In this video I will give my explanation for the meaning behind the strange fealty oath Jojen and Meera swear to Bran at the Harvest festival when he first meets them in A Clash of Kings. #asoiaf #jojenreed #Meerareed #iceandfire
Earth and water = Children of the Forest (and squishers!) Bronze and iron = First Men and Andals Ice and fire = Others and Dragons Beginning time, middle time, end time... from myth to history back to myth again... I don't disagree about the allegorical interpretation of the phrase as being essentially a poetic way to say "forever," but I do think this oath is literally based on the original peace treaty between the First Men and the Children of the Forest
That is a very good call that would fit nicely with all of this. Howland could have gotten the wording from the green men directly. They would remember and that would be a perfect paper trail for how the Reeds know such an old thing.
Howland could talk to trees,and weave WORDS and make castles appear and disappear (like maybe the Tower of Joy?) "Weave words" like convince someone of things like Ned besting Arthur Dayne,but Ned saying that Dayne would've killed him if not for Howland Reed? Makes me wonder how much Howland manipulated what happened at the Tower of Joy.
They spoke the oath together in the first part. Then she swears by the metals, because those are the tools of her craft: weapons and hunting. Jojen swears by earth and water because those are the tools of his magic. I see it as them pledging their capabilities to him as their lord
Great analysis, but my favorite part of this is that Martin is doing a bit of slight of hand. He is making us pay attention to the nuance while he just told us that for some strange reason, Meera Reed is her father’s heir while her brother is standing right next to her.
The oath is based on the original oath from the pact. Jojen being magic represents the children of the forest, swearing by earth and water (the children’s power), and Meera the warrior represents the first men, swearing by bronze and iron (the first men’s power), then in the original pact both sides together swore on ice and fire. My thinking is this is just to show/highlight that the Reeds have always and continue to practice and honor the original magic nature good vibes vs the newer “old gods” traditional oath of fealty which like you said is all designed to propagate blood magic
I like the take. It makes sense. Can't remember at the moment where I first heard it, but I've liked the idea the Reed oath is referencing previous resolutions to major conflicts. Or Pacts. Bronze and Iron, a peaceful resolution between Andals and First Men for example. I think it works ok with your idea of the cycle. Sort of nests it in the story. There's also a sort of life, conflict, and death inherent in the pairs. Which, perhaps oddly, reminds me of the three headed god. That the Reeds are pledged this oath to the Starks I find much more interesting. To me it doesn't sound like something that would be exchanged by First Men. Perhaps CotF and First Men, but not something a human would say to a human.
That is an interesting take, the conflict of ice and fire is obviously coming. The conflict of Bronze and Iron could be as you said Andals and First Men or just wars of men in general. The Earth and water could reference older wars with the COTF but also the formation of the earth could be looked at as a conflict of earth and water battling for control as well. All of that fits pretty well to me
Earth and water is probably alluding to a Green Men-Squisher conflict that appears to stretch across a lot of known Planetos, which looks like a callback to the Tuf Voyaging story Guardians.
It's kind of neat that Jojen swears by earth and water and helps Bran magically while Meera swears by bronze and iron and helps by hunting and fighting.
The Reeds' oath seems very ancient, older I would think, than the Conquest. That would preclude the "Fire" from being a reference to dragons or Targaryens (as some posters seem to think). It is possible that it means R'hllor, or to Fire as a force in itself; or the Fimbulwinter/Ragnarok combo you sugeest.
An idea I keep coming back to is that it must be significant that Rickard and Brandon (i.e. the lord of Winterfell and the heir to Winterfell) died at the same time. I think that not only has a great deal of knowledge been lost, some has been lost as recently as Ned becoming lord of Winterfell. Maybe Rickard would have known the significance of the oath.
Haha it was perfect timing. The next video I was going to do really needed a bit more time in the brain to get the flow just right and suddenly this baby popped up fully formed. So I shifted to this one first and I was able to give myself some more time for the next topic
You da man bro!! Pardon my ill-found lazy speculation based on no evidence here, in one of your prior videos you talked about leaf having several different hidden identities over the Years.... is there any chance that Leaf is actually Howlan reed?!
thanks! and haha Idk that I could buy Howland being Leaf or even a child of the forest himself, I think it is more likely they are possibly descended from a mix long ago as crannogmen or they might actually just talk to the COTF in the neck still. Especially Howland himself who is said to be able to talk to trees... Seems like COTF magic to me, but I think he is a human who practices that magic
Howland Reed is married to Ashara Dayne. Meera was the baby that she supposedly lost. Ned saved the Daynes from Robert who hated the Targaryens and sympathizers. That's why they love him.
earth and water = the natural world bronze and iron = all that is man-made ice and fire = magic/the metaphysical it’s essentially swearing by all that is, all the layers/realms of existence. (at least, that’s how i interpret it)
In the vast majority of places people didn't agree to or adopt feudalism at all, family. They were outgunned, pure and simple. The royalty and aristocracy may have, but most didn't. Especially in the beginning.
