infinite put it best in the factions trailer of Battlefleet Gothic: Armada 2. 13:23 - As a certain politician turned emperor in a different universe would put it, all who have power fear losing it. Kakistocracy...sounds like where the US and the UK is heading towards, if not there already. Ah yes, the bigger the smile, the sharper the knife or if it goes right, take all the credit, if it goes badly, find someone to blame.

15:00 For further examples: The antonym to Symphony is Kakophony. Incessant chaotic noise with no rhyme or reason that only gives you a headache and drives you mad.

Slight correction on the Galileo thing, since the story is very apt for the mechanicus. The church had no issues with his ideas for the most part. They were disgruntled at his lack of mathematical proof to back up his findings, but they no only let him go around trying to convince people of his idea, he was even allowed to debate many high-ranking priests on the topic until he eventually worked his way up to debating a man called Maffeo Barberini. More commonly known at the time as pope Urban VIII. Galileo was given audience with the motherfucking POPE and during their debate had the mother of all reddit moments by telling the pope that he's reading the bible wrong. Galileo Galilei, in his infinite tact, told the head of the catholic faith that he doesn't know the bible. In his own house. In the vatican. That's the part many people omit from the story - Galileo was imprisoned for heresy (and then had the sentence downgraded to life in gay baby jail, namely house arrest), not for his ideas, but because he insulted the pope to his face.

The Peter Principle is further supported by what we call "Wegloben" in Germany: When you want to get rid of someone but save face, you will transfer or most likely promote him or her out of your section with the highest praise, medals and tinsel. Just be rid of that someone - or sometimes to be rid of a rival. Either it is an obstacle that is now "somebody else's problem". Sometimes that comes back to haunt you as of course now that person is doing damage on a higher level - above you.

Great content as always. But as a history enthusiast, I need to comment about Galileo. Arch is wrong (or rather repeating an old anti-Catholic myth) on two points. - Galileo was not imprisoned and was not treated badly. His sentence was house arrest understood as a ban on leaving the Papal State, so something like having his passport taken away. He did it later anyway and no one punished him. -There were several reasons for the trial (it really was complicated and to this day disputed matter), what probably angered the church the most was that he publicly expressed an opinion that the heliocentric theory should result in a different understanding of the Holy Scripture. So it was not really the priests who poked their nose into science, but the scientist into theology (and the trial was mostly a scientific conference, at least for the standards of its time). The myth of Galileo's trial itself is more extensive, but that's all about Arch's statement.

4:25 you have a high schoolers understanding of Galileo's situation with the church.

Great video

My son says if you critique something even harshly with something you follow it means you really love it .

Ironically there is an example of this within the books of our Favorite Hero of the Imperium and the Imperium guard! Cain got stuck behind enemy (ork) lines and did run into a rather more scientific rather than religious driven tech priest who was good at her job. Yet was kept demoted in the lower ranks. Only through her adventure with our dashing hero, success in stopping the orks... And the 'slight' incident involving the discovery of a very important artifact that the Inquisition was very interested in... Did she get her promotions... And not by the Mechanics... But by the inquisition. So that does make more sense than you might think for our cog boys and girls.

Seeing Arch do a regular kind of video is like a lighthouse with all the craziness going on

Hmm, i never thought about it but . . Apply the Peter Principle to MLP:FIM. What does that say about Celestia, Luna and Discord? Probably also Cadence and Twilight?

For once i would say your point of view is a little dramatic, institution like the Astra Militarum still have pretty good officiers as the weak and incompetent get killed in action because of their own failures in a form of natural selection of the fittest, same thing for the Inquisition and diverse officios, the Schola Progenium seems to do a pretty good job at raising the Imperium intelligence departments and special forces. I do agree with your point for the Mechanicus and Adeptus Administratum though however, i would like to raise the point that in many case, in the Administratum people enter at the bottom and get to higher and higher position up until they become incompetent but the base level should remain roughly the same and if the degradation through the ranks is consistent they their should be a stagnation of skill level and not much of a degradation. Moreover nothing forbid someone naturally gifted to get in the Administratum and rise through the ranks either

Gatekeep lads, or lose what you love.

Genius video - it gives such a bright retrospect of our world and answers many questions such as "is AI going to replace jobs". I have long-term observations of the companies I worked for and I can agree on 100% that the most incompetent people are always promoted and on the top and am not saying that from hate because I really don't care about companies which I do not own myself! If you look closely in our modern worlds since year 2000 onwards we don't have much innovation just some improvments in technology but in social retrospect the people are getting poorer and with less avarage IQ - just no intelligent people to operate complex AI systems in the near future!

Came for the 40k lore stayed for the lessons and 40k lore lol. Some serious wisdoms and knowledge here.

indeed the incompetence has become a new standard of competency

LOVE YOUR VIDS MAN

I was promoted to director of my division. I gave it up after 6 months and acquired a position as a principle, which is the same status as a director, but is only technical. Did very well. And yes, i know this is rare, because you have to admit that you can't do the job you were given in order to do the job you're good at. I've always called this process "graying out".

Has anyone noticed that this guy kind of sounds like Narc, the guy that covers Ashes of Creation development/news

Not one mention of the warp squirrel! I don't know why; but I am very impressed. lol

Nice video !

The Emperor sees all. We hold, brothers

Friday night with Arch!

Dysgenics and the inevitability of the competency crisis. Two of Warhammer 40k's most insidious and inconspicuous horrors.

20:58 The imperium doesn't need the Emperor back. It needs Malcador, to overhaul all the beaurocracy.

I was always under the impression that local technological improvement isn't rare, but its almost always just a minor improvement over the Imperial baseline and rarely travels outside of that world.

I do love these videos were it's not directly about the lore but it's about the understanding why the universe is how it is.

Damn… Bloody RU-vid has been on a long run of not giving me any notifications for new vids from your channel for a long time now🤔 So now I have a long backlog to watch 😅

Arch, I can't begin to express how much I would LOVE to see a video from you just talking about the gradual degradation and collapse of the Roman Empire in the West.😁

There is one other reason why technology may degrade - stupid regulations pushed by fashionable superstitions. That's what we have nowadays, in 3K, with all that battery loaded cars that are less officient than Ford Model T ever was.

It’s what I never understood about the system of business we have. Just because you know how a machine you’re operating works and can repair it does not mean you know the business expenses of running those machines across a franchise works and how to manage it all. But that’s what promotions turn into. You know how to work with your hands so we’ll stick you behind a desk and force you to use everything but your hands.

23:54 The Imperium needs an entire branch of the Inquisition devoted solely to rooting this out and purging it. Purging all corruption, all entrenched incompitance, etc. Not sure what to call it though. The Ordo Politicus?

Another way i have heard it put: "rise to the level of their incompetence" keep getting shoved up out of someone's hair til they are too inept to shove up further

Ey Arch. There was a "mandatory Arch Warning" on Arbitratorians last Video. You should thank him for the free publicity :)

Arch low key giving a lecture on our own future to a bunch of people sitting watching a RU-vid video about a fictional universe.

I could have sworn Arch already did a video on this topic.

love the vod and all the reasoning behind it but i have my uno revers card right here its called Belisarius Cawl

My Armour is Contempt My Shield is Disgust My Sword is Hatred In the Emperor's Name, let none survive!

Ah, some of my favourite semi-obscure social topics wrapped into a 40k lore explanation. If I might only add to the topic of "aristocracy", ever wondered where the word "noble" comes from? "The one with knowledge"

The problem with the Peter Principle is that it assumes good intentions, and completely ignores a factor that is always present in highly hierarchical bureaucratic institutions: malice. It's in such institutions that people with the mentality of a career politician thrive, and these people do not have good intentions in mind. Whether it's for political reasons, or purely for personal gain, they will do anything to get into position of power, and abuse that power. And to get it, they will constantly sabotage anyone that opposes them, actively try to get in their superior's good graces, and promote people that are less competent than themselves but are absolutely loyal. Once these people get what they wanted, the institutions they are in charge of start to collapse, causing suffering to everyone involved. Just like we've seen it happen with our once beloved game and movie companies.