I think the oath the Reed's swear dates back to The Pact. I also think The Pact was what created the White Walkers, not what ended them. Bloodstone Emperor was waging war on everyone which caused First Men to unite with COTF to create White Walkers in order to fight the Bloodstone Emperor.
Said the boy in green His sister said They finished together I like your theory, I think these add another layer to it through symbolism. Perhaps connecting to the main magic systems.
I think you're adopting too much social contract theory in your analysis of historical 'systems' or modes of production like feudalism. This isn't something people sit down and set up, these political orders emerge organically in tandem with the development of the economic forces and economic relations, or class relations. Feudalism in Europe emerged thru a process of conflict between antagonistic social orders, the Roman slave-based society against Celtic and Germanic tribal societies, with the latter becoming the basis upon which feudalism eventually developed. Between the fall of the western Roman empire and the first true feudal states was a period of 400-500 years of transition and the ultimate order was decided by force rather than some kind of contract being drawn up. I think the same is clearly true of ASOIAF - take Dany's slave revolt as an example, the slaves are overthrowing an old system they aren't implimenting some preconceived blueprint, and assumedly if the rebellion is eventually successful in ending slavery in Essos the new order will have to evolve organically out of the power structure established by the freedmen in the course of their war against the slavers. This is how class struggle becomes the motor force of historical development and change, each new mode of production brings new class dynamics and their own specific set of contradictions, with feudalism eventually giving rise to a mercantile trader class who's power is based in capital rather than landed wealth, and that eventually caused conflict for control of political power when the merchant class became strong enough to challenge the old system of noble authority. A character like Petyr Baelish would be a good metaphor for the merchant class who eventually evolved into the capitalist class proper. Feudalism became economically stale at the same time the that capitalist wealth exploded, the division of labour became more complex and the forces of production could no longer be constrained within feudal economic laws based largely on a society of agrarian subsistence farmers.
Ok idk where i am in this playlist buuut i dont think john is aziro ahigh or what ever i think its dany andif we take this whole the world beed to be uncorporated what of azzora whatever need to sacrifice themselfs instead of thier wife to fox everything cus i think dany dies to kill the wall
People don’t realize that feudal contests were voluntary. They act like it was basically slavery, or serfdom, but it wasn’t. Even serfdom is stretching it. They willingly made contests to serve as such.
A lot of peoples ideas about ice and fire is based on assumption. Like the assumption of Jon's heritage. I am a 100% certain that Jon is in fact Neds son. Martin is a master of saying one thing, insinuation something else, but it is in fact either the first thing or a third thing. I just want Howland Reed to join the story. If he doesn't show up in winds of winter i'll be very disappointed. And if he shows up only to be killed by someone like Euron i will be even more disappointed.
@@YarPirates-vy7iv So you think he's just gonna be Ghost? Could be. But i think it's pretty clear that Melisandra is behind it and i think she'll sacrifice Shireen to bring him back. She might even throw Ghost in the fire too making them merge completely.
@@basquat76 I guess that might happen, but I don't think it'll be very good. I think maybe he'll have a bit of a Ghost cameo or something, but bringing him back to...what, lead the fight against the others? And everyone follows him because he came back from the dead? There are all ready two of those stories, Beric and Lady Stoneheart, who lead just bc because they're sorta messiahs. That's exactly what Jon didn't do. He tried to do what the right thing was even in face of strong opposition and died for it. Would be better if his death inspired others to make the right decisions and band together, not make them into zombie ish followers who will do what he says. I think this is a better story for him, it'd be cheapened otherwise, and it's not necessary. However I guess there could be ways to bring him back and still give him a meaningful role, but I just don't really know why or how.
@@YarPirates-vy7iv Well what is the right decision? The story hasn't been revealed to us yet and Jon is in the story for a reason. All the Starks are there for a reason, we just don't see it yet. Martin always sets it up with a previous story, like Beric and Stoneheart leads to Jon.
@YarPirates-vy7iv here is my theory, Jon never died. Mortally wounded,yes. But not dead. I agree that we already have Beric and Stoneheart coming back from the dead, 1 more would be over doing it. I believe he is wounded terribly, and while Melisandre works frantically to save his ass, Tormund and the other chieftains put the smack down on Bowen Marsh&company