I got more formal training as a cashier at Walmart then I did as a department manager at the same store

Looks at nowadays, with tick tock, tide pod eating challenges: oh, I totally can see how it can happen

Arch. If is it possible. Can you make video of how bodyarmor is made? Both for normal soldiers and space marines??

If you look at all human history stagnation is the norm. The first farming was done 100,000 years ago. There were many years of no advancement and numerous cases of knowledge being lost.

Is the Sabbat world crusade in Production or was it dropped

Mechanicus Tech Priest (find an intact STC that's literally irreplaceable) Same Tech Priest (soaks STC in holy oil causing it to fail) Same Priest again "Perhaps if i pray to it then it will work again"

Technology decays in the dark. And in the 40K universe, it is so very dark. Some people even call it GRIM dark... ^-^

I argue that since both parties are totalitarian states and their only trading partners are each other. There is no way of finding the right balance of trade. Both sides may take turns one upping each other or underestimating their own needs. There needs to be competing firms not just two organisms feeding off each other until they run out of resources so collapse is inevitable it's a matter of when not if unless new resources are constantly discovered to replenish its stocks. But that requires an eternal contract and no chance of changing demands.

So in order to save the imperium from its death spiral Guilliman and Cawl had to become a thing that exists? And even they have long odds of saving this slowly cooking goose? Grimdark indeed.

I have it! Think about it Stc's are known to also assemble things, what if the programming of it is so archaic that it's hard to interact with it. Sure you may take apart a clock and understand it, but to get a Stc to produce it, requires a archaic logic that is hard to interface with.

While I initially and theoretically agree with the Peter Principle, after thinking about how it works and all of the companies I've worked for in my career, I'm not so sure. The principle has one glaring weakness in that it assumes you can advance within an organization. In almost all production and engineering companies I've worked for over a LONG career now, there's been no place to be promoted to, even when you do a good job. Also, these companies seem to like filling any holes in the structure with people from outside, rather than shuffle people around. Not sure how this fits into 40K, but is something that should probably be appended to the analysis.

You'd think the Mechanicus would understand entropy.

Dear Arch have been trying to find a way to contact you about a lore project that myself and a friend have been working on since before 10th edition came-out

Points to Cawl casually creating new Space Marines, Anti Grav tech, and upgrading every weapon and armor that a space marine uses. Add in that hes basically the fabriactor general now, i doubt there will be regression from current time line onwards

Makes one wonder how did the Imperium get to those heights and what changed to make them unreachable.

In a more shorter version. Because the plot demands it. Still an interesting idea non the less.

Just listening to the introduction, I'm wondering if the mechanicus has been infiltrated by Nurgle, grandfather of stagnation.

"So long as the mutants known as the 'Adeptus Mechanicus' make things as described in blueprints and STCs, I can tolerate their existence. But if they mess up *once,* I'll crack open whatever Forge World the defective product or products came from, and leave the survivors to die." - Warmaster Alexander "Ironside" Hammond, from an alternate 40k timeline

Q looks a lot like the icon of chaos with a few / removed.

One mistake Arch. Galliei was not persecuted simply for heliocentrism, he was persecuted because he was a filthy hermetic heretic, a would be alchemist.

Interestingly I’m writing a book and I’ve got this kingdom ruled by a lich emperor. Would having an immortal monarch at the top solve this problem or just mitigate it? His mind is separate from a body or brain. Thus no mental deterioration as long as he can devout enough people to keep himself going. He also needs to maintain a healthy Beaurocracy and conquest rate to maintain a steady supply of sacrifices or as he calls them dinner. Thus the transition into an empire Any thoughts?

inbefore the degradation eventually means 40k is a prequel to warhammer in 100k years. XD

2:32 yes But it takes a very very long time

I had to check this was still a w40k video.. it relates so well to current affairs

Didnt you already do this vid?

Do a guardsmen rising through the ranks …. Please and thank you 🙏

I don't think the Peter Principle is accumulative across generations as you suggest. Since regular humans don't live forever in 40k, the incompetent individual holding position X will eventually die and be replaced by someone else. So it does not follow that 10k years would make the Peter Principle apply any more than it would after 20 or so years.